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All done!
Done with White Collar, just waiting on new episodes now. (Tuesday! ♥)
It really is a lot of fun to be this into a show that's currently ongoing. I still love Highlander and SGA and some of my other former shinies, and we're currently watching (and really enjoying) Heroes on Netflix, but there is something special about the eager little-kid feeling of looking forward to new episodes.
Random thoughts in no particular order:
The season one finale was incredibly wrenching, especially all the goodbyes, even knowing how things turned out. (The hilariously blatant Ford product placement, though .... AHAHAHAHAA. No, really, show, be less subtle! I think we might have missed it otherwise!)
I see why people said that Kate's motivations are murky, though. Murky as MUD, man. She never really emerges as a character. It helped seeing the flashback episode before seeing most of the Kate episodes, but that's another problem, because I'm not convinced that the flashback episode actually fits all that well with the bits and pieces of Neal's timeline and history that we got in season one. I don't think there are any blatant contradictions (except that I couldn't figure out when Neal and Kate were supposed to be so down on their luck that they couldn't afford nice things, since they seemed to go straight from working for Adler to pulling high-ticket cons) ... it's more like the flashback episode makes things too neat and tidy, and rather than being a total mystery it makes Kate into a rather one-dimensional nice girl with no ulterior motives, which I'm not convinced works for me all that well now that I've seen season one.
Another thing I remember people on my flist commenting on was Neal not saying goodbye in the season three premiere, where he'd done it before at the end of season one. But the circumstances of his skipping town are different -- I don't think he felt like he could in season three, because rather than leaving with a legit new identity, he was skipping town with a lot of stolen art, and he had to make sure that Peter had no idea. He couldn't say anything to anyone who moved in FBI or Burke circles. And, yes, I think there is a certain element of hurt/angry "So you think I haven't changed? I'll show you just how much I haven't changed" with Neal right now where Peter is concerned.
Speaking of Peter, I absolutely love how sharp he is at anticipating Neal's moves from the tiniest of clues. I love watching his and Neal's constant game of one-upsmanship, and I think both of them enjoy it, too. I think the show does a fabulous job of keeping that dynamic alive without either of them ever having the upper hand for long.
I need to go back and watch some of the first episodes I watched, especially the end of the Fowler stuff -- one thing about watching it completely out of order is that I have no idea what order certain things happened in.
For example, did Neal ever actually have a fling with Alex, or did they just flirt a bit and then he moved on with Sara? I can't remember. For some reason I keep thinking they had a thing for a while, but I'm not sure. (I do like Alex a lot, though -- I kinda wish that all of Neal's girlfriends/love interests didn't seem to be cast from such a similar-looking pool of actresses, but Alex is streetsmart and distrustful and fun. I'd love to see more Alex & Peter interaction too.)
One thing I find completely fascinating about the show -- and I think this is one of the reasons that it appeals to me even though I'm not really in a mood for buddy shows right now -- is that neither Peter nor Neal are really the other's most important person. Neal is probably closer to Mozzie than he is to Peter, and now there's Sara; and Peter, obviously, has Elizabeth, as well as his FBI team. In an odd sort of way, I think this is actually what makes Peter and Neal's complicated, push-and-pull, give-and-take relationship work for me -- that they both have other people outside that relationship that they love and lean on. And yet they are obviously very close to each other, and the constant evolution and changes in their partnership is what the show revolves around. It's just a neat sort of dynamic.
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comments.
It really is a lot of fun to be this into a show that's currently ongoing. I still love Highlander and SGA and some of my other former shinies, and we're currently watching (and really enjoying) Heroes on Netflix, but there is something special about the eager little-kid feeling of looking forward to new episodes.
Random thoughts in no particular order:
The season one finale was incredibly wrenching, especially all the goodbyes, even knowing how things turned out. (The hilariously blatant Ford product placement, though .... AHAHAHAHAA. No, really, show, be less subtle! I think we might have missed it otherwise!)
I see why people said that Kate's motivations are murky, though. Murky as MUD, man. She never really emerges as a character. It helped seeing the flashback episode before seeing most of the Kate episodes, but that's another problem, because I'm not convinced that the flashback episode actually fits all that well with the bits and pieces of Neal's timeline and history that we got in season one. I don't think there are any blatant contradictions (except that I couldn't figure out when Neal and Kate were supposed to be so down on their luck that they couldn't afford nice things, since they seemed to go straight from working for Adler to pulling high-ticket cons) ... it's more like the flashback episode makes things too neat and tidy, and rather than being a total mystery it makes Kate into a rather one-dimensional nice girl with no ulterior motives, which I'm not convinced works for me all that well now that I've seen season one.
Another thing I remember people on my flist commenting on was Neal not saying goodbye in the season three premiere, where he'd done it before at the end of season one. But the circumstances of his skipping town are different -- I don't think he felt like he could in season three, because rather than leaving with a legit new identity, he was skipping town with a lot of stolen art, and he had to make sure that Peter had no idea. He couldn't say anything to anyone who moved in FBI or Burke circles. And, yes, I think there is a certain element of hurt/angry "So you think I haven't changed? I'll show you just how much I haven't changed" with Neal right now where Peter is concerned.
Speaking of Peter, I absolutely love how sharp he is at anticipating Neal's moves from the tiniest of clues. I love watching his and Neal's constant game of one-upsmanship, and I think both of them enjoy it, too. I think the show does a fabulous job of keeping that dynamic alive without either of them ever having the upper hand for long.
I need to go back and watch some of the first episodes I watched, especially the end of the Fowler stuff -- one thing about watching it completely out of order is that I have no idea what order certain things happened in.
For example, did Neal ever actually have a fling with Alex, or did they just flirt a bit and then he moved on with Sara? I can't remember. For some reason I keep thinking they had a thing for a while, but I'm not sure. (I do like Alex a lot, though -- I kinda wish that all of Neal's girlfriends/love interests didn't seem to be cast from such a similar-looking pool of actresses, but Alex is streetsmart and distrustful and fun. I'd love to see more Alex & Peter interaction too.)
One thing I find completely fascinating about the show -- and I think this is one of the reasons that it appeals to me even though I'm not really in a mood for buddy shows right now -- is that neither Peter nor Neal are really the other's most important person. Neal is probably closer to Mozzie than he is to Peter, and now there's Sara; and Peter, obviously, has Elizabeth, as well as his FBI team. In an odd sort of way, I think this is actually what makes Peter and Neal's complicated, push-and-pull, give-and-take relationship work for me -- that they both have other people outside that relationship that they love and lean on. And yet they are obviously very close to each other, and the constant evolution and changes in their partnership is what the show revolves around. It's just a neat sort of dynamic.
This entry is also posted at http://friendshipper.dreamwidth.org/356232.html with
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One thing: I think Peter is SMARTER than Neal. He's better at his job than Neal is at his. This is why I have a huge feeling of dread concerning Neal's plans to skip town this season. Peter's one step ahead of him without even trying to be. and that makes me nervous.
What's worse is I think Neal KNOWS Peter's one step ahead of him, but he's not sure how to surmount that obstacle. It's going to make him do something stupid, I can just feel it! :(
Man. I LOVE this show, hahah!
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I'm not sure if I'd say that Peter's smarter than Neal, but his Neal radar is incredibly finely tuned, and he's awfully good at thinking around corners. I think one of the things that really makes me love Peter is how subtle he is -- on the surface he seems like a pretty straightforward guy, a blunt, stubborn, Type-A cop who likes watching sports and drinking beer, and doesn't really get the finer things in life. But there are all of these layers to him, layers and layers deep -- he might not like hobnobbing with rich people or hanging around the criminal element, but he's awfully good at it, and in his own way he delights in a lot of the same things that Neal does: figuring out puzzles, conning people (lawbreakers, in Peter's case) and generally thinking outside the box.
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From that episode, it seemed that Neal fell awfully deep in love with someone he'd seen relatively little of, and then I couldn't understand why Kate would visit him every week for nearly four years when she'd run from him and spent quite a bit of time apart! Guilt that he was caught because the trap was baited with her? I don't think it holds together.
I didn't like Alex as much as you did. She used Neal—and Neal used her. I didn't feel a lot of mutual respect between them. She ditched him when she got the music box, found the secret, then brought it to him and pretended she was just avoiding the trouble it could cause when she gave it back to him. Then, when it brought even more trouble, she returned to him.
I do think Peter made a big mistake by deciding on Neal's guilt so quickly when he saw that bit of painting, and that helped push Neal away. But he had just killed a man, so he was more than a little upset! Mostly, though, I think Peter is the smarter of the two.
And I love that we have so many smart people. Yes, occasionally the script requires them to make stupid mistakes, but most of them are for understandable (emotional) reasons. More often, though, the characters are smart, whether they're working together or outsmarting each other! Peter and Neal are the smartest, except possibly for June, who is smarter than we'll ever get to know—because she's too wise to get too far back into the game any longer. Mozzie is a little too eccentric and paranoid but also really, really smart. Diana is a rising star, and Jones is pretty sharp too.
Then there's Elizabeth. She isn't even a Fed or a con, but she has just jumped in and proved invaluable repeatedly! My heroine!
I think Neal and Peter are each about the second most important person in each other's lives, which makes things complicated when Neal has to choose between Mozzie and Peter. Peter has no such conflicts. He'll choose Elizabeth above anything and anyone. See? Smart man!
I could list gobs and oodles of shows that keep writing smart people stupid. I won't do so because it would be a waste of time. I'm hoping White Collar continues to avoid that mistake.
(Sorry if I'm wandering too much. You're helping reawaken my love for the show! Nazi loot, and to a lesser extent too much bad fanfic, took off the shine for me. I've almost stopped reading fanfic; I feel as though not many writers get it right.)
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Yeah, I got a lot of my venting about the flashback episode out of the way in the comment I just posted to
Though that doesn't explain Kate's behavior in the first season AT ALL, particularly her visits to him in prison, like you said. Although ... wouldn't it be crazy if she was actually in it for the money all along, if she was trying to play both ends (get Neal, but also get the music box), and was using Fowler as much as he was using her, until the whole thing blew up in her face ... literally?
She used Neal—and Neal used her. I didn't feel a lot of mutual respect between them. She ditched him when she got the music box, found the secret, then brought it to him and pretended she was just avoiding the trouble it could cause when she gave it back to him.
See, this is actually something I like about Alex, though! She is selfish and heavily motivated by self-interest, though I do think she cares about Neal on some level. It makes her a good foil for the other characters, who are for the most part very selfless, caring people when it comes to each other (even Mozzie, in his way). I like Alex in part because she is very much a criminal, with a strong ruthless streak in her, and yet she's also capable of doing the right thing under certain circumstances.
I do think Peter made a big mistake by deciding on Neal's guilt so quickly when he saw that bit of painting, and that helped push Neal away. But he had just killed a man, so he was more than a little upset! Mostly, though, I think Peter is the smarter of the two.
Yeah, Peter definitely screwed up big-time there, though yeah, like you said, he was in a strange place emotionally (have we ever seen Peter shoot someone on the show before?), and if the evidence pointed to Neal having arranged it, then Neal had engineered his killing of Adler along with everyone else. I think the vehemence of his reaction was at least partly due to personal betrayal and hurt, that Neal would go behind his back and lie to him (or so he thought). And yet, the betrayal was his, for not trusting Neal enough to seek an alternate explanation. And now Neal's making the mistake into reality ... it's so deliciously layered and complicated.
(Woops, ran out of comment space ... continued in next comment!)
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I think Neal and Peter are each about the second most important person in each other's lives, which makes things complicated when Neal has to choose between Mozzie and Peter.
Yeah. I agree. And for Neal, there's the additional wrinkle that Peter is someone to look up to -- I get the general impression that Peter's good opinion means a lot to him (his reaction on the handful of occasions when Peter tells him "good job" is almost puppyishly adorable); Neal's life doesn't seem to have included very many people that he could look up to, respect or admire. I don't want to go too overboard with that interpretation of their relationship because they are both adults and both very independent, and I don't really think he consciously views Peter as someone to model himself after, but I do think that part of Neal's motivation this season is a combination of hurt and anger at Peter's distrust of him (probably not even conscious) and pushing back against Peter's authority, trying to prove that he can do things his way and make it work.
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I kind of identify with El, too.
Yes, I think Neal's not fully aware of how much Peter, and El, and Peter and El mean to him: as models, as friends, even as family. I'm almost afraid to say that last because I disagree with how that gets handled in most fics. But I think Elizabeth thinks of Neal as family, and Peter does too, even though he's resisting it.
I know you love the tension, and I should, but I want Neal to get his head on straight and find a way to get all that art back to the FBI or some other responsible agency without implicating himself and Mozzie! Peter will always know, but he'll forgive Neal if Neal doesn't abscond with it (or let Mozzie). I want Neal to do the right thing! And I want Neal to learn from June's friend, as I thought he had: chasing last big score will bring you down. It can cost you everything.
Yeah, I loved Peter's expression at Neal's leap, and the way he stood there and then did everything he was supposed to do, but didn't tell what he'd suspected. Neal wasn't in that van any length of time. And Peter heard him out later.
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Kate, yeah...I never did make sense of her. In fact I spent most of s2 convinced she wasn't really dead and was actually playing mindgames with Neal (would've liked her more as a villain, really!) And the flashback ep didn't help...actually that's one of the eps that made me lose interest in the show; I was really excited by the previews, but the ep itself... I didn't have an established headcanon for WC, exactly, but of the little bits I had been assuming, that pretty much went counter to all of them. And Kate could've been so much cooler...sigh, missed opportunities!
But yes, Peter keeping up with Neal is always awesome, and the cast is fun - and we can watch the next ep together! ^^
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Wheee! (And it looks like it's going to be fun. Peter and Neal undercover! Peter dancing!)
I was really excited by the previews, but the ep itself... I didn't have an established headcanon for WC, exactly, but of the little bits I had been assuming, that pretty much went counter to all of them.
Yeahhhh .... I think that having seen it when I did (in the middle of a batch of other random eps, and not really knowing the characters very well yet) I was mostly just enjoying the fun/shiny bits, particularly Peter and Neal hanging around Neal's apartment 'til all hours drinking together and reminiscing. But now that I've gotten the whole story and seen the earlier Kate eps, it really doesn't hang together for me. Nothing that is suggested in the early eps seems to be borne out by the flashback ep, and worse, what they came up with is just so flat compared to all the things they could have done. It feels like they tried to tie up way too many loose ends at once, and in the process, did away with a lot of the mystique of Neal as this globetrotting enigma who'd been a bunch of places and done a bunch of things. Neal and Kate's hard times when they had to fill up their expensive wine bottle with cheap wine was apparently ... what, the month or two after she'd lost her high-salary job with Adler? And Peter the supercop caught Neal the supercrook when no one else could by ... staking out his girlfriend? The whole thing is kind of a mess.
And yet, I will forgive a lot for a few scenes of Neal and Peter hanging out together. I'm so easy. XD
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They have the most awesome product placement I've seen, and they say one of those spots can get them a few days shooting on location in NY. It's worth it.
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Ford advertisements are wasted on me either way. Nothing better than a German car.
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Have you seen the new show "Suits?" I was half-hearted about it going in, but I read a decent review of it and decided to give it a shot. First - yay for Gina Torres! Good to see her back, and as the head of the law firm no less. But I really like what they've done with the two leads. Both have lots of flaws. I wasn't expecting to like the show and I've been pleasantly surprised.
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And I haven't seen Suits - is it just getting started? I might wait a season or two before trying it - I seem to need a good chunk of episodes to get into a show.
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Yeah, you right, "Forging bonds" didn't really fit with Neal's backstory (still trying to figure out when he was supposed to have this con man date with Kate, or the love triangle with Keller in the mix), which is the reason I dislike the epsidoe, although for itself it was a good one. (Well, that and I think Peter should bragging about having caught Neal twice, when Neal both time basically allowed him to catch him and stalking out Kate wasn't even his idea in the first place - way to deconstruct a character, show!)
And you are right: The great thing about White Collar is that the story doesn't begin and end at the workplace. Aside from the office there is Neal's world and Peter's world and we see enough of them to make everything more real. It helps that they actually bother to let people like Devlin or Blake come back.
Kate - well, as I once pointed out in my meta, I still think that we never really see Kate. We see Neal's Kate and once we see the Kate Peter sees. We surely will never knew the truth. But I'm okay with it, because at the end of the day, it's not really important what Kate was or wasn't, important is what she is for Neal.
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I am becoming increasingly sold on the idea of Neal's relationship with Kate being largely on Neal's end. I'm not arguing that Kate wasn't into him too, but Neal falling headlong into thinking of a woman as "the one" on the basis of a mutual attraction and a couple of months of dating -- yeah. It totally fits with his character to me: he's a little old-fashioned, and romantic, and totally strikes me as a "love at first sight" kind of guy. Which is not to say that it can't ever work out (I'm living proof -- the guy I married is the first guy I ever dated) but I don't think he was right about Kate, and I don't think there was ever enough about their relationship, objectively speaking, to justify the way that Neal always seems to have thought of it. But that just makes the story more complicated and interesting, I think.
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Neal's romantic streak certainly makes him tons more sympathic than all the other TV conman out there. Sure, there are some who can do romatic dinners too, but the difference with Neal is that he actually is a romantic instead of pretending to be one. I admit, I could swoon for ages over him....
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Pretty much every episode except Forging Bonds is one I could watch again and again - and do! Forging Bonds, though... for me, it felt like they were packing in way too much for such a short amount of time, as well as trying to explain every little nuance, which they really didn't need to do. My bigger issue, obviously, was all the sex, but not entirely for the reasons you might think. It's a given that Neal and Kate were doing it. I wanted something else, something more, something along the lines of Neal and Kate painting together, or sitting around in an empty apartment drinking wine from the bottle and eating cold pizza, or them dancing or taking a walk through the park discussing the life they would like to live - something romantic that showed us why Neal felt his life with Kate was so wonderful. Because what the episode seemed to give us was two horny and slightly immature young people, not the wonderful love Neal is always gushing about. And, yes, it did very little to really flesh out Kate.
I'll admit, though, that I kind of like the idea of Kate as not being all that in love with Neal, possibly even using him, because I find it fascinating *cough*and good angst fodder!*cough* But there are so many theories on Kate that's it's hard for me to settle on one because they so plausible.
Alex was someone who I didn't like at first but who really grew on me. And that's something else to love about White collar - the way everyone grows on you. It's so rare (at least for me) to have a show where your adore everyone.
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I still like rewatching some of the Neal and Peter scenes in Forging Bonds, but it really wasn't a good episode. I like most of the fanfic takes on various aspects of the whole situation -- Neal's relationship with Kate, his cat-and-mouse thing with Peter, the way he eventually got caught -- a whole lot better than the actual canon version! And I agree with what you said about wanting to see Kate and Neal doing everyday things together. I think that's one of the things that makes Peter and El work so well as a couple -- that most of the interaction we see between them is precisely that sort of thing: making breakfast, talking about work, stuff like that. It would've been nice to see a lot more of that with Kate and Neal, or at the very least an indication that they shared some interests beyond him teaching her to run cons.
Actually, responding to comments above has kinda sold me on the idea of Kate and Neal's relationship as being mostly on Neal's end! To me it fits very well with Neal's character that he would fall really hard for a girl he didn't know well -- he's a romantic, and kind of old-fashioned in a lot of ways, and he's definitely got this craving for love/belonging/family that would make him a little bit vulnerable to falling into a somewhat one-sided relationship. I am not sure if it's what the show was going for (actually, I'm pretty sure it's not what the show was going for) but to me it's plausible for Neal as a character and for the story arc in general. To me, Kate's behavior in season one is less consistent with that of a faithful lover, than someone who is at least as interested in his money as in Neal himself. It's considerably sadder than thinking of Kate and Neal as lovers destined for each other, but I think it's a lot more interesting from a story perspective.
(btw, we were talking about icons earlier - if you actually did want to swap out one of your icons for a Neal one, I found some absolutely lovely ones here. *is a bad influence*)