sholio | OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

I can't believe that I just spent three hours reading all 400+ comments at John Scalzi's blog entry on the Organization for Transformative Works (and there are probably a lot more comments now, but I WILL NOT READ THEM because I have to sleep at some point).

It was actually a remarkably civil, reasonable and pleasant discussion. Or maybe I've just been unlucky enough to get sucked into exceedingly unpleasant discussions in my earlier fannish existence, when the topic of fanfic came up between fanfic people and pro writer people.

I actually created this fan journal back in '04 in large part because a lot of the readership of my original journal,

glacierdust, had been involved in those discussions, and a few of the people who knew me in real life (who I still wanted to stay on good terms with) were vehemently anti-fanfic. I didn't use my glacierdust journal for my fanning because I didn't want to get into a fight every time I posted something fanfic-positive. Looking back on it, I think I might have been unreasonably sensitive on the topic; still, there had been some nasty fights on the comics message board where I used to be (and technically still am) a co-moderator, to the point where the other mod and I actually banned the topic of fanfic completely, because people couldn't discuss it in a civil manner.

It made me happy to find everyone (well, almost everyone) on Scalzi's board discussing the topic like reasonable adults. It also made me happy to see the fanfic side being represented by a lot of articulate, smart, well-spoken people, and most (not all, but most) of the WTF-ery happening on the "anti-fanfic" side.

One of these days, I want to make a long thinky post about fanfic vs. original writing, and my relationship to both -- the changes my opinions on both have gone through over the years, the ways I've shuffled back and forth between the two of them until coming to the rewarding balance that I have now (which may change again in the future), the way that I feel they complement each other rather than being in opposition. But right now, I'm sleepy and I have the last 50 pages of Temeraire book 3 to finish, so I think I'll go do that instead.

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It IS complicated, isn't it? To say the least. Yes, I agree, one of the reasons why I'd never publish any rps I wrote myself is just the one you mentioned - what if they, or their mom, or their significant other, or their kids, read it, even by accident (perhaps not understanding it was slash or sexual?)? It makes me uncomfortable, too!

I don't think it should be a question of whether it's "okay" with certain celebrities that rps or rpf is written about them. They are just as apt as we are to be mistaken in what they think is "harmless!" It's a conscious choice on our part if we write it; but it may not be a conscious choice (with true understanding of the ramifications) on the part of a celeb when they say they're "okay" with it. It's not really their choice to make FOR US (unless it becomes illegal). (I'm not sure what the legalities are at this time - "under the radar" seems to be an iffy legal stance!)

In total accord with you on two points: that the stories written in the tabloids seep into our collective consciousness without any real effort on our part, and; that I like to hear about "warm fuzzies" among the actors in my favorite shows (and would hate to hear about "bad blood" among them, too). All of which means - who, me, "human being, here!" Grin!

If I ever got around to writing fanfic again, this question of rpf and rps would cease to be an intellectual exercise and become a real choice. I like to read it; I like to write it; I won't publish it. At least, that's been my moral judgment in the past, for myself, not for others. But after so many years, I'm wondering if I'd still stand firm about not publishing any rps or rpf, if I actually wrote any now. There's the pressure to publish (and if all you've been working on, all that is inspiring you, is rps or rpf, it's hard not to put it out there), the pressure to receive recognition for your work, the desire to receive positive feedback and be admired for your work, as well. So, it's hard to say until I'm faced by it, what I'd do now.

And yes, I still like to think about these things, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk a little about them, too.

Love, Max

I don't think it should be a question of whether it's "okay" with certain celebrities that rps or rpf is written about them. They are just as apt as we are to be mistaken in what they think is "harmless!" It's a conscious choice on our part if we write it; but it may not be a conscious choice (with true understanding of the ramifications) on the part of a celeb when they say they're "okay" with it. It's not really their choice to make FOR US (unless it becomes illegal). (I'm not sure what the legalities are at this time - "under the radar" seems to be an iffy legal stance!)

Oh yes, it's definitely a question of each fan making the decision for themselves what they are prepared to read/write/watch/etc. The celebs in question can't make the choice for them. I wasn't saying that.

I'm just saying that part of what holds me back is I don't want to offend or insult the REAL PEOPLE who are the subjects of RPF/RPS. If some celeb says that they don't mind people writing homoerotic porn (and it was apparently actually described to him as that) about him and his friends/co-workers, well then it does make it less likely that I would cause offence if I wanted to write RPS about him. I personally still wouldn't do it, but I can understand others being very much at ease with writing RPS bandslash about that particular band if the bandmembers themselves have openly endorsed it that way.

Still the writer's choice, either way, but the reasons they may or may not choose to could be affected by the celeb giving consent.

This is actually something that I have trouble with as far as (fanfic) porn in general, and slash in specific. I'm always going to be essentially gen-oriented and friendship-focused; that's been true ever since I can remember and I can see no reason why it would ever change. But I also like to explore a wide range of human relationships in my fiction, and SGA is actually the first fandom I've been really into that doesn't offer me at least one couple to play with. I'm starting to miss having that extra relationship/couple/parent/child dynamic to work with. Since I've been reading more slash lately, it's probably only natural that I'd want to try writing it and see what that was like -- but I can't really get past the idea that I'm taking real people and using their likeness in a way that they might not approve. I think it'd be a lot easier for me in a fandom that wasn't live-action -- I don't get the same squickiness off playing with animated characters or book characters in that way. At this point, at least, I can't get past the idea that I'm appropriating real actors for that purpose, even if it's technically their characters that I'd be playing with.

Yes, of course, a big part of what holds us back is a desire not to offend the celebrities involved.

And also, for me, the desire not to tarnish the public image/perception of actors whom I admire and respect - not to say, love! More from that point of view than the other, I think. I suppose I might cringe if I wrote RPS about an actor and he saw it: but I'd be unbearably distressed if my RPS about him caused others to view him negatively.

Anyway, it's a pleasure reading your posts and thinking about them! I wish you and all those you love happy holidays and a very healthy, happy and productive new year in 2008!

Love, Max

And every joy, peace and good fortune to you and yours as well!

Love, Derry

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