Highlander mid-season-five 2-parter

[sholio]

Wow. That was seriously epic. This show! *catches breath*

And the Horsemen of the Apocalypse thing ... did not see that coming AT ALL. Well, okay, having seen those clips of barbarian!Methos did spoil me for that twist once the episode got underway (as soon as Cassandra brought up the horsemen, my reaction was "HOSHIT METHOS"), but yeah ... again with managing to remain unspoiled for what is probably one of the easiest spoilers to run across in the whole fandom. *g*

I'm still processing a lot of it. I love, as always, how complicated the show makes things -- it's not as simple as Methos going along with Kronos & co. out of fear, or because they're his friends, or because he's tempted by what they're offering, but perhaps a little of all three, in different measures depending on the moment. I liked seeing the less pleasant side of Duncan's moral absolutism: that it's both a strength and a failing of his. I liked the recognition that the Bronze Age Eurasian world was rough and cruel and brutal (Cassandra's fate -- captured, raped, her people killed -- was the fate of a lot of women in her time), but also that the same kind of cruelty and brutality still exists today (the Vietnam comparison -- that whole conversation with Joe and Duncan -- was brilliant).

I suspect that when I dive into the fanworks for this show that I'm going to find a lot of stories in which Methos is written as a guilt-ridden woobie, and, I don't know, I guess one of the things I really love about him is that he's not? I don't get the impression that he's sitting around being eaten up with guilt for those days. He just doesn't want to do it again; like he says at one point, it was a phase he went through, and now he's moved on. Which is not to say that he doesn't have regrets or guilt at all -- obviously he does for specific things (like what happened to Cassandra). But, again, not to the consuming level, and I don't think he hates himself for it or anything.

I don't think anything in these episodes changed my general impressions of Methos that I was talking about in the last post, but it added a lot of depth and complexity.

So, yeah ... still pondering the character stuff in the episodes, still kind of blown away by the action and the epic scope.

Comments

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

YAY! :D

I confess to refreshing my friendslist just one more time just to see whether you'd posted about these episodes yet. ;)

These are two very epic episodes. :) Yes yes yes. And yes, it's extremely complicated. I LOVE that you got to see it unspoiled though. :)

LOL about the fanfic - it's been long enough for me that I honestly don't remember whether I ran into that much or not. But I agree - if there's one thing Methos is not, it's a woobie. ;)

[sholio]

I'm delighted to have seen it unspoiled! :D Kind of amazed (like with Richie's Immortality) but delighted.

And yeah, just the scope of these episodes, the epic feeling -- I really love how this show is equally capable of doing tight, small-focus character episodes, or sweeping epic ones. In retrospect, I think my only complaint is that I wish the Horsemen's apocalypse plan had been a little splashier ... this is like the apocalypse on a budget! -- but the episode had more than enough awesome to make up for it.

[gnine.livejournal.com]

"I killed, but I didn't just kill 50, I didn't kill a hundred, I killed a thousand, I killed TEN THOUSAND!!"

Yay, I was waiting to comment on the last post till you saw these! One of the things you said about Methos, that he IS kind of a NOT NICE person, but after these eps, it's that he once was so soooo much worse, he HAS gotten better and he doesn't really want to go back. He doesn't feel guilt ridden or anything, but he likes himself better now...and I think he does like that Duncan tends to drag him to the not-evil leanings of his nature.

And when I mentioned earlier that the first ep I ever saw was the second part of a two parter...yeah, it was this one. I have...interesting luck when it comes to first eps of shows...^_-

[sholio]

Heh, that must have been some introduction to the series! No wonder you ended up hooked; I don't think you would have had much choice at that point. :D

And yeah, "not very nice, but used to be a whole lot worse" is a good way to describe Methos. *g* I'm still trying to get a handle on how I view him as a character, and how I feel about him -- I mean, I know I really like him as a character, but I'm not so sure about what I think of him as someone I might like to, say, get inside his head in fanfic. I think you're right, though, that he likes who he is now a lot better than who he was then, and doesn't want to be that person anymore. I don't think he was unhappy being that person at the time -- it's not just an excuse that it was a different era, and also, I think that an Immortal would have been even more powerful in a Bronze Age world than in a medieval world; it must have felt like being a god, and who wouldn't be easily caught up in that? But he's moved on, the world's moved on, and he obviously prefers who he is now.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah - more even than being like a god; with the religions of those times, Immortals pretty much *were* gods, or close enough. Especially if you first came back in a fairly isolated community, and there weren't any other Immortals about to tell you what the deal was (if there even was a deal then - do they actually mention the Game anytime during the Horsemen flashbacks? Is it possible that actually came later?) It would go to anyone's head...

[trobadora]

I think you're right, though, that he likes who he is now a lot better than who he was then, and doesn't want to be that person anymore.

Yes! It's the reason he tends to run away from fights if he can, I think. He could still be a killer, but he doesn't want to be.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I suspect that when I dive into the fanworks for this show that I'm going to find a lot of stories in which Methos is written as a guilt-ridden woobie

There isn't, in fact, a lot of guilt-ridden Methos. There is instead a lot of Duncan being a judgmental bastard and Methos being a poor misunderstood woobie and Cassandra being vengeful/insane and getting beheaded for her inability to just get over it already. (I did mention HL fandom is occasionally misogynistic, right?) OTOH, there is some really well-written post-Horsemen fic that treats everyone fairly and stays in character.

I don't get the impression that he's sitting around being eaten up with guilt for those days. He just doesn't want to do it again; like he says at one point, it was a phase he went through, and now he's moved on.

Yes, exactly. Being eaten up with guilt forever and ever is just exhausting. He knows better now and doesn't want to be that monster again, and feels that's enough for him--and hopes that'll be enough for Duncan too. (And I think Methos would be the first to understand it might never be enough for Cassandra.)

[sholio]

There is instead a lot of Duncan being a judgmental bastard and Methos being a poor misunderstood woobie and Cassandra being vengeful/insane and getting beheaded for her inability to just get over it already.

HAHAHAHA ... color me unsurprised. trobadora had mentioned earlier that the HL fandom had its equivalent of SGA's post-Trinity fic ... I think I just found out where in the series that happens. (Actually, I think every fandom has something along those lines. I know that's been true of my last few fandoms ...)

He knows better now and doesn't want to be that monster again, and feels that's enough for him--and hopes that'll be enough for Duncan too.

Yeah ... like I said in the comment above, I'm still working out how I feel about Methos and what I think of him, but this is true -- he prefers who he is now, and doesn't want to go back. I don't think he was unhappy being who he was then; I can see how an Immortal in a Bronze Age world would be even more powerful in comparison to everyone else than an Immortal in a medieval world or Roman world -- to the point that I can see how someone could easily get caught up in that, and think of himself as a sort of minor god. But the world's changed; he's changed.

It's also very interesting to look back at "Valkyrie" after watching these episodes, since the choice Methos makes at the end -- killing a friend (Silas) to save Cassandra -- is quite similar to Duncan's killing Ingrid at the end of Valkyrie.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

trobadora had mentioned earlier that the HL fandom had its equivalent of SGA's post-Trinity fic ... I think I just found out where in the series that happens.

Hee! Yeah, pretty much! I mean, if your tastes lean that way there's some really enjoyable id-fic.

Yes, much of my fondness for "The Valkyrie", aside from the awesome guest stars, is that it's all build-up for the Horsemen eps. Silas, for all his lack of concern for regular human beings, doesn't seem to have a malicious bone in his body--I can see why Methos would like him so much. But Silas didn't seem capable of change, and Ingrid couldn't either, couldn't stop herself from killing, and it's really this inability to change that seals their fate. Duncan, for all that he's been doing a lot of killing lately, isn't stuck--we've discussed his adaptability, how he learns all the things, and not just technology, but new worldviews. He can choose not to kill.

Which is what he does at the end, with Cassandra and Methos. Duncan is confronted once again with a friend who seems to have gone dark-side. But when Cassandra has Methos at her feet, axe in hand, he cries out, "I want him to live!" By asking for Methos' life--demanding it, practically--Duncan was saying that he's accepted Methos' past and accepted that he's changed. Judge and jury once more, but not executioner.

I've seen some arguments that Duncan had no right to take Cassandra's vengeance from her, but it's not like he could have stopped her if she really wanted Methos dead. And I highly doubt Duncan would have come after Cassandra if she had killed Methos.

[trobadora]

HAHAHAHA ... color me unsurprised. trobadora had mentioned earlier that the HL fandom had its equivalent of SGA's post-Trinity fic ... I think I just found out where in the series that happens.

Yes, you did! Oh, the post-R6:8 fallout! Which has nothing in common with anything you'll ever see on the show! The Methos apologists! Did you know poor widdle Methos never was responsible for any bad thing he did? He was being FORCED to do it for a thousand years! *headdesk*

The answer is yes. Oh, yes.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hee - those are the spoilerific eps, the ones everyone was not-so-subtle eluding to (well, it could've been others - but I bet it was these ^^)

...and I can recite pretty much the entire car-confrontation verbatim. Still. Eheheh. I really love how Duncan and Methos play off each other, how their different moralities clash, though it's painful, too...

(...incidentally when I mentioned that the writers didn't necessarily have things planned out - especially in regard to Methos - I was just watching a recent set of Q&A with Peter Wingfield, in which he at least had no idea about the Horseman thing until that ep. After those eps he said it rather colored how he played the char, for obvious reasons!)

Re: The answer is yes. Oh, yes.

[sholio]

I'm still breathless -- these episodes were amazing! And I can certainly see why Methos took fandom by storm. *g* It's interesting to discover that he seems to be cast a lot more in the mold of the reformed-villain archetype that I originally took him for, before "meeting" him as a character. Heh. Though I think it was mostly the Horsemen flashbacks that made me originally think so ...

I suspect I'm past the majorly spoilery Methos stuff now ... maybe it's safe to come out from under flock. *g*

heheheheh, poor Peter Wingfield; that must have thrown him for a bit of a loop, not to mention the fandom! I do think you're right that trying to make sense of the whole character arc is probably DOOMED since even the writers didn't really have a coherent plan for him. (Wasn't it you who told me that he was originally supposed to only be in one or two episodes and then die? So Methos in "Methos" was necessarily a bit of a different character, as they hadn't figured out anything long-term to do with him yet ...)

I really love how Duncan and Methos play off each other, how their different moralities clash, though it's painful, too...

Yeah; I think this show in general is aces at doing moral dilemmas in a believable way that's fair to all sides. The characters' moral debates and their clashes about how to behave in a given situation are pretty near the top of my (very long!) list of favorite things about the show. It really does hurt a lot of the time, though.

Re: The answer is yes. Oh, yes.

[liz-mo.livejournal.com]

I am not sure whether it was before or after the horsemen eps were filmed when Peter Wingfield supposedly said something along the lines of "What I like most about Methos (as a character) is that he can be read in the way that everything he has done up to now was to get Duncan to a point where he can kill him".

Re: The answer is yes. Oh, yes.

[sheron]

...and I can recite pretty much the entire car-confrontation verbatim. Still.

Yes. Oh yes.

Re: The answer is yes. Oh, yes.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

*laughs* In Philly at the PWFC roadtrip Peter showed that clip and the entire room recited it as the vid played right along with it. Peter thought that was a hoot that we all knew the words.

[sheron]

Oh how I love the epic-ness. <3

I like that you've finally seen this side of Methos, so it doesn't feel like we're all hiding some big bad secret. NOt that the story ends here, but at least this major milestone is something we can talk about now :)

You know, I've never really thought too much about whether Methos is guild ridden about the things he's done, mostly because I've assumed that it having been oh so many years ago, he's had to move on. What I really like however, is that he makes his choices in this episode -- he may or may not have believed that Duncan could kill Kronos, but he took a risk and he refused to kill Cassandra despite how much easier it would have been. I love that it was a conscious choice to take the less easy road and let her live. I love that he says to Silas, "you don't know anything about me". That he's moved on from the Bronze age even though the rest of the Horsemen still dream about it.

When he's talking to Cassandra, or when he's trying to gauge Silas' loyalty he's so completely "modern" in his attitude. Whereas the rest of them are stuck in that same mentality. It's a really interesting contrast to see, for me.

I really like his, "Maybe." at the end. Did he set the whole thing up or did he fly by the seat of his pants and just hoped things worked out? In my opinion, a little bit of both.

I don't see him as some kind of a great manipulator -- but that doesn't mean he doesn't manipulate. :D

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure we can really say Cassandra's stuck in the past the way Kronos and Silas are. She's modern enough to just hire a detective agency to track down Duncan in "Prophecy," after all. It's hard to gauge her mindset since IMHO she's in complete freak-out mode in the Horsemen eps, because she really was not expecting Methos (to be alive, to have wormed his way into Duncan's life) and probably only found out recently that Kronos was still alive.

I agree that Methos isn't what Cassandra says he is, but I can hardly blame her given his current behaviour. And I gotta say, when Methos is talking about Patty Hearst and she gives him this WTF face of complete disbelieve, I kind of assume she's thinking, "Seriously? Seriously? You're trying to tell me about Stockholm syndrome?"

I totally agree with your last sentence, though. I was trolling TV Tropes (as one does) and came across a concept for villains with contingency plans, so that even when it appears they've been defeated, they've actually secretly gained a victory. Not that Methos is a villain here, but it's that kind of agile thinking that makes him so dangerous.

[sholio]

Hee! It's nice to finally know, and not have to be quite so rabidly spoiler-avoidant as I had been. I'd gotten the definite impression that there was some kind of major Thing about Methos that was going to be revealed at some point, and really did not want to know what it was beforehand. I'd actually been idly speculating that it was something to do with the origins of the Immortals, which, well, no. But still very interesting and unexpected! And I feel rather more confident about participating in Methos-related discussions now, without having to squint through my fingers for fear of having something really huge spoiled for me ... *g*

And, yeah, it's fascinating to see the contrast between Methos and the rest of the Horsemen in the modern day -- how he's gone on, learned, adapted to a very different world, but they haven't.

It does actually bother me that he manipulates his friends, even up to and including risking their lives -- I think that's one of the big hurdles to me actually liking him. (Though, yeah, in that particular case it's up in the air, whether he did it on purpose or just let events shape his response.) But on the other hand, he is who he is: a person who's survived five thousand years by not trusting any farther than he has to, not caring any more than he has to. It was interesting to see how far he'll actually go when he's pushed to the edge -- and how far he won't go. He'll join the Horsemen and help them with their plans -- then sabotage those plans behind their backs. He didn't kill Duncan at Kronos's behest (didn't even try, actually), and he wasn't able to stand by and let Silas kill Cassandra, even though the alternative was that he'd be forced to kill a friend.

[trobadora]

I really like his, "Maybe." at the end. Did he set the whole thing up or did he fly by the seat of his pants and just hoped things worked out? In my opinion, a little bit of both.

I don't see him as some kind of a great manipulator -- but that doesn't mean he doesn't manipulate. :D

I'm completely with you on that. :D

[trobadora]

OMG. This two-parter! I love it so, so much. I'd watched HL before, and enjoyed it a lot, but this was when it really hit me, and I was gone. MEEEETHOOOOOOOOSSS!!!!!!!! ♥ ♥ ♥

I love, as always, how complicated the show makes things

Yes! And I feel they did all the characters justice there, which is really why it works so fantastically well for me. And I love this show because people in it can change - and you really get to see it. It's a constant theme, and one of the best things about it. No one's locked forever into what they used to be unless they choose to.

[sholio]

*nods* That theme of rearranging your life, and changing, and becoming something new -- I love it SO MUCH, all the more because this show gives us both positive and negative examples: good people who went bad, and those who were cruel, hard or cold and learned to be otherwise. You are what you make yourself, and the show gives us a whole huge gamut of possibilities.

... And Methos is maybe winning me back. ♥

[jimandblair.livejournal.com]

heeeeeeeeeeee. I've been waiting in anticipation for you to get to these episodes. I've been biting my bottom lip, keeping comments down to an absolute minimum in case I inadvertently spoiled you. Quite often, I think that it would be really nice to be able to selectively wipe parts of your fandom memory and rewatch or reread certain things.

I remember watching this with my mam (Duncan fan) and me (Methos fan) and OMG, Methos is a BAD GUY. It was very much a black and white response on both our parts (my mam to this day is still a little superior that *her* Duncan is a good guy). But after some fairly significant pondering on my part, for me it boiled down to Methos is über complicated character and that is a lot of fun to write. When does the statute of limitation on being Death and killing and enjoying killing run out? Were they crimes when he committed them? Can you impose 20th Century culture on a Bronze Age civilisation? Or is Methos now fundamentally a new person: grown and essentially changed over time to a new person; a more dominant quickening overtook the 'original' Methos; or a synergism of many quickenings induced a personality change; can people change? et cetera… take your pick. There are fic out there.

The element of forgiveness is a really interesting aspect of the whole debacle. Frankly, I hadn’t of really liked Methos before those episodes I probably would have dropped him like a hot potato, which is an interesting observation all on its very own.

[sholio]

Hee! I'm actually quite surprised (again) that I was as unspoiled as I'd managed to remain!

Oddly, these episodes actually made me like Methos better than I had been liking him thus far in season five. I think these eps confirmed for me that, when it comes right down it, whoever and whatever he was in the past (and he did do terrible things, there's no whitewashing it) ... but he really is a good person now -- someone who won't betray a friend or let an innocent woman die.

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

Oh good, I can stop sitting on my hands! :) I've been waiting for you to see these major eps and hear all about what you thought of them. Was your jaw on the floor ? :) Now, goes to read all the comments of people who's LJ was obviously working before mine! *sobs*

[sholio]

*laughs* I can see how this would be THE spoiler for people not in the fandom -- but somehow I'd managed to escape it! I guess it helps that I really paid no attention whatsoever to Highlander stuff before starting to watch the show ...