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Highlander mid-season-five 2-parter
Wow. That was seriously epic. This show! *catches breath*
And the Horsemen of the Apocalypse thing ... did not see that coming AT ALL. Well, okay, having seen those clips of barbarian!Methos did spoil me for that twist once the episode got underway (as soon as Cassandra brought up the horsemen, my reaction was "HOSHIT METHOS"), but yeah ... again with managing to remain unspoiled for what is probably one of the easiest spoilers to run across in the whole fandom. *g*
I'm still processing a lot of it. I love, as always, how complicated the show makes things -- it's not as simple as Methos going along with Kronos & co. out of fear, or because they're his friends, or because he's tempted by what they're offering, but perhaps a little of all three, in different measures depending on the moment. I liked seeing the less pleasant side of Duncan's moral absolutism: that it's both a strength and a failing of his. I liked the recognition that the Bronze Age Eurasian world was rough and cruel and brutal (Cassandra's fate -- captured, raped, her people killed -- was the fate of a lot of women in her time), but also that the same kind of cruelty and brutality still exists today (the Vietnam comparison -- that whole conversation with Joe and Duncan -- was brilliant).
I suspect that when I dive into the fanworks for this show that I'm going to find a lot of stories in which Methos is written as a guilt-ridden woobie, and, I don't know, I guess one of the things I really love about him is that he's not? I don't get the impression that he's sitting around being eaten up with guilt for those days. He just doesn't want to do it again; like he says at one point, it was a phase he went through, and now he's moved on. Which is not to say that he doesn't have regrets or guilt at all -- obviously he does for specific things (like what happened to Cassandra). But, again, not to the consuming level, and I don't think he hates himself for it or anything.
I don't think anything in these episodes changed my general impressions of Methos that I was talking about in the last post, but it added a lot of depth and complexity.
So, yeah ... still pondering the character stuff in the episodes, still kind of blown away by the action and the epic scope.
And the Horsemen of the Apocalypse thing ... did not see that coming AT ALL. Well, okay, having seen those clips of barbarian!Methos did spoil me for that twist once the episode got underway (as soon as Cassandra brought up the horsemen, my reaction was "HOSHIT METHOS"), but yeah ... again with managing to remain unspoiled for what is probably one of the easiest spoilers to run across in the whole fandom. *g*
I'm still processing a lot of it. I love, as always, how complicated the show makes things -- it's not as simple as Methos going along with Kronos & co. out of fear, or because they're his friends, or because he's tempted by what they're offering, but perhaps a little of all three, in different measures depending on the moment. I liked seeing the less pleasant side of Duncan's moral absolutism: that it's both a strength and a failing of his. I liked the recognition that the Bronze Age Eurasian world was rough and cruel and brutal (Cassandra's fate -- captured, raped, her people killed -- was the fate of a lot of women in her time), but also that the same kind of cruelty and brutality still exists today (the Vietnam comparison -- that whole conversation with Joe and Duncan -- was brilliant).
I suspect that when I dive into the fanworks for this show that I'm going to find a lot of stories in which Methos is written as a guilt-ridden woobie, and, I don't know, I guess one of the things I really love about him is that he's not? I don't get the impression that he's sitting around being eaten up with guilt for those days. He just doesn't want to do it again; like he says at one point, it was a phase he went through, and now he's moved on. Which is not to say that he doesn't have regrets or guilt at all -- obviously he does for specific things (like what happened to Cassandra). But, again, not to the consuming level, and I don't think he hates himself for it or anything.
I don't think anything in these episodes changed my general impressions of Methos that I was talking about in the last post, but it added a lot of depth and complexity.
So, yeah ... still pondering the character stuff in the episodes, still kind of blown away by the action and the epic scope.
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HAHAHAHA ... color me unsurprised.
He knows better now and doesn't want to be that monster again, and feels that's enough for him--and hopes that'll be enough for Duncan too.
Yeah ... like I said in the comment above, I'm still working out how I feel about Methos and what I think of him, but this is true -- he prefers who he is now, and doesn't want to go back. I don't think he was unhappy being who he was then; I can see how an Immortal in a Bronze Age world would be even more powerful in comparison to everyone else than an Immortal in a medieval world or Roman world -- to the point that I can see how someone could easily get caught up in that, and think of himself as a sort of minor god. But the world's changed; he's changed.
It's also very interesting to look back at "Valkyrie" after watching these episodes, since the choice Methos makes at the end -- killing a friend (Silas) to save Cassandra -- is quite similar to Duncan's killing Ingrid at the end of Valkyrie.
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Hee! Yeah, pretty much! I mean, if your tastes lean that way there's some really enjoyable id-fic.
Yes, much of my fondness for "The Valkyrie", aside from the awesome guest stars, is that it's all build-up for the Horsemen eps. Silas, for all his lack of concern for regular human beings, doesn't seem to have a malicious bone in his body--I can see why Methos would like him so much. But Silas didn't seem capable of change, and Ingrid couldn't either, couldn't stop herself from killing, and it's really this inability to change that seals their fate. Duncan, for all that he's been doing a lot of killing lately, isn't stuck--we've discussed his adaptability, how he learns all the things, and not just technology, but new worldviews. He can choose not to kill.
Which is what he does at the end, with Cassandra and Methos. Duncan is confronted once again with a friend who seems to have gone dark-side. But when Cassandra has Methos at her feet, axe in hand, he cries out, "I want him to live!" By asking for Methos' life--demanding it, practically--Duncan was saying that he's accepted Methos' past and accepted that he's changed. Judge and jury once more, but not executioner.
I've seen some arguments that Duncan had no right to take Cassandra's vengeance from her, but it's not like he could have stopped her if she really wanted Methos dead. And I highly doubt Duncan would have come after Cassandra if she had killed Methos.
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And to some extent, the episode before it as well -- it dealt with similar themes of pacifism and violence, when it's appropriate to take up arms and when it's not. It's really fascinating to look at the group of episodes as a whole, and the way that the theme was developed throughout.
Which is what he does at the end, with Cassandra and Methos. Duncan is confronted once again with a friend who seems to have gone dark-side. But when Cassandra has Methos at her feet, axe in hand, he cries out, "I want him to live!" By asking for Methos' life--demanding it, practically--Duncan was saying that he's accepted Methos' past and accepted that he's changed. Judge and jury once more, but not executioner.
Oh, that's really interesting! I'd seen the Silas + Methos situation as an analog of Ingrid + Duncan in "The Valkyrie", but hadn't gone ahead and taken it to the next step. I'm not sure if it's a matter of accepting/forgiving Methos's past, though, so much as trusting in his future -- that he won't kill again. The reason he couldn't let Ingrid go: he didn't feel that he could trust her not to continue killing. But he does grant that trust to Methos, maybe just because he's tired of losing friends and ready to try another path this time.
Yeah, I don't really see it as taking away Cassandra's revenge either. Like you said, it's not as if he could have stopped her if she wasn't willing to be stopped. And to some extent, he was not just saving one friend but saving two: stopping Cassandra from making a choice that Duncan wished he hadn't made in the past.
One storyline I will never get tired of -- though sometimes it's done badly, and sometimes, as here, it's done well -- is the story of the vengeance seeker who nurtures their hatred through the years 'til finally they find their enemy ... except the enemy is now a changed man (or woman). What then? A:tLA had a couple of episodes with a great riff on that theme as well.
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Yes, I think you're right, that it's more about Duncan trusting that Methos isn't that man any more, he isn't that kind of killer, than about Duncan having fully accepted Methos' past. I'm not sure Duncan could ever fully comprehend a thousand years of massacring, and it'll take some time to find peace with his own feelings for Methos (in a friendshippy, non-slashy way) now that he knows this about him.
And to some extent, he was not just saving one friend but saving two: stopping Cassandra from making a choice that Duncan wished he hadn't made in the past.
This is very true. I've never seen Cassandra as a fighter; she probably hasn't taken many heads. And each killing is a burden, regardless of its righteousness or lack thereof. But then I'm a huge fan of reconciliation--there isn't a lot of fic dealing with Methos and Cassandra reconciling, but the few I've read have been wonderful.
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This doesn't address your above comment exactly, but is somewhat related:
I had a discussion with
I love Joe, and I love that he brings up his own past in Vietnam in an effort to understand Methos, but what gets overlooked by HL fandom too often is that his first reaction is to deny that his buddy, his good friend Methos, could be what she says he is. "Someone lives with thoughts of revenge for that long, it becomes an obsession. Maybe she's delusional. Maybe she's a liar! What do you really know about this woman?" I mean, it's practically ripped from the headlines. How often do we hear this kind of crap?
I don't blame Joe for wanting to defend his friend; of course he's loyal. I do blame those in HL fandom for saying that Duncan should have said what Joe said, that Duncan should have trusted Methos, his buddy, over Cassandra, a woman who titillated young Duncan.
But what I love best about Duncan here is his response: "No, I believe Cassandra is telling the truth. I'm not going to assume she's lying to me about her rapist." In his gut, he doesn't believe it of Methos, but just because he doesn't want to believe it doesn't mean he's going to ignore Cassandra and trust Methos blindly. He goes to Methos for answers... and gets all the answers he could want.
So yeah, what I said before about HL the show treating female characters with more respect than HL fandom does, this is what I mean.
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But still. He raped her (among many other women) and I think canon is pretty unambiguous about that. And I was generally pretty happy with the way that both the magnitude of his crimes towards her, and Cassandra's right to her own anger and autonomy, were treated in canon. (I was similarly happy with the handling of the rape-victim-revenges-herself-on-rapist plot in season one; I don't remember if I posted about it at the time, but I really loved that the show both a) had him be guilty, and b) allowed her to ultimately be the one to fire the bullet, rather than her father or Duncan doing something first.) I liked the way that the Joe and Duncan scene played out, particularly since I felt that canon was having both characters be true to themselves and to how people do react in situations like that, for good and ill -- loyalty to a friend vs. trusting a rape victim over the person she's accusing ... and there were assorted extenuating circumstances on both sides, which I thought canon did a pretty good job of handling. I'm continually impressed with how this show handles sticky moral dilemmas, including those that carry a lot of real-world baggage for viewers; it's not perfect, of course, but it's head and shoulders above most other shows I've seen, then or now.
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No, I know what you mean, and honestly I'd be happier if more people just wrote fic in which Cassandra finds peace with herself. I don't particularly need her forgiving Methos or even interacting with him, and to be honest I prefer a Methos who understands that he has no right to even ask for it. Maybe what I meant was more "reconciliation with oneself". That said,
(I'm definitely not going to call it love, but hell, history is full of women who had absolutely no choice about who they had sex with, or married, and found ways to be content with it anyway. And she seemed to be on a road to something like that.)
They both were, I think. A pretty sad imitation of love, but still--there was something there.
Yes, you did mention that S1 ep, which I think is when I commented about HL the show being pretty decent in how it handled women. Following your re-watch has deepened my appreciation of the show, in fact, because while I certainly was aware that HL enjoyed moral complexity, it's only now that I'm more clued in about some of these issues that I can really respect the way the writers handled them.
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Yes, you did! Oh, the post-R6:8 fallout! Which has nothing in common with anything you'll ever see on the show! The Methos apologists! Did you know poor widdle Methos never was responsible for any bad thing he did? He was being FORCED to do it for a thousand years! *headdesk*
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And big mean Duncan should beg his forgiveness for everything Duncan has done/said/thought about Methos ever because it was ALL WRONG. And mean. *nods firmly*
Ah, poor wee woobie Methos. I thought the 'cries-at-drop-of-hat' variety was particularly well-characterised. /snark
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And I think the 'post CaH/Rev6.8 reconciliation fic' was practically obligatory for D/M writers at one point...