sholio | Doctor Who season 2

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Doctor Who season 2

Done with season 2...

I'm constantly impressed by the writing in this series, as an anthology-type show. "Love & Monsters" was just brilliant; I loved it to pieces. This show continues to be an odd, amazing mix of total cheese and genuine suspense and pathos -- the Satan 2-parter was a good example of that, because ... they fought Satan! And in a total "Aliens"-type, monsters-on-the-spaceship, B-movie setting. That episode should have been sheer, unbearable idiocy! And yet the crew were so vividly drawn that I really didn't want them to die, and it was so tense and claustophobic on the ship, and the security guy's sacrifice made me sad, and the captain and the other two surviving at the end made me EEEEE! I've mentioned before that this show really reminds me of 1950s/60s SF books, and that episode really had that feeling to it -- total Ray Bradbury, where the setting is completely absurd and yet the writing is compelling enough that it sucks you in.

"Love and Monsters", as I said, was wonderful -- it was wonderfully, darkly funny and then took this sudden 90-degree turn into OUCH. I really love well-done outsider POVs on my canonverses, and New Who is turning out to be fantastic at doing those.

I liked the Olympic episode with the little girl, even though the ending with the Doctor lighting the torch? Hopeless, hopeless cheese! Although ... I could totally see him doing that -- seizing an opportunity to light the torch ... especially this Doctor with his pronounced showmanship streak. And I loved that the creepy baddie in that episode turned out to be a lost child trying to find its way home; such a neat twist, and so much better and more poignant than having it be something to be fought and killed.

The finale two-parter -- yay! for seeing Mickey and Jake and alt-Pete again! I really thought that we'd seen the last of them. Lots of neat moments, some giggles (because, seriously, the Dalek vs. Cybermen confrontation was hilarious in an Alien vs. Predator sort of way), and then ... uh, the ending.

I don't really want to turn this into a rant about Rose. Honestly, I'm not feeling all that ranty, because I'm mostly warm and fuzzy towards the series. But, you know, I really did lose a lot of my remaining respect for her at the end. In two years (or however long it's been for her) of traveling with the Doctor, she really hasn't learned anything. They left Mickey stranded alone in an alternate universe infested by Cybermen, and he picked up a gun and saved the world. They left Rose stranded in an alternate universe (a peaceful universe, with her parents and Mickey, no less) and she ... takes a dead-end job at the shop, cries every night and then uproots her parents and drags them across the continent in pursuit of the Doctor? I ... I ... just ... what?

I sympathize with Rose feeling like her travels with the Doctor were the high point of her life, and everything after that being downhill. Really, I do. But real inner strength is feeling that way and then getting up and going on, living your life and making a difference. And Rose doesn't seem to have that. I can sympathize with her, but I can't really find it in myself to respect her, or -- after those final scenes -- even really to like her all that much. The goodbye scene with the Doctor and Rose didn't really do a whole lot for me, because her codependency just seemed more creepy to me than anything else. All the emotion being thrown around didn't make me feel it, in the same way as some of the other emotional scenes in the last few episodes (Jackie meeting alt-Pete, the guy in "Love & Monsters" losing Ursula) made me feel them. The ending of "Fear Her", with the mom and the little girl beating back the dad's spectre by leaning on each other, actually made me tear up. But the goodbye with the Doctor and Rose ... not really. To me, Rose came across mostly as an object of pity in those last scenes.

I don't expect my characters to be paragons of virtue. I love to watch flawed people pick themselves up and fall and try again. But where Rose is at the end of her two seasons -- that's where I want my protagonists to be at the beginning. Depending on another person for all your self-esteem needs and being pretty useless without them ... that's a great starting point, but not really much of an ending point. At least, that's my take on the whole thing. She's had her moments, and yes, there have been times when she's done things that are really impressive and self-sacrificing. But at the end, she's still pursuing the Doctor and using the people around her as objects of convenience; she's still fixated on him to the exclusion of living her life. And, I'm sorry, but that's just not healthy, and something that I feel needs to be fixed in her.

Er, I guess it did turn into a rant on Rose. Um. Sorry. Really, it's the only thing in the series that bugs me, but it's just such a big, ever-present thing, so I guess I fixate on it.

But now we get Season 3! And then we are done! Eeek!

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At the very end, Rose isn't asking the Doctor, "what am I going to do" - because she already knows that, she's got a good life. She's asking "what are you going to do?" - what hurts her the most is knowing he's alone.

See, I *want* to see it that way, and there were times during the goodbye scene when I *did* see it that way -- that she's hurting for him more than for herself. But everything leading up to that ... in her voiceover narration, she repeats over and over that her life's over, that the Doctor left and now she's "dead" -- which sounds way more like she's hurting for herself than him. Actually it sounds like a teenage moping fit more than anything. I just came away with a general impression that she's sort of curled up and gone into a depression fit and stopped living once she lost him, which I just ... can't get behind. At all.

However, you're right that I did misinterpret that line of dialogue -- like I said in my answer to

naye, I missed the part where it's a joke. And that does make her look a little more positive, a little less weepy and more ilke she's doing something useful with her life. (But still willing to throw it away to go off in the Tardis -- not that I can blame her.)

I actually think I might've been happier with Rose without the epilogue -- if the episode had just cut off where she's crying, and the Doctor puts his cheek against the wall and walks away. That really touched me; it was sweet and sad and I liked it. The final scene was just ... too much, maybe. Too much weeping and too much evidence that she's still willing to drop the life she's made on a moment's notice and use the people around her as she needs to, in order to chase after the Doctor. Rather than feeling like Rose is building a new life for herself, I left the second season with the feeling that she's going to spend the rest of her life waiting for him to come back, with a backpack packed up under the stairs just in case she has to leave at a moment's notice. There is certainly *some* altruism in the way she feels -- I can see that, definitely. But I think mostly it's for her, not him, that she wants to go with him.

Besides, she *knows*, from meeting Sarah Jane, that he has had a string of companions in the past and will probably continue to do so in the future. "He'll be lonely forever without me!" is just adolescent hystrionics again, isn't it? He'll move on and find someone else. He always has in the past; she's seen obvious evidence of that. And yet, that speech to her mother -- "He does it alone" ... which is, yes, moving, but it's also a little irritating (to me) that she dismisses the other Companions that way, as if she's the only one who can offer him companionship and he'll be truly and completely alone without her despite all evidence to the contrary.

LOL. Yes, not a big Rose fan. I know you like her, and I like her in some ways, but she's never going to be one of my favorites, I fear.

Well, you're definitely not alone in your Rose-dislike, I've seen rants by folks who hate her passionately and eternally (for not being as cool as other companions, for daring to love the Doctor, for almost getting the Doctor to admit to loving her, for other reasons I wouldn't know because I tend to back away slowly when the fandom gets too hysterical, which is, err...let's just say I spend more time backing away than going towards...)

I think most of it is interpretation...Rose saying she "died", as I said, I see that (other than the need to build dramatic tension, which is the major point) as Rose acknowledging the end of her life with the Doctor - but not denying that she has a new life. I don't think she's waiting for him to come back, I think when she goes to the bay she goes for a goodbye, with the slight hope she might get to go through, but not really expecting it. It's not like she's waiting with a bag on the beach; she's just standing there to talk to him. And I can't see her as using her family, not when they've come with her willingly; she could've driven there herself, but they wanted to come, to give her support. I don't see relying on your family's love as weak or selfish, not when they knew the Doctor, too, not when they are also feeling for him as well as for Rose.

The thing is, the Doctor is alone, even with all his companions; he'll always lose them, and it haunts him. She knows he can find new companions...but it would be a terribly selfish thing, I think, for Rose to go, "Oh, he'll find someone else, he'll be fine, I can go off with my mum & all and just abandon him." In "School Reunion" she saw how goodbyes hurt him - the Doctor hates farewells, he always prefers "see you later" and wouldn't even tell Sarah Jane a real goodbye until she forced it.

...dangit, now I'm getting the urge again to write that fic, with Rose in the future and what might become of her...

But anyway! Sorry you dislike Rose enough for it to spoil your enjoyment of the show, I do hope you like Martha better!

The thing is, the Doctor is alone, even with all his companions; he'll always lose them, and it haunts him. She knows he can find new companions...but it would be a terribly selfish thing, I think, for Rose to go, "Oh, he'll find someone else, he'll be fine, I can go off with my mum & all and just abandon him."

You mean like she does to everyone else who loves her anytime the Doctor needs her? *g*

See, I'm really not convinced that she's more worried about the Doctor's loneliness than her own. It's evident from "School Reunion" that she feels very threatened by the idea of anyone else being as close to the Doctor as she is. That's not the behavior of someone who's worried about their lonely friend and wants them to be less lonely; it's the behavior of someone who fears being abandoned and lonely herself -- the behavior of a jealous lover or a child afraid of losing a parent's affection. Which is, yes, understandable, sympathetic even ... but certainly not altruistic.

I'm not saying that I want Rose to be perfectly altruistic all the time. I'm not interested in paragons of virtue; I like my characters with shades of gray. What bothers me about her is that the other characters' behavior towards her seems to indicate that they think she's brave and giving and loving and wonderful -- but the way I see her, she acts more like a kid: a fairly brave kid, but still with the selfishness and lack of emotional maturity of someone who's still in the process of growing up. And she seems to lean very heavily for other people for her sense of self-worth, especially given that the other characters act like they think she's a pillar of strength.

It seems like most of what Rose does in the series is react rather than act. There are a few times when we see her take action, be the instrument of her own fate rather than orbiting the Doctor -- when she's mobilizing the crewpeople on the drilling station in the Satan episode, for example. I like that Rose. I want more of that Rose! Not the Rose who chases a fantasy across Europe so that she can cry on a beach ...

Sorry you dislike Rose enough for it to spoil your enjoyment of the show

Oh, but neither one of those is true -- I don't dislike her, and it doesn't spoil my enjoyment! I like the show just fine, and I hope that I don't sound like a crazy ranting character-basher here. My character-bashing rants are well-reasoned, dammit! *g*

No ... I doubt if we're ever going to see eye to eye on this character; on the other hand, I didn't really like Dean when I started watching SPN, and look how that turned out! My views on characters do change, although in this case I think I've liked her less the more of her I've seen. I'm not sure how much it helps, really, to go on arguing the anti-Rose viewpoint either, because I know that you like her and it's not as if either one of us is that likely to convince the other one. And, as you said, a lot of it comes down to differing interpretations of the same scenes in canon.

As I said to

naye, I think that my feelings towards Rose are more like impatience than actual dislike; she seems to me like a promising individual who still has a lot of growing up to do, but isn't really moving towards that. I don't wish the character ill, and I don't begrudge those who like her, but I would have liked to see her character development go in a different direction than it actually did in canon -- as I see canon, anyhow. It really is very much a matter of interpretation.

Ahhhh - I'm really not trying to brainwash you, I swear ^^; It're more of that the Rose-Doctor relationship is a big enough part of the show that I'm...sad you can't enjoy it? Which is crazy, really, since you are liking the show anyway, like you say! Um, I will choose to blame the madness on the cicadas buzzing outside the window (seriously, if you could hear how loud those buggers are it'd be an acceptable excuse!)

Though it's interesting because arguing the char has been solidifying why I like her; I did all along, but I wasn't as clear why. And some of the things that turn you off so much are some of the things I enjoy and appreciate about her char. Her emotionality especially - the Doctor depends so much on repression and forgetting to survive that it was good for him to be close to someone who was so expressive, who could cry even when he would not.

--In the end that might be what it comes down to; I like Rose, but as I said I like Martha more - but I like the Doctor more than any companion, and I appreciate Rose most in relationship to the Doctor, in what she meant for the Doctor. I cared enough about Rose to want to know what happened to her (and projected an evolution onto her that we may or may not have seen); but it was the Doctor's evolution, the aftermath of the Time War, that most interested me, and Rose helped him with that, so...I liked her best for that!

Ahhhh, cicadas! ^_^ That explains much ...

No ... I do understand, being squeeful about a character and wanting to share it ... I'm sorry for my, er, Rose anti-squee! Though her character is not really to my taste, I definitely see what you mean about Rose's importance to the Doctor -- we're watching "Runaway Bride" right now, and his cheerful mask over heartbreak is just *breaking* me.

I think for me, it's easier to like Rose in context -- seeing the Doctor interacting with Donna makes it obvious how much Rose's youth and emotional openness brought out his playful side, his ability to revel in the wonder around him. Without her, he's certainly still *him*, but a little darker.

I am so not kidding about the cicadas. We're on the 4th floor but the apartment across the way has a roof garden, and the little blighters are loud enough to wake me at 6 AM, fearing my AC unit's about to explode, until I realize it's INSECTS making that racket. It's actually pretty impressive.

I gotta admit, the Rose conundrum intrigues me in part because we do have similar tastes in many things, so I find it interesting that we could have such opposite interpretations of the same char/episodes! What'd you think of Donna, out of curiosity? (Do you have the spoilers on that yet?)

I know you're not kidding about the cicadas. I remember what those damn things were like when I lived in Illinois. Definitely something I don't miss about moving back here ...

I think I know the Donna spoiler, but don't tell me, just in case I'm wrong. ^_^ And I like her quite a lot, actually. She's very fun in an abrasive-yet-sweet kind of way! And I like Martha, so far (as of one episode with her). On the other hand, I genuinely liked Rose at first and then it kinda went downhill as the show went on. So far, though, I quite like the new cast members, so ... we'll see! My husband is out of town currently, so it'll be a few days before I can watch any more; my family is going to be visiting for a day or two, but I intend to see about fitting in a couple of the Confidentials if I can!

We get a few cicadas in New England, but not this racket! It's a new thing to me...and if you try to complain about it to anyone Japanese, they just stare at you. "But it's the sound of summer!" People actually buy and import cicadas to city gardens. Madness! (at least they don't freak me like cockroaches do. I find cicadas themselves cute, as far as insects go, they're so big and clumsy and slow, like little flying turtles...)

Flying turtles! Hee! I hated the cicadas in Illinois -- not for themselves so much (as insects go, they don't bother me) but for the noise they made. The trees were full of them -- every oak and maple making a goddawful racket, day and night. When I think of Illinois, one of the main things that sticks in my mind is driving down the street with the Doppler effect of all the cicadas in the trees...

Cockroaches are the only kind of insect that really give me the heebie-jeebie feeling. Another of my not-so-pleasant Illinois memories is picking up a double handful of spilled dog kibbles on the porch, and discovering too late that it was absolutely crawling with cockroaches -- positively writhing with them. And I reacted like a total girl -- screamed, threw my hands out, sending kibble and cockroaches flying everywhere... very embarrassing...

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Doctor Who season 2

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