sholio | Highlander mid-season-five 2-parter

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Highlander mid-season-five 2-parter

Wow. That was seriously epic. This show! *catches breath*

And the Horsemen of the Apocalypse thing ... did not see that coming AT ALL. Well, okay, having seen those clips of barbarian!Methos did spoil me for that twist once the episode got underway (as soon as Cassandra brought up the horsemen, my reaction was "HOSHIT METHOS"), but yeah ... again with managing to remain unspoiled for what is probably one of the easiest spoilers to run across in the whole fandom. *g*

I'm still processing a lot of it. I love, as always, how complicated the show makes things -- it's not as simple as Methos going along with Kronos & co. out of fear, or because they're his friends, or because he's tempted by what they're offering, but perhaps a little of all three, in different measures depending on the moment. I liked seeing the less pleasant side of Duncan's moral absolutism: that it's both a strength and a failing of his. I liked the recognition that the Bronze Age Eurasian world was rough and cruel and brutal (Cassandra's fate -- captured, raped, her people killed -- was the fate of a lot of women in her time), but also that the same kind of cruelty and brutality still exists today (the Vietnam comparison -- that whole conversation with Joe and Duncan -- was brilliant).

I suspect that when I dive into the fanworks for this show that I'm going to find a lot of stories in which Methos is written as a guilt-ridden woobie, and, I don't know, I guess one of the things I really love about him is that he's not? I don't get the impression that he's sitting around being eaten up with guilt for those days. He just doesn't want to do it again; like he says at one point, it was a phase he went through, and now he's moved on. Which is not to say that he doesn't have regrets or guilt at all -- obviously he does for specific things (like what happened to Cassandra). But, again, not to the consuming level, and I don't think he hates himself for it or anything.

I don't think anything in these episodes changed my general impressions of Methos that I was talking about in the last post, but it added a lot of depth and complexity.

So, yeah ... still pondering the character stuff in the episodes, still kind of blown away by the action and the epic scope.

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YAY! :D

I confess to refreshing my friendslist just one more time just to see whether you'd posted about these episodes yet. ;)

These are two very epic episodes. :) Yes yes yes. And yes, it's extremely complicated. I LOVE that you got to see it unspoiled though. :)

LOL about the fanfic - it's been long enough for me that I honestly don't remember whether I ran into that much or not. But I agree - if there's one thing Methos is not, it's a woobie. ;)

"I killed, but I didn't just kill 50, I didn't kill a hundred, I killed a thousand, I killed TEN THOUSAND!!"

Yay, I was waiting to comment on the last post till you saw these! One of the things you said about Methos, that he IS kind of a NOT NICE person, but after these eps, it's that he once was so soooo much worse, he HAS gotten better and he doesn't really want to go back. He doesn't feel guilt ridden or anything, but he likes himself better now...and I think he does like that Duncan tends to drag him to the not-evil leanings of his nature.

And when I mentioned earlier that the first ep I ever saw was the second part of a two parter...yeah, it was this one. I have...interesting luck when it comes to first eps of shows...^_-

I suspect that when I dive into the fanworks for this show that I'm going to find a lot of stories in which Methos is written as a guilt-ridden woobie

There isn't, in fact, a lot of guilt-ridden Methos. There is instead a lot of Duncan being a judgmental bastard and Methos being a poor misunderstood woobie and Cassandra being vengeful/insane and getting beheaded for her inability to just get over it already. (I did mention HL fandom is occasionally misogynistic, right?) OTOH, there is some really well-written post-Horsemen fic that treats everyone fairly and stays in character.

I don't get the impression that he's sitting around being eaten up with guilt for those days. He just doesn't want to do it again; like he says at one point, it was a phase he went through, and now he's moved on.

Yes, exactly. Being eaten up with guilt forever and ever is just exhausting. He knows better now and doesn't want to be that monster again, and feels that's enough for him--and hopes that'll be enough for Duncan too. (And I think Methos would be the first to understand it might never be enough for Cassandra.)

I'm delighted to have seen it unspoiled! :D Kind of amazed (like with Richie's Immortality) but delighted.

And yeah, just the scope of these episodes, the epic feeling -- I really love how this show is equally capable of doing tight, small-focus character episodes, or sweeping epic ones. In retrospect, I think my only complaint is that I wish the Horsemen's apocalypse plan had been a little splashier ... this is like the apocalypse on a budget! -- but the episode had more than enough awesome to make up for it.

Heh, that must have been some introduction to the series! No wonder you ended up hooked; I don't think you would have had much choice at that point. :D

And yeah, "not very nice, but used to be a whole lot worse" is a good way to describe Methos. *g* I'm still trying to get a handle on how I view him as a character, and how I feel about him -- I mean, I know I really like him as a character, but I'm not so sure about what I think of him as someone I might like to, say, get inside his head in fanfic. I think you're right, though, that he likes who he is now a lot better than who he was then, and doesn't want to be that person anymore. I don't think he was unhappy being that person at the time -- it's not just an excuse that it was a different era, and also, I think that an Immortal would have been even more powerful in a Bronze Age world than in a medieval world; it must have felt like being a god, and who wouldn't be easily caught up in that? But he's moved on, the world's moved on, and he obviously prefers who he is now.

Hee - those are the spoilerific eps, the ones everyone was not-so-subtle eluding to (well, it could've been others - but I bet it was these ^^)

...and I can recite pretty much the entire car-confrontation verbatim. Still. Eheheh. I really love how Duncan and Methos play off each other, how their different moralities clash, though it's painful, too...

(...incidentally when I mentioned that the writers didn't necessarily have things planned out - especially in regard to Methos - I was just watching a recent set of Q&A with Peter Wingfield, in which he at least had no idea about the Horseman thing until that ep. After those eps he said it rather colored how he played the char, for obvious reasons!)

There is instead a lot of Duncan being a judgmental bastard and Methos being a poor misunderstood woobie and Cassandra being vengeful/insane and getting beheaded for her inability to just get over it already.

HAHAHAHA ... color me unsurprised.

trobadora had mentioned earlier that the HL fandom had its equivalent of SGA's post-Trinity fic ... I think I just found out where in the series that happens. (Actually, I think every fandom has something along those lines. I know that's been true of my last few fandoms ...)

He knows better now and doesn't want to be that monster again, and feels that's enough for him--and hopes that'll be enough for Duncan too.

Yeah ... like I said in the comment above, I'm still working out how I feel about Methos and what I think of him, but this is true -- he prefers who he is now, and doesn't want to go back. I don't think he was unhappy being who he was then; I can see how an Immortal in a Bronze Age world would be even more powerful in comparison to everyone else than an Immortal in a medieval world or Roman world -- to the point that I can see how someone could easily get caught up in that, and think of himself as a sort of minor god. But the world's changed; he's changed.

It's also very interesting to look back at "Valkyrie" after watching these episodes, since the choice Methos makes at the end -- killing a friend (Silas) to save Cassandra -- is quite similar to Duncan's killing Ingrid at the end of Valkyrie.

Yeah - more even than being like a god; with the religions of those times, Immortals pretty much *were* gods, or close enough. Especially if you first came back in a fairly isolated community, and there weren't any other Immortals about to tell you what the deal was (if there even was a deal then - do they actually mention the Game anytime during the Horsemen flashbacks? Is it possible that actually came later?) It would go to anyone's head...

I'm still breathless -- these episodes were amazing! And I can certainly see why Methos took fandom by storm. *g* It's interesting to discover that he seems to be cast a lot more in the mold of the reformed-villain archetype that I originally took him for, before "meeting" him as a character. Heh. Though I think it was mostly the Horsemen flashbacks that made me originally think so ...

I suspect I'm past the majorly spoilery Methos stuff now ... maybe it's safe to come out from under flock. *g*

heheheheh, poor Peter Wingfield; that must have thrown him for a bit of a loop, not to mention the fandom! I do think you're right that trying to make sense of the whole character arc is probably DOOMED since even the writers didn't really have a coherent plan for him. (Wasn't it you who told me that he was originally supposed to only be in one or two episodes and then die? So Methos in "Methos" was necessarily a bit of a different character, as they hadn't figured out anything long-term to do with him yet ...)

I really love how Duncan and Methos play off each other, how their different moralities clash, though it's painful, too...

Yeah; I think this show in general is aces at doing moral dilemmas in a believable way that's fair to all sides. The characters' moral debates and their clashes about how to behave in a given situation are pretty near the top of my (very long!) list of favorite things about the show. It really does hurt a lot of the time, though.

Yeah, even aside from the theological aspects, I think an Immortal would have a lot more relative power in an era with few nation-states and limited technology, and it was also the era of the Hittites and such; Methos et al were hardly the only people doing that kind of thing, which doesn't make it right, but in that society, that culture, I can see how he could have developed along those lines and then later begun to rethink the whole "rape, pillage, kill" situation ...

And I don't think anyone mentioned the Game in the flashbacks, so perhaps that was a later development -- interesting! At the very least there must have been fewer Immortals in the world then (maybe?), and a lot fewer edged metal weapons, so it probably didn't have the shape that it's taken by modern times.

...and I can recite pretty much the entire car-confrontation verbatim. Still.

Yes. Oh yes.

Oh how I love the epic-ness. <3

I like that you've finally seen this side of Methos, so it doesn't feel like we're all hiding some big bad secret. NOt that the story ends here, but at least this major milestone is something we can talk about now :)

You know, I've never really thought too much about whether Methos is guild ridden about the things he's done, mostly because I've assumed that it having been oh so many years ago, he's had to move on. What I really like however, is that he makes his choices in this episode -- he may or may not have believed that Duncan could kill Kronos, but he took a risk and he refused to kill Cassandra despite how much easier it would have been. I love that it was a conscious choice to take the less easy road and let her live. I love that he says to Silas, "you don't know anything about me". That he's moved on from the Bronze age even though the rest of the Horsemen still dream about it.

When he's talking to Cassandra, or when he's trying to gauge Silas' loyalty he's so completely "modern" in his attitude. Whereas the rest of them are stuck in that same mentality. It's a really interesting contrast to see, for me.

I really like his, "Maybe." at the end. Did he set the whole thing up or did he fly by the seat of his pants and just hoped things worked out? In my opinion, a little bit of both.

I don't see him as some kind of a great manipulator -- but that doesn't mean he doesn't manipulate. :D

When Silas and Kronos come after Duncan, one of them says, "Just like old times..." which suggests that they've taken on other immortals in a similar fashion. However Silas stops and doesn't interfere during the fight. I've always been fascinated by that.

In fact, having four immortals band together -- instead of killing each other -- and call each other brothers, and spent a thousand years together is a pretty monumental accomplishment.

Methos says at some point about how he's never been married to an immortal, because that would be a hell of a commitment to make. "You'd have to love someone a hell of a lot to be with them for three hundred years." It's really interesting to examine that comment in light of these revelations.

I'm just fascinated by the relationship between Methos and Kronos... there's fear, but there's also so much more there.

And yes, so many angles of it are examined in the fanfic. *g*

I also have read some really wonderful fics that take into account Cassandra's point of view, so the fandom's take on the subject is not all bad at all. :)

In fact, having four immortals band together -- instead of killing each other -- and call each other brothers, and spent a thousand years together is a pretty monumental accomplishment.

Methos says at some point about how he's never been married to an immortal, because that would be a hell of a commitment to make. "You'd have to love someone a hell of a lot to be with them for three hundred years." It's really interesting to examine that comment in light of these revelations.

Oh, that's a really great point!

I love this show's complexity, because, yeah, that was one thing I really liked about the character dynamics in the episode -- it wasn't as simple as Methos being shanghai'd and dragged along with the Horsemen against his will. There were elements of that, sure ... but these were also his friends, his family, his people for a thousand years. There had to have been a part of him that just enjoyed having the band back together again. But he'd moved on, become a different person, and they hadn't.

trobadora had mentioned earlier that the HL fandom had its equivalent of SGA's post-Trinity fic ... I think I just found out where in the series that happens.

Hee! Yeah, pretty much! I mean, if your tastes lean that way there's some really enjoyable id-fic.

Yes, much of my fondness for "The Valkyrie", aside from the awesome guest stars, is that it's all build-up for the Horsemen eps. Silas, for all his lack of concern for regular human beings, doesn't seem to have a malicious bone in his body--I can see why Methos would like him so much. But Silas didn't seem capable of change, and Ingrid couldn't either, couldn't stop herself from killing, and it's really this inability to change that seals their fate. Duncan, for all that he's been doing a lot of killing lately, isn't stuck--we've discussed his adaptability, how he learns all the things, and not just technology, but new worldviews. He can choose not to kill.

Which is what he does at the end, with Cassandra and Methos. Duncan is confronted once again with a friend who seems to have gone dark-side. But when Cassandra has Methos at her feet, axe in hand, he cries out, "I want him to live!" By asking for Methos' life--demanding it, practically--Duncan was saying that he's accepted Methos' past and accepted that he's changed. Judge and jury once more, but not executioner.

I've seen some arguments that Duncan had no right to take Cassandra's vengeance from her, but it's not like he could have stopped her if she really wanted Methos dead. And I highly doubt Duncan would have come after Cassandra if she had killed Methos.

I'm not sure we can really say Cassandra's stuck in the past the way Kronos and Silas are. She's modern enough to just hire a detective agency to track down Duncan in "Prophecy," after all. It's hard to gauge her mindset since IMHO she's in complete freak-out mode in the Horsemen eps, because she really was not expecting Methos (to be alive, to have wormed his way into Duncan's life) and probably only found out recently that Kronos was still alive.

I agree that Methos isn't what Cassandra says he is, but I can hardly blame her given his current behaviour. And I gotta say, when Methos is talking about Patty Hearst and she gives him this WTF face of complete disbelieve, I kind of assume she's thinking, "Seriously? Seriously? You're trying to tell me about Stockholm syndrome?"

I totally agree with your last sentence, though. I was trolling TV Tropes (as one does) and came across a concept for villains with contingency plans, so that even when it appears they've been defeated, they've actually secretly gained a victory. Not that Methos is a villain here, but it's that kind of agile thinking that makes him so dangerous.

Edited 2011-04-06 05:13 (UTC)

Hee! It's nice to finally know, and not have to be quite so rabidly spoiler-avoidant as I had been. I'd gotten the definite impression that there was some kind of major Thing about Methos that was going to be revealed at some point, and really did not want to know what it was beforehand. I'd actually been idly speculating that it was something to do with the origins of the Immortals, which, well, no. But still very interesting and unexpected! And I feel rather more confident about participating in Methos-related discussions now, without having to squint through my fingers for fear of having something really huge spoiled for me ... *g*

And, yeah, it's fascinating to see the contrast between Methos and the rest of the Horsemen in the modern day -- how he's gone on, learned, adapted to a very different world, but they haven't.

It does actually bother me that he manipulates his friends, even up to and including risking their lives -- I think that's one of the big hurdles to me actually liking him. (Though, yeah, in that particular case it's up in the air, whether he did it on purpose or just let events shape his response.) But on the other hand, he is who he is: a person who's survived five thousand years by not trusting any farther than he has to, not caring any more than he has to. It was interesting to see how far he'll actually go when he's pushed to the edge -- and how far he won't go. He'll join the Horsemen and help them with their plans -- then sabotage those plans behind their backs. He didn't kill Duncan at Kronos's behest (didn't even try, actually), and he wasn't able to stand by and let Silas kill Cassandra, even though the alternative was that he'd be forced to kill a friend.

Yes, much of my fondness for "The Valkyrie", aside from the awesome guest stars, is that it's all build-up for the Horsemen eps.

And to some extent, the episode before it as well -- it dealt with similar themes of pacifism and violence, when it's appropriate to take up arms and when it's not. It's really fascinating to look at the group of episodes as a whole, and the way that the theme was developed throughout.

Which is what he does at the end, with Cassandra and Methos. Duncan is confronted once again with a friend who seems to have gone dark-side. But when Cassandra has Methos at her feet, axe in hand, he cries out, "I want him to live!" By asking for Methos' life--demanding it, practically--Duncan was saying that he's accepted Methos' past and accepted that he's changed. Judge and jury once more, but not executioner.

Oh, that's really interesting! I'd seen the Silas + Methos situation as an analog of Ingrid + Duncan in "The Valkyrie", but hadn't gone ahead and taken it to the next step. I'm not sure if it's a matter of accepting/forgiving Methos's past, though, so much as trusting in his future -- that he won't kill again. The reason he couldn't let Ingrid go: he didn't feel that he could trust her not to continue killing. But he does grant that trust to Methos, maybe just because he's tired of losing friends and ready to try another path this time.

Yeah, I don't really see it as taking away Cassandra's revenge either. Like you said, it's not as if he could have stopped her if she wasn't willing to be stopped. And to some extent, he was not just saving one friend but saving two: stopping Cassandra from making a choice that Duncan wished he hadn't made in the past.

One storyline I will never get tired of -- though sometimes it's done badly, and sometimes, as here, it's done well -- is the story of the vengeance seeker who nurtures their hatred through the years 'til finally they find their enemy ... except the enemy is now a changed man (or woman). What then? A:tLA had a couple of episodes with a great riff on that theme as well.

I think you're right, though, that he likes who he is now a lot better than who he was then, and doesn't want to be that person anymore.

Yes! It's the reason he tends to run away from fights if he can, I think. He could still be a killer, but he doesn't want to be.

HAHAHAHA ... color me unsurprised. trobadora had mentioned earlier that the HL fandom had its equivalent of SGA's post-Trinity fic ... I think I just found out where in the series that happens.

Yes, you did! Oh, the post-R6:8 fallout! Which has nothing in common with anything you'll ever see on the show! The Methos apologists! Did you know poor widdle Methos never was responsible for any bad thing he did? He was being FORCED to do it for a thousand years! *headdesk*

Yeah, I don't think Cassandra's stuck in the past at all; she's just been confronted with something she thought was dead and gone for millennia. No wonder it's all coming back and she's more than a little preoccupied with it!

And yes yes es on the mental agility - that's exactly how I see it.

I really like his, "Maybe." at the end. Did he set the whole thing up or did he fly by the seat of his pants and just hoped things worked out? In my opinion, a little bit of both.

I don't see him as some kind of a great manipulator -- but that doesn't mean he doesn't manipulate. :D

I'm completely with you on that. :D

I was going to say this in my answer to you at the previous post, but since it went with this episode, I figured I'd just wait til you posted a comment that was thematically related enough to mention it here. *g* Anyway, regarding Methos's occasionally hit-or-miss skills as a manipulator, I think it's also in his best interests (and something he probably does more or less automatically; it's part of his survival strategy, after all) to take credit for plans that actually work, whether or not it was actually part of the plan. "Yeah, I meant to do that ..." Now that I've had time to ponder his Xanatos gambit in Revelations, I think there's an awful lot of after-the-fact mental revising going on here -- I don't think his shock when things start spinning out of control in Revelations is feigned, and while Duncan might have guessed correctly that at least some of the "accidental" stuff was part of the plan, it totally smacks to me of Methos claiming credit (or at least leaving the possibility open) in order to cement his reputation as a master manipulator. Which is probably how all master manipulators do it. *g*

Oh yes. You can totally watch it in his face at certain moments, when Kronos does something that confounds his original plan, and then he mentally switches gears and pretends that had been his intention all along. He's not someone who sets up a complex plan and watches it play out exactly as intended - it's more step-by-step, and of course he's fantastically good at wiggling out of things. I love it to pieces. :D

OMG. This two-parter! I love it so, so much. I'd watched HL before, and enjoyed it a lot, but this was when it really hit me, and I was gone. MEEEETHOOOOOOOOSSS!!!!!!!! ♥ ♥ ♥

I love, as always, how complicated the show makes things

Yes! And I feel they did all the characters justice there, which is really why it works so fantastically well for me. And I love this show because people in it can change - and you really get to see it. It's a constant theme, and one of the best things about it. No one's locked forever into what they used to be unless they choose to.

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Highlander mid-season-five 2-parter

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The answer is yes. Oh, yes.

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