OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

[sholio]

I can't believe that I just spent three hours reading all 400+ comments at John Scalzi's blog entry on the Organization for Transformative Works (and there are probably a lot more comments now, but I WILL NOT READ THEM because I have to sleep at some point).

It was actually a remarkably civil, reasonable and pleasant discussion. Or maybe I've just been unlucky enough to get sucked into exceedingly unpleasant discussions in my earlier fannish existence, when the topic of fanfic came up between fanfic people and pro writer people.

I actually created this fan journal back in '04 in large part because a lot of the readership of my original journal, glacierdust, had been involved in those discussions, and a few of the people who knew me in real life (who I still wanted to stay on good terms with) were vehemently anti-fanfic. I didn't use my glacierdust journal for my fanning because I didn't want to get into a fight every time I posted something fanfic-positive. Looking back on it, I think I might have been unreasonably sensitive on the topic; still, there had been some nasty fights on the comics message board where I used to be (and technically still am) a co-moderator, to the point where the other mod and I actually banned the topic of fanfic completely, because people couldn't discuss it in a civil manner.

It made me happy to find everyone (well, almost everyone) on Scalzi's board discussing the topic like reasonable adults. It also made me happy to see the fanfic side being represented by a lot of articulate, smart, well-spoken people, and most (not all, but most) of the WTF-ery happening on the "anti-fanfic" side.

One of these days, I want to make a long thinky post about fanfic vs. original writing, and my relationship to both -- the changes my opinions on both have gone through over the years, the ways I've shuffled back and forth between the two of them until coming to the rewarding balance that I have now (which may change again in the future), the way that I feel they complement each other rather than being in opposition. But right now, I'm sleepy and I have the last 50 pages of Temeraire book 3 to finish, so I think I'll go do that instead.

Comments

Rambling and reminiscing...

[derry667.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm pro-fanfic. I enjoy reading it and occasionally writing it. Not exactly hold-the-front-page news, but there you go.

I think I've been "writing it in my head" ever since I started watching TV and having book read to me as a very small child. My imagination didn't stop working once the story was told and wanted to take it elsewhere. In some ways, I think I saw it as roughly akin to the make believe games kids play - except that instead of acting them out with other kids, they sorta played out in my head. I wrote the stories down when I got older and read them to my friends. It was a surprise to find that it actually had a name (because I didn't come across the term fanfic until I discovered the internet).

I tend to avoid debates about whether fanfic is a good thing or not. I don't think I'm going to get anything out of them. I try to remember what authors don't want fanfic written about their work, but I've never come across any whose work I actually want to write about who have voiced an objection. I don't think I'd write it if the original author objected.

I've read some of the arguments about why fanfic might be considered wrong or stupid or even inferior to original fic and have found none that sway me.

Of course, there is SOME fanfic out there that *IS* stupid and/or written about subjects that make me very uncomfortable from a moral perspective (ie about my personal "squicks") - probably a lot of such fanfic exists, to tell truth. But the same can be said about published original fiction, TV shows, movies and other media. As long as "fanfic" doesn't step beyond its non-profit and source-acknowledging stance, then I personally have no moral problems with endorsing it.

And I look around published literature and wonder where to draw the line in calling something "fanfic". I've read a kinda dark and twisted short story which is a sequel to Jane Austen's novel "Emma", written by one of my favourite mystery authors (Reginald Hill who writes the Dalziel & Pascoe novels). It really fulfills all the criteria for fanfic, but of course wasn't labelled as such. I used to have a fascinating anthology which was a set of short stories retelling HG Wells "War of Worlds" from the POV of various historical persons who would have been alive at that time - again, totally fulfills the criteria for fanfic. These were both examples of clever literary manipulations of previously published works and, honestly, that's what I think fanfic at its best is.

Of course, at less than its best it can be stupid, shallow, facile, annoying and/or offensive. But that's equally true of original fiction.

[/ramble]

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[derry667.livejournal.com]

PS - Didn't really read much of the article and I'm not really sure that the OTW represents "a step forward" for the legitimacy of fanfic.

And I need to go to bed now too.

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[maxinemayer.livejournal.com]

Loved your post and agree particularly with your comments on pro writings which meet the criteria for "fanfic" - it's surprising how much of that there is out there, and how popular it is with readers. My own favorite example concerning Jane Austen would be the series of books by Stephanie Barron (Being A Jane Austen Mystery - ie "Jane and the Barque of Frailty" which is the latest). These books meet not only the criteria for "fanfic" but also for "real person fic!" How derivative can you get and still be considered a "real" writer???? The answer to that is: do you get paid the big bucks for your derivative fiction based on either a book or a person?!

I don't consider Ms. Barron's books either a ripoff or an unsavory use of a real person in a made-up story. I consider her books a lot of fun to read - so much so that I've bought every one of them! She's just a darn good writer and I enjoy her work. If it were fanfic, though, or rps, i.e., if she wasn't paid for her stories, would she still be a "real" writer? I think so!

At any rate, thanks for sharing your ideas on this subject - they prod me to think, too, which I like, a lot! Love, mxm

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Yes, the "fanfic is derivative and therefore inferior!" argument has always struck me as completely ridiculous because, first off, there's nothing written in any genre that doesn't draw upon the work that's come before, and if that wasn't enough, I think anyone can come up with dozens of examples of "pro" fanfic -- some of which are noted in my comment below, but seriously, I think anyone who reads has encountered at least one and probably a lot of books that are based upon famous novels, plays, myths, religious texts or historical figures.

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[derry667.livejournal.com]

These books meet not only the criteria for "fanfic" but also for "real person fic!" How derivative can you get and still be considered a "real" writer????

Yeah. I must admit that Real Person fanfic is one of my personal "not going there" areas. And yet, I love "biopic" novels or movies. I do think that it's not just whether the persons do or have existed or not - for me it's about what the purpose of the story is. If it's just an excuse to write porn or schmaltzy romance, I'm not interested. If it's a serious attempt to understand the motivations, thoughts and actions of a historical figure under certain circumstances, then I'm often fascinated.

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[maxinemayer.livejournal.com]

To tell you the truth, derry 667, I've actually written rps but never would publish it on the internet. However, that was a long time ago - several years, at any rate - and rps and rpf seems to have become very much a given on the net in the intervening years. I still don't think I'd publish my own rps, were I writing it now, but I don't think (anymore) that it really is so terribly intrusive and unethical as I once did (yet still wrote it!). I can't get into biopic novels or movies, though, for some reason.

It's my opinion that most celebrities don't read the rps about them or their significant others. So, what's the harm? When you consider the tabloids and how they intrude on celebs' lives, rpf and rps seems like a tiny drop in the ocean... Which is not to say that, if it's unethical and intrusive, even on a small scale, it's okay.... But I'm torn between thinking it's "harmless" and thinking it's "wrong" and I just can't get myself to come down on one side or the other completely, and make a judgment! For myself, yes: I wouldn't publish anything I wrote along those lines. For others, not so much...

Anyway, I'm still loving any post that makes me think. Thanks for sharing your views.

Love, mxm

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Ironically, from what I've read, RPF actually has better standing from a legal position than fanfic does. The only law that RPF is possibly in violation of, is libel, and I believe one of the standards for libel is that you have to prove malicilious intent to damage a person's reputation, which isn't the case in RPF. Opinions that I've read seem to indicate that RPF could probably stand up to a legal challenge if it was ever issued one.

And yet it squicks the hell out of me. I think the only (amateur) RPF I've read and enjoyed involved dead people. Er, you know what I mean. Long-dead people.

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Yeah ... I think I'm a glutton for punishment or something. The thing is, most of my online social interaction prior to LJ was with non-fanfic people -- fannish in other ways, but not involved in the fanfic subculture and in some cases actively hostile towards it. So I ended up in a lot of these kinds of discussions; I wasn't very open about the extent of my involvement in fanfic (I don't think anybody knew that I'd written a couple of 100,000 word fanfic novels), but I made no secret of the fact that I read and enjoyed and occasionally wrote it.

The depth of vitriole that some "pro" writers direct against fanfic is just baffling to me. Scalzi himself is not that way (at least judging by this discussion). He's pissed me off in the past by equating fanfic with plagiarism, but as pro writers go, he seems to be pretty reasonable; he doesn't mind people writing fanfic of his books as long as nobody shows it to him, which is the de facto position of most fanfic-tolerant pro writers. However, I saw the same thing with some of the "anti-fanfic" commenters in that thread that I used to in those debates all those years ago -- their utter inflexibility, their equating of "legal" with "moral", their evangelical desire to extend their morals to everyone else.

Not that the fanfic people can't be equally evangelical at times. But essentially, I think the pro-fanfic position is a lot more defensible because all we really want is the recognition that what we do over here isn't hurting you over there. Knitters, gardeners, sports fans and stamp collectors don't have to defend their hobbies; why should our right to exist be a matter of controversy? (And of course, I could get started on the absurdity of condemning media fanfic as lacking in creativity when there are tons of celebrated "pro" fanfic like Wicked and Wide Sargasso Sea and The Mists of Avalon and Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead. But I'm preaching to the choir here!)

I'm kinda torn on OTW. I respect their goals and they've got some smart, dedicated people as the driving force behind the organization. (I've got a metric ton of respect for Novik in particular because, although she doesn't go around advertising her fannish identity, she's also quite open about the fact that she does write fanfic. It takes quite a lot of chutzpah for a best-selling writer to spearhead an organization like this one.) But since fanfic exists in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of space, it does make me nervous to have more attention drawn to it from the outside world. The thing is, fanfic is getting higher-profile whether we like it or not, and if we must get the recognition, it's nice to be getting it in the context of something like OTW rather than, say, LJ getting sued for a Harry/Snape/Dobby S&M pornstravaganza.

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[derry667.livejournal.com]

But since fanfic exists in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of space, it does make me nervous to have more attention drawn to it from the outside world. The thing is, fanfic is getting higher-profile whether we like it or not, and if we must get the recognition, it's nice to be getting it in the context of something like OTW rather than, say, LJ getting sued for a Harry/Snape/Dobby S&M pornstravaganza.

Yeah. In some ways, I suppose I have some problem with people trying to drawn fanfic into the light and make it a "respectable" and hence legal endeavour - because it was okay when we were all doing something "not exactly legal, but causing no harm so no one bothered us".

I went back and reread the article in the cool light of day (as opposed to the brain-fried skip-reading that I did last night) and I do understand the points that this Scalzi dude is making. In fact, I don't disagree with much (if anything) he says in this particular article.

There *is* a worry that if fanfic writers suddenly feel legally entitled to do what they do, then the gloves will come off and an all out battle for "draconian" intellectual property rights will ensue. We'll lose our "but they never specifically said that we can't" excuse.

And that worries me because I do lean on that excuse more from a moral standpoint than a legal standpoint. A lot of the stuff I list under my personal "squicks", I find iffy paritally because I feel that it in some ways disrespects the creators (writers and actors). I feel that if I couldn't admit to them that I'd written/vidded/iconed/whatevered it with a clear conscience, then that extends beyond where I'm prepared to go as a fan. And I suppose that I take solace in the fact that for most of the areas that I've been fannish about, they do profess the "turn a blind eye" philosophy - and I'm just not throwing my fannish works in their faces rather than hiding them away in a secret corner. Hmmm... Am I making any sense with that argument.


I've got a metric ton of respect for Novik in particular because, although she doesn't go around advertising her fannish identity, she's also quite open about the fact that she does write fanfic. It takes quite a lot of chutzpah for a best-selling writer to spearhead an organization like this one.

Agreed. I do applaud her ideals. I'm just a little concerned about the fallout in the Real World (which is where I think Scalzi seems to be coming from in this article). But where Novik may be just trying to give fanfic a little more credibility, there is a very real danger that some fanficcers with go "power mad" from even small amounts of entitlement. Scalzi in the article actually mentioned the chick who tried to sell her Star Wars fanfic novel on Amazon and couldn't seem to see why a) Lucasfilm and b) the fanfic community would object.

*deep breath*

*puts on flame-repellant asbestos overcoat*

I hate to say it, but there are a lot of fanfic writers out there who are rabidly histrionic drama queens with hugely overinflated senses of fannish entitlement. Anyone questioning or even not 100% approving of their work and they hit back with what they think their "rights" are and "don't you repress me" and "you're just inhibited" or whatever. They really have no sense of responsiblity or self-control - and they don't think they should have. I can almost understand it in teenagers, but the same applies to people whose children are my age or older! Which is when they are tossed into the "you're just an idiot who doesn't want to really think at all" basket as far as I'm concerned.

So if those kind of people can suddenly quote a respectable author or organisation and twist it to say that they can do basically anything as long as it's in a fannish context and maybe even try to sell it because it's legitimate art... Well, I actually don't think that's a good thing.

I do think fanfic should have limitations - legal and moral ones. The legal will, of course, be set by others. The moral will always be a case of each individual setting them for themselves. I suppose I don't want the legal ones to be set too narrowly nor the moral ones to be set too widely.

*jumps into a foxhole*

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

Gee derry667, you really need to learn not to hold back. Tell us how you really feel. Not that I don't disagree with you. So, jumping in the foxhole right next to you.

Back during the uproar about the HP porn on LJ some people saying that the (fanfic/fanart) community should be able to police itself. Which would be all well in good - except for the fact as you said if you say something makes you uncomfortable it is on you...so in effect there are no "community standards" because there is a such a strong "chilling effect" when it comes to speaking out about erotic art and/or fic.

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

One of these days, I want to make a long thinky post about fanfic vs. original writing

I'd like to read this.

- Helen

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I ought to write it ... I've got a lot of thoughts on the subject, especially since I did the reverse of most people and moved from original writing to fanfic rather than the other way around.

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link. The OP seems to making some every good points and does raise some of the issues that I am concerned about.

I too would love to hear (or rather read) your thoughts on fanfic. I have my own thoughts about it, which I may or may not post at some point as it would have more to do with the"just a hobby" thing I see pop up from time to time.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested to see what you had to say! Maybe I'll try to organize my thoughts into something resembling coherency later today. My thoughts on it change from time to time, although my fundamental belief in its right to exist doesn't change and probably never will.

[wolfenm.livejournal.com]

Oooooh, don't remind me of the argument that article I wrote started. I had barely even begun writing for the organisation in question when that veritable flame war started on that board, and I almost quit the zine because of it. XD Seriously, I practically got an ulcer over it. I am far too empathic & sensitive for my own good. XD

Me, I try too limit my ficcing to venues where the franchise is either dead or I know for a fact that the creator okays it (even if the publisher might not *sough*). Happily, Buffy, Stargate, and Harry Potter all fit the latter criteria. ;) But I also tend to avoid the works of creators who are anti-fic, especially if they apporach it from a "I don't want you playing with my toys" standpoint (like I've heard that Robert Jordan was like) rather than a "I'm afraid of losing my livelihood" stance. The way I see it, if they don't want people to be inspired by their works and imagine new journeys for the characters, then they should keep 'em to themselves, ya know? It's like giving me my fave food when I'm starving and telling me I can only smell and look at it, not taste -- it's an act of cruelty. I don't always want to eat my own leg.

We have thousands of years of history of people taking stories and reimagining them from their own perspective: mythology and how it changes over time is undeniable proof of that. It's only within teh last century that we've tried to forbid the sharing of stories, and frankly? I find that to be unnatural. It's the nature of humanity to use common icons to communicate -- Harry and Buffy are no less mythological to us now than Hercules or Moses. And it's not like I actively seek the stories -- they pour into my mind like a flood: either I disperse the "water" by sharing it or I drown ....

Oy, sorry for rambling (and preaching to the choir?)

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten that it was your article that prompted the Great Fanfic Flame War! Actually, though, I think that one was the second one we'd had, which was why Pam and I made the "no discussing of fanfic!" rule.

But I also tend to avoid the works of creators who are anti-fic, especially if they apporach it from a "I don't want you playing with my toys" standpoint (like I've heard that Robert Jordan was like) rather than a "I'm afraid of losing my livelihood" stance.

Yeah. I'm the same way. I don't see anything odd in that; there are other writers I won't read because I'm deeply offended by other aspects of their personal beliefs, as expressed in interviews, or their public personas. (Orson Scott Card comes to mind here ...) In my case, I'm not sure if it's even so much a desire not to give the writers my money, as it is simply not enjoying their books because I'm too acutely aware of whatever it was about them that turned me off in the first place.

And yes, you are preaching to the choir; I'm hugely supportive of people's right to make fanworks, and of the rich history that we have of stories being re-imagined and re-interpreted. At the same time, as mentioned above, I'm a little conflicted (well, actually a lot conflicted) when it comes to fanworks that I see as being invasive of a person's privacy or counter to the author's intentions for a work. It's not that I don't feel they have a right to exist or even enjoy them in some cases, but I feel a bit guilty and conflicted about it.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I've been wanting to comment, but wasn't sure what to say. I'm not a big "thinky" type - in that I think, but can never convey what I have in my head (which seems all neat and organized) into words (when it all goes to heck and makes me regret saying anything.) But I do like to try (it's good practice, if nothing else.)

For starters - I adore fanfiction, and was so thrilled to discover that it was possible to not only think up and write your own episodes to your favorite shows, movies, books, etc, but that there were places to post them. And I'd hoped that, one day, my own works would become popular enough for someone to want to do a fanfic story of them.

Then, I ran into less that savory stories and stories that had left me ill for days, and suddenly the prospect of seeing one of my works made into fanfic wasn't so nifty. However, though I've voiced the possibility of not opening my works to fanfic, knowing me and people in general, I know that's not going to happen. Which is why I liked the part where Scalzi said he's okay with people doing fanfic of his stuff... as long as he doesn't see it. That actually made me feel better, because I know I won't try to stop people from doing fanfic of my stuff: not only because it would be hypocritical of me, but also because writing fanfic is so much fun, and I wouldn't want to begrudge anyone of that.

So, like you, I'm conflicted about a lot of it. I do think fanfic is a good thing - it's fun, a good way to better ones writing style, and so on - but the directions people have taken the characters and stories, the things they've had the characters do, makes me sympathize with those writers who have no love for fanfic (for that reason, and not just because of money or copyright issues). I would hate to come across a story that had my characters doing things, or having things done to them, that left me sick for days.

Not that it can be stopped. Even authors who said "you can't do fanfic of my work" probably don't know that, somewhere out there, is fanfic of their work. But, still, I understand if the dislike comes from a need to protect what they had created.

At the same time, however, neither is it really fair to ban others, as you put it, "from playing in their sandbox" out of fear over particular squicks. It was only a few years ago that Ann McCafferty lifted the ban that didn't allow artists to do fanart based on her books. I found the ban unfair. I do understand if it was due to certain squicks, but that meant artists who respected her books and wanted to do fanart for that reason were also banned.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Many authors have a "don't show me your fanfic" policy for legal reasons -- to avoid possibly being accused of using an idea too similar to one in the fic. But it also neatly sidesteps the problem of being squicked by what people write; you don't really have to *know*.

I suppose part of the problem I have is that it's really hard for me to relate, emotionally, to being squicked by a story to an extent that doesn't end when you click the back button. There are certain kinds of stories that squick me quite badly, but I'm not bothered by the fact that people do them; I just don't want to read them. Actually, honestly? The idea that bothers me most, I think, is people writing BAD fanfic about my work! You know ... poorly spelled, dreadfully plotted stuff. Of course, there's no way to prevent that, and I wouldn't want to stop someone from making a stab at it anyway. It's the only way to learn...

On the other hand, I haven't really ever been "tested" -- I've only ever had two pieces of fanfic written on my original work, both of which were sweet and very canon-compliant (and both of which I "published", one in a minicomic and the other on my website; in fact, I did illustrations for one of them).

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"I suppose part of the problem I have is that it's really hard for me to relate, emotionally, to being squicked by a story to an extent that doesn't end when you click the back button."

Man, I wish it were that easy for me. I'm a very hyper-sensitive person, both physically and mentally, and I have a very sharp (sometimes too sharp) imagination. So images, even just the tiniset snippet or sampling - whether a picture or something written - gets into my head, it can stay there for the longest time. As well as pop up at the worst possible time, for no reason. Most of the time, it's easy enough to ignore, and eventually (sometimes months, sometimes years) these images will fade. But I think it's worse with fanfic becuase it's my favorite characters doing these squicky things that get stuck in my head.

So, yeah, it's made me a little prematurely protective of my characters.

On the flip-side, I'm actually a fan of the idea of playing in a universe someone else created. I'd like to do a Star Wars novel oneday, myself, even if I only get to put it up on a fanfic site. I have certain stories - big epics - that if they become popular enough for others to want to do a story set in that universe and have it published (like with what's done in Dragonlance 'verse) then I'd gladly let them. Because, as I said in my first coment, it's fun. The thing is, when it comes to others doing published spinoffs, they're usually very respectful about it and try to stick with what the original author had started. In unpublished fanfic, people tend to go a little nuts with what they have the characters do.

So, there really isn't a happy medium to this except for the rule of "what you don't know, can't hurt you."

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

Heh, I was trying to figure out what OTW stood for so typed OTW and fanfic into google and this post was hit #1!

- Helen

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Eek! *squeaks* That's ... sort of embarrassing. Too bad I don't have anything more profound to say!

[(Anonymous)]

I don't have problems with fanfics if they are based on tv series or cinema shows (not based on published books)as the media is different. I feel differently on fanfics based on published novels as it can affect the writer's income. After all, if there is a wealth of *good* fanfics written, readers might be less inclined to purchase the actual books written by the author themselves, which also affects not only the pro writer but also the investment of the publishers too.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I do know people who feel much that way about fanfic -- that media fandom is one thing, book fandom another, because fanfic competes with the original books on the same playing field (i.e. both are text media). Honestly, though, it's hard for me to conceive of circumstances under which that would be the case. The reason, basically, is that book fandoms are so incredibly tiny; the fanfics based on a book reach only a tiny fraction of the circulation of the book itself. The only book fandoms that are big enough that they *might* actually run the risk of doing what you describe are those like Harry Potter and LOTR, which are so huge anyway that any sales they might lose on fanfics are probably more than offset by new readers who are brought in by fanfics (which was how I originally got into Harry Potter and why I now own all the books ... in hardcover!).

On strictly emotional grounds, though, I've always been a little warier of writing in book fandoms than in media fandoms. It feels more like toe-stepping; I'm acutely aware that a book is someone's baby in a way that media works tend not to be.

(Also, I don't mind anonymous comments, but would you mind signing a name? It doesn't have to be your real one, but just so that I know what to call you; it can get confusing if there are a bunch of anonymi around ...)

[(Anonymous)]

I think a lot of protest you get from pro writers is because they feel ownership towards the characters and worlds that they worked hard to create - as you put it, it's their 'baby'. If they are making a living of it, it matters a lot. I found it interesting to know that you bought the actual HP books because of reading fanfics. That's a surprisingly positive outcome which has made me change my opinion somewhat that perhaps *good* fanfic is way better than totally misrepresented fanfic. But then bad or worse yet, totally misrepresented fanfics can have the opposite effect on new potential readers of said book.

I like the idea of copyright privileges being enforced during a writer's lifetime. After their death, then it's open ground for anyone who wants to play with them. I don't think protecting pro writers' rights stifles creativity as people can always write their own stories without resorting to using published novels' characters. I think there's a difference between a person writing a scratching review telling readers what they didn't like about a work to fanfics that totally misrepresent the characters of a published work. For one, reviewers are not taking *ownership* for the said published characters (though they can cause much damage to sales, etc, which can be devastating to the writer). Fanfic writers on the other hand (though they do not legally own them) take ownership (by default) by placing the said characters in situations and making them react to how they want them to react. As someone mentioned in this post (it might have been you - I only skipped though the other comments quickly), there is power in the pen. Words can heal or they can hurt.

A pro writer who might want to spread a positive message to their readers would not want to see the characters they took long and hard to create being represented as bad role models in fanfics. Of course, they can't prevent such things from happening but pro writers, I think, are happier not knowing about them. Then there's the whole issue of what if the pro writer unknowingly wrote a story that had similarities with a particular fanfic? It just makes things messy with slanders of 'you stole my idea' etc.

Yes, that was me who posted above…

Tyme

[iamrighthere.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you pointed me to OTW. I've since read way too many posts on the subject of fanfic's illegality, derivitiveness and overall immorality. And then read way too many posts stating quite the opposite. Would anyone really asks courts to intervene on the matter? After all, what's the difference between playing SGA Barbie with my kids' long-forgotten dolls and writing up a story and posting it on the Internet? Oh, well. If it's fun, harmless and free, it's bound to be restricted by someone somehow.