sholio: sun on winter trees (Meredith Jeannie)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2007-12-01 03:24 pm

SGA 4x09: Miller's Crossing

I normally write my episode reaction before I go around reading other people's, but in this case I've kinda done the opposite, so a dozen other people have already pretty much covered everything I would have.

But, wow. Wow.

Okay, I have a confession to make here (not much of a confession, really, for those who know me). I have a lousy track record at correctly gauging and intepreting John Sheppard's character and behavior. At the end of season 2, I insisted that the Woobie!John with trust and touch issues was just an invention of the fandom. Then season 3 totally blew me out of the water on that one. I've been insisting with equal or greater vehemence that the "darkness" so many fans perceive in John isn't really there, or at least isn't really something that the writers intend to be there; it's just John, a basically decent human being, responding to circumstance.

Um. So. I'm totally sold on the "dark John" characterization now. Sold. It's not that John's a bad person (which I don't think anyone's been trying to say, anyway); it's just that he's capable of doing some really freakin' scary things to protect his loved ones. When he said "... anything, for any one of you" in Sateda -- he wasn't kidding.

I didn't realize until this episode that we've never actually seen him pushed that far before. In Doppelganger, I remember feeling much the same way -- that he'd never been pushed that far, never put in a situation where denial wasn't cutting it and he really had to face up to both the reality of losing a loved one (*cough*Rodney*cough*) and to his own subconscious issues. But Miller's Crossing took him that one step further, and put him in a similar situation, but one that he can't shoot his way out of, can't solve by throwing himself on a grenade (which actually was what I was expecting him to do at first -- offer himself in exchange for Rodney). In Doppelganger, there was an enemy to take down. Here, there wasn't one -- just an implacable disease and a broken man who'd watched his daughter die and even been responsible for hastening her death.

And John took that broken man and emotionally manipulated him into sacrificing himself in Rodney's place. What makes it worse is that you can see (in the lab, and then at the end) what it's done to him to do that, and the lengths of denial that he's going through to rationalize it as something other than murder. John's not a psychopath; he's still John, but what he did was ... chilling, there's no other word for it. In a sense, he threw himself on the grenade anyway, even if it wasn't his life he gave up. Rodney was willing to sacrifice his own life to save Jeannie; John sold his soul to save Rodney. I loved the thread of family and love and sacrifice running through the episode, with the stakes ever escalating, from Wallace to Rodney to John -- three people faced with the loss of someone they were willing to give anything to save.

Anything.

And it was perfectly played, too. You could see how much it was costing John to do what he did. The writing, acting, everything in the last 15 minutes of the episode was just fantastic -- the subtlety, the way so much of what happened was unspoken, would never be spoken, but was there for the seeing nonetheless. The level of John's desperation, the way he turns it around and makes Rodney's problem all about him, because he knows that it ought to be Rodney's decision but "... I can't." He can't, he just can't lose another one of them, and he's willing to play every card in his hand to prevent it, first pulling out the team-leader card and, when that doesn't seem likely to work (because, really, John, you KNOW how Rodney is about following your orders!) he'll take another path ... a very dark path, but when the choice is between someone else's life, or the lives of his family? He'll willingly walk into that Hell.

Of course, Wallace isn't innocent. It's not like John went out and grabbed someone off the street to use for Wraith fodder. It was, after all, Wallace's direct, calculated actions that got them into this, even if he didn't want it to go this far. John's not just rationalizing when he says that he merely presented the situation and let Wallace make the decision. And from John's point of view, of course, this is the right decision for Wallace to make -- it's Wallace's mess and surely, as John sees it, it's Wallace's responsibility to clean it up, not Rodney's. In John's mind, Wallace should have walked into the SGC and offered himself in sacrifice anyway, and all that John did was lean on him until he made the "right" decision.

But what makes it trickier yet is that what motivated Wallace is exactly what motivates John. Did Wallace do anything John might not have done under the circumstances? Not necessarily ... and in fact, after the way that the events of this episode played out, I'm thinking John would totally have done what Wallace did. He probably would have tried a more direct approach in the beginning; I don't see an immediate resort to kidnapping and threats being John's style. But, you know, if Rodney or Teyla or Ronon were dying, and John had in his grasp a scientist who could save them but wouldn't, I can see him putting pressure on the other guy in exactly the same way that Wallace did here: putting one of the other guy's loved ones in exactly the same peril as his own, forcing him to come up with a solution. Especially in light of this episode, isn't that a "John" thing to do? And it would all work out, and John would be lauded as a hero, albeit a desperate one. But for Wallace, it didn't work out and he ended up paying the ultimate price, at John's (somewhat metaphorical) hands. The only difference between Wallace and John is that Wallace's plan failed and John's didn't. Well -- that, and Wallace never set out to kill anybody. John did and it's not right, to the integrity of the show or John's character, to gloss over that.

And they didn't! How much do I love that they didn't. Of course, this is SGA and the effects won't really carry through into the next episode. But they had that final scene in John's quarters, and again with the subtlety -- let no one say that Rodney can't be emotionally sensitive when he tries, because he sees exactly what John's doing with the rationalizations, and, in total contradiction to what you'd expect Rodney to do, he doesn't push it ... just plays along and then offers him a much-need shot of normality at the end there. Rodney probably needs it as much as John does, because Wallace died to save him and his sister, and if he and John both tell each other that it wasn't their fault often enough, it makes it easier to live with.

Wow -- I've gotten so deep into meta-ing about the last 15 minutes of the episode that I haven't even really addressed the rest of it! But, you know, I don't have a whole lot to say. I was pretty "meh" on the first half -- it was awesome to see Jeannie and I adore the whole "John and Ronon on Earth" thing, but the episode moved along so fast and jumped from point to point so quickly that there was no time to dwell and enjoy any of it. Also, the Rodney and Jeannie interaction seemed a little flat at first. Things were just moving too quickly for much banter or interaction to take place between anyone. (Although it's wide open for missing scenes! John playing with Madison, John introducing Ronon to Earth culture ...) One of the things I always liked about SG-1 was the way they periodically dealt with the effects of the Stargate program on Earth technology and politics, and I was very happy to see some of that here. But ... the plot holes! What kind of trained government agent goes to check out a tip with nothing but a civilian for backup? Just exactly how many people know or at least have to suspect about the Stargate program at this point, anyway? (For starters, Wallace's henchmen? His daughter's caretakers? The Vancouver PD? Just what exactly have they been telling people, anyway?) How on Earth did John sell Landry on his plan regarding Wallace? And I really could have used at least a throwaway line of dialogue mentioning Teyla's absence; there are perfectly valid reasons why she'd have stayed at home, but the fact that it wasn't even mentioned cast a bit of a pall over the early part of the episode for me.

But, there were still so many little bits of squee. The Rodney/Jeannie banter and the way they're so much more open with their affection now -- from estranged and wary siblings to something more like regular, bickery-but-affectionate siblings; the scientists at the beginning; the hotness of Ronon and John in suits; Walter in the caferia (how has the man SURVIVED this many years at the SGC?); the casual way that Rodney walks into John's quarters and sits down at the end, making it evident just how much John doesn't mind Rodney in his personal space, and Rodney knows it. (And he called him John again! Squee!)
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (atlantis - armed and dangerous)

[personal profile] naye 2007-12-02 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
This was such an amazingly well-written analysis of exactly what I felt was going on, but couldn't really find a way to express, and I'm so glad you wrote it! Really, it hits on everything I felt sort of vaguely, or only realized part of, and brings it into sharp focus.

I still think I see it as a little less dark than you, maybe, but - that's not because of the character, but because of the writing, and that's weirdly dissonant. (He was written as someone who had just lost his "reason to live", and someone who had done the sort of thing that usually gets you killed by the good guys during the rescue scene. In TV-land, he almost had to die, because that's how these things work.)

In the show's universe, looking at the characters actions and reactions - then I'm totally with you. All the way. It was a very, very twisted thing to do, and John knows it. That's probably my favourite part of it - that he isn't just doing this in the heat of passion, desperate to save his friend. Yes, he is desperate to save his friend, but he is also walking into the situation with his eyes fully open, and afterwards he is only too aware of what kind of act he just committed. But for Rodney? It's worth it. Anything for his team. Anything. And seeing that in action totally blew me away.

It's interesting to remember that John's been involved in feeding someone to the Wraith before - but then it was Carson's decision, Carson's guilt, and the victim was also a dying man choosing to hasten his passing. In "Poisoning the Well", the guy was willing to make the sacrifice for his entire world, and because he didn't have much time left anyway. But back then, John seems pretty intensely creeped out and horrified by the whole thing.

And yay for your discussion of how this episode very clearly parallelled Wallace's actions with those things our guys were saying and doing, because - it's true. He was doing what he did out of love for his family, and both John and Rodney really would do anything in their power to save their own family. We see it right there in the episode! Wallace's motivation was his love for his daughter, and the fact that he felt there was something he could do other than just watch her die. Not really evil. Nothing he deserved death by Wraith for, really. And John knows that, and Rodney knows that, and that we were showed both of them actually dealing with this (in their own special way) was - so, so good. I would have felt cheated without that final scene, but it really did make it all work, and pack such an amazing emotional punch.

The rest of the episode - I really do hope that Martin Gero has a good explanation for why Teyla's absence wasn't even mentioned in the episode, as it was driving me nuts. (As [livejournal.com profile] xparrot pointed out - he's never been very good at including Teyla in this kind of ep, and that's sad.) But it was fun enough - and then the last fifteen minutes happened, and then it was awesome.

Rodney in John's personal space! Yes! And you have to assume the first thing he did when he got back was seek out John. To talk. SUCH best friends! ♥

ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:17 am (UTC)(link)
In TV-land, he almost had to die, because that's how these things work. ... In the show's universe, looking at the characters actions and reactions - then I'm totally with you.

Heh. But don't we all switch back and forth between in-universe analysis and out-of-universe analysis all the time? Out-of-universe, we know that Rodney can't die -- most of the main characters are immune to sudden death or severe character changes (barring spoilers to the contrary). Out of universe, we know that scenes are shot a certain way because of budget constraints, or that we didn't see [x] onscreen because they couldn't get the actor for the episode, etc.

I hadn't even really thought about it that way because it's so natural to me to put aside the out-of-universe considerations when doing in-universe meta ... and vice versa. Hey, there's probably some meta in that...

That's probably my favourite part of it - that he isn't just doing this in the heat of passion, desperate to save his friend. Yes, he is desperate to save his friend, but he is also walking into the situation with his eyes fully open, and afterwards he is only too aware of what kind of act he just committed.

I know! Most of John's "dark" acts in the past have been very much heat-of-the-moment things -- killing 60 Genii, or the genocide against the transformed Wraith, were decisions he made in a split second because circumstances gave him no choice. Here, he had to think about it and come up with a solution -- and I think THAT is what has finally sold me on the existence of a legitimate dark side for John. This is not a solution that Rodney or Jeannie or, probably, Carter or Elizabeth would have even considered as a legitimate possibility. It probably wouldn't have even occurred to them. But John not only thought of it but had the will to push those buttons until Wallace cracked. It's a horrible thing, but what makes it real in a way that some of their other horrible decisions haven't been is that you can see what it's doing to John to make that decision.

And you have to assume the first thing he did when he got back was seek out John. To talk. SUCH best friends!

Oh, so much! Yeah, John's "oh, you're back!" reaction seems to indicate pretty clearly that he's just gotten back -- and of course the first thing he does is come and check in with John. Rodney's never in a state where he's not thinking and fretting, so surely he's been going over it in his head the whole time he's on Earth.

I wonder if part of his reason for coming to see John and quizzing him was just to see if John understood the magnitude of what he did -- aside from worrying about John, and wanting to thank him, I also felt like Rodney needed the touchstone of knowing that their friendship hadn't changed, that John hadn't changed, that the guy who talked someone into committing suicide was still the same guy he plays chess with and hangs out with.

[identity profile] sgatazmy.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 01:51 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, exactly everything I wanted to say as well! This really was dark and it's emphasized by the fact John makes sure they have the same story for the record because in the real world that's at least manslaughter if not murder 2. The biggest thing is that this didn't happen during a battle, this didn't happen in the heat of the moment, but it was still a decision John would make, would have to make. And I do think it will haunt him.

My issue though, is that I can't see them, as in the end, just agreeing to let it go and it staying that way. I think John might be able to ignore it and only let the guilt come out when he is alone, but Rodney...I think it would gnaw at Rodney for a while until it began gnaw at him, until he could talk about it. He was willing to die, and now someone else died in his place...in a sense was killed to save him, and while other have died for him before, it was never like this. That's why I wrote the tag I sent you, I just can't imagine him being able to live with that for very long.

So while I see the last scene being completely in character, I don't see it lasting.

And this is where Teyla is needed as a team member. Teyla is the one person I think either of them could talk to about all of this.

Let's also not forget that Ronon must have played some part as well.

But really, for me, the acting was the best bit. JF played the end scenes amazingly well, but so did DH. I saw how desperate Rodney was to save his sister, as desperate as John was to save Rodney. I almost thought Rodney would inject the Wraith with the nanites, but this was so much darker. I love how John didn't let him into the labs (did he steal Rodney's card key or something?), protecting him not only from the fact the crime would be committed, but protecting Rodney from being a part of it at all. John made it very clear that the death was not Rodney's fault, it was all Sheppard's, and that act of friendship is just amazing.

What amazes me is how they took something we write so happily about in fanfic, their need to do anything for each other, to keep each other alive, and then to give it back to us in all of its dark undertones.

Wow, I wrote a lot, sorry.
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:28 am (UTC)(link)
Getting their stories straight, yeah ... it's interesting that the first thing John does when Rodney walks into the lab is give him the official story, and emphasize that that's what it is -- which is, granted, probably for the viewer's benefit as well, but he's also telling Rodney, "Don't look too closely at this, don't ask questions about the obvious holes in the story, not unless you want us to both go down."

Interesting thought about their little detente falling apart. And, um, I haven't looked over your story yet. Soon's I answer a few more posts, I'll go do that!

[identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 02:01 am (UTC)(link)
I'll just leave the well thought out analysis to you. That was perfect.

The crux of this episode was all about family. What any of us were willing to do moral, immoral to save and protect someone we love.

Wallace crossed a line at kidnapping and infecting Jeanie.

Rodney was willing to be fed to a Wraith.

John played the manipulation card with Wallace to atone for all the sins.

Each of them did what they felt forced to do in the name of family.

Just wow.
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, and I loved the escalation of it -- Wallace expected to go to jail for what he'd done, Rodney expected to die, and John basically sold his soul to save Rodney.

I really love that recent episodes have been giving us these meaty, interesting developments to mull over. Being able to squee over an episode is great and I'm not complaining about it, but episodes like this one are so full of depths to explore.
ext_2909: (Default)

[identity profile] deaka.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 02:14 am (UTC)(link)
Great ep reaction! I thought this was a strange episode, almost like two crammed into one - the first half was oddly off-balance and rushed, and then the second half... wow. My main reaction was, 'wow, is John screwed up or what?'... just the way the ending was played, and how you can see that Rodney recognises how carefully John's rationalising what happened, and maybe what it cost John? Up until this episode, I didn't really put much stock on the whole 'dark, tortured John' idea, but now I don't know what to think. :p

ext_1981: (SGA-dorks)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:38 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, the first half of the episode was basically setting up all the dominoes for the second half, and unfortunately, it felt like it; it really needed to be about another half-hour to make everything feel logical. But if they had to cut a lot out of the first half to make the second half work, it was worth it, because everything in the second half fell together so well.

I'm with you, I'd never thought of Sheppard as the dark and tormented type; I don't think he's shallow, exactly, just that I don't (didn't) think that he was going around with all this darkness and guilt simmering under the skin as some writers characterize him. But ... wow, this episode really changed the whole way that I see him.

[identity profile] blade-girl.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 02:27 am (UTC)(link)
Although it's wide open for missing scenes!

And episode tags! Not that I have an idea for one. Okay, I totally do.

What kind of trained government agent goes to check out a tip with nothing but a civilian for backup?

The kind who needs to get the main character in place to be kidnapped by ambush, silly. ;)

John did and it's not right, to the integrity of the show or John's character, to gloss over that... And they didn't!

I know, I was pleasantly surprised to see the moral and emotional ramifications of that being acknowledged, even subtly. Usually, they do something fairly reprehensible (like double-crossing an ally) and barely blink, leaving me feeling rather ashamed on their behalf. This time, there was actual angst in play, and that was refreshing.


ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:43 am (UTC)(link)
Ooh, tags! \o/

Usually, they do something fairly reprehensible (like double-crossing an ally) and barely blink, leaving me feeling rather ashamed on their behalf. This time, there was actual angst in play, and that was refreshing.

Yeah, and that's exactly why I haven't really enjoyed previous episodes that explored the "dark" side of their galaxy, or attempted to do so. It just came off feeling like it cheapened and trivialized the experience and the characters. I adore their juvenile antics in a relaxed setting, but it's kind of horrifying to have them still acting like 10-year-olds against a backdrop of interstellar war.

But there's a time and a place for being jokesters, and a time and a place to be grown-ups, and I feel like the last couple of episodes have really given them a chance to grow ... and no easy outs from the script that would prevent them from doing so.

[identity profile] susnn.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 02:33 am (UTC)(link)
I'll echo everyones' wows. I actually anticipated that Wallace would feed the wraith as soon as I saw "Todd" take a dive. But then, that's probably because I've read so many British mysteries and such like in which the disgraced gentleman is taken to the library, given a drink and a weapon, and the silence in which to make amends in the way that causes the least harm to others. I though Joe F. played the last 15 minutes note perfect. I did think, though, that his decision to offer Wallace the chance to atone was as much a calculated decision that did take into account Rodney's importance to Atlantis, Jeannie's innocence and family and Wallace's guilt as it was an emotional reaction to Rodney's impending loss. I did think it interesting that there were so many people attending Wallace's death. That says that this was not something that John pulled off by himself. I also think that it must have been incredibly hard on Sheppard since he, of all people, know what it means to be fed upon. I do think that the time between Elizabeth and Carter, and even the time while Elizabeth was in a coma or compromised, matured John in command. He probably sent a mental apology to his superiors for his attitude if not his actions.

What this episode does bring to light is the problem of having a wraith as a guest. Up to this point I haven't agonized over the actions of the Atlanteans much because I saw their decisions in terms of survival. If the wraith must feed on humans, then unless humanity is into suicide, they must take whatever steps will defeat the wraith. But I read somewhere recently, either on Malozzi's blog or in a con report, that one of the show runners answered a question about wraith dietary habits by saying that they could feed on animals but humans were more nutritionally complete. That's a different framing of what would constitute an ethical response to the threat. Should we attempt to change the wraith's dietary preferences or just find a way to rid Pegasus of them all?

I do so hope that someone on Atlantis has read Lichtenberg's Sime/Gen series.
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:55 am (UTC)(link)
I do so hope that someone on Atlantis has read Lichtenberg's Sime/Gen series.

I haven't! Tell me more.

I did not expect the Wallace solution to the problem at all, though the "what do we feed the Wraith?" problem actually occurred to me for the first time at approximately the point where they brought "Todd" through the gate -- so it made me giggle, a few minutes later, when it became a plot point! But, actually, it casts their decision to hold him prisoner in an even darker light, because what do they do with him now? Apparently, he can last a couple of weeks without food (depending on how long they've had him), which means they're either going to have to let him go or let him starve to death ... unless they keep getting convenient villains to feed him. *g*

And yeah, I do think that John and Rodney both have seemed more mature the last couple of episodes, more aware of the consequences of their actions. I think it's quite possible that John's weeks in charge of Atlantis did change him, though it only comes out in certain situations -- he's more willing to entertain different sorts of solutions than he would have been a year ago. As he said to Carter in Doppelganger, "Usually I just shoot the bad guys" ... and this echoes his comment in "Tao" that killing scary monsters "is what I do". It may be that he's come to see himself as a certain kind of guy and has trouble changing that mental image, even if it's wrong. He doesn't want to be "the Man" (re: First Strike), the person in charge; he'd rather be the guy who goes out and kills things when he's ordered to do it, and the rest of the time hangs out watching cheesy movies or playing chess. But that's actually not who he is -- well, it's certainly part of it, but not really his strongest part or his best part, even if it's how he defines himself in his head.

[identity profile] derry667.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:13 am (UTC)(link)
I haven't read a dozen and one reviews, I've just read yours (and I've already put my own thoughts on the ep down on paper..er, cyberspace... whatever).

Just gonna say a resounding YES to your meta on John's darkness in this ep. What he did was chilling, but perfectly in character for what we've seen of Sheppard to date. And one thing that I didn't really pick up until you mentioned it - that Wallace's ruthless actions to save his daughter really are not unlike what John has shown himself capable of. In fact, the sacrificing himself when it'd all gone pear-shaped and giving his life will save someone else's - THAT'S very Sheppardesque too. Maybe John knew exactly how to manipulate Wallace because he could identify with his way of thinking. It's something that I hadn't really considered before, but adds yet another "wow" to an ep that has already impressed the hell out of me!
ext_1981: (BH-Mitchell George hospital)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:08 am (UTC)(link)
Heh, I just responded to your post before coming over here to answer comments!

The similarities between Wallace and John didn't really strike me until I was thinking about John's situation after finishing the episode, but it really hit me then. What Wallace did and what John did were astonishingly similar -- in fact, John's actions were actually, in a way, worse because Wallace didn't mean to cause Jeannie's death, where John had the explicit aim of causing Wallace's. And considering some of the things that the Atlantis expedition has been party to in the past, it's not difficult to imagine that John is, in part, pushing Wallace to do what he feels he ought to do in that situation.

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[identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:21 am (UTC)(link)
[livejournal.com profile] gnine said the same thing, that this wasn't John giving up his life but selling his soul. And. Yow.

What gets me is not only John's darkness about how far he was willing to go - farther than this; a lot farther, if he had to. If there had been no willing, easy victim...? Maybe himself, I think, but then...Sheppard's like Dean Winchester, except he's got a family of three instead of one, and so he can't so easily throw his life away. He will if he has to, but the others need him too, so...

But what really gets me is John's possessiveness, that this should be Rodney's choice, Rodney's life, but, "I can't. His "I'm sorry" to Rodney is so sincere, because he almost wants to be able to give Rodney that chance, but it's not an option. (and I love how John phrases it, "an invaluable member of my team" - because this should be about the Atlantis mission, and Dr. McKay is pretty dang invaluable; but Sheppard's team is what he has responsibility for, and what he ultimately cares about. Though I do wonder about Rodney's "chain of command" line - Rodney usually isn't under Sheppard, except they are off-world? And Sheppard apparently did have the power to lock him out of the lab...or else was paying/otherwise arranging that lockdown for the Wraith's snack-time...one wonders if McKay could have gotten permission from Carter over Sheppard's head? So John had to put things right right quick...)

And the final scene, oh, yes...Rodney is so clumsy in his feelings, but at least he can talk about them (unlike certain lt. colonels), and it's just what Sheppard needs, acknowledgment so he knows for certain Rodney understands (and oh, the way John looks at him there - he rarely maintains eye contact that long; he needs Rodney's understanding and absolution so badly) and then put it away. I don't think it'd be quite over - in the show it likely is, but it's something that should haunt them. But they're on the road to recovery.

ETA: Regarding Sheppard being willing to go as far as Wallace, it begs the question, that if John had tried something similar, and failed as completely, would John have as willingly gone to the Wraith? I really wonder...I did feel that some of what John did, he did out of a sense of justice (Sheppard does put his personal beliefs above any system) and if that justice applied to him....his guilt at the end makes me think he would have done so, and that's maybe the only reason he can forgive himself...
ext_1981: (Default)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:16 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, it fascinated me how John turned it around, taking the decision out of Rodney's hands (a decision which really should, by rights, belong to Rodney) and made it his own problem -- I think he was being very honest there, because the problem is simply that he can't bring himself to let Rodney sacrifice himself. (As you explored in your tag!)

Though I do wonder about Rodney's "chain of command" line - Rodney usually isn't under Sheppard, except they are off-world?

Well, remember in Adrift, John played the chain-of-command card as well. Technically, in Atlantis's informal hierarchy, he does outrank Rodney; it's just that he never, or almost never, exercises that authority. And it's a very loose authority that carries no weight on Earth. (And yet Rodney did back down. From the look of things, he still tried to go through with it behind John's back -- but he didn't challenge John directly, kind of the same way he went behind his back in Adrift.)

if John had tried something similar, and failed as completely, would John have as willingly gone to the Wraith? I really wonder...I did feel that some of what John did, he did out of a sense of justice (Sheppard does put his personal beliefs above any system) and if that justice applied to him....his guilt at the end makes me think he would have done so, and that's maybe the only reason he can forgive himself...

Also explored in your tag, which perhaps makes meta redundant at this point. *g* But, yeah, I am inclined to agree. It's interesting to envision John in that position -- if he'd risked everything for Rodney and Ronon and Teyla, and then they died anyway and the chain of events that he'd set in motion was likely to cause an innocent person's death, I think he would try to rectify that even if it meant his own death. To some extent, he is imposing his own moral code on Wallace -- he wants Wallace to do what John would consider honorable for himself in that situation.

And I agree very much with this: "Sheppard does put his personal beliefs above any system." It's actually one of his most attractive traits to me, because he doesn't allow the military or any other agency to dictate his value system. But this episode definitely displayed the dark side of that free-thinking quality. As loose as O'Neill sometimes plays things, I can't really see him doing that; it's just too huge a step for him to take. But John, for all that he's career military, doesn't think like a military officer.
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[identity profile] kimberlyfdr.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:31 am (UTC)(link)
I posted my commentary right after the episode aired. I cannot believe how AWESOME this episode was. Jeannie rocks, Rodney's emotional (and he said JOHN) and John's just...he can create so much emotion in just two words and he plays dirty, but he does it because he loves Rodney and he cannot let him put himself in danger.
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:20 am (UTC)(link)
Wasn't it wonderful? It's admittedly a little scary to see how far John would go for one of his people, but there's no denying the depth of his love and loyalty.

[identity profile] parisntripfan.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 03:48 am (UTC)(link)
I pretty much agree with everything you said.

I really agree one of the reasons for John's actions was that as far he was concerned it was Wallace's fault - not Rodney's - that they were in this mess and that if someone was going to sacrifice himself up it should be Wallace. I loved when he said to Wallace that Rodney was blaming himself for Jeannie's life being in danger, but they both knew that wasn't true. It was a nice touch and I was glad that someone said it - even if they didn't say it Rodney.

I am not sure John would go as far as Wallace did - in that I can't see him going after people who were for all intents and purposes innocent victims. Rodney and Jeannie were in to no way responsible for what happened to Sharron. They were not the ones who injected her with the nanites. That was Wallace's doing. Not their's. As dark as some of John's choices have been he has never knowing gone after people not is some responsible for the choices they made.

And I did love Rodney calling John by his first name. And I like how they seem to using it. Rodney seem to use when he wants to connect to John - his friend instead of "Sheppard" the military commander of Atlantis and somewhat Kirk like figure who his always after him to do it faster, faster. (I was going to say "on his ass" but that could be taken way to literally by some parts of the fandom)
ext_1981: (BH-Mitchell George hospital)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:27 am (UTC)(link)
I am not sure John would go as far as Wallace did - in that I can't see him going after people who were for all intents and purposes innocent victims. Rodney and Jeannie were in to no way responsible for what happened to Sharron. They were not the ones who injected her with the nanites. That was Wallace's doing. Not their's. As dark as some of John's choices have been he has never knowing gone after people not is some responsible for the choices they made.

I'm ... unsure. I never would have believed that John was capable of doing what he did in this episode, either. And the way he did it, premeditated, with so little emotion on his face ... I think that prior to this episode, there were certain lines I didn't believe he'd cross, but after this episode, I'm pretty sure that, given sufficient motivation, there are no lines he wouldn't cross. It might kill him inside, but ... if Rodney or one of the others were dying, and the one person who could save them was withholding their help, what might he do to put pressure on them? Once upon a time, I would have said he wouldn't threaten an innocent, but I'm really not so sure now.

And I did love Rodney calling John by his first name. And I like how they seem to using it. Rodney seem to use when he wants to connect to John - his friend instead of "Sheppard" the military commander of Atlantis and somewhat Kirk like figure

It's definitely something that he uses to invoke the emotional connection between them. I can't really tell if it's heartfelt or if it's consciously manipulative; one might say Rodney doesn't have that kind of subtlety, but I think he might. The feeling is real, though.

[identity profile] tipper-green.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
Yes -- you articulated my exact feelings better than I did last night. Everything you've said - ditto.

[identity profile] tipper-green.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry -- one more thought.

I was pondering over the other three members of John's team, and whether Ronon and Teyla would go as far as John did in this ep. I think, for Ronon, the answer is obvious -- yes. He would. I've not doubt about that. That being said, I think there was a very clear reason Ronon was not in that room when the Wraith killed Wallace. John didn't want Ronon being a part of what he did, and while I think Ronon would kill for his friends...I'm not sure his hatred of the Wraith might not be stronger. It would be really interesting to see Ronon put in a situation where he might actually have to help a Wraith in order to save one of his team.

On Teyla, before Missing, I don't think she would have gone this far. She's the voice of reason, the one who has talked both men down before. But now...there was something very dark about her attitude at the end of that ep. The way she couldn't look at John. John and Ronon had no one before Atlantis, but she always had the people of Athos. Now...I have to wonder how far she will go to get them back. They're her family, as much as John, Ronon and Rodney...

Anyway, I'm just thinking about this still. Don't mind me. :)
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:34 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with your thoughts on the other two. Ronon -- I'm pretty sure we already know how far Ronon would go, and the answer is "pretty damn far". In fact, while you're right about Ronon's feelings on the Wraith, I don't think he'd have any problems with Wallace's death aside from the mechanism of his death. I think Ronon has a fairly black-and-white view of justice, and as defensive as he is of his family, and actually of non-combatants in general, I doubt if he'd have the slightest bit of sympathy for Wallace. Ronon is all about the frontier justice!

Interesting thoughts on Teyla. It's going to be interesting seeing how much she's willing to do to get her people back. Mallozzi's hinted that this season will be dark, and I wonder if Teyla's character is going to be seeing some of that darkness.

I sometimes think of Rodney as being the emotional heart of the team. As dorky as it sounds, Rodney's greatest strength is his ability to love; he's not a warrior at heart (in fact, I think a number of episodes have demonstrated that he's incredibly non-violent, even more so than some of the more overtly empathetic characters like Carson), but he can be, when his loved ones are threatened.

[identity profile] spike21.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 04:51 am (UTC)(link)
oooh! some excellent thoughts about John and his darkness -- his single-minded devotion -- which is something that seems inherent to the character (back, at least, to the rescue of Holland at the cost of so much.) I wonder how hard Gero had to pitch the part where they *didn't* gloss over it at the end? Anyway, I hope the ep inspires lots of fic.
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:36 am (UTC)(link)
Yes ... his loyalty goes deep, and has been a part of him for a very long time. If Gero got that part in there by fighting for it, I'm so glad he did; without it, I think the episode would have been another "Misbegotten" -- dark themes, but disturbingly little aftermath for them.

[identity profile] jackfan2.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 05:24 am (UTC)(link)
I think I'm the only SGA fan I know that DIDN'T get to see this episode Friday night!!! Judging by the reactions I'm reading, it was a hell of an episode for a season that I've been less than impressed with.

Promise, I didn't miss it on purpose- Thursday Verison was installing our new HiDef Digital TV service and it comes with a new DVR we aren't accustomed to. It crashed later on Friday and the soonest someone could get out was today. Ugh. It works NOW, though.. ugh, again, ugh.

I feel old. Change is getting harder and harder to deal with. The new TV system is just so... different.

I'm glad that on DEC 24 there will be an all day SGA-athon on SciFi. I belive this is one of the eps that will air too, so I guess I'll just catch it then.

I'm mainly interested to see the sacrificial/dark side of John that everyone is going on about in this ep. I wasn't expecting as much of John in this episode as all those who've seen it are talking about. Wow.. Jeeeze, I'm all kinds of curious. Might have to just break down and order this ep from Amazon's UnBox viewing system (like iTunes, but I think it's better). Damn. Can't believe I missed this one.
ext_1981: (SGA-dorks)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:38 am (UTC)(link)
This is honestly one of the best Sheppard episodes so far; at least I thought so, even if some of the things revealed about him in the episode were darker than I was expecting. I feel like my understanding of his character grew and changed a lot.

[identity profile] mcalex22.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 06:20 am (UTC)(link)
I was trolling your LJ last night Sydney time to see if you'd written anything up but nada till this afternoon, when I saw Jo's post about your post!

I honestly wanted to read your thoughts mainly because you have a way of putting things down better. Or closer to what I may think.

I agree with you on a lot of points. I really expected a lighter episode with squeeful moments and this blew me away. As soon as Rodney started talking about sacrificing himself, I went all suspicious and I thought, "They can't go there can they?"

And I love how it played out and what you said about the last scene is spot on for me because I think they both needed that sense of normality. In a sense, I couldn't see John sharing this with anyone else but Rodney (and I'm not saying this from a slash perspective) - but I think that Rodney and him needed each other at the end there because they both understood the price.

I've been blown away by the characterisation of John this season - I really love all these little bits they're exploring and this darker side. As you said, we haven't seen a darker side till now, or rather, how far we can push him. He's still essentially John and he'd go to great lengths to protect his friends and family. Anything...

I was stunned and in awe of the ep and I thought a lot about it after the ep ended. Re-watching the scene between John and Rodney when Rodney announces his intention to be wraith fodder and then when Rodney comes to John's room - I really loved the way the actors played it.

I probably can't add much more sense to what you said except that I do browse your lj and I know Jo speaks highly of you (hee, I always tell her how much I enjoy your writing anyway!)...

Oh and on another side issue, I saw one of your previous posts last night (when I was trolling) and completely agreed that yes, Flanigan does look more "relaxed" in cons and in questions with fans. I think he just responds in his dry sense of humour manner. He was very talkative and responsive in Australia and quite unlike the man I'd read about from years ago when he first hit the con circuit! :D
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:46 am (UTC)(link)
I saw your mention of checking out my journal in Jo's thread. *g* It's a small world, on the Internet at least ...

I was really amazed at how far they went, too. I agree with you about John's characterization this season; I really believe that this season is doing for Sheppard what last season did for McKay. (Didn't like Travelers, but hey, a lot of people did. And both Doppelganger and this one were really incredible Sheppard episodes.)

I think this episode has done a lot to change how I see Sheppard -- his essence, so to speak. I never really believed in the "darkness" that other people see in him, but after this episode, I do, and it's changed the way that I view some of the earlier episodes (especially "Home"). I wonder if being in the Pegasus Galaxy, and particularly losing the number of people that he's lost, has helped to bring out that side of him -- he's become so devoted to his remaining "family" that he's willing to do anything not to lose them. Kind of scary to contemplate how far he might go. Now that I've discovered that darker side of him, I'm toying with various story ideas that explore it, and see how far it's possible to push him.
amalthia: (Default)

[personal profile] amalthia 2007-12-02 06:46 am (UTC)(link)
loved your post.
ext_1981: (SGA-dorks)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:46 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you!
ext_2160: SGA John & Rodney (Default)

[identity profile] winter-elf.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 08:28 am (UTC)(link)
I wish I could write such wordy reviews. Mine for this episode was basically *gasp*.

Totally agree. I also, when Rodney mentioned wanting to sacrifice himself, I totally thought John would offer himself instead (or go down to the wraith immediately before Rodney got a chance.) I didn't immediately think of Wallace. SMART to lock Rodney out (actually, probably locked everyone out really). Not only that, but Rodney KNEW he would, so he actually went and swiped someone else's card.

As for the dark aspect. I'd realized that at the Storm/Eye, as well as Misbegotten. Yea, heat of the moment as some people point out, but still, extremely dark decisions to make. John is intelligent and thinks quickly, given a few seconds or minutes, I think it would have been the same result.

And the final bit between John and Rodney. OMG. Words can't explain it. Rodeny just walking into John's room. You stated it exactly. Yea, John would do anything.

BTW - which episodes/bits convinced you on the trust and touch issue with John in Season 3?
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 07:53 am (UTC)(link)
"Gasp" was pretty much my initial reaction, too. *g*

I think "Home" is actually one of the darkest episodes for John prior to this season -- or maybe the episode that showed off that side of him the most. In Storm and Misbegotten, he's making snap decisions under threat of impending death; as you point out, he *does* think quickly under pressure, but I don't think his reactions are really out of proportion for the situation. In Home, though, his paranoia and particularly the way that he proves "Mitch" is a fake by shooting him, with that calm expression -- yeah, I shoulda twigged to it then.

which episodes/bits convinced you on the trust and touch issue with John in Season 3?

That scene with Teyla in Sateda was where it really clicked. There were a few other little places that drove it home -- like the final scene of Phantoms, where Teyla asked him if Holland made it and his closed-off response to that. As I get more familiar with JF's acting skills, I'm realizing more and more that the places where Sheppard doesn't have much change of facial expression are there on purpose -- it's not that JF can't emote, it's that he doesn't emote under certain circumstances, so then it's interesting to look at what those circumstances have in common. His absolute refusal to admit that Rodney's dying in Tao is another of those moments.

[identity profile] with-apostrophe.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 10:04 am (UTC)(link)
I was really wondering what you'd make of this having had the dark!john conversation with you in the past. It always rang true in my opinion, though not as a psychopath - that's fans taking it too far.

I thought that last scene was excatly right. Rodney wouldn't push Sheppard too much - Rodney is a guy after all, for all the fanon portrayals as a 14 year old girl and he wouldn't push it. Also them both deflecting and going off to eat is precisely what I'd expect - Sheppard deals with avoidance and compartmentalisation, and (as we saw here) rewriting history if he has to. Part of Rodney's dealing is food...

ETA: The above paragraph is not in reposnse to anything you wrote, just a general comment as I've been thinking about it, and seeing other fan's reactions.

An excellent episode Mr Gero.
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 08:02 am (UTC)(link)
Heh, yeah -- the Psychopath!John characterization is along the lines of Abused!Woobie!Rodney ... fans taking things too far. And I'd always thought that Dark!John -- the John who tortures or kills to save his team or in revenge for their deaths -- was a fannish exaggeration too. I'm pretty much convinced of the opposite now.

And yes, the final scene read just right to me. I've seen people who criticized it for being too cheerful for the situation, but the characters are obviously doing it on purpose -- I think it's amply evident from Sheppard's reaction when Rodney asks him if he wants to get something to eat that he's not at all hungry, but he needs that little hint of normalcy, needs to know that Rodney's not going to treat him any differently.

[identity profile] trystings.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 10:10 am (UTC)(link)
Everything, everything you said in your post, I wrote down myself (and didn't post yet, but I have drafts to prove it, although now I'll refer every one to you, you're much better at this than I am). I watched it three times and didn't start to appreciate it until the second time, because things were happening so fast. Oh man, I can't wait for the missing-scenes fics for this episode. Sheppard and Ronon getting dressed as Man in Black (the amount of extra material for the AU fanvids alone! - Sheppard as FBI agent!), the drive to Jeannie's house, John with Madison. And I love how David Hewlett and his sister play off each other. David is so comfortable around her. And by the time I was getting juuuust this wee bit annnoyed about the lack of Sheppard in the episode, come the final ten minutes and I was BLOWN off my couch. Because what John did .. OMG. I've read about Dark!John in numerous fics but this is the first time I've seen it. First the scene with John and Rodney (and Rodney calls him "John" for the second time, and I know he probably does all the time, but it's still so emotionally charged when we hear Rodney calling him by his first name) and John's refusal to let Rodney sacrifice himself (and it's Adrift all over again, with Rodney trying to save a loved one and John not letting him, because Rodney is more important to him than anyone else) and then the scene with Wallace. And throughout the episode, Wallace was the one icky detail, never getting it quite right, but that final scene rocked. Sheppard convinced me, with that flat voice and that expressionless face. The amount of depth that has been put in to Sheppard's character is amazing. Each time he has to go just this tiny bit further to save his people and you can tell it's wearing on him (I know people change in three years, but compared to this season, John looked like a BABY when he started out in Rising) And the final scene in John's room was just perfection. I love this show.

Oops, got a bit carried away, this is the longest comment I've ever posted. :D
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 08:10 am (UTC)(link)
I love long comments, so don't hold yourself back on my account. *g*

I've read about Dark!John in numerous fics but this is the first time I've seen it.

Exactly! But I see it now, oh wow, do I see it. I was glued to my screen during the last ten minutes. And I'm absolutely with you on how well they've been developing Sheppard. Actually, I'd say that they're doing for Sheppard this season what they did for McKay last season; neither season has been particularly light on either character, but Rodney got a lot of in-depth development last season, and Sheppard's been getting that this season. As I love both characters, I'm pretty much in fangirl heaven. *squees quietly*

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[identity profile] springwoof.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 01:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm agreeing with [livejournal.com profile] susnn about the similarities to stories where the disgraced gentleman is taken to the library, given a drink and a weapon, and the silence in which to make amends in the way that causes the least harm to others. While I agree with your analysis, there was also that element of John allowing Wallace to "make it right" and "do the honorable thing". Did he manipulate him? yes, of course. but there was that element of "you messed up, this is how you can fix it" and "this is how you can regain your honor" to it--something that John might want, if he were in the same circumstances....

[identity profile] nullabona.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 02:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Great observations! When watching that scene I was kinda thinking about Mark Antony falling on his sword or whatever….

[identity profile] archaeodancer.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 02:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I felt like I needed to read a post like this, and I knew Friendshipper would write it. I can't wait to watch it again with all this stuff in mind, because the squeeful bit were great, but the dark bits were SO DARK that I think it just really threw me a bit. Although THANK GOD that they did actually deal with them this time, if they hadn't I don't think I could have gone back to it.

I wish they had mentioned Teyla, I certainly missed her, and I hope that they haven't glossed over her telling the team.

I also wish that infecting Jeannie had made more sense in a plot way - if she had a better grasp of nanite coding, he should logically have infected Rodney, not Jeannie, who was already willing to help, but then just ended up needing rescued.

And I'm not sure about the treatment of Ronon of late either - he ISN'T stupid.

And yet I do have a lot of love for this episode, and this season (though they wern't kidding when they said that it would be darker than previous ones!)

Springwoof - this is just what I got to thinking after reading this post. It certainly makes it sit a little bit easier with me if it is the case, because judge, jury and executioner!John is really, really scary.
ext_1981: (SGA-dorks)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 08:23 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks! Yeah, in the past I've disliked some of the darker eps (Misbegotten comes to mind) because they never really addressed the heroes' more questionable choices. Here, they did that, and did it well. I really appreciated it.

I do wish Teyla had at least been referenced, but I'm holding out hope that we'll get to see the "big reveal" of the baby storyline onscreen. They've drawn out that part of the plot for long enough that I'm hoping it's building up to something fairly big. And yeah ... the jokes at Ronon's expense are getting a bit old, although we did get to see him being smart and resourceful in Tabula Rasa, so that makes up for it a little bit.

A flawed episode, very dark, but IMHO, very good. (And dark Sheppard is very scary!)

[identity profile] patk.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 02:29 pm (UTC)(link)
>>reality of losing a loved one (*cough*Rodney*cough*)

*pats Friendshipper on her back* There, there, better? *g*

Oh, I agree with a lot of what you said and I'm still *wow*-ing over this episode as well. :-) But on some things I have to disagree, at least a little. ;-)

>>But what makes it trickier yet is that what motivated Wallace is exactly what motivates John.

Yes. And I think there are a lot of parallels between their characters. They're both basically good guys who would do a lot to save their loved ones.

>>But, you know, ... to come up with a solution.<<

And this is one of the things where I'm not so sure you're right. We still have to see a John who actively puts a completely innocent person in mortal danger for his own personal goals. For the "greater good", Atlantis for example ... *uhm* yes, *squints* could happen. But the way Wallace did it? "Fix this or they both die" - said *afterwards* he injected Jeannie with what he knew perfectly well would kill her if Rodney wouldn't be able to come up with a solution. No. Wallace accepted that he practically would commit the murder of an absolute innocent woman in case Rodney would fail in his efforts.

I can see Sheppard being desperate enough to threaten to do something like this and even bluff it by injecting something harmless instead of something truly lethal but I don't actually see him doing it with the real thing. And *that's* the difference I see between Wallace and John.

>>Especially in light of this episode, isn't that a "John" thing to do?

No, I don't think so. As I said, I can see it happen almost the way it happened with Wallace, but where Wallace hadn't any qualms to *really* put Jeannie in lethal danger in case Rodeny fails, I think Sheppard would not go this far with an innocent one. Wallace didn't care about Jeannie living or dying at this moment but I think Sheppard in Wallace shoes would still care about the life of his innocent hostage and would draw the line there. As I said, I can see him faking it, bluffing it to apply pressure, but not actually going through with the real thing.

>>Well -- that, and Wallace never set out to kill anybody.

"Killing" might not have been his goal but he knew perfectly well that the nanites he injected Jeannie would kill her if Rodney wouldn't be able to fix it. Wallace might not have wanted to see Jeannie death, why should he, but he simply didn't care about Jeannie's death in case of Rodney failing. In my book, that comes pretty close to "set out to kill".

>>John did

See, personally I doubt that John would have forced even Wallace with a gun to his head to go to Todd and serve as Wraith-fodder.

Earlier I said that I see a lot of parallels between John's and Wallace's character and I think John picked up on this as well. I think he knew that, if he would have done something like Wallace did, he would feel desperately guilty (and since Travelers we know that John *is* familiar with feelings of guilt, let alone the whole "we're at fault that the Pegasus-people are in danger, so *we* are the ones who have to fix it"-spiel) and he pictured Wallace feeling equally guilty. All John had to do (and all he did) was, saying things, talking to wallace in a way he knew would have worked on himself too. He fed Wallace's feelings of guilt in the same way he knew would affect himself. He addressed the decent part in Wallace's character, turned it against Wallace, used it against Wallace to manipulate him into a decision of which he knew he would made himself as well if he had been in Wallace's shoes and if he had been approached the way he did with Wallace.
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 08:43 am (UTC)(link)
I can see Sheppard being desperate enough to threaten to do something like this and even bluff it by injecting something harmless instead of something truly lethal but I don't actually see him doing it with the real thing.

Yeah ... it's still hard for me to imagine Sheppard harming a completely innocent person, but y'know -- after this episode, I'm a lot more willing to believe in much darker fanfic characterizations of him than I've been willing to believe in the past. I'll put it this way -- before this episode, I never would have believed it at all, and I've stopped reading stories that had him doing similar things. But, after? I can now be convinced. A writer is still going to have to work to convince me, but I'm not going to immediately discount the possibility.

"Killing" might not have been his goal but he knew perfectly well that the nanites he injected Jeannie would kill her if Rodney wouldn't be able to fix it. Wallace might not have wanted to see Jeannie death, why should he, but he simply didn't care about Jeannie's death in case of Rodney failing.

But Rodney was also willing to let Wallace's daughter die. Wallace's methods were unethical from the get-go -- if he'd gone directly to Jeannie rather than using force, he'd probably have gotten willing cooperation -- but Rodney was perfectly willing to leave without even trying. In a way, Rodney forced Wallace's hand by refusing to help him voluntarily.

Talking to my sister tonight, we were wondering why he didn't bluff and merely pretend to inject her. Perhaps he thought that Rodney would figure out it was a bluff, or maybe it just didn't occur to him. The second half of the show would certainly have been different if he'd only been faking!

What makes this episode so brilliant, I think, is that there are so many levels of moral ambiguity. Wallace wasn't evil; he was a scared man trying to save his daughter. John's actions were not those of a hero, but they were those of a devoted and equally terrified man trying to save someone he loves ... by any means necessary.

One of the above commenters compared John's situation here to his refusal in "Adrift" to give Rodney permission to activate the nanites because he wouldn't want to be re-animated by nanites, so he doesn't believe Elizabeth would be. I think it's a valid comparison and there might be something similar going on here -- he is unable to conceive of Wallace doing anything other than the "honorable" thing and turning himself over to the Wraith.

See, personally I doubt that John would have forced even Wallace with a gun to his head to go to Todd and serve as Wraith-fodder.

One interesting thing about not having seen the actual feeding is that we have no idea if he did or not.

The scene cuts straight from John showing the pictures to Wallace, to Wallace's body being carried out. There's no telling what happened in the intervening scenes -- and again, part of the brilliance of the episode is that we just don't know, any more than Rodney does. John might have threatened and bullied Wallace, or he might have simply led him to the conclusion that he wanted him to make.

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[identity profile] patk.livejournal.com 2007-12-02 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that was how it was so easy for him to figure out how to approach Wallace. I think he sensed the similarities between them, could vividly imagine how Wallace felt 'cause it was pretty similar to how he himself would have felt (and I mean both, Wallace's desperate actions to save his daughter as well as Wallace's feelings of guilt afterwards). What John did was undoubtedly a very dark thing to do and I appreciate that the show took the time to show us that he didn't take it easy and had big, big problems with what he had done. But at the same time, it shows me that this was as far as he was ready to go. If you look at Sheppard's face at the end of the ep, you see how hard a time he has with what he has done. I think he wouldn't have tried to use physical force, he needed that last shred of knowledge that "in the end, it was Wallace's decision" even if he did all he could to manipulate him into making it. No doubt that Sheppard *thought* about forcing Wallace if he wouldn't come to the desired decision but I have also no doubt that he didn't think it *through* to an already made decision for this case but preferred to delay it to a time *if* it would happen.

Basically John did just one thing: he manipulated the man into taking responsibility for solving the situation he himself had created. The happenings were the man's (Wallace is it, right?) fault, the result of his actions and mistakes, and even if he didn't want *this* result, it *was* the result of his doings.

I think it's John's perfect knowledge about the consequences of volunteering that make his action seem so shocking, not the action itself. John knows, if the man does "the right thing - taking responsibility for the result of my actions", he's going to die a painful and cruel death to make up for his deeds and John goes in, prepared to get exactly this result.

If John had used the exactly same tactics to talk the man into spending 5 Million Dollars for a cure (if there had been one) everybody would have cheered him on and would have thought that John did the right thing and would have applauded him for it.

>>John's not a psychopath; ... John sold his soul to save Rodney. <<

I pretty much agree with this. :-) And that's *why* I think that was as far as he would have gone. I sincerely doubt that going farther would have been an option that would have left enough of him to keep going on with his life in a normal way, 'cause he just understood Wallace's motivations far to well. This wasn't a case of John thinking "you deserve to die for what you did" he wasn't seeking revenge or looking for justice, but rather "I understand you but now it's a choice between you taking responsibility and make up for your mistake or Rodney's life in exchange for Jeannie's *because* of your mistake".

There's a difference between killing someone to safe a life in the heat of a battle, talking someone into shouldering the deathly consequences of their own actions/mistakes and coldly *execute* someone (whose motivations you can understand just all too well) actively if he refuses to do what you want him to do.

The first two things are things John would do and actually has done, the third thing is basically what Wallace did when he injected Jeannie with the nanites to force Rodney, even if he hoped Rodney *would* find a solution.
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 08:59 am (UTC)(link)
Answered the previous comment without reading this one *g*, but I see what you mean about the moral difference between using physical force and moral persuasion. (I don't think it's as much of a difference as John might think -- to use a possibly-spurious comparison, people have been as horribly messed up from emotional abuse as from physical abuse, if not more so. Holding a gun to someone's head vs. convincing them that they want to kill themselves is a matter of degree, no more. In fact, to me, the latter is slightly more chilling than the former; there is nothing more terrifying than a prisoner who needs no bars because he has been convinced that he doesn't want to be free.)

However, I can see what you mean about John having placed that marker as his line between "acceptable force" and "unacceptable force". However, after this episode I still believe that he would cross that line if he had to.

If John had used the exactly same tactics to talk the man into spending 5 Million Dollars for a cure (if there had been one) everybody would have cheered him on and would have thought that John did the right thing and would have applauded him for it.

I don't think the comparison holds, because the severity of the outcome is at issue as much as the methods. If the objective is a person's death, I'm not sure how much the method really matters -- whether John held him down and forced him, or blackmailed him, or paid him off, or talked him into it. John walked into that room planning, with premeditation, to make Wallace dead, and regardless of his reasons, that chills me. I can understand why John did it and why he feels it was justified, but it still chills me.

There's a difference between killing someone to safe a life in the heat of a battle, talking someone into shouldering the deathly consequences of their own actions/mistakes and coldly *execute* someone (whose motivations you can understand just all too well) actively if he refuses to do what you want him to do.

See, given the specific circumstances in the episode, I don't really see all that much difference between the last two. Like I said before, it's more a matter of degree than kind. I suppose there's no way to really know how far John would have gone because we didn't see it. However, I don't really see that much qualitative difference between convincing someone that they want to follow your orders by manipulating their emotional buttons, and using physical force ... especially when they're in a broken, easily suggestible state anyway (which is how Wallace looked to me, especially towards the end). It may be that John can rationalize it to himself more easily if he does the former than the latter, but that's what it is -- rationalization. And John may have decided that Wallace deserves to die for his actions, and appointed himself executioner, but that doesn't make it right, even if he did it to save Rodney and Jeannie. John took Wallace and broke him in order to get him to do what John felt he ought to do, and whether or not Wallace deserved it, it's a downright scary thing that he's capable of that.

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leesa_perrie: two cheetahs facing camera and cuddling (Sexy Czech)

[personal profile] leesa_perrie 2007-12-02 04:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't had time to read the comments here - been too busy reading the comments on Joe M's blog - so I'm sorry if I repeat anything already said.

This was wow - the opening teaser has me laughing, the way Radek is the only one to push Rodney, the way he's the one who rushes out, with the other scientists following his lead - and Rodney's been staring at the white board for 3 hours rather than admit he's stuck!!! (Though those laptops must have some major batteries in them to be able to work for 10 hours with no power leads...! Or did they keep switching them when they ran down?!)

I loved the angst in the episode, the darkness as well - this is *so* how I see John and your analysis is spot on (and saves me having to do the same!).

I love the sibling banter - I know some people (on Joe's blog) have said Jeannie was harsh on Rodney - especially the bit about Katie and Rodney's looks etc - but you have to remember that she is pissed with him at that point! Besides, it makes sense to me that Jeannie isn't all sunshine and roses - Rodney isn't and they had the same parents etc, so it fits that she can be a bit mean at times. And anyway, she was angry.

I'm going to have to watch it again soon, I haven't had time to absorb it all. Yeah, there were a few plot holes, but I'm willing to overlook them for such a great angst-fest.

And do you think that Sheppard had a 'talk' with Ronon about 'not hitting, shooting, dismembering or otherwise upsetting' anyone at the SGC? I mean, Walter not only bored him silly, he actually reaches out and stops Ronon from *eating* at one point!! And does Walter have no fear?! Has he become immune to threatening but on their side aliens because of Teal'c?!! Or perhaps he has a death wish...!

Anyway, I loved this episode and am still squeeing even now...!

Oh, and about Wallace, someone on Joe's blog mentioned that if Jeannie had died, then along with his other crimes, there's a good chance he would have been executed anyway and John was merely offering another option to the guy... Just a thought.

Oh, oh, and how cute that Rodney was willing to give his life to save his sister but has to be prodded into saying that he loves her...!! That's just *so* like him - actions are easier than words when showing how much he cares!
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 09:08 am (UTC)(link)
The bit with Zelenka was just adorable! He only got one scene, but it was a great scene!

... and, yeah, you'd think that after 10+ years of dealing with aliens (and fairly aggressive aliens, at that), Walter would have developed a keener instinct for self-preservation! On the other hand, as you point out, most of his experience has probably been with Teal'c, so maybe huge glowering warrior-aliens just don't have much effect on him anymore ...

I didn't think Jeannie was too harsh on Rodney at all! I mean, yeah, it's not like he did anything on purpose, but she was scared and upset and it's certainly true that if it hadn't been for Rodney, she'd still be living her happy suburban-mom existence with nary a kidnapper or nanite in sight. So, yeah, I don't blame her for lashing out; it's not as if Rodney is a paragon of restraint, after all. *g*

I really don't think Wallace's crimes were severe enough to warrant execution, at least not under the US legal system. I don't think you can be executed for anything short of Murder 1 (premeditated, cold-blooded murder) and even then, it usually has to be especially brutal. Nothing that he did would warrant that. On the other hand, it's hard to say what the SGC would actually have done with him; they couldn't exactly try him in a regular court, because of the secrecy thing. How would they even describe his crime? And how would they keep him from telling the whole story? It's possible that the SGC looked the other way because John was conveniently removing a very thorny problem for them while keeping their own hands clean...
aelfgyfu_mead: Aelfgyfu as a South Park-style cartoon (Default)

[personal profile] aelfgyfu_mead 2007-12-02 04:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Tremendous acting by Joe Flanigan and David Hewlett, yes.

The plot holes bothered me a lot more than they did you, I'm afraid; I've posted my own review so you can read at length if you want, but partly I was just ticked that a Jeannie episode got all dark and unhappy on us. Yes, it's shallow of me, but I was ready for one thing, and I got quite another.

I felt like the plot holes you mention were really sloppy, a sign of rushed writing to get us to the crux, those last fifteen minutes. But I felt robbed because of the way we got there. And I see a lot more consideration in your discussion here (and the one by [livejournal.com profile] abyssinia4007 of the moral issues than we'll ever get out of the show. Of course, we have a lot more time and space. Still, I think they've got two superb stars, and the writing isn't fully doing them justice (and sometimes insults our intelligence! Has Barrett been taking stupid pills? Do they think we have, that we won't notice all these problems?).
ext_1981: (Wiseguy-Vinnie moodlit)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-12-03 09:12 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I was bugged by the plot holes. I guess in the end, I enjoyed the emotional parts of the episode enough to overlook them -- and I enjoyed the earlier parts of the episode a lot more on re-watch, knowing the plot holes were coming and being prepared for them.

I just can't take SGA too seriously. It's not a show that lends itself to being taken seriously. Like [livejournal.com profile] synecdochic said awhile back in partial explanation for why she stopped watching the show, it's like they've accidentally activated a machine in the bowels of Atlantis that sends out stupid rays, and everyone is getting progressively dumber.

If anything, SGA gets me in a good mood for working on my own, original writing. The really brilliant shows don't make me feel that way. I'm currently loving "Traders" and deep in season 3, but it's not making me want to rush out and start writing, because the show itself is so well-written. With SGA, on the other hand, I can channel my Must fix plot hole! Help! urge into getting chapters of my novels and scripts written.

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