sholio | OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

I can't believe that I just spent three hours reading all 400+ comments at John Scalzi's blog entry on the Organization for Transformative Works (and there are probably a lot more comments now, but I WILL NOT READ THEM because I have to sleep at some point).

It was actually a remarkably civil, reasonable and pleasant discussion. Or maybe I've just been unlucky enough to get sucked into exceedingly unpleasant discussions in my earlier fannish existence, when the topic of fanfic came up between fanfic people and pro writer people.

I actually created this fan journal back in '04 in large part because a lot of the readership of my original journal,

glacierdust, had been involved in those discussions, and a few of the people who knew me in real life (who I still wanted to stay on good terms with) were vehemently anti-fanfic. I didn't use my glacierdust journal for my fanning because I didn't want to get into a fight every time I posted something fanfic-positive. Looking back on it, I think I might have been unreasonably sensitive on the topic; still, there had been some nasty fights on the comics message board where I used to be (and technically still am) a co-moderator, to the point where the other mod and I actually banned the topic of fanfic completely, because people couldn't discuss it in a civil manner.

It made me happy to find everyone (well, almost everyone) on Scalzi's board discussing the topic like reasonable adults. It also made me happy to see the fanfic side being represented by a lot of articulate, smart, well-spoken people, and most (not all, but most) of the WTF-ery happening on the "anti-fanfic" side.

One of these days, I want to make a long thinky post about fanfic vs. original writing, and my relationship to both -- the changes my opinions on both have gone through over the years, the ways I've shuffled back and forth between the two of them until coming to the rewarding balance that I have now (which may change again in the future), the way that I feel they complement each other rather than being in opposition. But right now, I'm sleepy and I have the last 50 pages of Temeraire book 3 to finish, so I think I'll go do that instead.

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To tell you the truth, derry 667, I've actually written rps but never would publish it on the internet. However, that was a long time ago - several years, at any rate - and rps and rpf seems to have become very much a given on the net in the intervening years. I still don't think I'd publish my own rps, were I writing it now, but I don't think (anymore) that it really is so terribly intrusive and unethical as I once did (yet still wrote it!). I can't get into biopic novels or movies, though, for some reason.

It's my opinion that most celebrities don't read the rps about them or their significant others. So, what's the harm? When you consider the tabloids and how they intrude on celebs' lives, rpf and rps seems like a tiny drop in the ocean... Which is not to say that, if it's unethical and intrusive, even on a small scale, it's okay.... But I'm torn between thinking it's "harmless" and thinking it's "wrong" and I just can't get myself to come down on one side or the other completely, and make a judgment! For myself, yes: I wouldn't publish anything I wrote along those lines. For others, not so much...

Anyway, I'm still loving any post that makes me think. Thanks for sharing your views.

Love, mxm

RPS/RPF is one of those things that squicks me personally. But it doesn't actually squick me any worse than the tabloids do. I suppose that I am bothered by both of them on similar grounds (that it's invasive of people's privacy and feels kind of unethical to me) but I recognize their right to exist and would never crusade to shut them down or have it taken off the Internet -- if that makes any sense.

Makes plenty of sense! It's just such a complex issue: free speech, right to privacy, etc. It's hard to know where to start. Of course, if one just goes for black and white, it's clearly unethical and intrusive (i.e., wrong) to publish RPS and RPF. But shades of gray do exist, and it's hard to see the actual harm such writing does.... Anyway, thanks for the interesting discussion! Love, mxm

It's my opinion that most celebrities don't read the rps about them or their significant others. So, what's the harm?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but as you say, that's your opinion. It may be true, but it also may be not true. That doesn't mean you are wrong to think it or even act upon it. We all make choices based on our own opinions. But I'm just saying that just because you or I say "I believe this to be so" - doesn't mean it reflects the true facts. I did hear that the then girlfriend (now wife) of Ioan Gruffudd was terribly upset by things she read at one of "his" websites. And I seem to remember Jensen Ackles once saying that his mum reads the websites about him. Now some may say that if Mrs Ackles chooses to read something labelled "Jared/Jensen NC-17 PWP" then she only has herself to blame, but just the idea that someone's mother might stumble onto that make me somewhat uncomfortable.

On the other hand, we had a discussion about RPF/RPS over at my LJ a while back and someone said that they wrote bandslash RPS porn about a band where the bandmembers had actually said that they were okay with it being written. So y'know, we really can't make "iron clad" assumptions.

I've heard Joe Flanigan speak at a con and when one fan started to ask about his relationship with David Hewlett, he interrupted with "It's platonic!" - but he said it with a knowing smile. Similarly, I've seen a clip of Jared Padalecki hugging Jensen Ackles at a con on YouTube and immediately after, the Ackles boy said "Yeah, there's no way that isn't going to be on Ebay by tomorrow". So the implication is that they are aware it goes on. But if they did actually voice an objection to it, would they be hit by a fandom backlash? People have said that they feel less inclined to read authors who prohibit fanfic being written about their work. Would something similar apply to the work of actors who said they really would rather people didn't write pornagraphic fic about them? Not saying it would, but it's an aspect to consider.

But I'm not saying that RPF/RPS is EVIL! Or that people who write/read it are Going to The Special Hell (although many of them like think say they are). When I say, that it's a "no go zone" for me, I really do mean that it's just somewhere where I personally choose not to go. It is a moral decision - but a morality that guides my own personal actions and not anyone else's.

And yeah, I don't read the tabloids either. Then again, you don't have to actually read them yourself these. There are plenty of people will to tell you unasked that so-an-so's a skank based on what the tabloids have said.

On the other hand, I'll readily admit that I enjoy hearing stories about how well the cast of SGA and Supernatural and Doctor Who (and others) get along. I love seeing them play off each other and make jokes at each at each other's expense and the ideas that the are friends. So I'm not sure if that begins to be a bit of a double standard either (I don't like the tabloid goss, but I like the "happy" goss that you hear through fandom).

For me, it's not about judging what others do, it's about thinking about what I do and why I do it from a moral perspective.

It IS complicated, isn't it? To say the least. Yes, I agree, one of the reasons why I'd never publish any rps I wrote myself is just the one you mentioned - what if they, or their mom, or their significant other, or their kids, read it, even by accident (perhaps not understanding it was slash or sexual?)? It makes me uncomfortable, too!

I don't think it should be a question of whether it's "okay" with certain celebrities that rps or rpf is written about them. They are just as apt as we are to be mistaken in what they think is "harmless!" It's a conscious choice on our part if we write it; but it may not be a conscious choice (with true understanding of the ramifications) on the part of a celeb when they say they're "okay" with it. It's not really their choice to make FOR US (unless it becomes illegal). (I'm not sure what the legalities are at this time - "under the radar" seems to be an iffy legal stance!)

In total accord with you on two points: that the stories written in the tabloids seep into our collective consciousness without any real effort on our part, and; that I like to hear about "warm fuzzies" among the actors in my favorite shows (and would hate to hear about "bad blood" among them, too). All of which means - who, me, "human being, here!" Grin!

If I ever got around to writing fanfic again, this question of rpf and rps would cease to be an intellectual exercise and become a real choice. I like to read it; I like to write it; I won't publish it. At least, that's been my moral judgment in the past, for myself, not for others. But after so many years, I'm wondering if I'd still stand firm about not publishing any rps or rpf, if I actually wrote any now. There's the pressure to publish (and if all you've been working on, all that is inspiring you, is rps or rpf, it's hard not to put it out there), the pressure to receive recognition for your work, the desire to receive positive feedback and be admired for your work, as well. So, it's hard to say until I'm faced by it, what I'd do now.

And yes, I still like to think about these things, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk a little about them, too.

Love, Max

I don't think it should be a question of whether it's "okay" with certain celebrities that rps or rpf is written about them. They are just as apt as we are to be mistaken in what they think is "harmless!" It's a conscious choice on our part if we write it; but it may not be a conscious choice (with true understanding of the ramifications) on the part of a celeb when they say they're "okay" with it. It's not really their choice to make FOR US (unless it becomes illegal). (I'm not sure what the legalities are at this time - "under the radar" seems to be an iffy legal stance!)

Oh yes, it's definitely a question of each fan making the decision for themselves what they are prepared to read/write/watch/etc. The celebs in question can't make the choice for them. I wasn't saying that.

I'm just saying that part of what holds me back is I don't want to offend or insult the REAL PEOPLE who are the subjects of RPF/RPS. If some celeb says that they don't mind people writing homoerotic porn (and it was apparently actually described to him as that) about him and his friends/co-workers, well then it does make it less likely that I would cause offence if I wanted to write RPS about him. I personally still wouldn't do it, but I can understand others being very much at ease with writing RPS bandslash about that particular band if the bandmembers themselves have openly endorsed it that way.

Still the writer's choice, either way, but the reasons they may or may not choose to could be affected by the celeb giving consent.

This is actually something that I have trouble with as far as (fanfic) porn in general, and slash in specific. I'm always going to be essentially gen-oriented and friendship-focused; that's been true ever since I can remember and I can see no reason why it would ever change. But I also like to explore a wide range of human relationships in my fiction, and SGA is actually the first fandom I've been really into that doesn't offer me at least one couple to play with. I'm starting to miss having that extra relationship/couple/parent/child dynamic to work with. Since I've been reading more slash lately, it's probably only natural that I'd want to try writing it and see what that was like -- but I can't really get past the idea that I'm taking real people and using their likeness in a way that they might not approve. I think it'd be a lot easier for me in a fandom that wasn't live-action -- I don't get the same squickiness off playing with animated characters or book characters in that way. At this point, at least, I can't get past the idea that I'm appropriating real actors for that purpose, even if it's technically their characters that I'd be playing with.

Yes, of course, a big part of what holds us back is a desire not to offend the celebrities involved.

And also, for me, the desire not to tarnish the public image/perception of actors whom I admire and respect - not to say, love! More from that point of view than the other, I think. I suppose I might cringe if I wrote RPS about an actor and he saw it: but I'd be unbearably distressed if my RPS about him caused others to view him negatively.

Anyway, it's a pleasure reading your posts and thinking about them! I wish you and all those you love happy holidays and a very healthy, happy and productive new year in 2008!

Love, Max

And every joy, peace and good fortune to you and yours as well!

Love, Derry

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OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

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