SGA: Kindred pt 2...

[sholio]

Um. Not so happy here. About one specific thing in the episode, at least.

Okay, so remember how my huge DO NOT WANT for this season was that I did not want a monster baby for Teyla?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Okay, now that I've got that out of my system...

I totally called the Carson thing! (Edit: Actually, naye called that one, pretty much. I'd been thinking along the same lines, but she's the one who really laid the theory out in the open, so she ought to have credit.) Except I didn't expect the degeneration. Overall, I was happy that we got a lot of Rodney/Carson interaction -- I also liked the Carson/Keller bits and I loved Ronon's overall awkwardness with the whole situation, right up to the hug at the end, and the sad way he laid his head down on Carson's shoulder? That was pretty much my dose of "awwwwwww" for the episode. Awwwwww!

But aside from that little scene at the beginning where they're outside the isolation room, we really didn't get any reaction scenes with the others discussing and digesting the whole situation, and that left the whole thing feeling kind of flat to me. I think in particular what I wanted was *something* with Rodney getting support from his team, or Sheppard, or even Carter, who's done the whole "He's dead! Oh wait! He's back!" thing too many times to count. Presumably, there would have been scenes like that during the slow times in the middle of the episode -- while Carson and Keller are working at the microscopes, for example. But I wanted to see~! There was lots of stuff with Carson, which was nice, but I didn't really get the sort of emotional impact and teaminess that I wanted from the episode. Maybe I just wanted too much ...?

I did appreciate the fact that Rodney, at least, recognized that a Carson clone with all Carson's memories *is* Carson, for all intents and purposes, which is something that they didn't seem willing to acknowledge with the RepliTeam. I liked Rodney's protectiveness, even to the point of pushing Carson out of the way of bullets and covering him in the field. And ohhh, I hurt for Rodney, having to vicariously relive the deaths of Elizabeth and Original!Carson ... and then losing him AGAIN. And Sheppard, losing Teyla, maybe permanently. I think they (and Ronon ... that sad little hug still breaks me) need to go get really drunk together now.

And they got the Athosians back! Well, most of them! (Er, aside from the dead ones and the really *important* one, of course.) That was pretty neat. Once they get back Teyla AND HER BABY, she'll have somewhere to go.

In conclusion, I'm utterly unspoiled for the season finale and hoping to stay that way (haven't even watched the previews, don't have a clue what to expect other than the title) ... and then we'll be done with the season!

EDIT: Okay, now that I've had time to think and digest the episode a little bit, I'm feeling a lot better about most of what bugged me, emotionally. I think the problem *was* that I had certain sorts of scenes I wanted to see, and we didn't see them, and I was irked by that. But I did like what we got! (Well, except for the Teyla thing. NOT GOING THERE.)

Comments

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the ep yet (downloading now), but so far what I've seen around the web is a kind of "meh" reaction.

I wanted to tell you though (I thought you might enjoy this) - did you notice the two little Athosian boys being herded out by a dark haired woman? Those were Joe Flanigan's sons. :)

[sholio]

Eeeek! They're Joe's kids? That is so cute! Must go back and find them now! :D

I was "meh" at first but I'm liking it more now that I've had a little time to reflect on it, so I hope you won't be disappointed.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

I saw those kids and remembered thinking, "Oh, that's cute - it's obvious they're not really actors but just 'kids'." Never thought about how they might be Joe's, or one of the crew's.

[naye]

Yeah - I managed not to cringe too much at the Teyla + Michael scenes, but I was desperately hoping for Kanan to come charging to the rescue or something, because no, no, DO NOT WANT.

Other than that - and I'm even kind of okay with that, since I've been expecting the worst from the beginning - I loved this episode a WHOLE LOT! There were so many sweet little moments, and Rodney with Carson... it was breaking my heart the entire time, and their farewell when they're freezing him... oh. Yes. They totally need to get very, very drunk together. And possibly hug. Huuuuuuuuuugs! There needs to be more hugs! (Ronon is such a good hugger! ♥)

One random thing that I really, really loved is that when Ronon finds the syringe, Rodney asks "Do you think Teyla...?", and John just snaps at them that "No, I don't think so, and you don't think so!" because NO BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN TO MY TEAM STFU I'M NOT HEARING THIS. It-it almost made me laugh, because oh, John! ♥ ♥ ♥ That's just John in a nutshell.

Also, loved John using logic on the overprotective Rodney - well, if you were in Carson's place, wouldn't you do the same for Teyla? And Rodney just can't argue with that. Of course he'd risk his own life for Teyla, he doesn't even pretend differently.

Right now, the main thing that's bugging me? Is why the hell they didn't send more people! If they knew they were going after Michael, to save Teyla, and possibly extract a whole bunch of Athosians... why not bring another team or five?? Why not bring cloaked jumpers? Why not go all out an get the bastard, when they had the chance? Did I miss an in-show explanation, or was it all just written to let Michael get away at the end?

Also - CARSON! *whimper* His best-before date had expired and they froze him, and it's very upsetting to me! And to Rodney. Who is this close to breaking. Meep. Can they please get drunk together now...? I worry about them!

[sholio]

I think the Teyla thing kind of tainted my enjoyment of the episode -- that, and I kept going through the whole second half, "Okay, someone comfort Rodney already!" Now that I've gotten past that, looking back on it, I'm really liking it more and more all the while. They *did* give us lots of emotional scenes and lots of character interaction, way more than I was expecting. And, oh, Rodney ... he's just changed so much in the last four years, hasn't he? Of course he'd risk his life for Teyla! And he's breaking with everything that's going on with Carson, and he's trying to spend time with him, and protect him ... oh, Rodney!

EDIT: But, hey! They used the stasis pods in a medical emergency! That's done in fanfic all the time, but it never seems to occur to them on the show. So yay for that!

[gnine.livejournal.com]

See, I actually felt relief with the baby thing, I was fearing much WORSE. (like Michael had somehow influenced it or something). But, (and this could change) from what I could tell, all they were saying is the baby would have a particularly strong gift, which, considering very early on they established Teyla's gift as being very strong, and the father also carries the wraith genes, it's kinda a forgone conclusion their kid would have a strong strain of the gift. And if the baby had been born with Kanaan and all still around, without Michael's intervention, it just woulda been a particularly Gifted kid. Nothing more special, no monster baby. It's just that for Michael's very specific purposes that it's a particularly special child. And if they can get him away from Michael, I think he'd continue to grow up pretty much normal (well, as normal as a kid could be with those parents and 'uncles' ^_-)

The one thing that worries me is if they're gonna get Teyla back but Michael will get to keep the child, raise it to be evil, etc. etc, seen it before *yawn*

Err, sorry, got long there, gomen.

On an entirely different note, major wobbie!Rodney for the WIN! Oh god, his look when Carson asks him to call in Elizabeth. Just...wow, Oh RODNEY!

[sholio]

Yeah, see, that's totally where I think they're going with the baby -- Michael's going to take it and fly off with it so he can Wraithify it. (That *had* to be what the stuff he injected was ... the beginning of the Wraithification.) So that's how they're going to "fix" Teyla having to choose between her career and her baby, and it makes me shriek!

*SHRIEKS*

I mean, the show could surprise me -- they could get Teyla + baby back, and everything will be cool ... but I'm really, really thinking not. And they were doing so well! I'm so disappointed.

... but anyway, Woobie!Rodney for the win! I'm liking the episode a lot better now that I'm looking past the Teyla thing to the things I *did* like about it. And, oh, Rodney ... he was breaking my heart all through it. Could his life possibly get worse at this point?

[ladyniko.livejournal.com]

Okay, so remember how my huge DO NOT WANT for this season was that I did not want a monster baby for Teyla?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Seconded!

I haven't watched the promos really either. I just wait for wraithfodder to put up her parodies of the pics that MGM & Skiffy post of the upcoming episode. Then, I laugh my head off because her parodies have usually been a LOT better than what the "boys" at Bridge have come up with! (What I still fail to understand - why, oh why, can't there be any women writers, directors or producers allowed on SG? *rolls eyes* I guess the boys are totally afraid that they'll be outclassed in case they let a woman fill any one of those roles on a full time basis. :-p)

[sholio]

See, I don't really want to go there, because male writers can write fantastic women. Some of my favorite female characters are created and written by men. Heck, Joss Whedon is *known* for his female characters. And having female writers isn't helping Supernatural in the slightest.

What they need is more nuanced and attentive writers, more risk-taking writers I suppose. And this is one area where Gero really shines, because he's not afraid to do episodes that are all about personal interaction and "nothing happening", which is really unusual for a sci-fi show. I kinda wish they'd take that mentality and run with it.

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

Both parts of Kindred have left me kind of "Meh"ing, but in a good way. I've been sucked into the episodes as they've happened, but they haven't left me with anything to ponder, iykwim.

I did like the emphasis on the Rodney/Carson friendship.

I've written off Teyla's baby. Anything they do will be annoying and I'm just going to have to deal.

- Helen

[sholio]

I'd agree with you, that they were enjoyable episodes but not standouts. I liked this one better than last week's because there was so much more interpersonal stuff, which is basically my favorite thing about the show.

[roga.livejournal.com]

Go you for calling Carson!

I too was hoping for more of a reaction from Sam, and was proud of Rodney for thinking of Carson as Carson instead of The Clone. I was a bit bothered by how normal Carson seemed - after all, you'd think he'd be a bit more traumatized after two years in captivity, but his own mental state was kind of glossed over.

Teyla's baby - well, that scene was horrifying, basically. I don't know where they're going with it, but I hope the baby doesn't die and doesn't -- well, not much use of hoping for anything, as I can't see too many good outcomes for the baby. Let's just say I hope he actually stays a baby, and doesn't magically/scientifically/AUishly transform into a teenager within five episodes, because we have so been there and bought the snow globe.

Other than that, though - lots of cool scenes, and much yay for Carson! John was awesome too, and Keller, and Ronon, and Rodney was sweet.

I also liked seeing the abandoned world Michael settled in. Looks like they had a pretty advanced, industrial civilization, and it's nice seeing more of those in Pegasus (speaking of last ep's "backwards aliens" race issues...)

I can't believe next week is the season finale! I'd thought there were going to be 24 eps. I have been outside the loop :-(

[sholio]

I'm always happy to see more of the Pegasus Galaxy -- and you're right about the more industrialized civilization being a nice change. Actually, with an entire GALAXY full of inhabited worlds, I don't see why a lot of cultures couldn't evade Wraith notice until they were pretty far along, technologically speaking. Obviously the Satedans did, even though it didn't end well for them.

I've decided not to think about the baby situation. It's too frustrating! I guess I'll just let the show do what it will, and come along for the ride ... however it ends up.

And as much as I *didn't* want things to end this way, thinking about it, I really don't think I'd mind if next season's Teyla focus was Teyla looking for her lost baby. I did like the running thread of the missing Athosians this season, so it may work out well.

... maybe. I reserve the right to complain! ;)

[nonniemous.livejournal.com]

/sigh/ I may have to break down and watch this episode. My one question, did this make Mallozzi's "hint" from third season make sense?

[sholio]

Er ... kinda. I think it was more a case of going back and working with what they already had (with only moderate success), rather than dropping clues. There *are* things that happened in the third season without which their Carson-return would not have made sense (or, perhaps I should say, "less sense than it does"). However, I don't think they put them in there deliberately to set up his return.

[obsessed1o1.livejournal.com]

anyone else notice carson's "no wonder i felt like a dogs breakfast!" Call out to David!!! :D

[obsessed1o1.livejournal.com]

and you totally see Joe's kids giving him a smile!!!

[wildcat88.livejournal.com]

Re: Teyla's baby. I console myself with the fact that Michael is a raving lunatic. He thinks Teyla's baby will help his research. I have my doubts. Surely Teyla and Kanaan can't be the first 2 people with The Gift that have made a baby over the centuries. The boy may have a strong gift, but that doesn't make him a monster baby. Yet. I'm really hoping (and I have seen no spoilers for S5 so this is pure speculation) that they'll go a different direction than having Michael steal the kid leaving Teyla searching the galaxy for him all next season.

On Rodney and comfort - when Carson turns to Rodney after Ronon hugs him, McKay turns away and looks at the stasis pod. John keeps an eye on him, but I don't think Rodney could handle "comfort" at that moment. He never stopped talking, he never said goodbye, he didn't even shake Carson's hand. DENIAL. To accept comfort from someone else would make it real. I think John knows him well enough to understand that (John's the same way).

I absolutely ADORED the Rodney-Carson friendship moments. *hugs Rodney*

I'm like naye, I don't cry, but when Ronon admitted that his reluctance was due to being afraid of losing Carson again and then HUGGED him. *sniff* In some ways, I thought this was sadder than Sunday.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Yes! Rodney is too deeply in denial to accept anything remotely like comfort at this point, because he doesn't need comfort, because they're going to save Carson, soon, and he's not going to acknowledge any alternative any more than Sheppard would think (or let Ronon) think about the syringe.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

Have expressed my general thoughts on the ep elsewhere (I liked it well enough - not a great ep but a good one) but something else has just occured to me:

With all the "Teyla missing/Carson back from the dead" stuff going on, everyone seems to have completely forgotten the rather important issue from Part I of the nasty Hoffan virus Mark II being used to randomly infect worlds and kill rather a lot of innocent folks in the process. What with dat?!!

I, like you, am utterly unspoiled for the finale, other than the general bits I knew of months ago, and am hoping to stay that way and let it all be a surprise. :)

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

everyone seems to have completely forgotten the rather important issue from Part I of the nasty Hoffan virus Mark II being used to randomly infect worlds and kill rather a lot of innocent folks in the process. What with dat?!!

Wow, how could they have totally ignored that?

OTOH, one more subplot and the episode would have imploded.

- Helen

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I had no problems with Sam; I thought she was being quite reasonable. She had no emotional connection with Carson, and she didn't see this as someone back from the dead; I think she was more afraid of something like "Foothold"--or even "Gemini." It's when the aliens look like friends (or like you!), and especially when bad guys have created and programmed them, that you get into real trouble! She's the commander, and she has to see Carson as not Carson, but a threat. After all, he has been programmed by Michael, although not as much as she no doubt feared. Given all those worries, and past experiences with her Replicator self, I thought she was quite sympathetic in the final scene. Partly, she feels for the team; partly, I think he has managed to connect with her, because, well, he's Carson.

I'm convinced Teyla's baby is pure Athosian, and I hope it will stay that way; the advantage of Carson having worked on the 'treatments' here is that surely he was also simultaneously considering at every point how to reverse the process.

I too have the sinking feeling that they'll solve Teyla's baby versus place on the team dilemma by making her place on the team a way to get the baby back. To echo a sentiment already expressed: DO NOT WANT! I deeply hope that doesn't happen, but I'm trying to prepare myself for it.

For the most part, though, I'm just so full of squee at getting Carson back, and getting scenes with Carson and Rodney that really did exceed my expectations (low expectations is the way to go, I'm telling you!), that I refuse to let the Teyla/Michael/Kanaan/baby stuff bother me. In fact, I'm planning to watch the episode again and skip those most disturbing scenes. (I do have to catch the little Flanigans! I didn't know until after I'd seen it!)

My review is here.

[sholio]

I had no problems with Sam; I thought she was being quite reasonable.

Did anyone have problems with Sam? That would surprise me ... I agree with you, I thought that caution was absolutely the right approach to take, especially considering some of the weird stuff the Pegasus Galaxy throws at them.

I'm convinced Teyla's baby is pure Athosian, and I hope it will stay that way; the advantage of Carson having worked on the 'treatments' here is that surely he was also simultaneously considering at every point how to reverse the process.

Well, I just hope that you (and others) are right and I'm wrong. I still think that whatever he injected was the bug serum, and that she's now carrying Michael's ultimate creation. *shudders*

And the little Flanigans are definitely worth rewatching for! They're very cute!

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I just re-watched the episode with my husband and still enjoyed all the emotional scenes you mentioned. Rodney's were the best, they balanced out John's internalization on the whole.

The only thing that tainted the rest upon the second viewing was there were two chances for Teyla to leave and now she's all about "Kanan" which really bugged me. She could have left with Carson and even after that, Michale just took her my the arm, stunner away. Teyla should have been able to handle him easily. It annoys me how the writers pick and choose when to have strong!Teyla.

However, the episode on a whole was very well down. Proving to me that Alan writes some of my favs for this season. I'm sure with this script he was told the whats and hows and he had to work within a framework.

And stasis pods for the win! Its a fanfic tradition and now TPTB know that too!

[sholio]

Teyla's passivity did bother me a bit, although I *can* kinda see why she might be having a little more trouble fighting back than usual, being a) massively pregnant and b) in emotional shock from everything that's happened to her in the last day or so.

But overall, yes, it was a fun episode! I can't believe there's only one left in the season.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

I've decided that since when the team got to the lab Ronon picked up a syringe and squirted it and liquid came out, somehow Michael must have not actually injected whatever the fluorescent green crap was and Teyla's baby is going to be perfectly fine and normal. *nods* *continues to live in delusional universe*

But! Look! They remembered HALLING! (I wanted Jinto so bad!) and, yeah, I called Carson too, but they did it well (except for the bit that just grabbing some DNA isn't going to make an identical person. ARGH!)

I spent the entire episode waiting for Teyla to fight back - especially when it was Teyla, Michael and Carson because, I mean, I know she's hugely pregnant but...it's Teyla. She can still swing a stick or throw a punch. Her going to easily felt wrong.

But, yeah, mostly entertaining, but nothing special. And totally cop-out way to wait on deciding if they actually want Carson back.

I did love Carson asking for Elizabeth and Rodney's reactions - at least we got something. And I kept yelling at Sam "you've seen people come back from the dead all the time. why are you so skeptical?"

Was it just me, or did Carson seem remarkably...okay mentally for having been Michael's prisoner for two years?

And I'll stop babbling at you.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

(except for the bit that just grabbing some DNA isn't going to make an identical person. ARGH!)

XDD One of my constant pet peeves with nearly all SF cloning. How did Michael age him to exactly the right point? And he grew up in a tube and came out the right height and weight and everything! It doesn't really bother me because I'm so used to seeing it, but it does tend to make me giggle at inappropriate moments...

[vecturist.livejournal.com]

Well, I liked the episode for the most part - mainly due to Paul/Carson being back and I think you could just feel the emotions from the set (and definitely cute Joe's sons were in the ep).

That said, I think I'll echo the whole expecting Teyla to be more of her usual tough as nails self. My other big complaint (and I'm probably one of a handful to pick up on some of this) is how bad the science of the whole telomere/aging/genetics issue was, but I'm working on a degree in genetics, so there are times I have to shut that part of my brain off...

[sholio]

Heh. My sister is a lab tech in a genetics lab, and the science in SGA drives her nuts! She definitely had problems with this one.

I am still very sleep deprived, please forgive any incoherent manifestoing!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I liked the ep, didn't love it, put it probably somewhere in the middle.

The Teyla pregnancy thing didn't bother me that much, but that's because I was expecting it. (the thing is, some of it is the writers dropping the ball, but some of it is, hmm, the constraints of the genre? Teyla's baby has to be special and significant somehow, or else there's no reason for it. TV scifi is not generally about 'slice of life' stories (though I wish there were a couple shows that were) and SGA is not particularly a story about family or child-rearing - those can be occasional themes, but not major arcs. There's very few significant events in the chars' in-show lives which are actually normal (the Katie Brown/Rodney relationship comes about the closest, and even that was only occasional and rather awkward and stiltedly unconvincing. Also 'normal' still means their first kiss was when Rodney was possessed by another consciousness. So, yes, case in point) because (broadly speaking) - this is scifi, and in scifi the normal/expected/realistic is boring! Main chars in scifi don't die of cancer (unless it's radiation or alien-induced) or car accidents (unless they're engineered by conspiracies), don't get married unless it's a set-up for life-altering tragedy/revenge arcs, and don't have kids unless they're spectacularly significant in some way. So I never expected Teyla's pregnancy to be ordinary, and this is about as close to normal as I could've expected.)

Woobie!Rodney was great. And while Carter didn't get a chance to sympathize with them about the qualms of friends returning from the grave, I loved the scene when she was arguing caution (wisely, I thought, since Carson could've been a trap, I wasn't convinced myself until the end that he was on the level and not a plant of Michael's somehow) and Sheppard was all pouty and clearly thinking, "But I've read the reports and you got Daniel Jackson back like a million times, can't we just have this one?"

Re: I am still very sleep deprived, please forgive any incoherent manifestoing!

[sholio]

I do see your point about pregnancy and normalcy; I think the problem is that I desperately *wished* it would be otherwise, and managed to convince myself that it actually *might* be otherwise -- so I kinda deserve my disappointment. *g*

I'm totally with you, about Sam's reactions being perfectly reasonable under the circumstances -- and, actually, since Michael turned out to be able to mind-control Carson, she was absolutely right!

I can never get enough of woobie!Rodney. Well, okay, that's not true; I'm sure I'd get very tired of it if that was all of him we ever saw. But he does "wounded and hurting" so very well, even when he's trying to cover it up with prickliness.

[derry667.livejournal.com]

Well, honestly, I liked the whole two-parter.

When Michael's plan for Teyla's baby was revealed I did think that you might not like it, but it didn't really have much impact on me. I suppose that I've sort of thought all along that having a normal baby grow up on Atlantis would be a logistics nightmare in terms of ongoing plot for an adventure sci-fi TV series. I mean, are they going to set up a daycare centre in the Gateroom or something? I don't think so. (Sorry, but as I'm typing this, my brother is playing game reviews by "Yahtzee" from escapistmagazine.com aloud in the background and I find his brand of staccato cynicism somehow creeping in). So, because I expected that there would have to be some plot twist to "remove" the baby some way, the idea that a villain might kidnap him (even to experiment on) seemed like a reasonably "logical" plot step to me.

I was also vaguely aware that Carson was to return. It was one of those terribly non-secret spoilers that you almost couldn't avoid knowing. And truth be told, I was almost dreading seeing him again because all the ways I thought they might bring him back seemed really lame to me. But the way they did bring him back was much less lame than I thought it would be. Cloning is kinda cliche for sci-fi, but the way they worked it in with Michael's story really worked for me. I always thought that the ethical "payback" of what his experiments had done to Michael should have been part of Carson's "downfall" from the moment I heard he was leaving in the first place. So having it "tacked on" to his return kinda works for me. And yes, he's conveniently out of the way again, but that's okay with me too. Again, I really didn't expect him to return on a full time basis. Keller has taken his place on his Atlantis and hence his medical presence is now redundant. They had to do something with him (like they had to with the baby once it's born) and locking him in stasis is again a bit cliche (see half a dozen fanfics that need a character out of the way for a bit) but it's still a logical step to take.

I *LOVED* the way all the reactions to his return were played by each character. Rodney trying to be "a good friend", but still being Rodney. The fact that he said that acknowledged that while finding he was a clone must be difficult forn Carson, Rodney himself can't help but feel like he's got his friend from the dead. Ronon not being able to talk about it (until the very end). Sheppard still being *SHEPPARD* and not getting teary-eyed or overly emotional - and appearing to support Rodney and Ronon in their emotional crisis. John isn't the type of guy to "lose it" in these emotional situations - instead he seemed (to me) to be almost an emotional bridge for the others. It's him that explains to Carson why Ronon won't talk to him. I've never really had the impression that Sam really was close to Carson, so a lack of interaction was not felt. The Beckett-Keller dynamic interested me because as I understood it, she knew the other Carson briefly and served under him before he died and she took over, but this Carson would have no memory of even meeting her. Those issues weren't specifically scripted, but I still liked the interplay between them. Teyla was a hostage elsewhere for most of the episode, but when she first sees Carson without any warning, her reaction was absolutely believable and in character.

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

Cynical or not, I think you have the right idea Derry. Babies in particular are difficult thing to deal with on set...Or at least they can be in the US. I am not sure what the laws in Vancouver are, but I am sure they are similar to the US in the amount of time a child can work on set.

Now I am not sure they are going to go as far as Micheal stealing the child...I think that is a bit risky and dark and if we were talking about say Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica I would say that is a very real possibility. But this Stargate Atlantis. I think it going to Kanan who will be the one that Teyla is going to search for. I think now they have found the Athosians Teyla might be more willing to go back to work as it were. She no longer has to fear that her child will be the last of his people and if she is dead there will be no one to tell him what a proud and honored people they were. I wonder if they will have the Athosians back in the city and they will the ones to care for the child while Teyla is at work.

On your other point...I think that some may have thought that once they brought back Carson they would chuck Keller away. And as much as I like Paul, I am glad they didn't go that route. They did that back in SG-1 when they brought back Daniel and then got rid of Jonas and I really did not want to see that again.

[derry667.livejournal.com]

I was so surprised and pleased when Halling reappeared. The actor plays Todd the Wraith too, doesn't he? Since Todd was already in the storyline, I really didn't expect to see Halling - never expected to see him again after the Athosians first disappeared several eps ago, actually. So I had a real YAY moment. And it's not like I even really liked Halling to start with (didn't hate him, but never really thought about him much), and yet it was a little bitr like Bates return all over again.

One another note, I've also got to say that while I really love seeing Lorne (and Caldwell too, since I haven't babbled about part 1) every time, I'm beginning to get ridiculously nervous every time Lorne goes on a mission that he won't make it back. They've killed off so many characters, both major and secondary, in the last season and a half. I feel like Lorne could get red-shirted at any time.

And honestly, I *LOVE* the Michael character. Always have. He's a bastard, but geez he's got some reason to be. The moral quagmire the Atlantis crew started way back when just keeps getting deeper, as IMHO it should. Consequences! Everything has consequences! I still love that about the whole Michael storyline.

I, for one, still can't wait to see how it goes from here.

[anniehow.livejournal.com]

I *LOVE* the Michael character

Oh, seconded! I love the arc they've had him going through, as well. In venegance he was out to destroy his enemies, and now he's literally making his "friends"...

[trystings.livejournal.com]

My initial reaction? Joe M: if fans ever ask you again to resurrect a character, ignore, refuse, play deaf. This didn't work for me at all. I liked Carson Beckett as a character, Sunday had a big emotional impact, the funeral, Rodney's sadness, everything rang true, and now this, a cloned Beckett, put away in storage until they can find a cure for old age. Arrgh! Yet another character who is dead but not really.

On the other hand, I enjoy villain Michael immensely, the best kind, creepy and horrible, but with a flicker of just cause and the way they've tied his storyline with Beckett, Hoff and Teyla's people and her pregnancy is very well done.

And Teyla finally found a handful of her people (among which were Joe F's kids. Awwww, too cute).

So, in conclusion, not a great episode, but I may have to watch it again - I was exhausted the other night, so it probably influenced my judgement.

[sholio]

For whatever it's worth, I find that I'm feeling more positive about the episode now that it's had some time to sink in and I've adjusted to the aspects I didn't really like.

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

I agree I would like to see John and Ronon taking Rodney out (however you define that in a place like Atlantis) and all three of them getting throughly smashed.

One of the main things about this episode I liked was it shows how far Rodney McKay as come as a character. The man in this episode wouldn't have needed to be told how important Teal'c was to Sam and the rest of the SGC. Now he still may have thought that there was no way Teal'c could still be alive (he is still tends to the worst case scenario much of the time) but he would have been a bit nicer about it.

I have mixed reaction to Sam. As you said, she has seen so much in her life at the SGC she should know that just about anything was possible, but on the other hand someone needed to stay objective and play devil's advocate. Normally that person is Rodney. But this time Rodney was to close to the situation to be objective. To understand that Carson2 could very well be a threat. And it turns out that she was right to be wary...this Carson does have a weakness. He can be controlled by Micheal at times. And I think the two years of being a prisoner have left their mark as well. So while in many ways he is the same as the Carson we lost in Sunday, in many ways he is not. This not to say that he any less worthy then the original, just that he is different and is his own person.

I also loved how protective Rodney was of Carson2. And the scene where Rodney was telling Carson2 about what happened, that they didn't even know he was missing (which he really wasn't) and that Carson then died...you could see that Rodney is still struggling with that. Which I think was why he latched on to this Carson2 so quickly. He thought he could get his friend back. And in some ways he was, and in some he wasn't.

While I would have liked if Rodney had some more support from his team, I could understand why he didn't. I don't think it was that John and Ronon didn't care - the scene at the end shows they did. I think it was more they were trying not care - because they didn't want to get hurt. Ronon says as much at the end. John too was doing his "if I don't show I care, it won't hurt as much when things go bad" mentality. He did defend Carson2 to Sam more the once. So his keeping Carson2 at arm's length to me was more about not wanting to get hurt then not trusting Carson2 or not caring.

[sholio]

Yeah, I think they were all having the problem of not wanting to let go and care and get hurt again. Which, I suppose, is exactly what ended up happening...

Looking back at my original post, I didn't mean to imply that I found Sam's reactions unrealistic or OOC. On the contrary, I thought she was very well justified in her position -- and, as it turned out, since Michael can control Carson2 at least a little bit, she was right!

[patk.livejournal.com]

>>Okay, so remember how my huge DO NOT WANT for this season was that I did not want a monster baby for Teyla?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.<<<

Hey, heads up. *g* So far the baby hasn't arrived and having the little bit of Wraith-DNA from both of his parents doesn't necessarily mean "monster-baby". After all, it's unlikely that Teyla's son is the very first Athosian who inherits it from both sides and *if* two "gifted" Athosians having a child would equal "monster-baby" as a result, the Athosians would surely know about this by now.

It just means the boy is important for Michael and his intentions and so far, all we have is Michael's intention to use the little boy for his own purposes. Doesn't mean it will actually happen this way. :-)

So, objectively all we have up to now is a little boy who still has to be borne and who will most likely have what the Athosians call "the gift" since both of his parents have it too. So far - no monster in sight.

There... feel better? *g*

I really liked the scene in the locker room where John compared the situation to the one with Elizabeth and through the whole episode you could see that he wanted to trust this Carson, despite Sam's reasonable suggestions to be careful. I got the impression that he knew that objectively he shouldn't trust Carson - or even the whole situation (in a "too good to be true"-sense) - so easily but actually *wanted* to trust him without being blind to possible dangers.

[patk.livejournal.com]

>>It just means the boy is important for Michael and his intentions and so far, all we have is Michael's intention to use the little boy for his own purposes. Doesn't mean it will actually happen this way. :-)<<

Which means, this is *not* a spoiler since I don't *know* what will happen. All I wanted to say is, that it's possible that Michael's plans will not pan out as he hopes.

I know, bad style to comment on my own comment but since editing the original comment doesn't work for me I though this would be better than let you think you were again spoiled against you will.

[greyias.livejournal.com]

I think they (and Ronon ... that sad little hug still breaks me) need to go get really drunk together now.

...darn you (http://community.livejournal.com/sga_flashfic/716564.html).

I too wish we had gotten more teaminess over the course of the episode, but I guess it was a "so much you can do in 42 minutes" thing. For some reason the writers think that one scene is plenty to whet our appetite. Rodney definitely needed a hug, although I think Teyla is the only one who would initiate them for comfort. (Ronon's always seem to be "You're alive!/I'm alive!/I'm going to miss you!" types).

I think one of my single favorite moments (other than flailing protective Rambo Rodney) of this episode was the safe rescue of the Athosians. I had really been expecting them to be a casualty of the storyline. I'm really hoping they decide to resettle with the Expedition. I mean, the new mainland has giant flying snakes, but makes it harder for psycho Pseudo-Wraiths to kidnap their entire population.

Bring on next week and the inevitable season finale cliffhanger!

[sholio]

LOL. I love being a bad influence.

Good question ... I wonder where they'll put the Athosians? New Athos has sorta been compromised -- if I were them, I don't think I'd want to go back there. But I can also see why they'd want their own planet rather than being dependent on the expedition to use the Stargate.

[iamrighthere.livejournal.com]

I haven't read all of the responses here because life is a little too short for that. However, I felt the episode was deeply emotional, although not in a team-y sort of way. There was Rodney's desperation to believe in Carson, as well as his having to explain about the real Carson's death and Elizabeth's heroic demise. Then there was the Teyla stuff, which got a bit maudlin and horrid and made me think about just how dark the episode was getting. In fact, the sonogram part was almost unnecessarily gasp-worthy, especially when Michael injected some awful stuff into Teyla's perfect, beautiful child.

Somehow I think they left the heavy emotional Atlantis-based output for Rodney because Sheppard wasn't all that emotive about things and Ronon was downright cagey. Fine. Rodney spilled buckets of pathos all over the set, so at least we got that.

[sheron]

There's only ONE ep left? Oh noes!

Anyway, I loved Rodney/Carson in this ep, and that Carson asked for his mother. I liked how Rodney had to explain about Elizabeth. I liked how John did the unshakable leader thing about how they'll find Teyla and of course they'll solve Carson's buggy genes. And Rodney wouldn't give up for a moment. I really felt in that in that moment Rodney and John were the leaders of Atlantis. Sam did her part but she'll never be as close to Carson as the original members of the expedition so there was no personal hurt. But the rest of them must look to John and Rodney for that kind of never-say-die attitude. Rodney has really come a long way in believing in himself and his team. I'm sure he's terrified out of his wits, but I keep noticing the way he is now saying things like "They'll mount a rescue" almost dismissively, when it was such a trust issue for him in the past.

Also, I kept thinking, with all the people they've lost, especially with the way they lost Elizabeth they must be totally freaking about Teyla.