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I think it's interesting what hooks people on a show and what doesn't. I'm watching Luke Cage now (I'd saved that one for last because I knew Orion wanted to see it, but he's never gotten around to it, so you snooze, you lose, Orion XD). But as it turns out, my read on this show was pretty accurate: it's an Orion show, not a ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sholio type of show.
Objectively it's really well written, I recognize that. And I LOVE Luke, Misty, and Claire. But as of about 6 1/2 episodes into it, I'm just "meh" on everything apart from them.
Part of it is that a serious, gritty show about corrupt cops and mobsters is not precisely what I want right now; I'm more into candy-colored escapism given the current state of the world. But honestly I think the biggest reason why the show isn't really snagging me that hard is because I fall for character relationships, not individual characters. You can hook me hard on a mediocre show or one in which I haven't really learned the characters yet by having them be intense about each other. Iron Fist, despite being objectively a worse show than Luke Cage -- I completely recognize this! -- hooked me from the beginning by having really intense relationships between the characters (Danny + the Meachum siblings, Danny and Colleen, Colleen and Bakudo, Ward and his dad, Danny and Davos ...).
And I basically love that Luke Cage EXISTS. Like, it's a great show, I love that it doesn't have a white character in sight and that's just no big deal, I am really enjoying the music and the aesthetic and the characters individually. But ...
Luke Cage just kind of ... doesn't have those intense relationships that I crave. It's got snappy dialogue and gorgeous directing and solid plots, but so far, 6 1/2 eps in, the closest and most emotionally intense relationships, as well as most of the interaction, between relatable characters all involved people who died (Luke and Pops, Misty and her awful partner, Luke and Reva). Claire and Luke are friends, but in a kind of loose, "drifting in and out" way. Misty and Luke have barely interacted and she's been too distracted with other things to really get a good, intense "cop vs. criminal they're obsessed with" kind of vibe going on.
Like, the show is objectively really good, but it's not emotional enough for me. While Iron Fist had emotional intensity out the wazoo.
... and by that, I don't mean the characters in Luke Cage aren't emotional on their own. They really are! The whole thing with Luke's flashbacks to prison and meeting his wife was so wrenching that I had to skim some of it because I couldn't stand watching him be so beat down and trapped.
But it wasn't really about making connections to people in the present, and whenever they jumped back to the present, everyone involved were people he didn't really have the same kind of emotional intensity he had in the past; it was just ... sad.
I've complained elsewhere that I felt like Iron Fist skimmed a lot of setup it should have had to let you know who the characters were, and just jumped straight into having the characters do stuff. But I feel like Luke Cage is ALL setup - like 6-7 episodes into the show, we're still just kind of getting the background for the relationships (and relationship intensity) the characters are eventually going to have. I don't think this would bother me at all if there was just ONE really compelling, emotionally intense relationship that could keep me hooked (which is basically what Iron Fist did - even before I had a chance to get attached to the characters per se, the intensity between the siblings and Danny's attempts to connect with Colleen kept me watching).
But the most intense relationships on Luke Cage so far, like I said, have all involved the main characters with people who've died. There's Cottonmouth and Mariah, but I find that I'm not really that interested in criminals who don't have even a hint of something redeeming about them - for having emotional feelings about, I mean. Again ... Iron Fist ... there are a couple of characters in that show who are pretty awful (Ward and Joy, for example, or Bakudo) but they have a lot of redeeming features too - like, they're doing bad things, but they also do good things and have people they love. I would watch an entire show about Bakudo even though he's terrible, because he's also really fascinating and I would love to see more of his students and his world and his relationship with Colleen. But these people are just objectively terrible. It's why I wasn't that into the Fisk/Vanessa relationship in Daredevil either (in an emotional, shippy kind of way, I mean), because they were just awful people with NO redeeming qualities aside from loving each other, and not people who waffled back and forth across the hero/villain line like several of the ones in Iron Fist do.
So yeah, idk. I think I'm down to the point on Luke Cage where I'm probably just going to start skimming for Luke/Misty and Luke/Claire moments (and Claire and her mom!), because I really DO love those characters and want to see more of them, but overall I kind of feel like it's Not My Kind Of Show even though I totally see why it's other people's kind of show; it's the same reason why I never really got into things like Breaking Bad and House of Cards and that sort of show, either.
And I'm talking about this not to talk down Luke Cage and talk up Iron Fist, but I just think it's interesting because of what makes me fall for a show, or not -- and it's not necessarily anything to do with the writing or even the protagonists (I mean, as a character, I love Luke whereas I merely like Danny, and Luke's actor is amazing), but all other issues aside, emotional intensity of certain types is about as close to a bulletproof narrative kink as I have. And watching these two shows back to back is like a case study in quality writing that pulls back from the really iddy, emotional stuff, vs. a show that is objectively not so great but is a hammerblow to the feels. And feels win. >__>
(And the thing is, I know it'd be the other way around for plenty of people, e.g. Orion. I've watched enough stuff with him by now to know that he would find the emotional OTT-ness of Iron Fist dull and uncomfortable, and prefer the lower intensity/higher plot ratio of Luke Cage. Whereas I'm the other way around.)
Anyway, after I finish LC, Defenders is next up and I'm really looking forward to it. :D
sholio type of show.Objectively it's really well written, I recognize that. And I LOVE Luke, Misty, and Claire. But as of about 6 1/2 episodes into it, I'm just "meh" on everything apart from them.
Part of it is that a serious, gritty show about corrupt cops and mobsters is not precisely what I want right now; I'm more into candy-colored escapism given the current state of the world. But honestly I think the biggest reason why the show isn't really snagging me that hard is because I fall for character relationships, not individual characters. You can hook me hard on a mediocre show or one in which I haven't really learned the characters yet by having them be intense about each other. Iron Fist, despite being objectively a worse show than Luke Cage -- I completely recognize this! -- hooked me from the beginning by having really intense relationships between the characters (Danny + the Meachum siblings, Danny and Colleen, Colleen and Bakudo, Ward and his dad, Danny and Davos ...).
And I basically love that Luke Cage EXISTS. Like, it's a great show, I love that it doesn't have a white character in sight and that's just no big deal, I am really enjoying the music and the aesthetic and the characters individually. But ...
Luke Cage just kind of ... doesn't have those intense relationships that I crave. It's got snappy dialogue and gorgeous directing and solid plots, but so far, 6 1/2 eps in, the closest and most emotionally intense relationships, as well as most of the interaction, between relatable characters all involved people who died (Luke and Pops, Misty and her awful partner, Luke and Reva). Claire and Luke are friends, but in a kind of loose, "drifting in and out" way. Misty and Luke have barely interacted and she's been too distracted with other things to really get a good, intense "cop vs. criminal they're obsessed with" kind of vibe going on.
Like, the show is objectively really good, but it's not emotional enough for me. While Iron Fist had emotional intensity out the wazoo.
... and by that, I don't mean the characters in Luke Cage aren't emotional on their own. They really are! The whole thing with Luke's flashbacks to prison and meeting his wife was so wrenching that I had to skim some of it because I couldn't stand watching him be so beat down and trapped.
But it wasn't really about making connections to people in the present, and whenever they jumped back to the present, everyone involved were people he didn't really have the same kind of emotional intensity he had in the past; it was just ... sad.
I've complained elsewhere that I felt like Iron Fist skimmed a lot of setup it should have had to let you know who the characters were, and just jumped straight into having the characters do stuff. But I feel like Luke Cage is ALL setup - like 6-7 episodes into the show, we're still just kind of getting the background for the relationships (and relationship intensity) the characters are eventually going to have. I don't think this would bother me at all if there was just ONE really compelling, emotionally intense relationship that could keep me hooked (which is basically what Iron Fist did - even before I had a chance to get attached to the characters per se, the intensity between the siblings and Danny's attempts to connect with Colleen kept me watching).
But the most intense relationships on Luke Cage so far, like I said, have all involved the main characters with people who've died. There's Cottonmouth and Mariah, but I find that I'm not really that interested in criminals who don't have even a hint of something redeeming about them - for having emotional feelings about, I mean. Again ... Iron Fist ... there are a couple of characters in that show who are pretty awful (Ward and Joy, for example, or Bakudo) but they have a lot of redeeming features too - like, they're doing bad things, but they also do good things and have people they love. I would watch an entire show about Bakudo even though he's terrible, because he's also really fascinating and I would love to see more of his students and his world and his relationship with Colleen. But these people are just objectively terrible. It's why I wasn't that into the Fisk/Vanessa relationship in Daredevil either (in an emotional, shippy kind of way, I mean), because they were just awful people with NO redeeming qualities aside from loving each other, and not people who waffled back and forth across the hero/villain line like several of the ones in Iron Fist do.
So yeah, idk. I think I'm down to the point on Luke Cage where I'm probably just going to start skimming for Luke/Misty and Luke/Claire moments (and Claire and her mom!), because I really DO love those characters and want to see more of them, but overall I kind of feel like it's Not My Kind Of Show even though I totally see why it's other people's kind of show; it's the same reason why I never really got into things like Breaking Bad and House of Cards and that sort of show, either.
And I'm talking about this not to talk down Luke Cage and talk up Iron Fist, but I just think it's interesting because of what makes me fall for a show, or not -- and it's not necessarily anything to do with the writing or even the protagonists (I mean, as a character, I love Luke whereas I merely like Danny, and Luke's actor is amazing), but all other issues aside, emotional intensity of certain types is about as close to a bulletproof narrative kink as I have. And watching these two shows back to back is like a case study in quality writing that pulls back from the really iddy, emotional stuff, vs. a show that is objectively not so great but is a hammerblow to the feels. And feels win. >__>
(And the thing is, I know it'd be the other way around for plenty of people, e.g. Orion. I've watched enough stuff with him by now to know that he would find the emotional OTT-ness of Iron Fist dull and uncomfortable, and prefer the lower intensity/higher plot ratio of Luke Cage. Whereas I'm the other way around.)
Anyway, after I finish LC, Defenders is next up and I'm really looking forward to it. :D
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And at one point in my life I might still totally have watched it just for the characters but these days I'm so mentally exhausted w/r/t fiction that if it's not FEEDING MY BRAIN CANDY I just caaaaan't.
Like I even like the CHARACTERS enough that I have read up extensively on stuff! And I can actually have quite involved convos about them and their psychology! But the episodes just . . . drag on and I don't get sucked in and I end up evaluating everything on a craft level and getting annoyed and I just don't wanna.
It's a weird place to bein, tbh.
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I'm in a headspace right now where I'm perfectly happy to tolerate poor storytelling if it's delivering me a solid punch in the feels, which Iron Fist is totally doing for me -- GIVE ME FEELS, she said *grabbyhands* -- but ... yeah. I totally understand not being in a mental place where you can deal with it.
And honestly I think headspace makes a HUGE difference, maybe even to the point of being the biggest determining factor in "enjoy" vs. "not enjoy", because I could see myself enjoying Luke Cage quite a lot at a different point in my life, just ... it's really, really not what I want right now.
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But if I'm NOT getting that charge, then my brain is in the most analytical craft-based hyper-critical space ever and it's NOT FUN.
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This is actually one reason why I try to avoid spoilers when I know I'm going to want to watch something! There's something about not knowing what happens next that helps my brain shut off the critical lobe. But if I have some idea of what's coming, and ESPECIALLY if it's either been phrased to me in a "you must like this thing!" kind of way or I already have some anticipation that I "should" be reacting a certain way (either because I've made up my mind beforehand about the character dynamics based on spoilers/fannish osmosis, or because I can tell that the narrative is attempting to push me in a certain direction) my heels dig in and I get super-critical. (You think I'll like that? WELL IT'S NOT SO GREAT!) It's ruined my enjoyment of some things in the past that I later liked just fine when I went back and watched them years later when the initial "do not want" aspects had passed. It is a very annoying thing that my brain does. >__>
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That is super interesting because my brain does exactly the opposite: if it's emotionally charged and I don't know what's going to happen it's like "no sorry we are firmly instating a clinical and analytical distance here you are definitely not allowed to feel anything until we've thought it over you think we're just going to let you wander out there and be emotionally affected by things?"
Because if I'm just blithely going along Feeling Things and then something pings [wrong] (not even....bad? Or upsetting? As such? But just hits a certain gut sense of "dnw" or "this is artificial manipulation by the author" or whatever) it's REALLY UPSETTING whether I want it to be or not.
Only with a very few creators these days do I have sufficient confidence that they're not going to do THAT, enough to be able to both take in a story unspoiled AND with the analysis brain muted. Mostly I get one or the other.
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In general I think my brain needs that "don't know what happens next!" to immerse itself, but I COMPLETELY get doing the opposite thing, and for pretty much that reason, since there are some canons/creators (an increasing number of them, honestly) for which I need to spoil myself for certain things in order to get proper immersion.
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Me.
I hate spoilers for this exact reason. My mind always comes up with some way of interpreting this thing I know exists that I "must like" and when it actually happens, instead of enjoying it, I end up comparing it to my headcanon and...death to enjoyment.
Must. Avoid. All. Spoilers.
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(It's kind of hilarious/sad how often you see fandom collectively doing this - with just about every new installation of an ongoing canon that comes out, honestly. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with seeking out spoilers - I know a number of people who do it because it enhances their enjoyment - but it's a really common thing in a lot of fandoms to spoil themselves like whoa and write tons of fic about the New Thing/New Character and then flip their lid because the real version isn't like the fandom version. Or just get collectively pissed about something that hasn't even happened yet and might not even happen that way at all!)
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(I have got to figure out a way to get myself to watch IF. XD )
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Haha, well, when I finally get to S2 (it'll be after Defenders) and don't have to worry about spoilers so I can go into the tags, you'll probably be treated to a gifpocalypse. You might end up having to watch it in self-defense. XD In all fairness I skimmed chunks of the first few episodes to get through them. It takes awhile to pick up steam.
But yeah, I can love characters as individuals, but it takes compelling, intense relationships to really hook me. I have certain needs. :D
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I hope you might be willing to give Iron Fist another chance because I'd love to have more people to talk to about it (and to read my inevitable h/c fic XD). Though I completely understand if it never does become your kind of thing. To be honest I mainly got through the first few episodes by skipping anything that was dragging for me (but I was interested in the Meachum family dynamics from the beginning, and Colleen, which helped a lot).
I could give you a spoiler for one of the future twists (Colleen-related) that might make you more interested, because it adds a really interesting dynamic to one of the character relationships, and based on the kind of thing I've gotten the impression you're into, might be an enticement? It's a pretty big spoiler, though, so it depends on how much spoilers tend to entice you vs. spoiling your enjoyment of the twists and turns of a plot.
At the very least you're probably going to be treated to a gifpocalypse on Tumblr when I finally get to S2 so I can look up the tags without worrying about spoilers ...
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Actually, if you've seen Defenders, you might know this already! (I haven't seen that one yet, so I don't know how much of a thing it is.)
SPOILERS FOR IRON FIST
So the big reveal on Colleen is that she's with the Hand, the shadowy nemesis ninja organization who are antagonists in several of the Netflix Defenderverse shows. Danny was raised his whole life to fight them and then finds out the woman he's falling in love with is actually a member of this organization he's always been told are Pure Evil; meanwhile Colleen was raised by the Hand after being orphaned, and they're the only family she has, so now she's having to deal with the fact that her family is trying to kill Danny. Basically they've got a nifty "falling in love across enemy lines/actively having to choose their sides and question what they've been raised to believe" thing going on, which made them a lot more interesting to me than if they'd just easily and unproblematically fallen in love, and I thought it might for you, too.
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... And then it turned out to be my kind of thing in just about every way. <3 They're one of my favorite couples in the Marvelverse right now.
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Another issue for me is a lack of ... fun? It's all very serious. And a serious storyline is fine! Serious moments can be amazing, and it's had some of those. But for the most part, it has a really serious tone throughout and it's just a little too serious for me.
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From what other people have said above, it sounds like the second season might be more compelling that way, but I still think I'll probably wait 'til I've watched the other ones I'm more interested in.
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ps There's this Jeff Goldblum gif going around tumblr - something to the effect that there's not bad taste and good taste, only *your* taste. :)
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ETA: Also, it doesn't hurt that Tom Pelphrey is really good. I was rewatching a couple of his early scenes and noticing how much emotional subtext he manages to get into the simplest character interaction. Even in the very beginning when we haven't found out much about Ward yet, you can see how much emotion he's suppressing and get a feeling for some of what's going on under the surface just in his eyes and body language.
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We need an Iron Fist Defense Squad.
Tom Pelphrey is so. good. Ward could so easily have been just irredeemable, or one note pathos. He has this trademark thing he does where his eyes go wide and damp and he looks like he's about to cry, but he doesn't quite, and it kills me every time. His face just does so much.
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Yes! That's essentially why the show worked so well for me, because the plot/fights might not have been all they could be, but it was so full of characters just FEELING THINGS, at high intensity, and that pulled me in (and made me want all the fic with EVEN MORE FEELS). Can't wait for season two - I'm going to finish up Defenders first (which I'm also loving) and then plunge in. The tiny scraps I've heard about the second season are making me even more eager.
We need an Iron Fist Defense Squad.
Haha! Sign me up for that. XD (There's a thing you posted awhile back, something about going for "the mediocre white boys that Tumblr hates" and uh, yeah. It me. XD But still. *fistbump of solidarity*)
I mean, yeah, rationally I get why people didn't like the show and why a lot of people didn't even give it a chance, but I'm just so glad that I didn't let the bad hype scare me off, because I thoroughly loved this dumb quirky little ninja show, in a way I might not have loved it if it hadn't been such a weird mix of kung fu and family-drama soap opera.
He has this trademark thing he does where his eyes go wide and damp and he looks like he's about to cry, but he doesn't quite, and it kills me every time. His face just does so much.
YES. GOD. That almost-crying thing ... he just gets so much suppressed emotion into his face. I think Ward is one of those characters who needs a really good, subtle actor to sell him as a character, or else he's just going to come across as a whiny rich kid with daddy issues, but Pelphrey absolutely acted his heart out.
I'm currently missing him in Defenders - not that the show isn't stuffed full of characters as it is, but I get the impression he must have been left out because of scheduling issues with the actor and not any other reason (they even name-check Ward in a scene where he really should have been, when Danny's getting info on Midland Circle from his company, which makes me think the season was plotted with Ward in mind and then they couldn't get him for some reason). And it's not like he's vital, the show is cranking along just fine with the 50 billion characters it already has, but I keep thinking about the possibility of getting a couple more between-seasons Danny/Ward scenes, or Ward with his dry sarcasm interacting with the total weirdness of the Defenders world - or hell, Ward and Jessica, they'd either love each other or hate each other. I'm fine with the show as it is, but I feel wistful for what could have been!
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*fistbump*
Yeah, I'm in a lot of defense squads it seems. I'm just resigned to having taste that makes people mad at this point, even if sometimes their reasons are frankly factually wrong. Nice to talk to someone in the clubhouse! I have been debating trying to make some Iron Fist vids, but idk what the reaction would be like.
Ward would have been great in The Defenders, and oh god, I so want to know what you think of who he meets in IFS2. (FYI in case no one has told you, but there are two great cameos from Iron Fist regulars in Luke Cage S2? It remains a darker show in general, though.) The universe is so big at this point, it's amazing they ever have time to be in each other's shows but it's great when it happens.
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I loved season 2 to bits, especially the ending. (ASIA ROAD TRIP OF BONDING AND SELF-DISCOVERY, YESSSSSS.)