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Highlander mid-season-five 2-parter
Wow. That was seriously epic. This show! *catches breath*
And the Horsemen of the Apocalypse thing ... did not see that coming AT ALL. Well, okay, having seen those clips of barbarian!Methos did spoil me for that twist once the episode got underway (as soon as Cassandra brought up the horsemen, my reaction was "HOSHIT METHOS"), but yeah ... again with managing to remain unspoiled for what is probably one of the easiest spoilers to run across in the whole fandom. *g*
I'm still processing a lot of it. I love, as always, how complicated the show makes things -- it's not as simple as Methos going along with Kronos & co. out of fear, or because they're his friends, or because he's tempted by what they're offering, but perhaps a little of all three, in different measures depending on the moment. I liked seeing the less pleasant side of Duncan's moral absolutism: that it's both a strength and a failing of his. I liked the recognition that the Bronze Age Eurasian world was rough and cruel and brutal (Cassandra's fate -- captured, raped, her people killed -- was the fate of a lot of women in her time), but also that the same kind of cruelty and brutality still exists today (the Vietnam comparison -- that whole conversation with Joe and Duncan -- was brilliant).
I suspect that when I dive into the fanworks for this show that I'm going to find a lot of stories in which Methos is written as a guilt-ridden woobie, and, I don't know, I guess one of the things I really love about him is that he's not? I don't get the impression that he's sitting around being eaten up with guilt for those days. He just doesn't want to do it again; like he says at one point, it was a phase he went through, and now he's moved on. Which is not to say that he doesn't have regrets or guilt at all -- obviously he does for specific things (like what happened to Cassandra). But, again, not to the consuming level, and I don't think he hates himself for it or anything.
I don't think anything in these episodes changed my general impressions of Methos that I was talking about in the last post, but it added a lot of depth and complexity.
So, yeah ... still pondering the character stuff in the episodes, still kind of blown away by the action and the epic scope.
And the Horsemen of the Apocalypse thing ... did not see that coming AT ALL. Well, okay, having seen those clips of barbarian!Methos did spoil me for that twist once the episode got underway (as soon as Cassandra brought up the horsemen, my reaction was "HOSHIT METHOS"), but yeah ... again with managing to remain unspoiled for what is probably one of the easiest spoilers to run across in the whole fandom. *g*
I'm still processing a lot of it. I love, as always, how complicated the show makes things -- it's not as simple as Methos going along with Kronos & co. out of fear, or because they're his friends, or because he's tempted by what they're offering, but perhaps a little of all three, in different measures depending on the moment. I liked seeing the less pleasant side of Duncan's moral absolutism: that it's both a strength and a failing of his. I liked the recognition that the Bronze Age Eurasian world was rough and cruel and brutal (Cassandra's fate -- captured, raped, her people killed -- was the fate of a lot of women in her time), but also that the same kind of cruelty and brutality still exists today (the Vietnam comparison -- that whole conversation with Joe and Duncan -- was brilliant).
I suspect that when I dive into the fanworks for this show that I'm going to find a lot of stories in which Methos is written as a guilt-ridden woobie, and, I don't know, I guess one of the things I really love about him is that he's not? I don't get the impression that he's sitting around being eaten up with guilt for those days. He just doesn't want to do it again; like he says at one point, it was a phase he went through, and now he's moved on. Which is not to say that he doesn't have regrets or guilt at all -- obviously he does for specific things (like what happened to Cassandra). But, again, not to the consuming level, and I don't think he hates himself for it or anything.
I don't think anything in these episodes changed my general impressions of Methos that I was talking about in the last post, but it added a lot of depth and complexity.
So, yeah ... still pondering the character stuff in the episodes, still kind of blown away by the action and the epic scope.
no subject
I tend to see the Cassandra thing as the beginning of the end of the Horsemen myself, so I'm not sure how well it works as an example of their dynamic during Methos's worst days. But you never know; it might be.
And I think Methos could have killed Kronos if he'd really wanted to - not in an open fight, maybe, but hell, even Kronos has to sleep some time, you know? Or a gun would do the trick. (Methos is good at not playing fair, after all.) But he didn't really want to - part of him still loved Kronos even while he was afraid of him.
Btw, I find it really interesting that you weren't sure Methos wouldn't actively turn against Duncan - it's something that never really occurred to me.
He also had a perfect opportunity to kill Cassandra at the warehouse, and didn't.
In fact, he saved her life - her Voice didn't work against Kronos, and she was no match for him with a sword.
no subject
I had wondered this myself when I first watched the episode -- if the Cassandra thing was part of the catalyst for his transition to the Methos we know now. But I don't think the timeline works out at all. He refers to having been with the Horsemen as recently as 2000 years ago, doesn't he? Even allowing for a fudge factor of a few hundred years, if this is the Bronze Age, he'd still have several centuries with the Horsemen ahead of him. This would have been more like the middle of it. It may still have been a catalyzing factor, but I don't think it was an immediate one; based on timeline I'd figured that it was probably one of other, similar scenes that took place throughout his time with the Horsemen and eventually led to him finding a different path from theirs.
Ironically for how little we know about him, Methos's timeline is actually harder for me to sync up in my head than Duncan's, because some of the references from earlier in the series don't seem to fit with his whole "barbarian raider" persona at all ... like having kept a journal "since writing began", learning hieroglyphics and Greek along the way.... On the other hand, since even the other Horsemen seem to think of him as a scholarly, bookish person, presumably he was that way when he was with them as well, which is a delightfully complicated picture: Methos, seeking knowledge as well as destruction, relaxing at the end of a hard day of pillaging and raping by writing in his journal, or forcing captives to teach him their languages .... (Kronos: "You were supposed to take slaves, not books!")
But he didn't really want to - part of him still loved Kronos even while he was afraid of him.
Oh, yes, certainly. Well, he basically told Duncan that at the end of the last episode, didn't he? He didn't kill Kronos in part because Kronos was still his family. But he's also scared shitless of him ...
I like the dark complexity of Methos's relationship with the Horsemen; he can recognize what they are, but he still feels the bond with them -- they haven't stopped being his friends simply because he's changed and they haven't. And they aren't the ones who reject him -- they're quite willing to take him back again. I'm not entirely sure of all of his motivations for helping Kronos get the band back together -- surely four of them would be infinitely more dangerous to the world, and to Duncan and Methos's other friends, than two of them -- but I do think part of it, maybe most of it, was just that he wanted to see his friends again, and have the camaraderie back that they shared in the old days. As isolated as Methos generally is these days, and as long as he's lived, it's possible that his time with the Horsemen was the last time he really felt like he was a full-fledged part of a group and not an outsider.
Btw, I find it really interesting that you weren't sure Methos wouldn't actively turn against Duncan - it's something that never really occurred to me.
No, I wasn't sure. I was actually a bit surprised that he drew his line there. But then, I was still feeling out my view of the character. I don't think Methos is completely unwilling to betray or attempt to harm a friend -- he turned against Silas, after all, though only when Silas really forced his hand. But it does seem like loyalty is one of his overriding traits, to the few people that he gives his loyalty to. (... oh hell, that's another bulletproof fiction kink of mine too. *g*) Which was actually one of the reasons why I'd emotionally distanced myself from the character earlier in season five -- I'd been getting the impression that he was putting on a show of camaraderie that wasn't really there. But, no, not really: I think in some ways he's a more loyal person than Duncan is (much as I adore Duncan ...) because Duncan will act against his friends' interests if he has to for the greater good. It tears him apart, but he'll do it. Methos is more of a "screw the world, my friends all the way" kind of person -- like in these episodes with the Horsemen, actually.
no subject
which is a delightfully complicated picture: Methos, seeking knowledge as well as destruction, relaxing at the end of a hard day of pillaging and raping by writing in his journal
That made me laugh. :D I can so imagine that!
I'm not entirely sure of all of his motivations for helping Kronos get the band back together
There are so many possibilities there, and I don't think it's just one reason. But at least part of it, I'm sure, was that if it had to end (and it had to, with Duncan after Kronos knowing what he knows now), it should end completely.
I don't think Methos is completely unwilling to betray or attempt to harm a friend -- he turned against Silas, after all, though only when Silas really forced his hand. But it does seem like loyalty is one of his overriding traits, to the few people that he gives his loyalty to.
I agree with this completely.
think in some ways he's a more loyal person than Duncan is (much as I adore Duncan ...) because Duncan will act against his friends' interests if he has to for the greater good.
Yeah, like we've discussed before, with Duncan it's abstract principles, and with Methos it's always personal. And they're neither of them completely wrong, which is why they're good for each other in my opinion.