Still here. Still thinking.

[sholio]

There's still a lot of posting going on, around the fandom blogosphere, on racism and the recent unbecoming actions of profic authors and their fans/friends/supporters. rydra_wong, lovely and hardworking person, is continuing to post comprehensive roundups a couple of times a day.

I'm reading, and thinking about it, and talking things over with a couple of friends outside the public circle of LJ. I think that's about all I can manage right now.

One post I wanted to link to, though, is this one by ciderpress. For all of it, but especially for this:

However, in the intense and almost singular focus on clueless white people in this discussion and the often repeated statement that this was an opportunity to dialogue, that there is solace in the fact that it has been worth all the pain and difficulty, that they are somehow *glad*, the underlying assumption is that:

* PoCs have emotional/intellectual catharsis after such discussions.

* PoC's pain being part of an educational moment for clueless white people is worth it to PoCs because it's worth it to white people.

* Anti-racism matters the same amount, in the same way to clueless white people, allies and PoC.

My own personal answer is, frankly no, I haven't felt any kind of catharsis. I'm pretty sure that the sacrifice of my dignity and watching other PoC being denigrated without any remorse isn't worth it so please stop talking for me and be more precise in your speech and own that you didn't really think about whether my pain and humiliation is worth your enlightening moment. And I can't walk away after a discussion and it's not about having a choice (even a forced one) about writing or not writing characters that are in my head. When we talk about race, we are often talking about our lives, it's deeply personal, it's how we related to the world, to people, to media, to everything.

This. Yes.

Right now I'm balancing my anxiety about being silent (and leaving the burden on others to argue, comfort, debate, cajole and explain) with my anxiety of trying to turn the internet into my Personal Arguing Machine (TM Warren Ellis) and engaging in debate for all the wrong reasons -- as well as balancing that with the need to disengage and take a breath and think about other things for a while.

I want to help, but I don't want to hurt under the guise of helping; that's worse than just staying out of it.

Comments

[flingslass.livejournal.com]

I read the post but it just seems so pat to say something when ciderpress feels so much pain. I mean I don't know what to say.

[sholio]

I know. Me too.

ciderpress blows my mind, always

[rydra_wong]

FWIW, things that I sometimes find it helpful to remember, when I manage to remember them:

It is often better and more productive to step back, breathe, and take time to think through things than to try to participate while your head is exploding, which just gets messy. Exploding allies help no-one.

If I don't post or contribute right now this very second, I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and find that all discussion of race in fandom and sf/f is suddenly over and I missed my chance. It's not going to be over for a long damn while, and thus it makes sense to pace yourself for the long haul.

The debate will probably not collapse for lack of my Very Important Thoughts About What I As A White Woman Think About This (I find this comforting, as well as surprisingly hard to remember).

Listening never hurts. Yes, there's the danger of only listening and using it as an excuse to avoid putting yourself on the line, but I don't think you're in danger of that right now (you argued with Shetterly; I'm pretty sure you get hazard pay for that ...).

You can always link and point at other people saying smart things (one of the many reasons I linkspam so compulsively).

Oh, and boggling at the SPARKLY UNICORN ORGASM TWILIGHT WANK will help cleanse and refresh your brain.

(I already successfully inflicted it on delux_vivens, so sharing the horror around is only fair *g*.)

Re: ciderpress blows my mind, always

[sholio]

The debate will probably not collapse for lack of my Very Important Thoughts About What I As A White Woman Think About This

Hee. Yes. Good advice, all of it, but especially this; it's something that I try to be particularly mindful of in these debates. And thank you again for your link roundups.

Am avoiding Sparkly Unicorn wank for the sake of my poor brain. *g*

[miscellanny.livejournal.com]

For my part, I know that I'm not particularly articulate and the odds of being misread on the internet are very, very great. So I read, and I try to learn, and I try to make sure that it affects the way that I behave, speak and react in the real world. And I try to make sure that I make clear why I'm behaving, speaking and reacting like that whenever it is appropriate; considering I'm a teacher, the appropriate time quotient is higher. It's the same thing I do with debates on gender and sexual preferences, although I have rather more direct experience in that debate - I make sure to challenge careless and hurtful language use and behaviour, and to take a second to explain why I'm doing it, and it spreads. Now pretty much all the teachers I work with challenge use of the word gay as an insult, and - at least when I'm around - some of the kids I work with are doing it too. It's not much, but I think it's worth more than my garbled attempts at internet coherency would be. :D

[sholio]

I think that doing so in the real world is even more important than speaking up in these online debates -- and probably harder, as well. I know that it's extremely difficult for me to confront people about their behavior or speech in RL, and often I keep silent when I know I really shouldn't. So you're far braver than me. :D

[miscellanny.livejournal.com]

In that too, though, it's a lot easier to come at it from within the teaching profession; even those boys without much respect for authority within my school are still conditioned to think of teachers as authority figures, whose opinions Officially Have More Weight. I'm currently working as a TA, and I think that the boys like me better for it - being on their side, and all - and that has an affect too.

Also, I feel guilty to an extent for my ability to pass. As a bisexual woman I don't fit the societally defined norm, and I could potentially be discriminated against, and I feel as though I'm letting myself down if I don't step in when that discrimination happens around me, whether it's directed at someone or whether it's a hateful speech pattern that's not harmfully meant. I didn't choose to be bi but I can choose whether or not to hide it; although it's not something I always talk about - because who I sleep with is no one's business, and I'm more likely to complain of the lack at present anyway - it's never something I will lie about, nor conceal by careful talking around it. Other people don't get the choice about whether or not to hide what they are discriminated against in the name of, whether that's skin colour or disability or whatever. Being outspoken about these things is as much an act of acceptance of my own bisexuality - which didn't come easy, but came easier for me than a hell of a lot of other people, since my mother came around to the idea eventually :D - as it is an act on behalf of other people. So it's really quite selfish in part, but thank you very much for calling it brave anyway. Makes me feel better about all the times I wasn't. ;)

Er. That comment totally got away from me there, I'm sorry about that.

*climbs down off soapbox, sheepishly*

[beadattitude.livejournal.com]

I want to help, but I don't want to hurt under the guise of helping; that's worse than just staying out of it.

YES. I tried to help one day and ended up getting my foot all up in my mouth. Not really, but I felt like I did.

[sholio]

Oh yes. I've definitely experienced the taste of foot. *g*

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I've found myself in much the same boat. I've mostly kept my mouth shut and read a lot. I finally posted a little something; I'm torn between feeling that it's not enough and that anything I can say would be at best superfluous after people like ciderpress and deepad and a few other people have posted.

I've gotten into a few of these discussions myself, not on LJ but on discussion boards in other places, and I always ended up feeling drained and that I had not in fact convinced anyone of anything, and probably stuck my foot in my mouth at the same time. So I'm partly just being a coward this time. An awful lot of people who need to listen, though, don't seem to be doing any listening.

[sholio]

Yeah; when I first got heavily involved in online fandom (2000-2001 era) I really got into debating charged topics online, and while I learned a lot about constructing arguments, I don't think I accomplished anything else other than to indulge my own urge to argue -- I seriously doubt if I changed anyone's mind or made the world a better place in any way.

There's a time to speak and a time to be quiet; the trick is learning to distinguish between the two!

[livrelibre.livejournal.com]

I've been mostly listening, linking a little (to that same wonderful post as well) and having similar anxieties. FWIW I've appreciated your posts.

[sholio]

I'm just finding it impossible to think of anything helpful to say, especially without making it all about me, and no one needs that right now. (But thanks.)

On a totally different topic, I was just reading your fannish MBTI posts, and I really owe you a comment, because it's a fascinating idea! The odd thing is that I come out differently on the fannish MBTI than I self-identify on the regular MBTI, which is weird; I don't know if I behave differently in fandom than in RL, or if my self-assessment of my own behavior is somewhat wrong.

[livrelibre.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know what you mean. And I do plan to continue the MBTI thing (though never feel like you owe me a comment; usually I'm just chucking stuff out there). Damn that actual work I have to do :) I'm pretty similar in fannish type to my real type, though I think I'm a little more middle ground in the Squee/Meta bit than I am on Feeling/Thinking.

And I was reading something about the MBTI and it was saying that it's one of the only personality tests in which the results were given to the participant and they got to decide if their self-report was right or not and pick type they thought best fit them more or less. Also, my translation of the types is in no way scientific (I'm not a psychologist, I just play one on the Internet) so I'd go with your gut :) /geek

[blucola.livejournal.com]

I figure that if I have to wrack my brain to find something to add to a discussion, then it's just as well that I lurk and simply learn from others. Which I have, to be honest. There are way more eloquent people out there than myself. LOL

[sholio]

Heh. Yes; I think that if I spend an hour writing and rewriting a comment, it's probably best in the end to delete it unposted. (Waste of a perfectly good hour, though.)

[blucola.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yes; I think that if I spend an hour writing and rewriting a comment, it's probably best in the end to delete it unposted. (Waste of a perfectly good hour, though.)

But if you're like me, in the end, you end up relieved that you didn't. *g*

[leenys.livejournal.com]

Having read this and another post on the subject, dare I ask what the heck is going on?

[sholio]

oh lord, where to begin. rydra_wong has a bunch of links posts, if you have some time to spend. Basically, in a nutshell, a small group of science fiction/fantasy authors and editors have been getting into a dust-up with online fandom. It started with SFF writer Elizabeth Bear responding at her blog to a critique of one of her novels that was posted at a reader's personal blog, and things went downhill very badly. Anyone you ask is going to give you a slightly biased version of events; my own bias is that there never would have been a problem if Bear and her friends and associates had been able to accept criticism of the book (and themselves) gracefully, but that was not how it went, and now we've got things like Patrick Nielson Hayden (editor at Tor Books) deleting his Livejournal and his wife posting thinly veiled threats against the careers of anyone who's criticized him.

[leenys.livejournal.com]

So, they can take the paid critic's views, but can't take those of a fan? Man, keep them away from fanfiction dot net. Guess they've been in a bit of a bubble all these years, only seeing crits in magazines and getting the occasional word of a fan through the signings. This brave new world'll burst that bubble right fast. They need to adapt.

So I take it the things that were said on either said have been blown all out of proportion.

Yep, they need to join a fandom. Toughens the skin.