sholio | Marvel announced Phase 4 at SDCC

Crossposts: https://sholio.livejournal.com/884757.html

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Marvel announced Phase 4 at SDCC

Here's the list!

My unpopular(?) Marvel opinion is that I'm kinda hitting superhero burnout. I'm not that enthused about anything upcoming, and I think it's mainly because I just kind of want it to stop for awhile. They built up for ten years to their ~big finale~ and then put out the next movie in the franchise two months later! Let it breathe, guys.

That being said, the handful of things I'm looking forward to ...

Shang-Chi (Feb. 2021) - I think this might be the thing I'm looking forward to most! From what vanishingly little I know about it so far, it looks super fun, and also refreshingly disconnected from most of the rest of the franchise and unlikely to be huge and bombastic, which I gotta tell you is mostly what I want at this point. Except then there's also ...

Doctor Strange 2 (May 2021) - I didn't actually realize I was looking forward to this but apparently I am?! It may be terrible, but it will probably be entertaining and pretty. MULTIVERSE!

Thor 4: Love and Thunder (Nov 2021) - Lady Thor! Moar Valkyrie! Taika Waititi is back to direct! I am THERE.

Unfortunately that's about it, as far as personal excitement is concerned. I may check out the Falcon & Winter Soldier and Scarlet Witch shows, I'm sort of tentatively curious about the Loki one but still too annoyed that it's pre-character-development 2012 Loki to really have feelings about it, and apparently there's also something called "What If?" that will involve a number of established characters and I really hope is what it sounds like, an Elseworlds kind of thing.

No dates yet for Black Panther 2 (which I'm looking forward to, and I think it's weird they're pushing it back for a bunch of new stuff given how well the first movie did) or GotG 3 (which I wish I was more excited about, but the Gamora thing killed most of my interest). And I still miss my Netflix shows.

What are you looking forward to? My normal spoilerphobe policy is on hold for this; feel free to talk about anything that's been revealed about the upcoming, unreleased shows/movies so far, since there isn't much yet.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Honestly I'm reaching superhero burn out too and never thought I'd say that. I'm mostly looking forward to Doctor Strange, mostly because I identify with him a little too much.

Yeah, I didn't think I had a superhero limit but I'm kinda getting there. Or I guess the problem is, I can't keep getting invested in new superheroes and new casts. I wish they'd work more with the ones they have instead of constantly throwing new ones in!

But yeah, I'm looking forward to the new Strange movie a lot more than I thought I was going to.

Yeah that might be it, at least some of these are the same heroes but you keep throwing out so many of them the plots will probably suffer and there are so many dollars in my purse.

I'm looking forward to the next Thor movie and the Eternals. Black Widow that includes Rachel Weiss has my interest. :)

The Black Widow movie also has David Harbour from Stranger Things! I think I'd be more enthused about it except I'm not really feeling the Cold War spy thing right now. Hopefully I'll be more interested when it comes out.

And yeah, I think for me right now Eternals is suffering from the "don't know if I want to learn a whole new cast of characters" problem, but I'm cautiously optimistic; I do like ensemble casts. :D

I'm excited for Eternals because I know nothing about it and it sounds like people with super powers with sci-fi elements.

What If

So the Marvel version of Elseworlds, basically.

IIRC Elseworlds is the DC version of What If, but basically, yes.

The Elseworld imprint is younger than the Marvel What Ifs, but DC had "Imaginary Stories" set explicitly outside of their continuity since the 40s. Like, they had one with Superman being raised by apes like Tarzan, Bruce Wayne adopted by the Kents and raised as Superman's brother, so typical "what if scenarios.

I find it absolutely impossible to care about post-Av4 stuff in the same way as I cared about it so far. I mean, with the original Avengers team gone it's kind of poof! as far as my interest. I do hope Thor 4 is fun! But I don't feel truly fannish about it. It's one of those things I"ll see eventually.

Of all things, I'm perhaps most excited to see what they do with Sam-Bucky and with the Black Widow (which was confirmed post-CW, I hope it doesn't trample on my CW feels!), but this too is interest of that casual-fannish variety.

I was into this universe before I was into it and I'm okay just watching these shows as they come.

Except FFH. Donowant!

Yeah, I think what they really should have done was given Endgame space to feel like an ending, before launching into a bunch of new stuff. I think between that and the cancellations of the Netflix shows, I just can't really muster up a lot of enthusiasm for a bunch of new movies right now. Like, sure, if you want to have your big apocalyptic finish, go for it, but don't put up another movie 0.2 seconds later and expect everyone to be just as enthusiastic about it.

You know, I wonder how much of it is just me also feeling a bit of betrayal like 'they just took away my toys and they want me to believe I should care about these new toys' XD Like I can't believe those won't get taken away as well, like the netflix shows that asked us to care and then cruelly cut off. (At least Endgame GOT an ending!)

(I mean, besides the actual feelings of grief etc, which are a separate can of worms)

Yeah, there's definitely some of that for me too. And also a sort of profound character fatigue, where they keep introducing new ones rather than doing anything with the ones they have. I think that's my biggest problem with Eternals, and to a lesser extent with ones like Shang-Chi and some of the other upcoming ones. Including all the show-only and single-movie-only characters, they have how many characters by now?! It must be hundreds! Most of whom have hardly had anything to do. Give me a Peggy movie, or a Defenders movie (yes, I know there are rights issues with those, but it's only a 2-year moratorium and they're already well beyond that with scheduling), or a Gamora and Nebula movie, or a Monica Rambeau movie; give me a movie or TV show spinning off any of their dozens of minor characters who are superheroes in their own right in the comics and could easily carry a movie of their own! I guess to some extent, that's what they're doing with the D+ shows, but it also feels like they're just pelting us with more and more characters and not nurturing the ones they have.

So I think it's a blend of that and the frustration of watching characters I'm really invested in get wiped off the map, never to be heard from again, and not really wanting to get invested in anything new when it's just going to end up like that.

This. A Defenders movie and a Peggy movie would actually make me excited again.

Amen to both the "that's too many superheroes, put some superheroes back" feeling, and feeling like the characters I really got invested in just got nuked or outright killed off and that makes me wary and resentful. Which I guess is part of fandom in peak capitalism....

Yes, and I think when you see how Engame went -- it wasn't designed to make anyone happy. I mean, it's fine, you don't need to always make superhero movies where the superheroes win (and I don't mean die winning). But at the same time, now I'm looking at the future MCU movies going...okay, are YOU going to go that way too? Whereas I could watch Avengers 1 in 2012 and be basically assured that I'll leave it having had a good time, there's no such guarantee anymore and IDK. I like my superheroes superheroing, not burned to a crisp, or splattered on the ground, is all I'm saying. >__>

YES, THIS. I hadn't really realized, I think, how much of my current feelings of Marvel ennui are because of Endgame, because it's not specifically a feeling of being sad, but - yes! That! The feels you get from a big apocalyptic finale movie are NOT "let's rush out and watch a bunch more movies in the franchise" type of feels. It's "well, okay, that's over now, I need to let my emotions settle and grieve and move on" feels.

It kinda makes me think about the way I felt after watching the Firefly movie back in *mumble mumble*. I had been really crushed about the cancellation and was really delighted to get more, and then I turned to my husband as we walked out of the theater and said, "Okay, I enjoyed that a lot, but I'm done with Firefly now." And this is a really similar feeling for me. Endgame gave me a whole lot of feels, none of which were "I want to keep watching more movies with these characters" kind of feels. It was more like "Okay, that was apocalyptic and now I need to deal with it." I don't want anything new right now. I'm going to need YEARS to process that and deal with it.

But at the same time, now I'm looking at the future MCU movies going...okay, are YOU going to go that way too? Whereas I could watch Avengers 1 in 2012 and be basically assured that I'll leave it having had a good time, there's no such guarantee anymore and IDK.

YES. THIS TOO. Especially since EG took a lot of things I'd really loved and made them retroactively sad! (Basically ... all of them, actually. Except maybe BP - at least they're all ALIVE.) I don't want to invest the same way in anything new in the MCU, knowing it's likely to end in a big depressing crossover ~event~.

OMG yes, the distrust is real. We really need to put a moratorium on letting edgy white bois who mistakenly think killing characters off is the ultimate in ~*~depth~*~ and ~*~drama~*~ anywhere near serialized stories for at least the next 100 years.

Endgame gave me a whole lot of feels, none of which were "I want to keep watching more movies with these characters" kind of feels. It was more like "Okay, that was apocalyptic and now I need to deal with it." I don't want anything new right now. I'm going to need YEARS to process that and deal with it.

....EG took a lot of things I'd really loved and made them retroactively sad! (Basically ... all of them, actually. Except maybe BP - at least they're all ALIVE.) I don't want to invest the same way in anything new in the MCU, knowing it's likely to end in a big depressing crossover ~event~.

Yeah, that's absolutely it, the combination of those two things -- EG felt absolutely final and they went out of their way to make it like that, emotionally, for dramatic power or whatever. But I also felt like five out of the six OG just got fucked over by their EG storylines, and even Tony's ending was really sad. Is there going to be more room for fun and even victories, or is every ending going to be tragic?

(I also think they really underestimate how ticked off people are that the Netflix shows got cut off so brutally. Asking people to sign up for yet another streaming service is a big deal in itself right now, and I am just not that interested in supporting Feige's grand plan of weaving the shows into movies and vice versa for the $$$ when shows I loved got axed.)

I also think they really underestimate how ticked off people are that the Netflix shows got cut off so brutally.

YEAH. And I mean, I think that the actual cancellations were mostly Netflix and the shows could probably have kept going for years longer if Netflix was willing to commit. But Marvel is really twisting the knife by showing no particular signs of wanting to resurrect those shows (they're going to have the rights back in 2021 at the latest! They could already be hinting at a Defenders movie or a streaming deal if they wanted to do it!). They just don't seem to get, or care, how invested people are in individual characters in the franchise. And okay, sure, in the short term, they have no particular reason to care unless it's the parts of the franchise that are making them money. But for the long game, you don't get people to invest in new characters if you don't treat the old ones well, because no one's going to trust you! They took characters like Iron Man and Loki and Bucky, that nobody outside a small circle of comics fans really knew about or cared about, and built them up into household names. But how long is that going to keep working if they start squandering the fan goodwill that got them there?

I think that the actual cancellations were mostly Netflix and the shows could probably have kept going for years longer if Netflix was willing to commit.

Yeah, and what's really sad is at least the Luke Cage and Daredevil teams were already breaking out their next seasons in the writing rooms. And Netflix disagreed with the LC showrunner about how he was, well, running his show to the point they pulled the plug. I don't think any of the big companies come off well at all.

But Marvel is really twisting the knife by showing no particular signs of wanting to resurrect those shows (they're going to have the rights back in 2021 at the latest! They could already be hinting at a Defenders movie or a streaming deal if they wanted to do it!).

SERIOUSLY

People were already YELLING for a DotD teamup, and Charlie Cox has said he'd go on playing Matt for another show, the movies, whatever. And God knows a lot of these actors were indelible as the characters. (Hell, they just hired Mahershala Ali as Blade -- apparently he called up Feige and said "I want to be Blade," and Feige, having not been raised by fools, said SURE.) It feels like a whole lot of this fandom also gets exposed to how the sausage gets made, so to speak, and that also puts a damper on it for me. I mean I don't have any illusions about Disney being cute and fluffy, but it's a fucking bummer to have it laid out just how mercenary and subjective a lot of these decision are. (And also based on DELUSIONS, see: Perlmutter.)

They just don't seem to get, or care, how invested people are in individual characters in the franchise. And okay, sure, in the short term, they have no particular reason to care unless it's the parts of the franchise that are making them money. But for the long game, you don't get people to invest in new characters if you don't treat the old ones well

YEAH, seriously. I mean, Black Panther was awesome and a fucking cultural event and it was really joyous -- and then Wakanda got trashed in the very next movie and they snapped T'Challa, who returned for like all of five minutes in EG, and now the sequel isn't even anywhere near on the schedule? I really want to see more of that Black Panther world the director and actors and crew created, but you know, is the same thing going to happen to this world that happened to Steve and Tony and Natasha?

feeling a bit of betrayal like 'they just took away my toys and they want me to believe I should care about these new toys' XD Like I can't believe those won't get taken away as well

THAT'S REALLY IT, YES

I've been angry about gratuitiously killing characters off since the end of Infinity War, and while Endgame was an intense and somewhat cathartic experience, it also didn't stand up to any kind of critical thinking *and* even while watching had several things that annoyed me greatly.

So I don't think I will ever be as invested as I was in the "Avengers Assemble through to CA:TWS" period (never forgiving AoU for throwing away all the character development in the previous three films), but I enjoyed Black Panther and Captain Marvel very much, and I am looking forward to (finally!) a Black Widow movie, and also Jane Foster as Lady Thor.

That said, I went to see Spider-Man: Far From Home yesterday for date night, and finally watched Homecoming the night before, and enjoyed them both.

I LOVED the Jane!Thor story in 616. Oh that reminds me, I wanted to check reddit to see how many manbabies might be flipping out, heh.

I just....really really wish IW/EG wasn't the Big Finish of all those films I loved. And I'm usually really good at ignoring canon and cherrypicking what I like, LOL. But not this time.

I'm really sorry your shows got cancelled :( :(

Awwww, thank you!! *hugs* ♥

It's just what happens with TV shows, I guess. But I appreciate the sympathy. <3

I find it absolutely impossible to care about post-Av4 stuff in the same way as I cared about it so far. I mean, with the original Avengers team gone it's kind of poof! as far as my interest

I feel like the Avengers team was so screwed over in IW/EG I'm just kind of not interested in the whole 'verse anymore, because I felt gutpunched. Which is probably unfair because there's a whole lot of new directors and the Russos/MMMF are nowhere to be seen, but....idk. A lot of this stuff has great potential, but I'm really wary of how they might execute it.

No dates on Captain Marvel 2, either. Jane Foster as Thor sounds really fun though. I'm impressed that they got Portman back.

Not gonna lie, I thought Portman was done with the MCU! I guess if Marvel is like "here's a wheelbarrow full of money and also we want you to play Thor", nobody in their right mind is going to say no.

I think she wanted to play the lead and have a better director.

She's gonna be Thor? OOoooh I would go for that! I had assumed 'Love' was for amora or something. :)

(I don't actually want spoilers. Just...nice!)

FWIW, I think it's mostly speculation at this point, not 100% confirmed! But it looks likely. :D

I thought it was confirmed? My entire twitter feed certainly seems to think so.

Maybe I'm wrong? What I'd gotten from the SDCC news that it's confirmed that Portman's in the movie and that the movie will somehow involve a female Thor, and she showed up on stage carrying the hammer. So it's heavily implied, but not actually stated. I could be wrong though; I'm mainly just going off Tumblr reports from the various panels!

I'm seeing articles including from EW going past on Twitter talking about it as if it's confirmed -- could be that everyone's jumping the gun, of course!

It's equally possible that I just missed the actual confirmation. XD

It's definitely an issue with tumblr (and very much also twitter for that matter) -- sometimes you just get people's reaction buzz and miss the actual source! XD

I feel like that happened with Black Widow -- there's like three on-set blurry photos of a guy in a cape and helmet with a sword and shield and everyone's like, "TASKMASTER CONFIRMED!!" and I'm all, whut? But....why? I think it's the Red Guardian, altho Armored Guy doesn't look a whole lot like him either. But he looks more like Alexei to me than Taskmaster. I mean I heard something like "Feige is so excited to bring in Taskmaster!" floating around a couple of years ago, which could be where it's from?

OTOH I am kind of LOLing forever that the person whose friend of a friend heard SebStan say the BW prequel was set after Civil War was apparently right!

IIRC Taika said they're adapting the Jason Aaron storyline in Mighty Thor where Jane becomes Thor after he's unworthy (it was a great run). So if she's Jane again and shows up onstage lifting Mjolnir....(She didn't show up carrying it: Taika knelt and handed Mjolnir to her! Very very cute https://www.cnet.com/news/thor-4-to-star-natalie-portman-as-lady-thor-is-titled-thor-love-and-thunder-comic-con-2019/)

I'm surprised they pushed both the Black Panther and Captain Marvel sequels back so far, but then someone told me there's a certain amount of time between solo movies? IDK.

It was kind of funny to see Feige going on about "new beginnings" and in reality there's Falcon/Winter Soldier, WandaVision, Loki, Dr Strange, Hawkeye, Thor....they're really pushing the "moving on" theme hard I guess.

This is more than usual, though! At least I think so? I mean, it was only what, 3 years between most of the IM, Cap, and Thor movies. And GotG. And Spider-Man too, I think? I can see it for CM since it just came out this year, but they could easily have gone with BP in 2020 or 2021 if they wanted to. I think this is another situation where "too many characters" (or in this case, too many franchises - sub-franchises?) is starting to be an issue. In fact, to the extent that it might start to be an anchor dragging back the ability of the individual (sub)franchises to build up momentum. It's getting to where they're going to have 5 or 6 or 7 years before sequels come out and that's kind of a lot.

In fact, to the extent that it might start to be an anchor dragging back the ability of the individual (sub)franchises to build up momentum

Oh yeah, definitely -- I really wasn't expecting anything re Captain Marvel since that just came out, but it was weird not to have anything about BP 2, since I think 2021 put it in that three-year range for sequels.

(also sorry to have overcommented and to be such a fucking Debbie Downer, I think I was having medz issues)

Don't worry about it; I'll let you know if I'd like to have it dialed back a bit and/or just say up front if I'm wanting to have an upbeat discussion. It helps that I pretty much agree with you. XD

But yeah, I was thinking about this some more and I think something that's becoming clear in the post-EG era is that Marvel doesn't really have a plan anymore. As much as it went off the rails at times, and as much as I think it would have been a good move to have opened the franchise wider to a less all-white-dudes-all-the-time team, the early MCU was really focused! They had a handful of main tentpole franchises, bringing out a new movie every 3 years or so in those, interspersed with the big team movies, all building up to a big apocalyptic finish against a threat had been seeded into the previous movies as far back as Cap 1.

Defenders had an overall plan too, even though it got interrupted halfway through *WEEPS* but the interweaving of all the different shows really worked because of that.

... now, though? What the heck are they even doing? Most of the new movies involve second-string comics characters or further installments in established franchises, more or less at random. There are no big crossover movies on the horizon, and no indication of who they want their new "tentpole" characters to be. (I mean, I had THOUGHT that Spider-Man and CM were going to be that, but there are no new Spider-Man or CM movies scheduled for the near future.) And there doesn't seem to be anything tying together the different parts of the franchise, the way there was with Avengers and the Infinity Stones in the first decade. There are new movies with characters I had no idea they were going to be focusing on (e.g. Strange) and none of them really seem to connect together in any particular way.

Some of it wasn't what I wanted, but I will give Marvel major props for pulling off a 10-year integrated superhero universe and making the whole thing feel tied together and (mostly, anyway) planned. Now, though, it's starting to just feel like cash grabs and "okay, hey, we have this other character over here, let's make a movie about them!" Like someone said downthread, it's frustrating that now is when they've started pulling out the diverse casting, the female characters and superheroes of color ... now that they've burned up a bunch of viewer goodwill on earlier movies and people are starting to get tired of superheroes and they don't even seem to have a plan anymore.

Edited 2019-07-21 19:47 (UTC)

Oh good, I hate harshing squee, or even just being a downer. A bunch of people I know are feeling meh or even down about this news, tho! It's disorienting.

There are no big crossover movies on the horizon, and no indication of who they want their new "tentpole" characters to be. (I mean, I had THOUGHT that Spider-Man and CM were going to be that, but there are no new Spider-Man or CM movies scheduled for the near future.)

Yeah, plus the way Carol was really built up in her solo movie, and then appeared for five minutes at the start of EG and five minutes at the end, mostly so she could rescue Tony and get stomped by Thanos, was very strange. Meanwhile, we had....Ant-Man! Because we had to have the outsider white male POV, idek. (No really, they were like "Scott's been out of it for five years, what a great way to introduce what's happened!" Argle.) I thought she would be key to defeating Thanos and then help start building SWORD in order to defend earth and....no? Wha.

Like someone said downthread, it's frustrating that now is when they've started pulling out the diverse casting, the female characters and superheroes of color ... now that they've burned up a bunch of viewer goodwill on earlier movies and people are starting to get tired of superheroes and they don't even seem to have a plan anymore.

SERIOUSLY, THAT. I'm like "Jane!Thor!" and "Maybe Wanda won't get screwed over!" and "Look at that Eternals cast!" and then I feel immediately wary because I don't want to get burned again. Maybe the F4 will be brought in via the multiverse and they'll be the new anchors in the post-Infinity Saga plot? ??

I do wonder if they might bring back the Defenders or some of them via Hulu after that waiting period is up. Charlie Cox and Jon Bernthal are both really eager to return from what I know, but Krysten Ritter and Mike Colter seem Done (who can blame them). Maybe we could get a Daughters of the Dragon teamup. Maybe.

I've always felt a bit sad I haven't been more into the MCU. But I started with Winter Soldier, which was rather peak My Interests, and then everything else... was not as fun for me personally. (Except Black Panther.) Maybe Falcon & Winter Soldier will be fun?

ETA: I have actually only seen about half the MCU movies in a rather scattershot way, so I don't have the most overwhelming basis on which to comment on them generally I guess...

Looking forward very much to more of The Expanse, though! (And surprisingly not terribly fussed about ST:Picard, but then I never actually watched TNG so maybe I should.)

Edited 2019-07-21 04:47 (UTC)

Well, you're into what you're into; nothing wrong with that! And at this point it's kind of the multi-tentacled monster that's taken over fandom, so... ESCAPE WHILE THERE'S STILL HOPE FOR YOU!!

I need to watch Expanse. At this point there is this ever growing pile of hard-ish and space-opera-ish SF that Orion has seen and liked and keeps gently shoving in my direction (Expanse, the Cluster books, the Three-Body-Problem books) that I just keep ... not. XD I will get to it eventually, I swear.

I have made so many attempts to get into the MCU! And I do really like Steve a whole lot. I think I'm just less into superheroes than I expect to be.

I haaated 3BP for what it's worth, too much random background misogyny. Expanse is great though -- I found the first season a bit boring (I was not attached to the protags) but second etc were worth the effort.

I wasn't that into Expanse S1 (T liked it) but I LOVED S2 and was happy with most of S3. (It's been a while.)

Eh, Three Body Problem was interesting from a 'how does China do SF' perspective, but I wouldn't really recommend it if you have a lot of other books to read.

The MCU is HYDRA. Apparently they infiltrate everything.

I'm looking forward to the Same & Bucky series.

Yeah, I think it looks like fun! I wish it was happening a few years ago when I was more excited about both characters, but who knows, it might get me back into them. :D

I was a little bummed that altho they said Emily van Camp was negotiating with them, she wasn't mentioned in the announcement or in the little promo they did. I love Sharon and was really hoping the TV series might do her more justice....sigh.

I reached Super Hero Burnout years ago and am mad at them for doing that because I wish I could get more excited about things.
I WANT to be more excited about some characters but it‘s all meh and that is sad.

Yes. I am not rushing out to theaters anymore. Although Shang Chi may be the exception because I have loved Tony Leung for many years and Simu Liu is adorable on Kim's Convenience. Otherwise, it's gonna take Carol to get me into a theater . . .

I just feel really removed from it at this point, in a way I didn't even with the Endgame stuff. I could see watching a lot of this on TV in a kind of "yeah let's see what's on Netflix" way, but it feels like they stomped on my little fannish fingers as I was clinging desperately to the Cliffside of Still Giving a Fannish Damn. Which is LOL dumb, because it's a giant megacorporation. Ever since I was a little kid I've been told I Just Take Things Too Hard and I don't enjoy Disney Owns The World Inc. basically hammering the message home.

(But then Cap Marvel and Black Panther were so great though. idk.)

I think I am moving rapidly to the space my partner already inhabits which is "sure, I'll watch that when it comes on tv -- maybe even On Demand -- but no other emotional investment."

Maybe fandom is not my happy place anymore?

Yeah, T is perfectly happy to watch the movies/shows with me, and he even gets wrapped up in some too (Jessica Jones!), but he pours his energy into photography and online courses about quantum computation (don't ask me) and the Mueller report and stuff. If he's 'fannish' about anybody it's Rachel Maddow, LOL.

IDK, I kind of feel tired of having my heart broken and also feeling like I'm a sucker for letting myself get overinvested. (sorry to be such a downer

sholio! I will stop now.)

Yeah, removed is exactly how I feel right now, too. I'm still invested in the Netflix shows and Agent Carter (... even as they retreat ever more rapidly into the past) but I think the main MCU is back to the "yeah, maybe I'll catch this when it's streaming" level for me now. The only movies I think I even might see in the theater are Shang-Chi (because I'd like to support the franchise finally getting around to an Asian actor as a movie headliner) and the new Thor because I enjoyed Waititi's first movies in the franchise so much. But in general, yeah, I think it's time for me to hang out in the cancelled side franchises/other fandoms and not worry so much about new canon because it's likely to Do Me Wrong.

I think the nature of being a fan is overinvesting! It's just unfortunate that so much of fandom is tied up in the MCU right now.

I think the main MCU is back to the "yeah, maybe I'll catch this when it's streaming" level for me now. The only movies I think I even might see in the theater are Shang-Chi (because I'd like to support the franchise finally getting around to an Asian actor as a movie headliner) and the new Thor

Yeah, ditto. Hell, I'll probably see BW in the theatre. But I just don't have that feeling of really eagerly keeping up with even small bits of news, and the MCU was what got me back into fandom after a long hiatus, so right now I guess I just feel a bit lost. I did love the Jane!Thor news, but that's a ways off.

I think the nature of being a fan is overinvesting!

TRUE

WAIT TONY LEUNG IS IN THIS!?

Well, that's one ticket sold.

I feel like I would have been really excited about a lot of these before Civil War, Infinity War, Endgame War, blah blah. I am excited there are more diverse writers and directors, and a lot more diversity in the casts. I really love What If? stuff. I love Wanda but am reeeeeally wary of how they might treat her after the terrible shit they did in comics (but Carol also has an awful comics backstory, which they rightly just ignored). I am REALLY into Sam Cap. The Jane Thor story is the only Thor run I bought in trade (okay, except for the Battleworld Thor frog one). But it's just hard for me to join in the squee about the Nat movie without thinking, YOU KILLED MY GIRL. Which is childish and grudgey, but I'm still mad about that, and that they didn't give her a solo movie until TEN YEARS after she showed up and everyone is saying it's too late. sigh. There's a lot of potentially great stuff here, and right now I'm sick and bummed out, so maybe I'll be more excited later. IDK.

Not to mention, altho this is REALLY grudgey, I don't feel so much like watching the Disney+ shows after the Netflix shows I was watching regularly since 2015 all got chopped in the most awful way.

Definitely not paying for Disney+. Hoping a friend will have it for the few must-watches. (Which would be Peggy on What If?)

LOL the ONLY thing we pay for is Netflix, and that was largely because it had a lot of the Marvel movies and the Netflix shows on it. Nooo sorry I am not subscribing to five different services to watch six shows! WTF.

Yeah, ngl, I have ZERO interest in a solo Nat movie at this point. She's dead!! If you wanted me to care about a solo BW movie, maybe you could have not killed her. Actually at this point it just feels like rubbing salt in the wounds. I would actually be more on board with something like a 1950s cold war spy movie about the pre-Nat BW program (Dottie!!), or something introducing Nat's successor into the MCU, as maybe the start of a BW franchise. This is just like ... why. It's too little, too late.

Natasha/Yelena is one of my fave OTPs, but I just feel so burned re MCU Nat right now. It's tinhatty of me but I think they finally did it as ScarJo's price for the character dying off, because she got the huge pay bump and executive producer status and control over the director/writer and whatever. And I just keep thinking....she's dead! They killed the character. It's so frustrating that THIS is when we get the solo movie.

I want to be more excited about Black Widow. A year ago I would have been over the moon. :(

Jane!Thor sounds good, but I'm a bit annoyed that we get a fourth Thor movie when Captain America didn't even get a proper third.

I love What If? but don't really want it in the MCU? Not now that the main timeline is such a mess. Somehow that takes all the fun out of it.

I've never even heard of Shang-Chi! But it could be fun.

I want to be more excited about Black Widow. A year ago I would have been over the moon. :(

I really WANT to be excited about it. I think if they hadn't killed off Nat I would be. Then again if they hadn't killed off Nat my whole relationship to Endgame would be very different.

Jane!Thor sounds good, but I'm a bit annoyed that we get a fourth Thor movie when Captain America didn't even get a proper third.

And Nat gets one!....after she dies.

I love What If? but don't really want it in the MCU?

I'm hoping it'll be like the comics, a standalone anthology of happy crack. I loved What If issues and used to collect them. The recent ones were seriously Glum and Glummer, though.

Yeah, it would be a completely different thing if they hadn't killed her off. :(

#ITSHOULDHAVEBEENCLINT 2k19

I am still completely and utterly baffled by the creators' "we had to kill off Natasha because doing otherwise would take agency away from her" take on Nat's sacrifice. I mean, it's not that I think they're lying, it's just such an incredibly weird way to look at that scene! And doubly so because of everything going on in Magicians fandom right now, where it's all -

MAGICIANS SPOILERS FOLLOW BUT I THINK EVERYONE WHO CARES ALREADY KNOWS

- that Quentin's sacrifice (under rather similar circumstances) was mainly to get him out of the way so other characters could be featured instead. And granted, it's different people saying so, and creators totally get to do the same thing and claim different reasons for it, but ... it's a very telling different take, you know?

I'm a bit annoyed that we get a fourth Thor movie when Captain America didn't even get a proper third.

Yes, this, though I am excited about Jane!Thor and Valkyrie and Taika Waititi returning. And Falcon and Winter Soldier will hopefully be fun.

But I've been emotionally disinvesting myself since AOU so I'm also like, this is nice but I don't feel it in the same way.

For me, Endgame killed my investment. I'll probably still enjoy some of these? But not as much as I would have, before.

I remember being REALLY HAPPY when I found out Cap wasn't going to die in Endgame, and then feeling sucker punched by the monkey's paw when the spoilers came out about Nat dying instead. (Not to mention what did happen to Steve, WTF.)

Ugh, yeah, monkey's paw indeed. It's not often that I'd rather someone were dead than get the ending they got, but Steve is definitely one of those cases.

And Nat ... I just can't forgive them for her death. That she died at all, and that she died LIKE THAT. I hate it so much.

Yeah, I think for me right now the Black Widow movie is something I have zero interest in, and it's mostly down to Endgame. I'm actually a little baffled that they're finally giving her a solo movie after killing her off. Like, what were you guys thinking?! I'm not interested in solo prequel movies for dead characters, at least not in this particular franchise.

Yeah, it's so very "what, NOW?!", I can't even. :(

Oh man, +1 times eleventy. That's exactly how I feel about all of it. I have never even heard of some of these titles.

And I really agree with upthread where they talked about nurturing the characters they do have instead of throwing in tons more--I'm glad that the representation is being explanded, but...I'd have preferred maybe some cool adventures with existing characters who were never done right by before.

I confess, I stupidly, stupidly got my hopes up after they announced the Thor thing a couple days ago--I thought maybe they could lure Chris Evans back with some sweet cashish and we could get one actual real Cap 3.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind the new characters if they'd made any effort to do right by the ones they already have. But now I really don't want to get invested in any new characters because I can't trust that they won't end up like that, too. Endgame really broke the MCU for me.

I really don't want to get invested in any new characters because I can't trust that they won't end up like that, too. Endgame really broke the MCU for me.

It really feels that way, yeah. And even if they're not going to justify it as being "for the story," they made it really clear with the Netflix and other shows that money is what matters to them, not much of anything else. (Like with that ridiculous attempt to "break" the Avatar record.)

I haven't reached burn out yet, but then I don't watch all the TV shows (and am a season or more behind on Agents atm too, which makes me sad and I must do something about that soon), so it's mainly the movies. I really enjoyed the recent Spiderman one, much better than the first one imho.

I'm looking forward to GotG 3, but then I'm not into the fandom side of things or the shippy side either. I'm curious as to where things will go now - though please, if Thor's in it, let's get the 'whose is bigger' thing (if you see what I mean) over and done with. MEN!! :D

I'm also looking forward to Doctor Strange 2, Thor 4 and Black Panther 2. I don't really know much about the other movies, though Black Widow and Shang-Chi look interesting. Not sure about Eternals, but I suppose I'll have to if it fits in with the rest (which reminds me, really need to watch Captain Marvel soon - that does look good).

As for the TV shows, I'll give Loki a try and maybe the Hawkeye one, but the TV side hasn't really caught my attention. I think I prefer my superheroes in movies more than TV, which is probably why Arrow, Legends of Tomorrow and The Flash seem to have fallen off my to-watch list (yes, I know, DC not Marvel, but still, superheroes).

I've never watched the X-Men/mutants side of Marvel (with the exception of the first Deadpool movie, which Jayne made me watch), so Mutants doesn't interest me. Not sure about Fantastic Four, I'll probably decide nearer the time on that one. I'm not sure why X-Men hasn't appealed to me *shrugs*

Yeah, I too am getting tired of superheroes. I want to be excited, but it's a LOT.

Totally hear everyone on superhero saturation/burnout...and subsequently really bitter that all the non-white non-male movies started coming out only after people started burning out. Hurts when something you've been looking forward to for half a decade (Shang-Chi) gets met with only mild-to-middling excitement in fandom. If only, if only, if only the representation had been in the MCU from the start. If only.

*hugs you* I'm sorry. It sucks.

If it helps any, I'm seeing quite a bit of excitement for Shang-Chi around my corners of the internet, more so than for really anything except the new Thor (and that one's got 7 movies' worth of hype behind it and a popular director), so it might yet turn into a BP-style runaway hit. But that's not the same as the Next Iron Man, I know.

I finally watched Captain Marvel on the plane back from Georgia (and STILL haven't seen Endgame)... I enjoyed it a great deal, though I was thoroughly spoiled of course.

I'm not a raving fangirl to start with, but I really do feel fairly saturated in MCU movies. Okay, maybe in movies altogether... my to-be-watched list keeps getting longer and my movie-watching time keeps getting rarer. I'm definitely not their target audience.

yeahhhh I've been feeling rather burnt out on superheroes for a few years at this point. There was a time when I would excitedly go see every new movie Marvel put out, and it's sad to no longer be there, but.....there I find myself. At this point I'm only seeing Marvel things where I see very good reviews of them AND they are featuring at least one of a) a person of colour, b) a woman, c) Thor.

I got burnt out a few years back, which oddly seems to have made me feel more optimistic for the upcoming phase. I reluctantly went to watch Infinity War with a friend, pretty sure that I would hate it -- and I'm never watching it again, but it was better than I expected. Then I watched Endgame feeling similarly little investment in it. I did like Ragnarok, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel.

There's so little info out yet, so I guess I'm still in a "hey, nothing to contradict this yet" mood. I'm vaguely hoping they feel like they have a safety net/audience from the previous phases and will branch out artistically so that the stories/characters end up appealing more to what I like? I mean, I'm not holding out a lot of hope but. At least now they're diversifying more with the cast and directors.

I think I'm also most looking forward to Shang-Chi! On Black Widow, I'm mostly curious what kind of story and tone they decide to go with. Also curious about the Blade movie.

I think honestly a little bit of burnout and a break is nice every now and then! Various branches of the MCU have been my main areas of fannish interest for a few years now, and I think that's part of why I'm feeling burnout now.

I'm only looking forward to Loki and T4or (Black Widow could be good but I've been burned by hope for Tasha before), but What If sounds like it could be either awesome or awful. I remember something from a while back about how one WhatIf will be Peggy as Captain America, and if so I AM HERE FOR IT FOREVER. I might even consider forgiving that final scene in Endgame. Maybe.

Edited 2019-07-22 02:11 (UTC)

I'm still enjoying them, and will likely see all of these, but I don't go on opening night (or even opening weekend) anymore. I'm definitely more invested in the individual movies than the big crossover events these days. The Falcon & Winter Soldier series is probably the one I'm most excited about (that or the new Thor), but augh, I don't want to subscribe to a new streaming service just for this...

...My Young Avenger fangirl heart is both thrilled and terrified that we're getting Kate Bishop. One step closer to the Young Avengers! But that also means one step closer to potentially totally screwing up Young Avengers. So. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, with Cassie being aged up and Kate coming into the MCU, I definitely think they're heading for Young Avengers! Which, yeah, could be really great or really terrible. I think that's one that might do best as a TV series rather than a movie, to do justice to all the characters.

They built up for ten years to their ~big finale~ and then put out the next movie in the franchise two months later! Let it breathe, guys.

Seriously! I hadn't realized there was a next wave of anything coming. Now I feel vaguely suffocated.

I strongly suspect I shall see all of these in lemming-like fashion. Of course, I don't expect a lot from action movies, so I will likely enjoy even mediocore ones so long as Shit Blows Up Real Good.

Yeah, I'm reaching Meh. I'll be excited for Thor 4 when it comes and I'll check out the TV, esp Loki and Falcon & Winter Soldier, but... meh.

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Marvel announced Phase 4 at SDCC

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