sholio | Doctor Who season 2

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Doctor Who season 2

Done with season 2...

I'm constantly impressed by the writing in this series, as an anthology-type show. "Love & Monsters" was just brilliant; I loved it to pieces. This show continues to be an odd, amazing mix of total cheese and genuine suspense and pathos -- the Satan 2-parter was a good example of that, because ... they fought Satan! And in a total "Aliens"-type, monsters-on-the-spaceship, B-movie setting. That episode should have been sheer, unbearable idiocy! And yet the crew were so vividly drawn that I really didn't want them to die, and it was so tense and claustophobic on the ship, and the security guy's sacrifice made me sad, and the captain and the other two surviving at the end made me EEEEE! I've mentioned before that this show really reminds me of 1950s/60s SF books, and that episode really had that feeling to it -- total Ray Bradbury, where the setting is completely absurd and yet the writing is compelling enough that it sucks you in.

"Love and Monsters", as I said, was wonderful -- it was wonderfully, darkly funny and then took this sudden 90-degree turn into OUCH. I really love well-done outsider POVs on my canonverses, and New Who is turning out to be fantastic at doing those.

I liked the Olympic episode with the little girl, even though the ending with the Doctor lighting the torch? Hopeless, hopeless cheese! Although ... I could totally see him doing that -- seizing an opportunity to light the torch ... especially this Doctor with his pronounced showmanship streak. And I loved that the creepy baddie in that episode turned out to be a lost child trying to find its way home; such a neat twist, and so much better and more poignant than having it be something to be fought and killed.

The finale two-parter -- yay! for seeing Mickey and Jake and alt-Pete again! I really thought that we'd seen the last of them. Lots of neat moments, some giggles (because, seriously, the Dalek vs. Cybermen confrontation was hilarious in an Alien vs. Predator sort of way), and then ... uh, the ending.

I don't really want to turn this into a rant about Rose. Honestly, I'm not feeling all that ranty, because I'm mostly warm and fuzzy towards the series. But, you know, I really did lose a lot of my remaining respect for her at the end. In two years (or however long it's been for her) of traveling with the Doctor, she really hasn't learned anything. They left Mickey stranded alone in an alternate universe infested by Cybermen, and he picked up a gun and saved the world. They left Rose stranded in an alternate universe (a peaceful universe, with her parents and Mickey, no less) and she ... takes a dead-end job at the shop, cries every night and then uproots her parents and drags them across the continent in pursuit of the Doctor? I ... I ... just ... what?

I sympathize with Rose feeling like her travels with the Doctor were the high point of her life, and everything after that being downhill. Really, I do. But real inner strength is feeling that way and then getting up and going on, living your life and making a difference. And Rose doesn't seem to have that. I can sympathize with her, but I can't really find it in myself to respect her, or -- after those final scenes -- even really to like her all that much. The goodbye scene with the Doctor and Rose didn't really do a whole lot for me, because her codependency just seemed more creepy to me than anything else. All the emotion being thrown around didn't make me feel it, in the same way as some of the other emotional scenes in the last few episodes (Jackie meeting alt-Pete, the guy in "Love & Monsters" losing Ursula) made me feel them. The ending of "Fear Her", with the mom and the little girl beating back the dad's spectre by leaning on each other, actually made me tear up. But the goodbye with the Doctor and Rose ... not really. To me, Rose came across mostly as an object of pity in those last scenes.

I don't expect my characters to be paragons of virtue. I love to watch flawed people pick themselves up and fall and try again. But where Rose is at the end of her two seasons -- that's where I want my protagonists to be at the beginning. Depending on another person for all your self-esteem needs and being pretty useless without them ... that's a great starting point, but not really much of an ending point. At least, that's my take on the whole thing. She's had her moments, and yes, there have been times when she's done things that are really impressive and self-sacrificing. But at the end, she's still pursuing the Doctor and using the people around her as objects of convenience; she's still fixated on him to the exclusion of living her life. And, I'm sorry, but that's just not healthy, and something that I feel needs to be fixed in her.

Er, I guess it did turn into a rant on Rose. Um. Sorry. Really, it's the only thing in the series that bugs me, but it's just such a big, ever-present thing, so I guess I fixate on it.

But now we get Season 3! And then we are done! Eeek!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I liked the continuity of the episodes; things seen in past episodes come back to haunt the Doctor; the Dalek's, Cybermen and Cassandra.

In the first season Bad Wolf was teased all the way through and then season 2 built well upon the established storylines. Twisting and pushing them.

Oh, I LOVE the continuity, and the way that episodes refer back to previous episodes! I noticed that "Torchwood" was sort of this season's "Bad Wolf" -- the ongoing thread that wove itself into each episode in subtle ways. (And Bad Wolf was even mentioned a few times in the finale! Very neat!)

And I know he's the timelord but all the intricacies of time - the rules, the paradoxes, the manipulations were covered and very well conceived especially with the continuity.

Daleks vs Cybermen are one of the BEST THINGS EVER, and I will never stop giggling when people quote insults from their first meeting at me. *grin*

They left Rose stranded in an alternate universe (a peaceful universe, with her parents and Mickey, no less) and she ... takes a dead-end job at the shop, cries every night and then uproots her parents and drags them across the continent in pursuit of the Doctor? I ... I ... just ... what?

But she doesn't take a dead-end job! She starts working for Torchwood! Which is far more admirable. And I wasn't thinking she uprooted her parents as much as she took them on a roadtrip, driving a couple of days (since they seem to have been to impatient to take a ferry across) for where the Doctor would show up. Since they would've had access to their universe's Torchwood, they could have tracked the last piece of the Rift themselves. (In the Torchwood series, Jack and his team have a "Rift monitor" in their base; it's pretty much what Torchwood is supposed to do.)

Though, yes, the shop is mentioned - but she was just joking about that. First time I watched it, I thought she had gone back to the shop and was going to work for Torchwood, but the actual dialog implies it's what she went straight to doing. I found a transcript. ^_^

-Yeah, I'm back working in the shop.

-Oh, good for you.

-Shut up! Nah, I'm not.
The Torchwood on this planet's still open for business.
I think I know a thing or two about aliens.

-Rose Tyler. Defender of the Earth.

Which makes me see the ending in a totally different light, and cry because it hurts when things end, and that goodbye is so final... I do feel sorry for Rose, but I think she's going to get through it - she's already found herself something worthwhile to do, and I love that she's living with her parents and Mickey and new little sibling in a big house all together. ♥

You know, it's odd, I never even considered that Rose had actually gone back to the shop. I remember WTF'ing when she said the line, and then laughing when it was obviously just a joke! And I have such a vivid image of Rose in Torchwood, being as bad-ass as anyone in TW has to be, and all the wild adventures she's having...(though I do wonder how the Mickey situation will shake out. Poor Jake is gonna lose another boyfriend, I fear...)

I almost cried at the end of "Doomsday", but for the Doctor, not for Rose...but then, I thought that Rose was crying for the Doctor, too. Goodbyes hurt, but Rose has so much love - it's the Doctor who has no one to comfort him after the connection breaks. ...Well, except his trusty TARDIS of course! <3 And what unique ways she finds to do it, too...! (have I mentioned how much I love that theory of yours?)

have I mentioned how much I love that theory of yours?

Possibly, but feel free to mention it again! ^_^

(My theory is that the TARDIS is so very not subtly dropping big distractions at the Doctor when he starts thinking about sitting around angsting. Such as one totally unexpected, very angry bride...)

First time I watched it, I thought she had gone back to the shop and was going to work for Torchwood, but the actual dialog implies it's what she went straight to doing.

Oh! What you described as your first impression, that was mine too -- I totally didn't catch the "No I'm not", and thought she'd just gone back to her old life (to the extent she could in the other universe) but was kinda thinking about working for Torchwood. That puts a little bit different spin on that scene, doesn't it...! Still, the depth of her moping, "the day the Doctor left me was the day I died" (which she reiterates several times through the narration voice-over) ... I appreciate that you guys like Rose, and thanks for the correction on the dialogue, because it does make her sound less, well, pathetic. But I don't think she's ever going to be one of my favorite characters.

However, I do agree it's sweet that they're all living together (and the scene near the end where her father caught her? Much "Yay!" for alt-Pete! He really grew on me in this episode...) And trash-talking Daleks and Cybermen are just awesome!

Hey, I'm just ridiculously happy to find that we can disagree on something (and something I was kind of afraid was going to turn you off the show), and still share the love and squee! ♥

Plus, I've seen much worse, in both directions - to the one who hate her for being a terrible companion, to the ones who worship her, and consider her and the Doctor the one OTP ever, and hate RTD for breaking them up, and Martha for not being Rose. Um. Again - uh, thank you for being sane? ^^;;

Having read

xparrot's post, I can just say that she expressed pretty much everything I feel - sure, Rose gets parted from the Doctor (and declared officially dead, which sounds cooler than "the day I got stuck in a parallel universe" in the narration), but the Doctor is the one who ends up alone. Again. He always ends up alone, and that's the real tragedy for me.

One of the best things about the Daleks vs Cybermen is watching the Confidentials for that ep, and all the fanboys (ie RTD, David Tennant, and pretty much everyone else behind the scenes) are all going isn't it COOL?!, because they've been having the Daleks vs Cybermen argument since they were in pre-school, and now they're getting to do it on screen. They're so cute. ♥

You are so much better at this being sane gambit than me, I keep going off on rants (I'm not a lunatic,

friendshipper, I just play one on lj? ^^;) and forgetting to mention the truly important things, like Daleks vs Cybermen being the BEST THING IN THE UNIVERSE. Most especially because of the fanboyism. It's the Brit equivalent of Batman vs Superman and they got to film it!

"You are superior in only one respect: you are better at dying!" PWNED! XDDD

*pats* It's okay, neechan - Kyoto summer; your sanity has probably melted in the heat. ♥

"Dalek have no concept of elegance."
"That is obvious."

BWAH! (Yes, we do frequently quote the Dalek/Cyberman trash-talk at home, why do you ask?)

Hey, I'm just ridiculously happy to find that we can disagree on something (and something I was kind of afraid was going to turn you off the show), and still share the love and squee!

LOL! After all the SGA squee, it's actually kind of a relief to find that we do disagree on anything!

I was thinking about my impatience with Rose in light of our earlier conversation about identifying with characters and gravitating towards male rather than female characters. And I think it *is* impatience with Rose's immaturity (the immaturity that I perceive, anyway) rather than actually disliking her, precisely because I can identify with it. Because I've been that teenager, wearing my heart on my sleeve and taking every heartbreak as the end of the world, and after going through that and then outgrowing it, I relate much better to characters who are a little more emotionally self-contained. (Actually, the characters I enjoy most seem to be emotionally stunted social retards, which is unhealthy in quite the opposite direction...)

(and declared officially dead, which sounds cooler than "the day I got stuck in a parallel universe" in the narration)

Hee! Yeah, I understand that it's in there for dramatic effect, and actually, I thought they did a good job of setting up the uncertainty -- for a while, I thought she was actually trapped in the void in some kind of purgatory. But once the whole story unfolds, it kinda comes across as teenage "OMG my life is over" melodrama ... to me. I mean, it may be there primarily for dramatic effect, but regardless of the narrative reason, we're still stuck with those words as the character's internal thoughts at the time, yeah?

all the fanboys (ie RTD, David Tennant, and pretty much everyone else behind the scenes) are all going isn't it COOL?!, because they've been having the Daleks vs Cybermen argument since they were in pre-school, and now they're getting to do it on screen. They're so cute.

I love it when shows are run by geeks. Eeeheee! XD We borrowed the DVDs from one of my co-workers, so now I can see the Confidentials for the episodes too -- I'll maybe watch some of those this weekend, because we weren't planning on jumping into Season 3 immediately.

LOL! After all the SGA squee, it's actually kind of a relief to find that we do disagree on anything!

And now I'm agreeing with you on that. *grin*

Because I've been that teenager, wearing my heart on my sleeve and taking every heartbreak as the end of the world, and after going through that and then outgrowing it, I relate much better to characters who are a little more emotionally self-contained.

See, that's really interesting! I'd never thought of Rose that way, but it does make sense to me. I don't have that same reaction, but

xparrot's covered that quite thoroughly already, so.

Now I'm curious, though - have you watched Buffy? And if so, did that ping the same "been there; done that" reaction in you?

But once the whole story unfolds, it kinda comes across as teenage "OMG my life is over" melodrama ... to me.

Again, in the light of the identification discussion - this is something that resonated completely differently with me, because I've had a lot of these emotional farewells in my life - nothing traumatic, but just enough that the thought of a permanent parting, and saying good-bye like that - it really hits home on an emotional plane. (I also kind of hate endings, and can get ridiculously sad over something being over.)

I mean, it may be there primarily for dramatic effect, but regardless of the narrative reason, we're still stuck with those words as the character's internal thoughts at the time, yeah?

Oh, absolutely! Especially since the last episode opens with flashes of her waiting on the beach as she thinks about it.

I love it when shows are run by geeks. Eeeheee! XD We borrowed the DVDs from one of my co-workers, so now I can see the Confidentials for the episodes too -- I'll maybe watch some of those this weekend, because we weren't planning on jumping into Season 3 immediately.

Yay! Cool! The ones I remember as being especially fun are the first one (introducing David Tennant), and the one for "Army of Ghosts" - I think it was called "Welcome to Torchwood"?

Though I think the Confidentials on the DVD aren't full-length? When they air, they're a full 40+ minutes, but the UK DVDs only have cut-down versions of them. Though I can't imagine them not having the interviews with RTD and David Tennant, and those are the best bits. ♥

As noted in my answer to

xparrot below, I think I appreciate Rose more for her role in the series, and her relationship to the Doctor, than for herself -- watching "Runaway Bride" (yes, we started on Season 3 ... so much for waiting) really made me notice how much Rose brought out his playful side, his sense of wonder. Like John Winchester in SPN, I think I like her better as an off-camera ideal than as a character -- in Rose's case, the way that she affects the Doctor.

Now I'm curious, though - have you watched Buffy? And if so, did that ping the same "been there; done that" reaction in you?

Kind of. Hmm. Maybe? Some of the time.

I liked Buffy, but it was one of those shows that I didn't really get fannish about. Thinking about it ... I guess that the immaturity of the characters did get to me a little bit, sometimes -- but not so much usually, because the show itself would poke fun at that aspect of them from time to time. While it's really hard to say what makes characters affect me in the ways that they do, I think that's one of the big factors: whether the show takes the characters seriously most of the time, or whether it gives the audience the opportunity to laugh at them once in a while. I think with Rose, the serious-to-dorky ratio was off ... for me at least.

Huh! The crazy thing here is that I pretty much totally agree with you on what inner strength is - "real inner strength is feeling that way and then getting up and going on, living your life and making a difference" - but this is exactly how I see Rose at the series' end!

naye already mentioned the shop thing - I honestly never even realized there was any ambiguity there; I went WTF when she said the "shop" line, then laughed and cheered at her "shut up", which is so very much teasing and almost insulted that he'd think so little of her. Of course she's working for Torchwood, what else would she do, after traveling with the Doctor? No one could just go back to their ordinary lives after that. Rose couldn't at the end of Series 1 and I don't see why she would now.

My image of Rose is that she does get one with her life, she joins TW and saves the world with her dad and Mickey (and eventually she & Mickey have kids and rotate who gets to stay home with them and who gets to travel the solar system....) She's never going to forget the Doctor, but she's not going to let the loss end her life; instead she's going to live as she learned to live with him. She did get the goodbye that Sarah Jane had been waiting for, after all; there's no point to "School Reunion" if Rose can't move on, too. I felt like that was the point of the goodbye at the end of "Doomsday", to give Rose the final closure she needed. Rose Tyler of our Earth, the Doctor's Rose, is dead & gone, her story ended; Rose Tyler of Pete's World is just beginning her own journey.

I guess my thing with Rose is that I ultimately interpreted her relationship with the Doctor as a generous thing, as being about him, about her putting him first even over herself, which is the sort of co-dependent love I tend to squee over. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation! At the very end, Rose isn't asking the Doctor, "what am I going to do" - because she already knows that, she's got a good life. She's asking "what are you going to do?" - what hurts her the most is knowing he's alone. Much of Rose's devotion I interpreted as her understanding the Doctor's loneliness, of wanting to do anything to alleviate it. She loves traveling with him, and being with him, but I think when she vows to stay with him forever, it's not about her; it's about him, it's about helping him not be alone. In "Doomsday" she tells Jackie, "I've had a life with you for 19 years" (I don't think Rose has been with the Doctor even a year, her time, though I'm not sure) and then she mentions everyone she's seen the Doctor help, and "he does it alone." Rose is willing to throw away the rest of her life to be with the Doctor, but I see her as having an awareness that this is a sacrifice. When she comes back to him - she knows she'll never see her mother and Mickey and her dad again, for all she was willing to do so much for the chance to have her dad back, for all that she knows already how losing Mickey hurts.

For me, that didn't feel like an easy decision for her to make; it felt like loyalty, like keeping the promise she'd made to the Doctor. She knew Mickey and her parents would be safe, and Jackie would have Pete, and Mickey already choose life without her; I don't see leaving them as selfish. And I think at the end what upsets her the most is that she's breaking her promise, that she's abandoning the Doctor, even more than her own grief at losing him.

--er, anyway, that's just my raving lunatic's thoughts; I'll shut up now! You're done with Rose now anyway, and I rather think you will like Martha - I actually prefer Martha myself, but I really quite love both her and Rose. Which makes me weird as a Who-fan, as far as I can tell, because I'll charge to the defense of either of them, while most fen seem to have a preference! (After you've seen some series 3 I'll throw my Martha-Rose comparison at you...)

Oh, and a bit belatedly, happi basudei! ^_^

At the very end, Rose isn't asking the Doctor, "what am I going to do" - because she already knows that, she's got a good life. She's asking "what are you going to do?" - what hurts her the most is knowing he's alone.

See, I *want* to see it that way, and there were times during the goodbye scene when I *did* see it that way -- that she's hurting for him more than for herself. But everything leading up to that ... in her voiceover narration, she repeats over and over that her life's over, that the Doctor left and now she's "dead" -- which sounds way more like she's hurting for herself than him. Actually it sounds like a teenage moping fit more than anything. I just came away with a general impression that she's sort of curled up and gone into a depression fit and stopped living once she lost him, which I just ... can't get behind. At all.

However, you're right that I did misinterpret that line of dialogue -- like I said in my answer to

naye, I missed the part where it's a joke. And that does make her look a little more positive, a little less weepy and more ilke she's doing something useful with her life. (But still willing to throw it away to go off in the Tardis -- not that I can blame her.)

I actually think I might've been happier with Rose without the epilogue -- if the episode had just cut off where she's crying, and the Doctor puts his cheek against the wall and walks away. That really touched me; it was sweet and sad and I liked it. The final scene was just ... too much, maybe. Too much weeping and too much evidence that she's still willing to drop the life she's made on a moment's notice and use the people around her as she needs to, in order to chase after the Doctor. Rather than feeling like Rose is building a new life for herself, I left the second season with the feeling that she's going to spend the rest of her life waiting for him to come back, with a backpack packed up under the stairs just in case she has to leave at a moment's notice. There is certainly *some* altruism in the way she feels -- I can see that, definitely. But I think mostly it's for her, not him, that she wants to go with him.

Besides, she *knows*, from meeting Sarah Jane, that he has had a string of companions in the past and will probably continue to do so in the future. "He'll be lonely forever without me!" is just adolescent hystrionics again, isn't it? He'll move on and find someone else. He always has in the past; she's seen obvious evidence of that. And yet, that speech to her mother -- "He does it alone" ... which is, yes, moving, but it's also a little irritating (to me) that she dismisses the other Companions that way, as if she's the only one who can offer him companionship and he'll be truly and completely alone without her despite all evidence to the contrary.

LOL. Yes, not a big Rose fan. I know you like her, and I like her in some ways, but she's never going to be one of my favorites, I fear.

Well, you're definitely not alone in your Rose-dislike, I've seen rants by folks who hate her passionately and eternally (for not being as cool as other companions, for daring to love the Doctor, for almost getting the Doctor to admit to loving her, for other reasons I wouldn't know because I tend to back away slowly when the fandom gets too hysterical, which is, err...let's just say I spend more time backing away than going towards...)

I think most of it is interpretation...Rose saying she "died", as I said, I see that (other than the need to build dramatic tension, which is the major point) as Rose acknowledging the end of her life with the Doctor - but not denying that she has a new life. I don't think she's waiting for him to come back, I think when she goes to the bay she goes for a goodbye, with the slight hope she might get to go through, but not really expecting it. It's not like she's waiting with a bag on the beach; she's just standing there to talk to him. And I can't see her as using her family, not when they've come with her willingly; she could've driven there herself, but they wanted to come, to give her support. I don't see relying on your family's love as weak or selfish, not when they knew the Doctor, too, not when they are also feeling for him as well as for Rose.

The thing is, the Doctor is alone, even with all his companions; he'll always lose them, and it haunts him. She knows he can find new companions...but it would be a terribly selfish thing, I think, for Rose to go, "Oh, he'll find someone else, he'll be fine, I can go off with my mum & all and just abandon him." In "School Reunion" she saw how goodbyes hurt him - the Doctor hates farewells, he always prefers "see you later" and wouldn't even tell Sarah Jane a real goodbye until she forced it.

...dangit, now I'm getting the urge again to write that fic, with Rose in the future and what might become of her...

But anyway! Sorry you dislike Rose enough for it to spoil your enjoyment of the show, I do hope you like Martha better!

The thing is, the Doctor is alone, even with all his companions; he'll always lose them, and it haunts him. She knows he can find new companions...but it would be a terribly selfish thing, I think, for Rose to go, "Oh, he'll find someone else, he'll be fine, I can go off with my mum & all and just abandon him."

You mean like she does to everyone else who loves her anytime the Doctor needs her? *g*

See, I'm really not convinced that she's more worried about the Doctor's loneliness than her own. It's evident from "School Reunion" that she feels very threatened by the idea of anyone else being as close to the Doctor as she is. That's not the behavior of someone who's worried about their lonely friend and wants them to be less lonely; it's the behavior of someone who fears being abandoned and lonely herself -- the behavior of a jealous lover or a child afraid of losing a parent's affection. Which is, yes, understandable, sympathetic even ... but certainly not altruistic.

I'm not saying that I want Rose to be perfectly altruistic all the time. I'm not interested in paragons of virtue; I like my characters with shades of gray. What bothers me about her is that the other characters' behavior towards her seems to indicate that they think she's brave and giving and loving and wonderful -- but the way I see her, she acts more like a kid: a fairly brave kid, but still with the selfishness and lack of emotional maturity of someone who's still in the process of growing up. And she seems to lean very heavily for other people for her sense of self-worth, especially given that the other characters act like they think she's a pillar of strength.

It seems like most of what Rose does in the series is react rather than act. There are a few times when we see her take action, be the instrument of her own fate rather than orbiting the Doctor -- when she's mobilizing the crewpeople on the drilling station in the Satan episode, for example. I like that Rose. I want more of that Rose! Not the Rose who chases a fantasy across Europe so that she can cry on a beach ...

Sorry you dislike Rose enough for it to spoil your enjoyment of the show

Oh, but neither one of those is true -- I don't dislike her, and it doesn't spoil my enjoyment! I like the show just fine, and I hope that I don't sound like a crazy ranting character-basher here. My character-bashing rants are well-reasoned, dammit! *g*

No ... I doubt if we're ever going to see eye to eye on this character; on the other hand, I didn't really like Dean when I started watching SPN, and look how that turned out! My views on characters do change, although in this case I think I've liked her less the more of her I've seen. I'm not sure how much it helps, really, to go on arguing the anti-Rose viewpoint either, because I know that you like her and it's not as if either one of us is that likely to convince the other one. And, as you said, a lot of it comes down to differing interpretations of the same scenes in canon.

As I said to

naye, I think that my feelings towards Rose are more like impatience than actual dislike; she seems to me like a promising individual who still has a lot of growing up to do, but isn't really moving towards that. I don't wish the character ill, and I don't begrudge those who like her, but I would have liked to see her character development go in a different direction than it actually did in canon -- as I see canon, anyhow. It really is very much a matter of interpretation.

Ahhhh - I'm really not trying to brainwash you, I swear ^^; It're more of that the Rose-Doctor relationship is a big enough part of the show that I'm...sad you can't enjoy it? Which is crazy, really, since you are liking the show anyway, like you say! Um, I will choose to blame the madness on the cicadas buzzing outside the window (seriously, if you could hear how loud those buggers are it'd be an acceptable excuse!)

Though it's interesting because arguing the char has been solidifying why I like her; I did all along, but I wasn't as clear why. And some of the things that turn you off so much are some of the things I enjoy and appreciate about her char. Her emotionality especially - the Doctor depends so much on repression and forgetting to survive that it was good for him to be close to someone who was so expressive, who could cry even when he would not.

--In the end that might be what it comes down to; I like Rose, but as I said I like Martha more - but I like the Doctor more than any companion, and I appreciate Rose most in relationship to the Doctor, in what she meant for the Doctor. I cared enough about Rose to want to know what happened to her (and projected an evolution onto her that we may or may not have seen); but it was the Doctor's evolution, the aftermath of the Time War, that most interested me, and Rose helped him with that, so...I liked her best for that!

Ahhhh, cicadas! ^_^ That explains much ...

No ... I do understand, being squeeful about a character and wanting to share it ... I'm sorry for my, er, Rose anti-squee! Though her character is not really to my taste, I definitely see what you mean about Rose's importance to the Doctor -- we're watching "Runaway Bride" right now, and his cheerful mask over heartbreak is just *breaking* me.

I think for me, it's easier to like Rose in context -- seeing the Doctor interacting with Donna makes it obvious how much Rose's youth and emotional openness brought out his playful side, his ability to revel in the wonder around him. Without her, he's certainly still *him*, but a little darker.

I am so not kidding about the cicadas. We're on the 4th floor but the apartment across the way has a roof garden, and the little blighters are loud enough to wake me at 6 AM, fearing my AC unit's about to explode, until I realize it's INSECTS making that racket. It's actually pretty impressive.

I gotta admit, the Rose conundrum intrigues me in part because we do have similar tastes in many things, so I find it interesting that we could have such opposite interpretations of the same char/episodes! What'd you think of Donna, out of curiosity? (Do you have the spoilers on that yet?)

I know you're not kidding about the cicadas. I remember what those damn things were like when I lived in Illinois. Definitely something I don't miss about moving back here ...

I think I know the Donna spoiler, but don't tell me, just in case I'm wrong. ^_^ And I like her quite a lot, actually. She's very fun in an abrasive-yet-sweet kind of way! And I like Martha, so far (as of one episode with her). On the other hand, I genuinely liked Rose at first and then it kinda went downhill as the show went on. So far, though, I quite like the new cast members, so ... we'll see! My husband is out of town currently, so it'll be a few days before I can watch any more; my family is going to be visiting for a day or two, but I intend to see about fitting in a couple of the Confidentials if I can!

We get a few cicadas in New England, but not this racket! It's a new thing to me...and if you try to complain about it to anyone Japanese, they just stare at you. "But it's the sound of summer!" People actually buy and import cicadas to city gardens. Madness! (at least they don't freak me like cockroaches do. I find cicadas themselves cute, as far as insects go, they're so big and clumsy and slow, like little flying turtles...)

Flying turtles! Hee! I hated the cicadas in Illinois -- not for themselves so much (as insects go, they don't bother me) but for the noise they made. The trees were full of them -- every oak and maple making a goddawful racket, day and night. When I think of Illinois, one of the main things that sticks in my mind is driving down the street with the Doppler effect of all the cicadas in the trees...

Cockroaches are the only kind of insect that really give me the heebie-jeebie feeling. Another of my not-so-pleasant Illinois memories is picking up a double handful of spilled dog kibbles on the porch, and discovering too late that it was absolutely crawling with cockroaches -- positively writhing with them. And I reacted like a total girl -- screamed, threw my hands out, sending kibble and cockroaches flying everywhere... very embarrassing...

I'm with you, xparrot: I totally saw Rose as not pathetic, but missing the Doctor and very worried about him. It's fabulous that they get to say goodbye--but even then the Doctor can't manage to finish what he's saying.

I'll have to dig out the ep, but I thought she sounded not so much "pathetic" in those voice-overs as . . . awed, overwhelmed. She's dead to her own world, but here she's alive. She's got her Dad back--and that means a tremendous amount.

And of course there's the dramatic thing: they wrote it that way because they want us to think she dies.

I cried at the end; I wept. And I wasn't weeping for Rose, who has a new place for herself that still takes some getting used to, but I think now she's ready to move on. I wept for the Doctor, because he wasn't ready, and he hurts so badly at that point, but he won't even admit it.

Yes, 'awed' is how I took her voice-overs, too. And I think they were mostly for dramatic effect, like you say, but after the fact I interpreted what she was saying as acknowledging the end of her old life - and the start of her new one, which I imagine to be all kinds of amazing and exciting. Though that is only in my imagination!

I don't usually cry at TV but I almost did there...I love those final scenes, they broke my heart, and yes, it was for the Doctor, and how he didn't have anyone's shoulder to cry on himself. I saw Rose as crying for him more than for herself, which I could only see as right. If Rose had traveled with the Doctor, enjoyed herself and not cared that he would be hurt by her leaving - that would have been terribly selfish, to my thought. I loved the way she asked him what he was going to do...I wish she'd asked him to find someone else, but she's young and saying goodbye to her first love and it's one of those right things to say that you don't think of until the minute after he's disappeared forever...

I didn't like Season two as well myself, except for "New Earth", the school ep (Sarah Jane, K-9, and Tony Head!! wheeee!), The Girl in the Fireplace, and the alt-Earth eps (I love Jakey!) I agree totally about Rose's character degeneration! And I fully expected them to make her turn out to be Gallifreyan, thanks to the first season's finale with the Tardis, and allow her to regenerate so that she & the doctor could stay together! *pout* So I ficced that exactly that happens to her in the other universe, and she meets that verion's 9. ;)

Ha! Oh, goodness, I didn't even think about the idea that she could have had regenerative powers! Interesting idea ... for a fic ... but my God, I'm glad they didn't go that route on the actual show, because if canon Rose seemed like kind of a Mary Sue before, the idea of Rose with the Gallifreyan regenerative powers ... eek!

But, you know, I really did lose a lot of my remaining respect for her at the end. In two years (or however long it's been for her) of traveling with the Doctor, she really hasn't learned anything.

I agree so very much. I can't like Rose unless I pretend that most of S2 just didn't happen, because I see a fairly independent character turn into someone who just...is a shadow of what she started out to be. It's like being with the Doctor actually regresses her in some ways, and it's sad to watch.

I can sympathize with her, but I can't really find it in myself to respect her, or -- after those final scenes -- even really to like her all that much. The goodbye scene with the Doctor and Rose didn't really do a whole lot for me, because her codependency just seemed more creepy to me than anything else.

I don't like that the show ends up giving me the impression that Rose ends up on suicide watch because she just can't carry on. Not the best way to end the season.

Also! People who loved Love and Monsters (LIKE ME) are in a sad minority in fandom, so it gave me a bit of a thrill to see you liked it!

Oh, I'm glad it's not just me! Suicide watch ... yeah. Heh. And maybe the show didn't *mean* to leave us with that impression of her, but OMFG, I certainly think it does! I started out liking Rose, with occasional moments of irritation at her immaturity, but I expected that to improve. And it just ... didn't improve.

But "Love and Monsters" was awesome!

I was such a Rose fan! And by the end of S2 I was just so disappointed in the characterisation. It was such a downer, because I really am a fan of the show. (But hang in there, because I have my fingers crossed that you will be a Marthafan! She's pretty awesome.)

I loved that episode, and no one ever seems to like it! It was just adorable in a slightly quirky, off-centre, almost dark way.

I did like her in the beginning! And even towards the end, there were times when I'd think, "Oh, go Rose!" ... like when she's mobilizing her troops and getting people to fight back against the Ood on the drilling station. I want more of that Rose! Not the Rose who can most charitably be described as "clingy"...

Aside from the whole Rose issue, I think one problem I had with the S2 finale is that I just like my emotions more understated and less in-your-face. I was really noticing in the "Runaway Bride" episode (we started S3 tonight) that the Doctor faltering and then slapping a cheerful face over his pain really hit me hard. Weepy hugs on the beach don't get me with nearly the punch of one small scene of the Doctor talking about Christmas dinner and then realizing what he's lost.

I like Martha just based on one episode! And my husband gets the cookie for immediately noticing that she was the same actress who was in the finale as the Torchwood technician (or, as he put it: "Wait a minute, isn't she dead?"). I am so clueless at recognizing faces that it's not even funny; I actually keep sticky notes of physical traits vs. names in my desk drawer when I start a new job to remind me who's who. But, yeah, I like her quite a lot so far. She has a nice dynamic with the Doctor. (And, hey, she actually *is* a doctor! That could really come in handy...)

Hmmm... late to the party again, but not as late as last time ;-)

I see we are still more or less on the same page about Rose still. Don't hate her - just disappointed by the lack of character growth and bewildered why people keep saying she's so strong and wonderful when she seems more pouty and entrenched in the idea that the universe revolves around her and her relationship with the Doctor. If they didn't keep telling me how wonderful she was, I probably wouldn't mind her - but since they do keep harping on that, it does grate on my nerves a bit.

Whether she worked for Torchwood or at the shop is neither here nor there for me. She still doesn't seem to think beyond her own wants and needs (and *possibly* the Doctor, and maybe she just really wants and needs to *believe* that the Last of the Time Lords can't live without her) And yet like you, I don't *want* to be a Rose-basher. I'm just still so very bewildered by the constant in-your-face propoganda about how wonderful she is.

And a couple more "me too" things. I also liked "Love and Monsters" whereas there are a lot of other people I know who hated it. I really didn't think it would polarise viewpoints as much as it did. I thought it was interestingly played and the characters were quite sympathetic. There's a roughly equivalent episode in season 3 called "Blink" which is even better - actually, I think "Blink" is one of the best eps of Dr Who I've seen (new series or old). It's just so *CLEVER*! But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

And also really loved Alt-Pete by the end. Rather liked him in his first appearance really. The conclusion of Mickey and Jackie's story arcs just left me with such a warm glow. Rose Tyler - Defender of the Earth my arse. Mickey Smith - Defender of the Earth is more like it! And Jackie has essentially got back her biggest losses in life. Good for her!

And Martha! I must admit that I didn't really get hit by the bigtime Martha-love until the Shakespeare episode. The way she said "And then I could get sectioned!" was the deal-breaker, I think. And... and... and... well, I'll let you catch up a bit more I think.

A random thought on the codependency issue. Maybe the reason that we are out of touch with the Rose/Doctor OTP greatness is the same reason we aren't down with all the slashy (and het-shippy) goodness that dominates most fandoms. While we love friendships where they'd die for each other, we're more creeped out by those whose onlt reason for living other revolves around the other half ot their OTP, rather that than fangirling about those relationships. For the most part.

Now watch season three! I wanna hear your thoughts on that.

BTW - I've signed up to write a Dr Who fic. *head desk* I'm not all that interested in even reading Dr Who fic (a bit like you with Supernatural) and now I've agreed to write one. *head desk again*

If they didn't keep telling me how wonderful she was, I probably wouldn't mind her - but since they do keep harping on that, it does grate on my nerves a bit.

Yes, EXACTLY! Rather like Elizabeth on SGA, the way we're often told that she's a fantastic diplomat, when every single time she's ever tried to negotiate with anybody has ended in disaster. I find it much easier to like a character when canon's not constantly trying to tell me they're great, especially if they're kinda showing the opposite at the same time...

Rose Tyler - Defender of the Earth my arse. Mickey Smith - Defender of the Earth is more like it!

SO TRUE! *waves Mickey fan-flag* And Mickey does what he does without the support system that Rose has -- he's very much on his own a lot of the time. I had so much love for Mickey and Jackie's parts in the story -- the character growth and vulnerability, the reluctant heroics, the way they finally find the places where they're wanted and needed ... just, yay! for them!

While we love friendships where they'd die for each other, we're more creeped out by those whose onlt reason for living other revolves around the other half ot their OTP, rather that than fangirling about those relationships.

Yeah, this makes perfect sense to me. "I would die for you" is a very different thing from "I would die without you." The first is awesome, but the second ... not so much. I can sometimes get a bit OTP-ish about my favorite friendships (like the way that I reacted to the "best friend" comment in Sunday), but I really don't *want* to see two characters becoming each other's whole world. (There are exceptions, like Sam and Dean on SPN ... but there's really more going on with them than just that.)

Yeah, this makes perfect sense to me. "I would die for you" is a very different thing from "I would die without you." The first is awesome, but the second ... not so much. I can sometimes get a bit OTP-ish about my favorite friendships (like the way that I reacted to the "best friend" comment in Sunday), but I really don't *want* to see two characters becoming each other's whole world. (There are exceptions, like Sam and Dean on SPN ... but there's really more going on with them than just that.)

Yeah... it occurred to me as I was typing away that Dean and Sam might be an exception to the "rule" about my preferences that I was expounding on. And then being weirdly self-analytical, I've found myself pondering on why that might be the case.

And then I decided that, as devoted as they are, I actually don't think that Dean and Sam are as totally co-dependent as fandom likes to think they are. Okay, okay - just hear me out. ;-P

Yes, Dean has categorically proven that he would rather sell his own soul than live after (in his mind) allowing Sam to die. On face value, that's a very "I can't live without you" thing to do. But there a hell of a lot of context to take into consideration.

Firstly, there is of course Dean's ridiculously inflated sense of responsibility for Sam's welfare - it's very much a case of "I can't live knowing that I let you die". Dean spent a very long monologue delineating exactly how he'd always had the idea that Sam's safety was his duty. So there is an element of personal failure as well as loss of a loved one.

Secondly, I don't think the "being each other's world" was so much a case of Dean and Sam actively choosing each other over the rest of the world - it's been more of a case of their worlds being wittled away until they are all that each other has left to hold on to. Despite what many, many fans keep saying (in meta and fic), there is every indication that Dean loved his father (and depended on him) equally as much as he did Sam. To him, family is the centre of his world - and Sam is now all the family he has left. As to Sam himself - well, he's always apparently been some who looked outward towards the world - but that too changed when his father died. When he lost his father, Sam realised how important his family was to him and re-centred his world around family ties and the family business - and the only family he has left is Dean.

So yeah, there is currently no one alive on the planet that matters to Dean and Sam as much as each other. And yes, they'd do anything for each other. But I still don't see that exclusionary kind of codependency about them. Canonically, Sam and Dean have always encouraged each other's outside ties. Even though Dean once told Sam that it was easier not having friends, that does seem the exception rather than the rule - and, a bit like Sam's early comments about Dean's lack of affinity with kids, I think that "idea for a character trait" was long ago ditched by the production team. Yes, Dean is still suspicious of outsiders for the potential threat they pose - but it's the we-could-get-killed-by them type of threat, not the woe-is-me-they-might-take-my-brother-away threat - IMHO.

Or then again, I could just be fanwanking out my arse. ;-P

Ummm... in fewer words.

I think what I'm trying to say is that in canon, Dean and Sam aren't "jealous" about their relationship. I see that idea expounded in the fandom all the time - that one of them (particularly Dean) resents anyone else getting close to the other. But I really don't see that in the show. I see their protectiveness all the time. But I don't see exclusionary possessiveness in the way they act towards each other. But I also realise that others (particularly the shippy sort of fans) probably would see things differnetly.

I love it when other people are smarter than me and point out things that go "click!" in my brain.

Because that is it, exactly. That jealousy is one of the huge things about OTP-ism (in fanfic, or, as the case may be, in canon) that drives me up the wall. And you're right, it really doesn't seem to be present with Sam and Dean. Dean resented Sam walking out on the family, but he didn't blame Jessica for it. He doesn't object to Sam spending time with Ellen or Bobby. Dean's overriding goal in life is to protect Sam, out of love and older-brother responsibility, but that doesn't mean he's willing to protect Sam by sacrificing other people -- they're both still hunting, for example, which is probably THE most dangerous thing a person can do. True, he did offer Sam the option of laying low for awhile to avoid the demon -- which is kind of practical, actually -- but Sam made the decision to stay in the line of fire and Dean respected that.

There is a fundamental selfishness to jealousy and possessiveness ... it amounts to putting one's own happiness over the happiness of the love-object. I know I've complained in the past to you about how much I hate jealousy in SGA slash -- it warps the dynamic in just that way, takes a (basically) unselfish love from canon and makes it proprietary, exclusionary ... and selfish.

Of course, with Sam and Dean, it's not really possible (aside from very, very far-fetched circumstances) for either of them to be replaced in their specific role to each other. Nobody else is going to come along and be Sam's brother -- and, actually, if a long-lost third offspring of John Winchester showed up, I could see Sam, at least, being MASSIVELY jealous of the interloper, at least until he was confident that he was still going to be as important to Dean as he'd always been. But barring something that extreme, on a fundamental level they can always fall back on the confidence that their basic relationship to each other can't change, won't change, can't be altered or broken. Whereas with Rose and the Doctor, she not only knows she can be replaced, but that she inevitably will be replaced. To me, that makes her apparent belief that she's the exception to the rule somewhat less sympathetic, rather than more so. (Insanity is repeating the same set of actions and expecting a different outcome the second time!) But she's also unwilling to bring anyone else into the bond, which not only makes her precarious position as the Doctor's one-and-only, inevitably-replaced Companion a self-reinforcing thing -- but makes it obvious that she's less worried about him, being alone, than she is worried about herself being abandoned.

I love it when other people are smarter than me and point out things that go "click!" in my brain.

LOL! But you do that for me all the time too. Maybe I don't mention it enough. Sometimes you even do it via fic! Which really is kinda impressive.

Dean resented Sam walking out on the family, but he didn't blame Jessica for it.

I've got to say that Dean's reactions to the dreamworld of "What is and What Never Should Be" really do showcase the lack or jealousy and lack of condemnation of others in his character. The sheer JOY on his face as he watched Sam and Jessica announce their engagement shows how much he really does want Sam to be happy for Sam's own sake. When he finds out that he and Sam don't get along in that reality, he doesn't blame Sam but he won't accept "defeat" either. His response that he fix it by "making it up" to Sam. Oh, and the one that nearly broke me - when Sam's catches him stealing the silver and asks why, Dean tell him a lie that paints Dean as "the bad guy". From the way Dean watches his reaction, it looks like he was testing if Sam could believe that he was capable of that low an act - and when Sam instantly accepts it, you can see Dean's sorrow and regret, but he doesn't lay blame or try to "get out of it". He just apologises and prepares to get on with his "mission". Jensen Ackles' performance throughout that whole episode was just totally awesome.

Umm... where was I? Oh, yes.

There is a fundamental selfishness to jealousy and possessiveness ... it amounts to putting one's own happiness over the happiness of the love-object.

Yep, absolutely. I actually think our current society has almost elevated selfishness to be a virtue - and it's kinda worrying. I mean, when women wear a T-shirt that says "It's all about me", people laugh. But there does to seem to be an acceptance of the selfishness expressed - like people think "well, there's a chick who knows what's what". And the way that a lot of people watch a character like Dean Winchester putting other people's wants and needs before his own and see that as something "wrong" about him - that it's something to be pitied, rather than admired. I do find it a little disconcerting.

And basically, yes (maybe even hell, yes!) to everything you said about Rose.

LOL! But you do that for me all the time too. Maybe I don't mention it enough. Sometimes you even do it via fic! Which really is kinda impressive.

But you STARTED IT with your SGA posts SO THERE!

*grin*

It is fun to debate things with someone I don't see eye-to-eye with. But it's also fun to discuss things while sharing a brain ... and sometimes you and I do that to a really alarming extent!

The sheer JOY on his face as he watched Sam and Jessica announce their engagement shows how much he really does want Sam to be happy for Sam's own sake.

See, to me, this is the very ESSENCE of love -- putting someone else's happiness above one's own. Being happy because someone you love is happy, without even thinking about yourself. It's the ideal that I assume most people aspire towards ... at least if they stop and think about it.

And your post is making me adore Dean all over again, because Dean is SO much that way. He's not needy, not dependent -- he's just an incredibly unselfish person. Which, er, reminds me that I owe you a fic, and I haven't forgotten; I've actually been working on it, but I'm having trouble working it into an actual PLOT. (I keep trying to write stories about Dean that mysteriously morph into stories about Bobby. Er ... wtf? and also, oops?)

Kinda funny that I didn't like Dean all that much at first, eh? Because I didn't see that in him. I saw him, at first, as someone dedicated to ideals over substance. But now that I've gotten to "know" him, I adore him so much because he's not a guy whose virtues are obvious at first glace -- at least not to me, I suppose. *g* He's not a paragon of virtue. He's rude, snarky, doofy, a ladies' man, just generally a guy who doesn't take himself seriously and doesn't expect others to do so either. And yet he's just about the most unselfish person you could ever hope to meet -- and if you're in trouble, Dean is absolutely the guy you want on your side to get you out.

*craves Season 3*

Oh wait, we weren't talking about Supernatural ... what happened? *g*

I actually think our current society has almost elevated selfishness to be a virtue - and it's kinda worrying. I mean, when women wear a T-shirt that says "It's all about me", people laugh. But there does to seem to be an acceptance of the selfishness expressed - like people think "well, there's a chick who knows what's what".

SO MUCH YES. And, honestly, I think this is very much the mistake that I made in the early episodes of SPN -- seeing Sam's struggle for independence as asserting his independence, a positive choice, whereas the more I got to know the characters, the more my sympathies fell wholeheartedly with Dean. But as you pointed out, our society (i.e. Western European/American-influenced culture) celebrates the individual while downplaying the importance of responsibility to family and friends and community -- rewarding and glorifying Sam's choices, not Dean's. Sublimating one's own needs for the good of someone else is not generally shown as a positive choice in media. It's unusual to see it as the action of a hero, which is weird because it SHOULD be, but (at least in American media) it's a lot more common to see a hero as someone who forges out boldly and performs spectacular acts of heroism, not someone who quietly sacrifices so that someone else can be happy.

It is fun to debate things with someone I don't see eye-to-eye with. But it's also fun to discuss things while sharing a brain ... and sometimes you and I do that to a really alarming extent!

LOL! Yeah. Y'know, when we do disagree about characters or issues (like we originally did with Dean) - I feel mixture of both excitement and a sort of unease. Because we share a brain so often, it feels weird, but I also sort of enjoy being on the other side of tussle from you because you do argue well and I enjoy the challenge. But it does seem that we eventually find common ground on most issues anyway.

I keep trying to write stories about Dean that mysteriously morph into stories about Bobby. Er ... wtf? and also, oops?

Stories about Bobby are good too. Just saying. ;-P

But now that I've gotten to "know" him, I adore him so much because he's not a guy whose virtues are obvious at first glace -- at least not to me, I suppose.

Yeah, I totally adore characters whose virtues aren't obvious at first glance. Rodney McKay is another wonderful example of that he's rude, arrogant, smug, irritating, doesn't play nice with others, often voices cowardly sentiments and has the biggest hypochondriac streak this side of Munchausen's syndrome - and yet (from almost the first episodes of SGA) he's the sort of guy who would walk into an energy-sucking cloud of darkness to try and save others.

But we weren't talking about SGA either...

Sublimating one's own needs for the good of someone else is not generally shown as a positive choice in media. It's unusual to see it as the action of a hero, which is weird because it SHOULD be, but (at least in American media) it's a lot more common to see a hero as someone who forges out boldly and performs spectacular acts of heroism, not someone who quietly sacrifices so that someone else can be happy.

Hmm... I wonder... The general viewship seem to see Dean as hero when he's got a gun in his hand and is taking down those evil sons of bitches. But do they see him as a hero when he quietly sacrifices - or do they see him as victim when he does that? Coz you're right, it SHOULD really be seen as even MORE heroic than the gun-toting action hero. But does a modern audience really get that?

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