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I have any number of icons that would be hilariously inappropriate for this topic

I ran across an interesting link today on how/whether to write about periods (as in, women having them):

http://madelineashby.com/?p=1492
(detailed discussion of bodily fluids, as one might expect)

This reminded me of the time menstruation came up as a topic on a worldbuilding/spec-fic mailing list I used to be on circa 1996 or so. One of the guy writers on the list asked the women to weigh in on how they felt about fictional depictions of menstruation. Mainly he wanted to know if female readers are thrown out of the story if it's not mentioned, and did we feel it would plausibly affect a female character's ability to ride/fight/etc to a degree that should be mentioned for realism?

IIRC, the eventual consensus (which I think is pretty reasonable) was:

- The range of female experience is so incredibly broad that almost anything is at least plausible;
- It isn't noticeable (to most readers) if it's not mentioned;
- Writing it awkwardly or gratuitously is a lot more jarring to most readers than not writing it at all.

In other words, what we ended up with was: no need to write it if you aren't comfortable with the topic or just don't care, but it adds a bit of realism if you do mention it occasionally (especially if they're in a situation where it might plausibly come up, like trapped somewhere or out in the field for months) and there's enough individual variation that you can basically get away with whatever your plot needs.

Anyway, I don't agree with everything at the above link (in particular the implication that a writer has to mention it for realism, which is very much not my belief), but it has some interesting discussion, especially in the comments. I was particularly interested by the comment which mentions that female cycle-syncing is largely a myth, which has certainly been my experience.

What do you think? Have you ever mentioned it in a story yourself, or seen it done well? Would you write it? Is there a scenario you think is usually done poorly that could be done better?

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Laughing at your subject line and, well, the icon.

I've used menstruation in my genderfuckery, in less than serious ways; otherwise most of my creations are too short to genuinely bring up the question -- the other longer story of mine featured a pregnant protag, so. ;)

LOL, I was trying to find an icon that worked for the subject without being hilariously inappropriate, and then decided to give up and embrace the inappropriateness. :D

I'm not sure if I've ever actually addressed it in anything. I do remember toying with the idea of doing a fic that dealt with the question of feminine hygiene products during Atlantis's initial year of separation from Earth, but gave up because I couldn't figure out what angle to approach it from.

In general I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned. Except for one or two Highlander fics where it is specifically stated that immortal women stop having cycles once they experience first death. I don't even recall why the author mentioned it. However, many things are a given even if they aren't mentioned. Most characters don't go to the bathroom either. Even characters forced together in a single location for hours - or days.

It seems very plausible to me that Immortal women wouldn't cycle, especially given the combination of infertility + rapid healing -- it's actually less plausible to me that they would than not.

The above link mentions other bodily functions briefly, and I remember this coming up in the mailing list discussion as well. I just edited a bit into the above post indicating that I really don't agree with the link's (quasi) proscriptive approach to including menstruation as an element of realism; I don't normally feel the lack myself, even in long-term fantasy-road-trip plots where it really ought to come up. I think I'd be interested to see it handled in a fantasy setting, though, if only as a world-building thing -- I'd like to see how the characters deal with it! (Future sci-fi is a different kettle of fish; I think you can very plausibly handwave that they use implantable birth control and don't cycle anymore, and leave it at that ...)

One of the only times I remember menstruation in a SF novel is in Doris Egan's "Gates of Ivory" trilogy -- the heroine has been stuck on not-her-home-planet for a couple of years, and her implant expires, so one of the guys she's with has to go buy her some tampons, and she's like "uh, what do I do with these?"

*he explains it* *everybody looks at him* ".... I have five sisters, okay."

heh, that sounds pretty neat, actually! Like I mentioned in a comment below, I think that a switch from high to lower tech is one of those places where it might plausibly come up, if a character was having to deal with less sanitary arrangements than normal for them.

I have seen it mentioned, but it's definitely one of those things where it's so rare that it stands out when I do see it.

It comes up in the manga 7 Seeds, which takes place in a post-apocalyptic setting, and is even a plot point.

Yeah, I think post-apocalypse settings, or anywhere else that someone has to go from modern/future tech to pre-modern, is one of the places where it makes sense to discuss it a little bit. Kind of like you might talk about bathroom arrangements if the characters were having to camp out for the first time, but if they habitually camp in the woods there's little point in bringing it up because choosing a bathroom spot is just a casual part of camp-making for them.

I definitely don't think it *has* to be mentioned, but I'd like to see it mentioned in scenarios that include gender swapping/being disguised a the opposite gender, long stretches of captivity our isolation, or I guesses if someone is having a REALLY BAD DAY that the author wants to make just a little bit worse. I'd probably find it jarring it if were added to a story as just another facet of realism.

(I also think she misrepresented the correlation between pros and iron deficiency, which to my knowledge is not actually true.)

Re synched cycles - they certainly felt very real when I was in boot camp, but that is very anecdotal and not scientific in the slightest :-)

Yeah, I think I'm usually unlikely to think about it if it's not mentioned, but it adds a nice touch of realism if it does come up.

I hope I wasn't too dismissive of syncing. It's something I've never personally experienced, but that doesn't mean it can't happen, just that it doesn't always!

This is a total tangent, and probably TMI, but you mention syncing, so here goes. It happened to my mom and me. Worse, she was going through menopause, and I was having such horrific medical problems from my period (I'm allergic to progesterone, and my body interpreted my period as an excuse to make me lose massive amounts of weight and become seriously ill) that my body was trying to keep me from having one for it's own protection. My mother's periods spoiled that, and no matter how far apart they were, two weeks apart, four months apart, whatever, I didn't have a period between hers, and as soon as she started, mine started the next day.

Oh wow, that sounds absolutely nightmarish. D:

I hope I wasn't too dismissive of syncing; it's something that never happened to me, my mom and sister, for whatever reason, so it makes me eyebrow a bit when it's treated as something that ALWAYS happens. But the comments are definitely indicating that it's a relatively common (anecdotal) experience at the very least.

Yeah, I insisted that there was something horribly wrong with my period from day one, when I was eleven, and my mom insisted I was imagining things at first, there was nothing wrong, and then switched to insisting that it had nothing to do with my period when it became obvious something was wrong. Finally, I started my period in my immunologist's office when I was eighteen, and she was like "oh, yeah, that's a rare symptom of your disease. We can fix that." I've never quite let my mother forget that.

Also anecdotally, everybody I knew who synced had something "wrong" or unusual about the cycle of someone in the group.

Maybe that's what makes people notice it? Because otherwise it would just seem like normal cycling to most people.

I've also realized through discussion (over at LJ, I think) that in most of the situations when I WOULD have experienced cycling, it's very likely that a lot of the people involved were on hormonal birth control, which would have stopped that from happening. (College dorms and whatnot.) Which might be why I never noticed the effect. I had really never thought about that before.

Anyway, I hope your immunologist was able to fix it. That does sound like a miserable nightmare of an experience.

I think the first reference to periods I ever saw in fiction as a kid was in Diane Duane's The Door into Fire, where there's one brief mention, in one scene, that one of the female characters "had pled time-of-moon pains and retired early." I appreciated that matter-of-factness for what it told me about the world: that this was a place where a woman traveling with a group of men would feel no particular shame or awkwardness mentioning her period, and her companions would treat it no differently than any other physical ailment.

I feel no particular need for my fiction to contain the nitty-gritty details of blood and poop and vomit. I guess there are contexts in which I wouldn't mind, but too much seems like grimdark for the sake of grimdark.

Grimdark for grimdark's sake -- yes, exactly! If it's plot-relevant, I want to hear about it, but I don't really feel the need for the author to wallow in details simply for the sake of "realism".

I just realized, after talking to Cathexys, that the German novel Feuchtgebiete, Wetlands, made into a movie, totally qualifies: It's an exploration of taboos in German society via a meandering first-person tale by a young woman finding herself (and love, and all that), but mostly it's known for involving ALL THE BODILY FLUIDS EVER11!!, which totally involves menstruation and menstrual blood -- in, err, various places. ;)

Oh, interesting! :D I ... am not sure if that would be too much for me as a movie (possibly easier to read without squicking than to actually see!).

I remixed someone else's fic based on one line in it about Firefly's Inara getting her period, especially around the whole timing thing - why does it always happen at the worst possible moment?

But I've never touched on it since, and now I'm thinking I really should, because it must suck being a super-hero and getting your period, or being kept prisoner while it happens, or planning a sexy night with your girlfriend and one of you getting your period... Apparently, in my head, all my characters are like me and have unpredictable period!

*unpredictable cycle high five* IT IS SO ANNOYING, ISN'T IT. :D These people who know exactly when they're going to start and can mark their calendars by it ... I do not relate to that. (Right now I'm taking birth control pills for health reasons and, since it's been 15 years since I last took hormonal birth control, I'd forgotten how amazing it is to know EXACTLY when it's going to hit me, rather than always being surprised at the worst possible time.)

You're right, we should totally do this to our characters. :D Because what is the point of experiencing something inconvenient and unpleasant if you don't do it to a fictional character at some point?

NK Jemisin deals with it in "The Broken Kingdoms" (which has a blind female protag), but to say anything else heads toward spoiler.

I have the first book in the series on my shelf to read! (And I WILL get to it eventually, I swear. :D) Many of the things I've heard about the series sound interesting, and this among them.

I mentioned it once in an original story - partly because whether a character was pregnant or not was relevant to the plot, and partly to illustrate cultural differences between two female characters from different backgrounds. (Character A is stunned and mortified that Character B asks her a direct question about it in front of others, and Character B doesn't understand why this is a problem.)

(Then there's the bit in "Penelope Weaving" where Kate uses a male FBI agent's horror at the thought of buying her tampons to evade surveillance for a few minutes ...)

As a general rule, I don't feel the need to mention it (or bathroom/personal hygiene stuff in general) unless the situation is unusual for the character - ie for an experienced soldier who spends a lot of time in the field, I wouldn't mention it. If it's a character who's not used to spending a lot of time camping out or hiking through the woods for months at a time, and who would have to learn to modify how she handles it as a result, I'd add a line or two.

Oh right, I remember that bit! That was a good bit. :)

And yes, for me personally I agree that this is the approach that works best. I don't really feel the lack of it's not there, but I like seeing it dealt with in a situation when it would plausibly come up.

Sometimes I get really curious about it on a worldbuilding level. Like, I have seriously pondered whether the Atlantis expedition required all women to be using cups or reusable pads before they left Earth the first time. But this is honestly more of a question about what a world is doing regarding products we often think of as disposable than a question of menstruation itself.

But even if I was writing something like a post-apocalyptic story where that sort of question might matter, I doubt I'd give it more than a line or two, if I gave it even that much. I'd definitely think about it, but I have a tendency to over-worldbuild.

I do not lie, back when I was fannishly specializing in SGA, I TOTALLY thought about writing a story dealing with that aspect of the Atlantis expedition in the first year. For me it went along with the whole "cut off from civilization FOREVER" aspect, which has always been interesting to me.

But, yeah, I don't feel the lack if it's not mentioned; mostly I guess it just adds realism when it's dealt with where it would plausibly come up.

On the one hand... if the protagonist is female, and the subject never comes up? Unless the characterisation marks her as the sort of person who would purposely not acknowledge her own biology, I start wondering what's up with the world she's in. As others here have noted, periods often have the worst timing, so for a charcter to never even consider it - even a throwaway "there were already tampons stashed in her purse" or "and she chugged a contraceptive potion before heading off on quest" would go a long way toward providing some clues.

Otherwise, I'm going to spend all of the flirting/romance/sex scenes muttering, Well, you don't know how babies happen, you think this a great situation for pregnancy, or you are somehow immune but it's so obvious to you that you aren't thinking about it at all and that seems odd.

On the other hand, there's a sort of subtle fantasy-fulfillment element to the stories where it's never discussed, because I have hardcore issues with my own biology and the idea that there's a world where that Just Doesn't Happen is a world I can get behind.

This is kind of a random side note, but this made me think of how deeply annoyed I was when *spoilery character* in Fringe got pregnant despite having ALL THE REASONS IN THE WORLD to be very very careful about contraception. I mean, yes, mistakes do happen, but I wish there had been even a throwaway line like "Damn, that must have been the night the condom broke!", because otherwise it makes the character look like someone who doesn't comprehend basic biology whenever it's narratively convenient and aargh, apparently I still have issues with this. >_>

Anyway, I guess for me it does depend largely on the worldbuilding and the plot, because there are many situations in which I can easily handwave the details (most sci-fi settings, for example, could very plausibly have technological solutions that are so commonplace the narrator doesn't need to mention it).

On the other OTHER hand, this is making me want to look back at my own writing and check to make sure I haven't ignored it at a time when it would logically come up. :D Like bad weather, I think it's easy for a writer (even someone who has to deal with it herself!) to just carry on without thinking about it. I often have to go back and add rain to my books because I was just writing Plot and suddenly realized they'd gone a month without a cloud in the sky and seriously, where were they, the Sahara?! I think this is one of those things. But it can add so much to a story when it's dropped in at a plausible plot location.

HAHAHAHA, yes, there is nothing I hate more than ill-timed unconsidered character pregnancy! I had to give up on the ST:AOS kinkmeme eventually, because the sheer number of prompts that boiled down to "a person on the Enterprise gets pregnant [often unexpectedly]" with the implied riders and decides to keep it and is happy about it... Never mind that this is a ship full of ambitious and extremely bright people who are just beginning their careers, in a universe where there's political unrest and their ship may end up in the middle of it. ~~And having a baby onboard a Starfleet vessel worked out SO WELL for Winona Kirk!~~

No matter how they might feel about parenthood in general, the idea that they 1- aren't on guard against it in a general way, given the tech level of the universe, and 2- would jump into it with a big smile without a second thought, in the face of everything we're shown about them and everything one can infer about their immediate future, made me want to scream at the prompters on the them of Did we watch the same movie and What part of this sounds like a good idea to you and Why do you think that's the conclusion a genius would draw from this set of facts. *facepalming*

Like bad weather

Heh, yep, that could trip people up! I might be especially prone to that, actually, because I grew up in a desert and "the weather will be warm and dry" was pretty much the default state of existence. :D It's not that other sorts of weather never happened; just that they were The Other and not the norm. (I loved watching storms roll in during monsoon season; I'd stand on my back patio and watch as the wind picked up and the clouds gathered, while the air was suffused with hints of moisture and the blossoming scent of creosote and the heat lightning spidered its way across the ash-black sky.)

Would you mind if we linked to this in

metanews?

Sure, go for it! :)

I may be something of an oddity but I always find myself wondering how people deal with the mundane issues that go along with being human when I'm reading epic fantasy or space opera or whatever. I'm always wondering where the washrooms are and what they use as toilet paper and how they clean up the bodily fluids after sex and how they deal with menstruation and how often they shower/bathe and so forth. So I love it when these things are dealt with, either in brief or in detail! I still remember being delighted when I read the novel The Beacon At Alexandria because it was one of those "girl crossdresses as a boy to make it in the world" novels and it ACTUALLY ADDRESSED HOW SHE DEALT WITH HER PERIOD and I was like YES EXACTLY THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN ISSUE IN ALLLLLL THE CROSSDRESSING GIRL NOVELS SO WHY IS THIS THE ONLY ONE THAT MENTIONS IT.

But I don't think it's necessary for realism, no. It can certainly add to the realism! But books by their nature elide over things, and that's normal. If a book actually covered every single thing that happened within the timeframe of the story it would get very unwieldy and very unfocused.

But I still wish I had more examples than The Beacon At Alexandria and a couple of Tamora Pierce books that ACKNOWLEDGED that most ladies in fact do bleed on a monthly basis!

The Bone Doll's Twin by Lynn Flewelling has a girl who is magically disguised as a boy for plot-related reasons and his first period is relevant to both his experience of his body and the way the magic works. (After she is changed back at a later date she finds her period quite annoying, not being used to having one.)

Hee! I totally get the wondering about it, although I agree that an author can't and shouldn't deal with everything ... Which just reminded me of a self-published sci-fi novel I once read which, while otherwise good, actually DID describe every mundane action the characters took, like brushing teeth and making breakfast and opening doors. (SOOOO MANY DOORS OH MY GOD.)

But yeah, I appreciate when the author takes the time to explain the details. One of the reasons why I love Lindsey Davis's Roman murder mysteries is because they go into so many of the mundane details of life in those times, including the main couple's fumbling attempts to use crocodile dung and honey as contraceptives after the main female character almost dies in childbirth. (Although typing this has made me realize that I don't remember a specific time when menstruation was discussed in the books! That seems like quite an oversight, since they deal with everything from toilet paper to trash disposal. Now I'm going to be keeping my eye out for it...)

Have you read icarus_chained's The Logistics of the Fleet? If not it might be up your street.

I've seen it a few times in Narnia fanfic; since there are female characters going from child to adult to child, menstruation (or the lack of it) can be a useful indicator of that whole change, and characters can talk about that (as in "I thought I was late, but now I realise it's just that my body's changed"). I don't think I've ever seen menstruation treated as something which impedes action for the characters, though.

One interesting thing about all of this discussion is that it really is making me think about how I handle it in my own fiction! (Fannish and otherwise.) I compared it in another comment to writing about weather; there have been times when I've realized I got so caught up in the plot that I've given the characters a month or two of nonstop sunny weather and, you know, there probably should be at least SOME inconvenient rain in all of that time, unless they're in like the SAHARA or something. I think this might be one of those things, where it's really easy to get caught up in plot details and not think about it. Now I'm going to try to think about it a little more!

Thanks for the link. It sounds interesting, and I plan to go have a read.

As for examples, Connie Willis' short story "Even the Queen" doesn't actually have any periods in it, as it's about a world in which women can choose to have their periods or not, and the main character is a teenage woman thinking about being a rebel and having them and her discussions with female relatives. It's pretty awesome. :)

I've read that story! :) I remember actually being kind of annoyed with her main "voice of reason" character's attitude towards the kids who were experimenting with their natural bodily functions, but possibly that was because I was a dumb experimental kid myself at the time. *g*

Another book that dealt not with periods but their absence was Katharine Kerr's first Deverry book: the main character doesn't menstruate for a long time through semi-starvation and a physically difficult quest, doesn't get pregnant despite several bouts of unprotected sex, and assumes that this means she's infertile. This is a relief to her, but then her mentor tells her that no, as soon as she has enough to eat and isn't engaged in such extreme exercise, she should be just fine. This becomes a plot point as she has to decide what to do about her noble boyfriend who will, of course, need to have legitimate heirs.

Oh, interesting! I am becoming increasingly intrigued by all the different fictional options that people are mentioning. It's making me both a) think about how I write it in my own fiction, and b) want to check out some of these for myself. So, basically, WIN! \o/

I wrote a fic where the main characters (three women from a modern era) dealt with their periods on a pirate ship in a medieval era. (boiled sea sponges as tampons) and I was really surprised how many reviews mentioned that they liked that the scene was there and discussed among the characters.

Ooh, that sounds interesting! It's a very creative solution, too.

I have periods and going to the bathroom in the same category for writing. But periods are good if it's plot related in a young adult novel or something about pregnancy. Otherwise, it can read awkwardly or just gross people out.

About syncing -- that is definitely a myth. There was only one study done about it, but the study had a lot of problems in how it was carried out. I forgot the specifics for how the study is invalid, but psychologists disregard it.

*nods* Yeah, I think they are in the same category for me too -- include if relevant, starts to feel a bit gratuitous if not.

I haven't experienced syncing myself, but several other people in the comments (here and over on LJ) mentioned having personally experienced it themselves -- so it may not be inevitable or happen to all women, but it does happen to some!

Oh, man, this is one of those threads that makes me think, "Thank god for the fanfic community!" Because this issue wouldn't have occurred to me, precisely because the writers I read have avoided this whole topic.

I don't find periods as squicky a topic as some of the other folks here evidently do, but this reminds me of my struggles over whether to have my stories mention bathroom matters, which is definitely a squick area for me. When it reached the point where I was writing prison fiction, there was no way I could avoid the topic of sanitation; I just gritted my teeth and added the appropriate information to my stories. Turned out to be a lot less painful than I thought it would be.

Dusk (a fellow friendshipper)

Hi! :) Yeah, I think it's something that each person is going to have their own squick threshold for. I don't think I've ever dealt with it in my own fiction, at least not overtly, and I don't think it's something I would mention in detail if it wasn't plot-relevant ... but all of the discussion is making me want to keep a bit of a closer eye on it and see if there are places where it might plausibly come up.

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I have any number of icons that would be hilariously inappropriate for this topic

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Here via metanews

Re: Here via metanews