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I think it's interesting what hooks people on a show and what doesn't. I'm watching Luke Cage now (I'd saved that one for last because I knew Orion wanted to see it, but he's never gotten around to it, so you snooze, you lose, Orion XD). But as it turns out, my read on this show was pretty accurate: it's an Orion show, not a ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sholio type of show.
Objectively it's really well written, I recognize that. And I LOVE Luke, Misty, and Claire. But as of about 6 1/2 episodes into it, I'm just "meh" on everything apart from them.
Part of it is that a serious, gritty show about corrupt cops and mobsters is not precisely what I want right now; I'm more into candy-colored escapism given the current state of the world. But honestly I think the biggest reason why the show isn't really snagging me that hard is because I fall for character relationships, not individual characters. You can hook me hard on a mediocre show or one in which I haven't really learned the characters yet by having them be intense about each other. Iron Fist, despite being objectively a worse show than Luke Cage -- I completely recognize this! -- hooked me from the beginning by having really intense relationships between the characters (Danny + the Meachum siblings, Danny and Colleen, Colleen and Bakudo, Ward and his dad, Danny and Davos ...).
And I basically love that Luke Cage EXISTS. Like, it's a great show, I love that it doesn't have a white character in sight and that's just no big deal, I am really enjoying the music and the aesthetic and the characters individually. But ...
Luke Cage just kind of ... doesn't have those intense relationships that I crave. It's got snappy dialogue and gorgeous directing and solid plots, but so far, 6 1/2 eps in, the closest and most emotionally intense relationships, as well as most of the interaction, between relatable characters all involved people who died (Luke and Pops, Misty and her awful partner, Luke and Reva). Claire and Luke are friends, but in a kind of loose, "drifting in and out" way. Misty and Luke have barely interacted and she's been too distracted with other things to really get a good, intense "cop vs. criminal they're obsessed with" kind of vibe going on.
Like, the show is objectively really good, but it's not emotional enough for me. While Iron Fist had emotional intensity out the wazoo.
... and by that, I don't mean the characters in Luke Cage aren't emotional on their own. They really are! The whole thing with Luke's flashbacks to prison and meeting his wife was so wrenching that I had to skim some of it because I couldn't stand watching him be so beat down and trapped.
But it wasn't really about making connections to people in the present, and whenever they jumped back to the present, everyone involved were people he didn't really have the same kind of emotional intensity he had in the past; it was just ... sad.
I've complained elsewhere that I felt like Iron Fist skimmed a lot of setup it should have had to let you know who the characters were, and just jumped straight into having the characters do stuff. But I feel like Luke Cage is ALL setup - like 6-7 episodes into the show, we're still just kind of getting the background for the relationships (and relationship intensity) the characters are eventually going to have. I don't think this would bother me at all if there was just ONE really compelling, emotionally intense relationship that could keep me hooked (which is basically what Iron Fist did - even before I had a chance to get attached to the characters per se, the intensity between the siblings and Danny's attempts to connect with Colleen kept me watching).
But the most intense relationships on Luke Cage so far, like I said, have all involved the main characters with people who've died. There's Cottonmouth and Mariah, but I find that I'm not really that interested in criminals who don't have even a hint of something redeeming about them - for having emotional feelings about, I mean. Again ... Iron Fist ... there are a couple of characters in that show who are pretty awful (Ward and Joy, for example, or Bakudo) but they have a lot of redeeming features too - like, they're doing bad things, but they also do good things and have people they love. I would watch an entire show about Bakudo even though he's terrible, because he's also really fascinating and I would love to see more of his students and his world and his relationship with Colleen. But these people are just objectively terrible. It's why I wasn't that into the Fisk/Vanessa relationship in Daredevil either (in an emotional, shippy kind of way, I mean), because they were just awful people with NO redeeming qualities aside from loving each other, and not people who waffled back and forth across the hero/villain line like several of the ones in Iron Fist do.
So yeah, idk. I think I'm down to the point on Luke Cage where I'm probably just going to start skimming for Luke/Misty and Luke/Claire moments (and Claire and her mom!), because I really DO love those characters and want to see more of them, but overall I kind of feel like it's Not My Kind Of Show even though I totally see why it's other people's kind of show; it's the same reason why I never really got into things like Breaking Bad and House of Cards and that sort of show, either.
And I'm talking about this not to talk down Luke Cage and talk up Iron Fist, but I just think it's interesting because of what makes me fall for a show, or not -- and it's not necessarily anything to do with the writing or even the protagonists (I mean, as a character, I love Luke whereas I merely like Danny, and Luke's actor is amazing), but all other issues aside, emotional intensity of certain types is about as close to a bulletproof narrative kink as I have. And watching these two shows back to back is like a case study in quality writing that pulls back from the really iddy, emotional stuff, vs. a show that is objectively not so great but is a hammerblow to the feels. And feels win. >__>
(And the thing is, I know it'd be the other way around for plenty of people, e.g. Orion. I've watched enough stuff with him by now to know that he would find the emotional OTT-ness of Iron Fist dull and uncomfortable, and prefer the lower intensity/higher plot ratio of Luke Cage. Whereas I'm the other way around.)
Anyway, after I finish LC, Defenders is next up and I'm really looking forward to it. :D
sholio type of show.Objectively it's really well written, I recognize that. And I LOVE Luke, Misty, and Claire. But as of about 6 1/2 episodes into it, I'm just "meh" on everything apart from them.
Part of it is that a serious, gritty show about corrupt cops and mobsters is not precisely what I want right now; I'm more into candy-colored escapism given the current state of the world. But honestly I think the biggest reason why the show isn't really snagging me that hard is because I fall for character relationships, not individual characters. You can hook me hard on a mediocre show or one in which I haven't really learned the characters yet by having them be intense about each other. Iron Fist, despite being objectively a worse show than Luke Cage -- I completely recognize this! -- hooked me from the beginning by having really intense relationships between the characters (Danny + the Meachum siblings, Danny and Colleen, Colleen and Bakudo, Ward and his dad, Danny and Davos ...).
And I basically love that Luke Cage EXISTS. Like, it's a great show, I love that it doesn't have a white character in sight and that's just no big deal, I am really enjoying the music and the aesthetic and the characters individually. But ...
Luke Cage just kind of ... doesn't have those intense relationships that I crave. It's got snappy dialogue and gorgeous directing and solid plots, but so far, 6 1/2 eps in, the closest and most emotionally intense relationships, as well as most of the interaction, between relatable characters all involved people who died (Luke and Pops, Misty and her awful partner, Luke and Reva). Claire and Luke are friends, but in a kind of loose, "drifting in and out" way. Misty and Luke have barely interacted and she's been too distracted with other things to really get a good, intense "cop vs. criminal they're obsessed with" kind of vibe going on.
Like, the show is objectively really good, but it's not emotional enough for me. While Iron Fist had emotional intensity out the wazoo.
... and by that, I don't mean the characters in Luke Cage aren't emotional on their own. They really are! The whole thing with Luke's flashbacks to prison and meeting his wife was so wrenching that I had to skim some of it because I couldn't stand watching him be so beat down and trapped.
But it wasn't really about making connections to people in the present, and whenever they jumped back to the present, everyone involved were people he didn't really have the same kind of emotional intensity he had in the past; it was just ... sad.
I've complained elsewhere that I felt like Iron Fist skimmed a lot of setup it should have had to let you know who the characters were, and just jumped straight into having the characters do stuff. But I feel like Luke Cage is ALL setup - like 6-7 episodes into the show, we're still just kind of getting the background for the relationships (and relationship intensity) the characters are eventually going to have. I don't think this would bother me at all if there was just ONE really compelling, emotionally intense relationship that could keep me hooked (which is basically what Iron Fist did - even before I had a chance to get attached to the characters per se, the intensity between the siblings and Danny's attempts to connect with Colleen kept me watching).
But the most intense relationships on Luke Cage so far, like I said, have all involved the main characters with people who've died. There's Cottonmouth and Mariah, but I find that I'm not really that interested in criminals who don't have even a hint of something redeeming about them - for having emotional feelings about, I mean. Again ... Iron Fist ... there are a couple of characters in that show who are pretty awful (Ward and Joy, for example, or Bakudo) but they have a lot of redeeming features too - like, they're doing bad things, but they also do good things and have people they love. I would watch an entire show about Bakudo even though he's terrible, because he's also really fascinating and I would love to see more of his students and his world and his relationship with Colleen. But these people are just objectively terrible. It's why I wasn't that into the Fisk/Vanessa relationship in Daredevil either (in an emotional, shippy kind of way, I mean), because they were just awful people with NO redeeming qualities aside from loving each other, and not people who waffled back and forth across the hero/villain line like several of the ones in Iron Fist do.
So yeah, idk. I think I'm down to the point on Luke Cage where I'm probably just going to start skimming for Luke/Misty and Luke/Claire moments (and Claire and her mom!), because I really DO love those characters and want to see more of them, but overall I kind of feel like it's Not My Kind Of Show even though I totally see why it's other people's kind of show; it's the same reason why I never really got into things like Breaking Bad and House of Cards and that sort of show, either.
And I'm talking about this not to talk down Luke Cage and talk up Iron Fist, but I just think it's interesting because of what makes me fall for a show, or not -- and it's not necessarily anything to do with the writing or even the protagonists (I mean, as a character, I love Luke whereas I merely like Danny, and Luke's actor is amazing), but all other issues aside, emotional intensity of certain types is about as close to a bulletproof narrative kink as I have. And watching these two shows back to back is like a case study in quality writing that pulls back from the really iddy, emotional stuff, vs. a show that is objectively not so great but is a hammerblow to the feels. And feels win. >__>
(And the thing is, I know it'd be the other way around for plenty of people, e.g. Orion. I've watched enough stuff with him by now to know that he would find the emotional OTT-ness of Iron Fist dull and uncomfortable, and prefer the lower intensity/higher plot ratio of Luke Cage. Whereas I'm the other way around.)
Anyway, after I finish LC, Defenders is next up and I'm really looking forward to it. :D
no subject
ETA: Also, it doesn't hurt that Tom Pelphrey is really good. I was rewatching a couple of his early scenes and noticing how much emotional subtext he manages to get into the simplest character interaction. Even in the very beginning when we haven't found out much about Ward yet, you can see how much emotion he's suppressing and get a feeling for some of what's going on under the surface just in his eyes and body language.
no subject
We need an Iron Fist Defense Squad.
Tom Pelphrey is so. good. Ward could so easily have been just irredeemable, or one note pathos. He has this trademark thing he does where his eyes go wide and damp and he looks like he's about to cry, but he doesn't quite, and it kills me every time. His face just does so much.
no subject
Yes! That's essentially why the show worked so well for me, because the plot/fights might not have been all they could be, but it was so full of characters just FEELING THINGS, at high intensity, and that pulled me in (and made me want all the fic with EVEN MORE FEELS). Can't wait for season two - I'm going to finish up Defenders first (which I'm also loving) and then plunge in. The tiny scraps I've heard about the second season are making me even more eager.
We need an Iron Fist Defense Squad.
Haha! Sign me up for that. XD (There's a thing you posted awhile back, something about going for "the mediocre white boys that Tumblr hates" and uh, yeah. It me. XD But still. *fistbump of solidarity*)
I mean, yeah, rationally I get why people didn't like the show and why a lot of people didn't even give it a chance, but I'm just so glad that I didn't let the bad hype scare me off, because I thoroughly loved this dumb quirky little ninja show, in a way I might not have loved it if it hadn't been such a weird mix of kung fu and family-drama soap opera.
He has this trademark thing he does where his eyes go wide and damp and he looks like he's about to cry, but he doesn't quite, and it kills me every time. His face just does so much.
YES. GOD. That almost-crying thing ... he just gets so much suppressed emotion into his face. I think Ward is one of those characters who needs a really good, subtle actor to sell him as a character, or else he's just going to come across as a whiny rich kid with daddy issues, but Pelphrey absolutely acted his heart out.
I'm currently missing him in Defenders - not that the show isn't stuffed full of characters as it is, but I get the impression he must have been left out because of scheduling issues with the actor and not any other reason (they even name-check Ward in a scene where he really should have been, when Danny's getting info on Midland Circle from his company, which makes me think the season was plotted with Ward in mind and then they couldn't get him for some reason). And it's not like he's vital, the show is cranking along just fine with the 50 billion characters it already has, but I keep thinking about the possibility of getting a couple more between-seasons Danny/Ward scenes, or Ward with his dry sarcasm interacting with the total weirdness of the Defenders world - or hell, Ward and Jessica, they'd either love each other or hate each other. I'm fine with the show as it is, but I feel wistful for what could have been!
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*fistbump*
Yeah, I'm in a lot of defense squads it seems. I'm just resigned to having taste that makes people mad at this point, even if sometimes their reasons are frankly factually wrong. Nice to talk to someone in the clubhouse! I have been debating trying to make some Iron Fist vids, but idk what the reaction would be like.
Ward would have been great in The Defenders, and oh god, I so want to know what you think of who he meets in IFS2. (FYI in case no one has told you, but there are two great cameos from Iron Fist regulars in Luke Cage S2? It remains a darker show in general, though.) The universe is so big at this point, it's amazing they ever have time to be in each other's shows but it's great when it happens.
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I loved season 2 to bits, especially the ending. (ASIA ROAD TRIP OF BONDING AND SELF-DISCOVERY, YESSSSSS.)