sholio | OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

I can't believe that I just spent three hours reading all 400+ comments at John Scalzi's blog entry on the Organization for Transformative Works (and there are probably a lot more comments now, but I WILL NOT READ THEM because I have to sleep at some point).

It was actually a remarkably civil, reasonable and pleasant discussion. Or maybe I've just been unlucky enough to get sucked into exceedingly unpleasant discussions in my earlier fannish existence, when the topic of fanfic came up between fanfic people and pro writer people.

I actually created this fan journal back in '04 in large part because a lot of the readership of my original journal,

glacierdust, had been involved in those discussions, and a few of the people who knew me in real life (who I still wanted to stay on good terms with) were vehemently anti-fanfic. I didn't use my glacierdust journal for my fanning because I didn't want to get into a fight every time I posted something fanfic-positive. Looking back on it, I think I might have been unreasonably sensitive on the topic; still, there had been some nasty fights on the comics message board where I used to be (and technically still am) a co-moderator, to the point where the other mod and I actually banned the topic of fanfic completely, because people couldn't discuss it in a civil manner.

It made me happy to find everyone (well, almost everyone) on Scalzi's board discussing the topic like reasonable adults. It also made me happy to see the fanfic side being represented by a lot of articulate, smart, well-spoken people, and most (not all, but most) of the WTF-ery happening on the "anti-fanfic" side.

One of these days, I want to make a long thinky post about fanfic vs. original writing, and my relationship to both -- the changes my opinions on both have gone through over the years, the ways I've shuffled back and forth between the two of them until coming to the rewarding balance that I have now (which may change again in the future), the way that I feel they complement each other rather than being in opposition. But right now, I'm sleepy and I have the last 50 pages of Temeraire book 3 to finish, so I think I'll go do that instead.

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Yeah ... I think I'm a glutton for punishment or something. The thing is, most of my online social interaction prior to LJ was with non-fanfic people -- fannish in other ways, but not involved in the fanfic subculture and in some cases actively hostile towards it. So I ended up in a lot of these kinds of discussions; I wasn't very open about the extent of my involvement in fanfic (I don't think anybody knew that I'd written a couple of 100,000 word fanfic novels), but I made no secret of the fact that I read and enjoyed and occasionally wrote it.

The depth of vitriole that some "pro" writers direct against fanfic is just baffling to me. Scalzi himself is not that way (at least judging by this discussion). He's pissed me off in the past by equating fanfic with plagiarism, but as pro writers go, he seems to be pretty reasonable; he doesn't mind people writing fanfic of his books as long as nobody shows it to him, which is the de facto position of most fanfic-tolerant pro writers. However, I saw the same thing with some of the "anti-fanfic" commenters in that thread that I used to in those debates all those years ago -- their utter inflexibility, their equating of "legal" with "moral", their evangelical desire to extend their morals to everyone else.

Not that the fanfic people can't be equally evangelical at times. But essentially, I think the pro-fanfic position is a lot more defensible because all we really want is the recognition that what we do over here isn't hurting you over there. Knitters, gardeners, sports fans and stamp collectors don't have to defend their hobbies; why should our right to exist be a matter of controversy? (And of course, I could get started on the absurdity of condemning media fanfic as lacking in creativity when there are tons of celebrated "pro" fanfic like Wicked and Wide Sargasso Sea and The Mists of Avalon and Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead. But I'm preaching to the choir here!)

I'm kinda torn on OTW. I respect their goals and they've got some smart, dedicated people as the driving force behind the organization. (I've got a metric ton of respect for Novik in particular because, although she doesn't go around advertising her fannish identity, she's also quite open about the fact that she does write fanfic. It takes quite a lot of chutzpah for a best-selling writer to spearhead an organization like this one.) But since fanfic exists in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of space, it does make me nervous to have more attention drawn to it from the outside world. The thing is, fanfic is getting higher-profile whether we like it or not, and if we must get the recognition, it's nice to be getting it in the context of something like OTW rather than, say, LJ getting sued for a Harry/Snape/Dobby S&M pornstravaganza.

But since fanfic exists in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of space, it does make me nervous to have more attention drawn to it from the outside world. The thing is, fanfic is getting higher-profile whether we like it or not, and if we must get the recognition, it's nice to be getting it in the context of something like OTW rather than, say, LJ getting sued for a Harry/Snape/Dobby S&M pornstravaganza.

Yeah. In some ways, I suppose I have some problem with people trying to drawn fanfic into the light and make it a "respectable" and hence legal endeavour - because it was okay when we were all doing something "not exactly legal, but causing no harm so no one bothered us".

I went back and reread the article in the cool light of day (as opposed to the brain-fried skip-reading that I did last night) and I do understand the points that this Scalzi dude is making. In fact, I don't disagree with much (if anything) he says in this particular article.

There *is* a worry that if fanfic writers suddenly feel legally entitled to do what they do, then the gloves will come off and an all out battle for "draconian" intellectual property rights will ensue. We'll lose our "but they never specifically said that we can't" excuse.

And that worries me because I do lean on that excuse more from a moral standpoint than a legal standpoint. A lot of the stuff I list under my personal "squicks", I find iffy paritally because I feel that it in some ways disrespects the creators (writers and actors). I feel that if I couldn't admit to them that I'd written/vidded/iconed/whatevered it with a clear conscience, then that extends beyond where I'm prepared to go as a fan. And I suppose that I take solace in the fact that for most of the areas that I've been fannish about, they do profess the "turn a blind eye" philosophy - and I'm just not throwing my fannish works in their faces rather than hiding them away in a secret corner. Hmmm... Am I making any sense with that argument.

I've got a metric ton of respect for Novik in particular because, although she doesn't go around advertising her fannish identity, she's also quite open about the fact that she does write fanfic. It takes quite a lot of chutzpah for a best-selling writer to spearhead an organization like this one.

Agreed. I do applaud her ideals. I'm just a little concerned about the fallout in the Real World (which is where I think Scalzi seems to be coming from in this article). But where Novik may be just trying to give fanfic a little more credibility, there is a very real danger that some fanficcers with go "power mad" from even small amounts of entitlement. Scalzi in the article actually mentioned the chick who tried to sell her Star Wars fanfic novel on Amazon and couldn't seem to see why a) Lucasfilm and b) the fanfic community would object.

*deep breath*

*puts on flame-repellant asbestos overcoat*

I hate to say it, but there are a lot of fanfic writers out there who are rabidly histrionic drama queens with hugely overinflated senses of fannish entitlement. Anyone questioning or even not 100% approving of their work and they hit back with what they think their "rights" are and "don't you repress me" and "you're just inhibited" or whatever. They really have no sense of responsiblity or self-control - and they don't think they should have. I can almost understand it in teenagers, but the same applies to people whose children are my age or older! Which is when they are tossed into the "you're just an idiot who doesn't want to really think at all" basket as far as I'm concerned.

So if those kind of people can suddenly quote a respectable author or organisation and twist it to say that they can do basically anything as long as it's in a fannish context and maybe even try to sell it because it's legitimate art... Well, I actually don't think that's a good thing.

I do think fanfic should have limitations - legal and moral ones. The legal will, of course, be set by others. The moral will always be a case of each individual setting them for themselves. I suppose I don't want the legal ones to be set too narrowly nor the moral ones to be set too widely.

*jumps into a foxhole*

Gee

derry667, you really need to learn not to hold back. Tell us how you really feel. Not that I don't disagree with you. So, jumping in the foxhole right next to you.

Back during the uproar about the HP porn on LJ some people saying that the (fanfic/fanart) community should be able to police itself. Which would be all well in good - except for the fact as you said if you say something makes you uncomfortable it is on you...so in effect there are no "community standards" because there is a such a strong "chilling effect" when it comes to speaking out about erotic art and/or fic.

Back during the uproar about the HP porn on LJ some people saying that the (fanfic/fanart) community should be able to police itself.

Yes, as you say, it's a fine idea in principle, but with not "standards" to work with how do you "police" it? And who guards the guards, anyway?

So far, the only attempts that I've seen at policing what may and may not be used in fanworks are attempts to stop people using other fans work in their own creations.

"Clip theft" is the one that springs to mind. I kinda understand those who object to long edited sequences being taken - but there are many who object to someone even cropping out single clips or even pics out of a vid. Some used to complain because they had to rip it from the DVD themselves and so others shouldn't get the benefit without "doing all the hard work" and/or spending the money the original vidder did. I've seen witch hunts and "public shamings" over this issue - even done to those who made the transgression in ignorance because they didn't know it was such a "sin" to "steal from another fan" - who'd already stolen it from the original source, really. I must admit that rabid anti-clip theft zealotry flabbergasts me.

I've also seen some fanfic writers get absolutely rabid when another writer used one of their OCs in a fic. I've seen one fic writer who lost no time at all in killing off such an OC in a short fic a day or so after she found out - because the OC had now been "tainted" and she could never use said OC in a story again without "feeling sick".

Did I say something about histrionic drama queens?

I've also seen some fanfic writers get absolutely rabid when another writer used one of their OCs in a fic. I've seen one fic writer who lost no time at all in killing off such an OC in a short fic a day or so after she found out - because the OC had now been "tainted" and she could never use said OC in a story again without "feeling sick".

There are many things I love about fannish subculture, but if there is one single thing I HATE, it's this (and the rabid anti-cliptheft mentality, as well).

You mentioned below that what really ticks you off is people who don't think. I can certainly understand that, but I think my gigantic, "makes me so mad I could explode" button is HYPOCRISY.

And any fan who makes fanworks and doesn't give other fans tacit permission to reuse and rework them is a gigantic hypocrite. Wanting CREDIT is entirely fine. We always credit our canon source material in fandom, never trying to pass it off as our original creation. (To do otherwise would be plagiarism.) And since fanworks are much more obscure, credit would be even more important. It's really obvious that Average Fan didn't create John Sheppard, but much less obvious that she didn't create Mary Lou the OC.

But it still makes me want to SPIT NAILS every time I see a disclaimer on a piece of fanwork that "I don't own anything except Mary Lou, she's mine and please don't re-use her" or "This icon is not a base; don't add your own text" or "My fanart may not be used for icon-making". If that's how you feel, then WTF are you doing in FANDOM? How in the world do you justify that YOU can create unauthorized fanwork based on someone else's words and images, but forbid others to do the same with yours? *seethes*

And yeah, it did tick me off to see the number of fan people in the Scalzi thread who were bending over backwards trying to come up with justifications for that aspect of fannish mentality while still insisting that THEY have the right to do as they will with the canon source material. Sometimes I can see why the outside world thinks we're a bunch of idiots.

The one positive light is that I think it's relaxing a teeny, tiny bit, at least on the fanfic end. As far as I can tell, most of the art and vid people are still as crazy about it as they ever were. But SGA/SG1 fandom has a couple of very outspoken fanfic BNFs who believe that the "free marketplace of ideas" doesn't just extend to published works, and who have actually worked towards that, starting "remix" ficathons for example (the most recent of which I participated in, and had a great time). At

sheppard_hc a few months ago, I suggested a "tag each other's stories" challenge that went over wonderfully well; I was a little disheartened to see how many people put strings and conditions on how their stories could be reworked, but lots of people opted in and participated, and that made me happy. That's what I want fannish subculture to be like, not a place where people expect to be able to tromp on the source material with hobnailed boots but want their own special snowflakeness to be respected.

How in the world do you justify that YOU can create unauthorized fanwork based on someone else's words and images, but forbid others to do the same with yours? *seethes*

I wonder if a big part of it is that people don't think about the work that goes into producing their favorite shows/books/movies. People spend so much time talking about the characters that they sometimes forget that the characters aren't real and are the product of someone else hard work. (the writers, the actors and the directors)

I mean look at the people who say the writers of Atlantis don't know the characters. That the fans know the characters so much better then people who created them in the first place. Or the people at cons who ask the actors about plot points or lines of dialog that would be better asked of the writers. It is almost as though some think that they actors are making up their own lines, or that events are really happening and there just happens to be the cameras there to film it.

But I also think there is a lot of "us" (fanfic writers and fandom) versus "them" (the producers/writers) And many fall into the old in-group vs out-group type of thinking. So while it OK to steal from, insult, make fun those on the outside it is almost inexcusable to do the same to people on the inside. Not that this justifies the mentality, it does explain it.

Yeah, absolutely, on the "us and them" mentality. Every so often you'll see a round of BNF-bashing, with people complaining that BNFs haven't really earned their celebrity status, they're just regular folks. And while on one level they're right, it's equally true of the pedestal upon which we put the actors and writers that we admire. I mean, it's not that they don't deserve acclaim, but they're still "just folks" and I think fans tend to forget that.

True, but with BNFs I think there is some of the "why them and not me" going on. There is not much of that going with the actors and writers. And I don't have problem with that idea. I am not saying that we should put them on pedestals or say that we can steal from them but not other fans,
but I think we do need to remember that for most of them (the writers and actors) this is work...how they make their living.

Very true on the, as it were, "professional" jealousy between fans, the "why her and not me?" issue. However, BNFs, for the most part, earn their celebrity status essentially in the same way that pro writers get famous: by writing stories that are *good*, or at least popular. This is why the complaints about BNF-dom have always struck me as poorly thought out, at the very least, coming from a bunch of people whose entire social activity revolves around fanning on the celebrity status of pro entertainers. I'm not saying we shouldn't respect those who do this full time, because we should; it's just that BNF celebrity-dom and pro writer celebrity-dom are pretty similar in function even though fans object to one and not the other. I think it's inevitable in ANY group of people that some are going to become celebrities; it's just how human social interaction works.

(Of course, I'm not a BNF so what do I know. *g*)

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

derry667.livejournal.com - 2007-12-21 07:17 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

friendshipper.livejournal.com - 2007-12-21 09:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Rambling and reminiscing...

parisntripfan.livejournal.com - 2007-12-21 22:42 (UTC) - Expand

You mentioned below that what really ticks you off is people who don't think. I can certainly understand that, but I think my gigantic, "makes me so mad I could explode" button is HYPOCRISY.

Not so long ago, I would have probably listed hypocrisy as my number one peeve and it still annoys the crap out of me. But now I do think that a lot of hypocrisy is based on a refusal to see how what you are complaining about actually is the same as your own actions.

People forgetting to think before they say or do something, doesn't get my goat so much. That would actually be quite hypocritical of me because I've lost count of the number I've put my mouth into gear before I've engaged the brain. No, what really ticks me off is when people stubbornly refuse to even attempt to think about the issues and just parrot slogans they've heard instead. I really don't mind people disagreeing with me, but I prefer arguments where both sides really look at what the other is saying and argue each point on its merits - as opposed to jingoist slogan-shouting, mud-slinging, etc.

But yeah, those "don't *STEAL* my fannish stuff" example that you cited all tick me off too. I'm defintely more of the what's good for the goose is good for the gander philosophy.

That's what I want fannish subculture to be like, not a place where people expect to be able to tromp on the source material with hobnailed boots but want their own special snowflakeness to be respected.

Amen, sister! ;-)

Innnnnnteresting ... you know, I think it's possible that our position is fundamentally similar, as far as the sorts of things that tick us off; it's just that the rationale is different. I think you're absolutely right that most hypocrisy is essentially a case of not thinking -- a calculated refusal to think about the other person's point of view. A thoughtful, informed hypocrite is pretty much impossible. But willful blindness all by itself doesn't bother me nearly so much as it does when it manifests itself as hypocrisy; it's more of an annoyance and a frustration than something that provokes my "Aaargh! Idiots! Attack!" response.

But willful blindness all by itself doesn't bother me nearly so much as it does when it manifests itself as hypocrisy; it's more of an annoyance and a frustration than something that provokes my "Aaargh! Idiots! Attack!" response.

Yeah, I suppose when it's hypocrisy as well as refusal to think, that's when it REALLY boils my blood. And yes I find the mindless parroting of fandom slogans "they're SO doing it", "writing is not the same as doing it", etc just annoying and frustrating. I'm not inclined to attack coz there's absolutely no point in attacking someone who refuses to open their mind to the arguments. You just get more of the annoying slogans chucked back at you.

On the other hand, I love debating things with people who really do hold different views from me and are prepared to genuinely debate them. We might not change each others opinions, but just the intellectual exercise is heaps of fun for me.

Well I have seen some based attempts on real issues (such as some people being upset about interracial relationship being listed as a kink)but for the most part it seems to be anything is OK - until it offends me and then it needs to stopped.

I hadn't heard that much about the "clip theft" thing. I mean I do know that it is considered wrong to steal sequences - but I hadn't realized that one shouldn't even take a signal clip or make a vidcap. That is taking things to far...

such as some people being upset about interracial relationship being listed as a kink

Well, since my parents were an interracial couple, that's a bit confronting for me. Then again, I suppose I'm fairly thick-skinned about it and consider that it's the people who consider it a kink that have a problem and not me or my parents.

but for the most part it seems to be anything is OK - until it offends me and then it needs to stopped.

Isn't it always the way? Don't you dare inhibit me, but how dare you do something that offends me! I'm not inhibiting you. You're just WRONG!

I think that particular round of fannish feather-ruffling was a terminology issue -- over using the (outdated and offensive) word miscegenation to describe that sort of relationship. Although it kind of spiraled out from there...

but for the most part it seems to be anything is OK - until it offends me and then it needs to stopped.

And yeah, that's the way it seems to go, isn't it? One thing I find interesting about following those sorts of things is how the same people end up on different sides of different conflicts ... they're all about the "anything is okay" until it's their own sacred cow getting speared.

There was some debate over the term, but I also saw some posts where people were offended that by the idea that interracial pairing such as Dean/Luna could be put in the same category as Harry/Dobby.

because it was okay when we were all doing something "not exactly legal, but causing no harm so no one bothered us".

Right. Of course, the problem with that is that we are existing at the sufferance of the copyright holders, who can shut us down (or at least drive us underground) if they decide they don't like what we're doing.

On a purely practical level, though, the amount of tolerance that they have for us is high enough that it really doesn't matter if it's "legal" or "acceptable" or "legitimate" in any way. Fanfic was easy enough to find when I first started stumbling across it in 1997(?), and it's even easier to find now.

The main reason why I yearn for a little more "legitimacy" is because it's frustrating having to keep my fanfic persona separate from my real life persona. I always used to use my real name online until I started posting fanfic; my earliest fanfic was posted under my real name as well, but I switched to "Sholio" (a character from one of my original stories) because I didn't want my name coming up in Google searches attached to fanfic. I hate the idea that I have to keep being careful for fear of having publishers discover my fanfic. On the other hand, I've been wondering lately how much of a danger it really is. In years past, I've heard about a few fanfic writers who had to sign contracts promising not to post fanfic online or to take their fanfic down in order to get book publishing deals. I don't like that idea. But I know of enough people now who write fanfic and simultaneously publish novels (albeit under different noms de plume) that I'm a lot less worried about it than I used to be.

And I'm certainly not unhappy with how things are right now. Being able to post my fanfic and my original fiction at the same journal without worrying about negative effects on my writing career would be awesome. But it's more like the icing on the cake that I already have than the whole cake, if that makes any sense. I've already got a lot of freedom as a fanwriter and I would hate to lose some of that freedom because a small group of fans are seeking to gain rights we don't currently have. I'd say we have more to lose than to gain from raising our public profile, because at this point we seem to be thriving "under the radar" and I'm not sure how much is really to be gained anyway through a group of fanficcers seeking more widespread attention.

On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, I do think the attention is being focused on the fanfic community whether we want it or not. At least through OTW, it's mostly positive attention (at this point) as opposed to the sort of attention that we'd get if we ended up with a really skanky test case.

More to come in the next part...

The main reason why I yearn for a little more "legitimacy" is because it's frustrating having to keep my fanfic persona separate from my real life persona.

Yeah. I don't have that difficulty because I actually like keeping them separated - to the degree that I do. My family know I read and write fanfic - and it's never been an issue for them. They tease me about it from time to time in the same way that I tease them for some of their quirks. But there's tacit acceptance, even if they aren't really interested in the subject in general. My mum used to ask why didn't I write original stories that I could actually publish and get paid for, but has now more or less accepted that it doesn't interest me. I know that many other fanfic authors have dream of "turning pro" or already have, but that hasn't really been a goal for me.

I always used a pseudonym from the first time I started interacting on the internet. I think it was initially paranoia about what dangerous people could be out there and I didn't want to be identifiable to the scary psychos in any way. Now I've known people for years who refuse to believe that I have any name other than Derry. It's almost like having an alter ego - and I'm tragic enough to kinda get a kick out of that. ;-P

On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, I do think the attention is being focused on the fanfic community whether we want it or not. At least through OTW, it's mostly positive attention (at this point) as opposed to the sort of attention that we'd get if we ended up with a really skanky test case.

There definitely is that. And I'm not saying you're wrong, but when people try and control how the attention on them is focussed... well, the best laid schemes of mice and men gang aft agley. So, as I said, I applaud the ideals they are trying to uphold. I just worry about where it could go wrong in the execution.

As for the matter of entitlement, that's a real toughie. While I HATE the idea that there are going to be people who take that newfound "legitimacy" and run with it, I think you're absolutely right that this people will exist. But they already exist, don't they? I think such people will ALWAYS be present but will ALSO always represent a small minority of fandom, and it isn't really fair to fandom as a whole to use those people as a baseline for what we should and shouldn't do.

And that worries me because I do lean on that excuse more from a moral standpoint than a legal standpoint. A lot of the stuff I list under my personal "squicks", I find iffy paritally because I feel that it in some ways disrespects the creators (writers and actors). I feel that if I couldn't admit to them that I'd written/vidded/iconed/whatevered it with a clear conscience, then that extends beyond where I'm prepared to go as a fan.

Heh. It shouldn't come as any great surprise that this is that this has always been a big part of my own approach to fanwork, as well -- I create what I do out of love for the source material, with a very strong awareness that I'm playing in someone else's sandbox, and the idea that the author or actors would be horrified to discover that I've written makes me sad. It feels very immoral -- sort of like the same kind of moral skankiness that I'd get from taking a friend's tale of being sexually abused as a child, that she/he told me in confidence, and writing a novel that's a thinly disguised version of it. Sure, you could do that, legally ... and people actually have done things like that. I don't even know if I'd condemn someone for doing it; I've read books that I knew were the author airing their family's dirty laundry in thinly fictionalized form. But would I ever do it? Probably not.

As you know, I've started reading slash in the last couple of years, but I'm still kind of conflicted about it, and I can't make myself read the sexually explicit parts; there's still a deeply guilty awareness that these are real people's bodies and likenesses being manipulated. Whether it's rational or not, I do feel guilty about the one sexually explicit fanfic that I've written so far (my SG-1 one), like I crossed a line I'd never have dreamed of crossing prior to a couple of years ago -- and I don't think I would have been able to write something similar for SGA, where my emotional investment, especially my investment in the actors, is a lot deeper. I can't even look at sexually explicit manips and fanart; the sense of invading someone's privacy is too strong. It's not nearly as bad for me when the people are 100% fictional, especially if I know the author is okay with it (or isn't around anymore to be affected by it). For example, for Yuletide I wrote slash, by request, in a book fandom in which the author is dead, and I really didn't feel guilty about it at all.

I think it's kind of an arbitrary line, because I know that for some people, ANY fanfic is the same kind of invasion of privacy that I feel with the sexually explicit stuff. I really don't have any good, defensible basis for saying, "Yes, I feel that my novel-length story in which I break Sheppard's leg and kill off his friends is perfectly fine, but this one over here where he's tied up and fisted by Kolya creeps me out completely." Since I can't defend my own dividing line between "okay" and "not okay" in fic, I don't feel any urge at all to police other people's fic ... kind of like, I have a very vanilla sex life, but the idea that there are people out there who like to be tied up and have hot candle wax dripped on their nipples is not at all threatening or offensive to me. It just is. I feel the same way about most of the fic that personally squicks me -- I don't really want to read it, but I don't object to its existence.

But I'd never want the actors to see it. During last year's YouTube video contest that Hewlett was judging, I found that I couldn't watch most of the videos -- it was just too horribly, stomach-twistingly embarrassing to know that these were being seen by the actor, especially the appallingly smarmy ones or those with slash subtext.

I think such people will ALWAYS be present but will ALSO always represent a small minority of fandom, and it isn't really fair to fandom as a whole to use those people as a baseline for what we should and shouldn't do.

I know. I've just found that these people often form the vocal minority that many fandoms get judged by (*cough*SPN*cough*). It's not fair, but these empty vessels often do make the most sound - possibly because they thrive on that sort of attention, whereas the saner factions of fandom don't want to constantly thrust themselves into the limelight.

I feel the same way about most of the fic that personally squicks me -- I don't really want to read it, but I don't object to its existence.

I wish I could say that I was as completely open-minded, but I think that if I'm honest with myself, I do have some objections. It's not as if I object to the existence of fic that squicks me, but I do find myself disturbed by some of the "bandwagon mentality" of some fanfic trends - where people start getting into certain types of fic "coz it's HOT!" but never even stop to think about the implications of the stories are.

I've said it before, but it's the NOT THINKING involved that gets me. I hate the "herd mentality" and people justifying themselves and their fanworks by just throwing jingoistic slogans around. That just annoys me But that's a whole other rant (and one that I seem to keep returning to, from time to time).

Ahem. Continuing.

On a purely theoretical level, I believe that once a story is written, it's out there to be made over and re-interpreted by other people. It's hard to think of anything a person could do with my stories that I'd really, truly hate. I'm just too easygoing about them; it might be a bit frustrating for someone to take one of my stories and rework it in a way that makes it painfully obvious that they utterly missed the point, but I don't think I'd be any more offended by that than by a review that utterly missed the point -- and I thought one of the BEST points that was made in the Scalzi discussion is that a writer has no control over COMMENTARY on their work, nor do they expect to. Your book, your labor of love, can be completely torn apart by a reviewer, it can be made the target of a terribly mean-spirited parody in Mad Magazine, it can be included on a list of the 100 Worst Books Ever Written (with accompanying snide commentary) and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Not only that, but only the most grasping and obnoxious control-freak of a writer would actually TRY to do something about it. (Occasionally you'll hear of a writer making personal attacks on a reviewer or something along those lines, but it's considered clearly aberrant behavior.) So expecting to have total control (or ANY control) over how your work is made into fanfic, even if the fic runs entirely counter to your own intentions, and yet at the same time magnanimously accepting the right of reviewers to tear your book to shreds, is a weird kind of hypocrisy.

So my general, blanket philosophy on fanfic is that a reader has the right to re-interpret it however they desire, just like a reviewer can write a scathing review that causes the book's sales to tank. But there are a lot of sorts of stories that I, personally, wouldn't write, and that I feel very uncomfortable reading.

And even though I think people SHOULD have the right to write (and say) whatever they want, even if I personally find it reprehensible (although, honestly, there's very little fanfic I find truly reprehensible), I also agree with you that there are quite a lot of people in fandom who are happy to hide behind a blanket of "but I'm not hurting anyone, I can do whatever I want and however this affects you is your own problem". That's childish. There is power in words, and it's an entirely different thing to own up to the power of your words and write them anyway, than to write whatever you want and excuse it by denying that it could possibly have any effect on anyone out in the real world. (The example that always comes to mind -- which I think you and I have discussed before -- is RPS with actors who have kids. Because it's outrageous to believe that the kids are NOT going to be Googling Daddy's name online and finding graphic sex scenes with Daddy fucking someone who isn't Mommy. And maybe you -- generic RPS writer -- are okay with that and feel it's worth it, which is entirely between you and your conscience, but avoiding the problem by denying that it has anything to do with you won't score you any points in my book.)

On the other hand (there's always another hand ...), in order to write ANYTHING you've got to own up to a certain amount of "risk" in the effects that your writing might have on other people. It might not be nearly as blatant as with RPS, but maybe my (hypothetical example) carefully written portrait of a girl who overcomes a sexually abusive childhood might be so "triggering" to someone who reads it that they'll commit suicide because of it. It's really wonderful and powerful and scary being a writer. Some people (Karl Marx, George Orwell, Moses) changed the world with nothing but words. Obviously we fanfic writers are never going to be in a situation like THAT! But it's still a responsibility to write -- and, at the same time, you can't be too paralyzed by worrying about the consequences of your writing to stop you from writing anything at all.

I think I stopped making sense at some point in that paragraph, which probably means this is a good time to stop commenting.

On a purely theoretical level, I believe that once a story is written, it's out there to be made over and re-interpreted by other people.

Amen. It's still the original writer's story (ie no fan should claim the original source work to be their own), but once it's "out there", how it's interpreted and where it goes from there is largely up to the audience, rather than the original creator.

You put something out there - some "labour of love", as you say - and you are opening yourself up to criticism, rejection and misinterpretation. That's just the way the world is. It's the way the human race does things. You can't make your audience interpret what you write in the way you want to any more than you can control their thinking over any other issue. And IMHO you should NOT try to stop them expressing their opinion on the matter.

And IMHO someone should impress that upon the precious flowers of fanfic writing too. But then, I had some conversations with friends over the weekend about how fanfic reviews that aren't 100% positive and squeeful shouldn't be considered "flames". These were fellow Aussies and I sometimes wonder if we aren't a little more outspoken, both giving and expecting less quarter in the cut and thrust of an argument.

There is power in words, and it's an entirely different thing to own up to the power of your words and write them anyway, than to write whatever you want and excuse it by denying that it could possibly have any effect on anyone out in the real world.

Yes. Yes. YES! Stand up for what you write. OWN it. If you want to write something dark and/or controversial, do it, but also face up to the consequences. Don't pretend that it's "just your kink" and has no other ramifications. Don't abdicate responsibility. Don't bury your head in the sand about the implications of what you write. I've got no respect for that sort of attitude. If you've got your reasons for doing what you do and writing what you write, then STAND BY THOSE REASONS.

And if you don't have any reasons, well, then why are you doing it? It's a fair question.

Ironically, after all of my bitching about fandom entitlement above, I went on SGA Noticeboard just now and what was the first thing I saw? A sequel to a story written by a different fan. And what's the top thing on Storyfinders? A search for a sequel to a story written by a different fan. *g* I got to thinking about it, and you actually see quite a lot of that in this fandom -- people playing in each other's sandboxes.

I think fandom's mellowed about it a lot since I first got involved. LJ probably contributes to that, because if you see something that you desperately want to use in your own story, it's so EASY to drop a line and say, "Hey, can I borrow [x] from your story for mine?" Even in a big fandom like SGA, it's so interconnected that odds are pretty good you've been involved in discussions with the person before, or seen them crop up on your friends' LJs.

For the record, I haven't got a single problem with asking before taking; it doesn't even seem hypocritical that one might prefer to be asked and feel a little weird if they weren't. The very small handful of times that I've wanted to use something from someone else's story, I've always asked and credited, and I would probably continue to do so even if fannish mores were such that you didn't have to. What I don't get is people who actively object to someone reusing their fan creation and raise a stink about it if it's done without their overt permission. (It's possible that such people are a minority in fandom. Maybe.)

But then, I had some conversations with friends over the weekend about how fanfic reviews that aren't 100% positive and squeeful shouldn't be considered "flames". These were fellow Aussies and I sometimes wonder if we aren't a little more outspoken, both giving and expecting less quarter in the cut and thrust of an argument.

I haven't got a clue if there are cultural factors at work or not. I've always tried to be honest. Periodically I run into posts that rag on fanfics or authors anonymously, and you know, I try my damnedest not to do that. If I'm going to speak up and criticize someone's fic or a post they wrote, I'll mention them by name and offer a link so that people can decide for themselves. It's not that I'm trying to encourage dogpiling or anything; it's just that I get fed up with fandom being like a bunch of high school girls, giggling behind their hands and excusing mocking comments because they didn't identify the person by name, so that makes it okay to say whatever they like. (Of course, I reserve the right to do such complaining behind friendlock because hey, I'm not crazy. *g*)

I haven't got a clue if there are cultural factors at work or not. I've always tried to be honest.

I dunno really. Australians, in general, are fairly laid back. But I do know of a few total prima donnas in fandom who are Australian, so it's not a hard and fast rule. It's probably more about individuals. There's very little I wouldn't say to

starrylizard about her fic/vids because she'll know I'm being honest and not mean-spirited about it. But really, I think the same of you. We agree on so much though, it just rarely becomes an issue! LOL!

If I'm going to speak up and criticize someone's fic or a post they wrote, I'll mention them by name and offer a link so that people can decide for themselves.

Hmmmm.... I think I actually take the opposite tactic. I try to talk about the issue that I don't like rather than pointing a finger at the specific fic. I think of it as trying to "play the ball, not the man" to use a sporting analogy (rugby, but I think it really applies to any code of football). I don't want to make it a personal attack and so I try to depersonalise it. Of course, people might recognise the fic from my description of what I'm complaining about, but that's not my intention.

I still haven't used my friendslock. In a weird way, I'm kinda proud that what I say to my friendlist, I'm prepared for anyone to read. That's not condemning anyone else's friendslocking as being sneaky and underhand. I'm just... I dunno... pleased(?) that what I've said on LJ so far has been out in the open. And that's not to say that I don't say things in private emails that I would NEVER DARE say on the LJ. So it's not *exactly* hypocrisy... ;-P

You know, I'd always thought I did that, but thinking about it, I can actually only think of a few instances where I actually have pointed fingers, so to speak. I suppose that, now that I'm putting more thought into it, it's something that I really am conflicted about, because I don't want to hurt people's feelings but I feel like I'm being overly coy if I write "Someone wrote [this] and I disagree..." when I know perfectly well who wrote it ...

But I can see what you mean about attacking the issue, not the person. And I DO see why you're proud of not using friendslock, and I don't feel like it's a slur against people who do. *g* Again, I'm a trifle conflicted over it; I don't want to hurt people's feelings or cause a ruckus when all I really want to do is chat with my friendslist about something, or ask them a question, or vent about something. But it does feel just the teeniest bit dishonest, as if I wasn't willing to own up to what I was saying.

And I'm out-and-out ASHAMED of having deleted posts, though it may not stop me from doing it again in the future. (Well, I don't think I've ever actually deleted something, but I've changed the privacy settings on posts so that only I could see them, in cases where I really, really wished I hadn't written what I wrote.) I once swore I'd never do it, and then I found myself doing it from time to time. The only times I do it are when I feel like I really screwed up with something I posted -- that it's offensive or wrong, or just way, way more controversial than I want to deal with. I should probably leave those "mistakes" standing as a lesson to myself, but it's just so easy and so tempting to make them go away...

We agree on so much though, it just rarely becomes an issue! LOL!

Heh. That does make it easier, doesn't it! And really, I think I am a fairly easy person to get along with. Most people probably feel that way about themselves, though...

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OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

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