There's a backstory thing in White Collar that is confusing me

[sholio]

I had forgotten until hitting "Bottlenecked" on my rewatch that Keller and Neal apparently had a rivalry going over Kate.

And I have no idea how to reconcile that with the "Forging Bonds" version of Neal and Kate's history. Neal and Keller met in Monaco, and Neal didn't go to Europe and do his whole Copenhagen/France/Italy grand tour thing until after breaking up with Kate. So when did Keller have a chance to meet Kate? Or even find out about her? I can totally buy that Keller and Kate never had anything going on, and that he's simply messing with Neal (which was my impression when I originally watched the episode, too). What I can't figure out is how Keller and Kate could possibly have had enough interaction for Neal to reasonably think it's a possibility, or to fit with Mozzie's comment that the thing between Keller and Neal was "always about Kate".

Thoughts? Am I forgetting something important that would make this all make sense? Or is this one of those things that is just never going to make sense, because as of season one they hadn't worked out a lot of the details yet, and they could only shoehorn so much backstory into "Forging Bonds"? *g*

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Comments

[sheafrotherdon.livejournal.com]

I don't think it ever makes sense. There's so much about the Kate timeline - and when Peter catches him - that just didn't make ANY sense at all to me. But! I would welcome someone explaining the sense I missed, if indeed I did miss it :D

[sholio]

That was sort of what I was thinking, too. *g* I think it's pretty obvious that the writers came up with an awful lot of the Kate storyline on the fly -- especially after they started going back and explaining things in season two (which don't fit all that well with the sequence of events in season one). Mostly their big plot arcs seem to be an excuse for cool and interesting things to happen along the way.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I had forgotten that detail, but you're right! I already thought the Kate backstory didn't make a lot of sense, but that's pretty much flat-out contradiction. I can believe Keller was totally messing with Neal (and I believed it at the time), but there's no reason for Neal to put any credence in it.

Maybe one could kind of justify it that he said something about Kate to Keller while he wasn't with Kate, and Neal believed that Keller was slimy enough to move in on Kate while Neal was in prison just because. It's weak, but you could probably pull it off if you needed to reconcile it for some reason.

[sholio]

Maybe one could kind of justify it that he said something about Kate to Keller while he wasn't with Kate, and Neal believed that Keller was slimy enough to move in on Kate while Neal was in prison just because.

That's about the closest I can come to reconciling it myself. Like I said in my comment below, I think of a lot of Neal's backstory as being sort of metaphorical or a streamlined/simplified version of what actually happened rather than perfectly, literally true (if I ever wrote about it, I'd probably use the events as depicted in the show, but for purposes of not being driven up a wall by it, I think of it as a not-entirely-literal sort of "TV show truth", kind of like I can accept Supernatural as taking place in the Midwest even though it is obviously filmed in Vancouver *g*). But the Keller/Kate thing is not just unlikely or overly convenient in the sense of some of the show's other backstory, but a total contradiction, which might be why I'd forgotten it -- there is really no easy way to reconcile it, and possibly that's why they didn't mention it in the second Keller episode, the one where Peter is kidnapped, even though they would've had a perfect opportunity with the engagement ring being used as a ransom.

There's no specific reason why I need to know, though. It's just pure curiosity.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Their backstory continuity is so fucked the only way it makes sense to me is if I assume that Neal's story in "Bottlenecked" is true to...the spirit of the thing, and he has, in fact, moved stuff around to heighten the sense of romantic fate between him and Kate. Cause it doesn't mesh with what he's previously said at all.

[sholio]

Yeah, I've actually made peace with most of Neal's backstory as revealed in-show (especially in "Forging Bonds") by thinking of it as largely metaphorical, or at least a streamlined/simplified version of what actually happened. For example, that Kate left Neal because his con artist ways spilled over onto their relationship makes sense; the way it actually happened in the episode is a whole lot of WTF. *g*

But the Keller thing is so out there that I can't even figure out how to reconcile it with a mostly-metaphorical version of "Forging Bonds", at least not without really rearranging things.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

I think Neal is one of those people who doesn't tell the truth even in his own head. I'd even believe that he wasn't where Peter arrested him for anything Kate related--but that he's such a romantic, he wants to be the sort of person who'd go to prison for a tragically doomed love. With the backstory we have for Kate, it's very hard to buy them as this serious, Romeo and Juliet couple. The only way it makes sense to me is that Neal needed to star in that sort of story and Kate was the person he found for the other role. And everything else is handwaving, manipulation, and mostly convincing himself. With Kate dead, he now no longer even has to be confronted with the reality of this person; he can make her into anything that works for him. Which makes him sound a mite sociopathic, but I think it's more a coping mechanism, and he's started, especially this season, to have to admit to the fact that reality doesn't work like that.

[sholio]

... I think this makes sense, actually? At least up to a point. My own interpretation of Neal/Kate -- I think I've talked about this elsewhere -- is already something along these lines, that Neal's always been a die-hard romantic and "love at first sight" kind of person, the sort of person who would have fallen for Kate upon meeting her and built it up into a grand romance in his head ... which is not to say that Kate didn't reciprocate his feelings, she obviously did, but the "huge tragic love story, written in the stars" thing is mostly on Neal's end.

But it's absolutely fascinating to me to think that Neal might actually have a tendency to rewrite his own memories to fit what he later decides the situation ought to have been, perhaps without even realizing that he's doing it. I mean, everyone does that to some extent, looking back with the benefit of hindsight. But, to me as a writer, the idea of Neal as an unreliable narrator of his own life is absolutely fascinating. And it's particularly fascinating to think of it as a coping mechanism, like you said, and something that he's slowly learning to work past.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

This is a bit of a tangent, but the best book I ever read written from the perspective of a pathological liar is When the Ground Turns In Its Sleep by Sylvia Sellers-Garcia. And nobody's heard of this book. You slowly realize as the book goes on just how unreliable the narrator is, but you also see that, for him, this is his reality. On one level, yes, he knows he's lying. But on another, it's not really a lie. He absolutely believes what he says at any given time. And his lies aren't to pump up his ego or make himself grandiose. They are just defense mechanisms. When he feels ashamed or backed into a corner, when he feels he lacks something (and the book is mostly about his lack of connection to his family's past, since they fled Guatemala in the war and will not talk about it), he cobbles something together so he can feel like a whole person. And he believes it because he has to.

That's more how I see Neal. I think he knows he's a liar, obviously. But I also think he believes his own myth. I think that's why he doesn't tell Peter about his past. Because as long as Peter sees him as mythic, he can see himself that way, and he'd rather be that person than the person he thinks he is in the middle of the night. (Also, it makes better television.)

But anyway. What I'm saying is, that's a good book and I wish more people would read it.

[sholio]

Ooh, that might be up my alley. :D You know, one of the reasons I love White Collar so much is because I feel that the show grasps the reality of being that kind of person in a way that not very many heist/con shows seem to. Without going into too much detail, one of my close relatives is a pathological liar and small-time con artist -- not a very good one, certainly no Neal Caffrey in any sense, but anyway, what I love about the way the show handles Neal is that his con-artist-ness spills over into every area of his life. I really love heist/con shows and movies, but I'm often annoyed by the way that they compartmentalize it, where the con artist shenanigans are really just there for window dressing, but the characters never seem to behave like people who habitually lie for a living. (Kind of like giving a character a totally screwed-up childhood, or a background as a teen runaway or a prostitute or something -- and then not having it actually affect the kind of person that they turn out to be; it might be interesting set dressing, but it doesn't feel real.)

But to me, Neal reads as a very believable portrayal of that kind of person. He's a kind, decent, sympathetic person, but conning is so habitual with him that he can't just turn it off (kind of like Peter can't turn off his nosy FBI side). And I love what you're saying here, that he is so good at it because he is constantly revising himself -- his memories, his behavior, the person he is and the person he used to be. It fits perfectly with the way that he reinvented himself when he met Adler, too. I like the idea that part of Neal's transformation in the series is not just figuring out who he wants to be, but who he is, because he doesn't really know.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Was the first time Neal went to Europe for the box? I can't remember, now. :/

Yeah, either the show really tripped on that one or were planning on saving the Neal, Keller Kate back story for later on. In the meantime, you have to do a lot of mental shuffling to make it work.

My own personal theory: Neal told Keller about Kate, and Keller sought Kate out, or told Neal he sought Kate out just to mess with him. Or the reverse, Kate met Keller and told him about Neal, Keller needed a partner for something so sought Neal out, and when their partnership fell apart, Keller used his acquaintanceship with Kate to get back at Neal. That's the only way I can figure it. Either that or Keller found Kate while Neal was imprison, and he and Kate worked or were working a job together until Neal found out and warned Kate away.

[sholio]

Was the first time Neal went to Europe for the box? I can't remember, now.

Yeah, the way I understood it, he didn't leave New York until he went to Copenhagen to steal the music box, and then he stayed for a while. (It's hard to really figure out what happened there, actually, but in light of some of his other comments in that episode -- that he hadn't started pulling big cons until he started trying to get Kate's attention after they broke up -- and other characters' comments in other episodes about Neal's big crime spree in Europe, that's the version that makes the most sense to me.

And, yeah, the closest I can come to a Keller/Kate interpretation that makes any sense at all is that Neal mentioned Kate to Keller -- if he and Keller were friends or sorta-friends for a while, it probably came up -- and that Keller was basically messing with him.

Although your other possible version is completely fascinating -- that Keller met Kate first, and Neal after. And there's no reason I can think of why it couldn't have happened that way; it still wouldn't necessarily mean that Keller and Kate were together -- they might have just been acquaintances, and I can easily see Keller being sleazy enough to either allow Neal to infer that they were together, or flat-out lie to him. And that would also make Neal's suspicions about Keller and Kate a little more plausible -- that was the big thing that puzzled me in the episode, really, is why he would actually have cause to think that Kate and Keller might have been together. Neal doesn't strike me as a suspicious or jealous sort of person, and it seems like he'd need some grounds to be suspicious rather than just taking Keller's word for it on no evidence whatsoever. But ... yeah, Keller having known Kate before he met Neal would not only resolve my question, but brings up interesting story possibilities too!

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

But ... yeah, Keller having known Kate before he met Neal would not only resolve my question, but brings up interesting story possibilities too!

I know! I'm now tempted to write something where Kate and Keller have this brief meeting - like at a bar - where it lasts for only a couple of hours but Keller uses the little he learns about Kate to torment Neal... *ponders*

I also like you theory of Neal's view of Kate and their life as self-made and amplified rose-colored glasses. Because Neal is very much a man who lives in his own little world, where things are much more beautiful and perfect than they actually are. We were always given two views of Kate - Neal's view and Peter's view, Kate the love of Neal's life and Kate the back-stabber - yet though we never find out which Kate was the real Kate, it was so much easier to lean toward Peter's view than Neal's (though I consider Kate to be somewhere in between, not a backstabber but not quite as passionate about Neal as Neal was passionate about her. She was just so manipulative with Neal during the whole music box arc, always keeping her distance, always being cryptic. She said it was to keep him safe, but then why was she able to meet with Peter? I really wish the show had cleared the whole good Kate/bad Kate deal up).

So it makes sense that what we see isn't what we've got. It's also fun to explore :D (I love me some deluded woobie!Neal. It usually means making Kate somewhat the bad guy but it's just so dang interesting! Somewhere is a fic where Kate's a bit of a sociopath who can't decide if she loves Neal or loves hurting him - my summary doesn't give it justice because it's so heartbreakingly good and a fascinating possibility).

[sholio]

We were always given two views of Kate - Neal's view and Peter's view, Kate the love of Neal's life and Kate the back-stabber.

I lean towards your view of Kate as well - canonically speaking at least, though the show is so vague that I can accept just about any version of her in fanfic (and I find the idea of Kate as a dark character quite interesting - at the very least I think Kate in season one was either too confused to think straight, or playing her own game which only tangentially intersected Neal's).

And I also think that the two differing views of Kate that you mention here are typical of Neal and Peter's different approaches to life -- Peter's a chronically suspicious cynic, Neal's an idealist, and the truth is frequently somewhere in between.

[swanpride.livejournal.com]

That's the reason I have my problems with Forging Bonds. Up to this episode, it was more or less possible to put together a conclusive timeline.

Well, I'm sure there is some sort of half baked explanation which would work, but the sad truth is that the writers either didn't bother to do their research properly or they just didn't care.

[sholio]

Yeah, like I said in some of the comments, the way I've settled with "Forging Bonds" in my head is to think of a lot of it as metaphorical, or at least a streamlined/condensed version of events, rather than the actual, literal truth. That is, while it may be true that Kate and Neal broke up because of his cons, or that Neal and Mozzie met in New York, what we're seeing is a sort of condensed stand-in for a much more complicated series of events. I think we're supposed to view it as the actual events, but it even makes a sort of sense that it's not quite literal, since the story is being filtered through Neal's memories (and compressed into an hour *g*).

Though even viewing it as largely metaphorical/conceptual doesn't make it any easier to fit Keller in there ...