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squeeflailbabble!
This episode was completely MADE OF 100% SQUEE.
I'd seen white-haired Amanda on an icon, but didn't realize it was her; I thought it was either a guest star or a new character. She looks cool that way! I love the rapport that she and Duncan have after all these years, how they can practically read each other's minds -- the bit with the fight on the boat, hee!
eeeeee more Amanda flashbacks! Wow, she really does remind me of Vala a lot. Randomly, I like the detail that she and Rebecca slept in the same bed, which is unexpectedly appropriate for the era and also supports a femslashy interpretation if one is so inclined. :D
And of course .... MEEEEEEETHOS. ♥
I love the amount of continuity that we're getting with the Alexa storyline. I was fully expecting that Methos would just be gone for a few episodes and when he came back, she'd be dead. I really love that we're getting bits and pieces along the way. But, oh, poor Methos. *clings*
The duel in the rail yard and its aftermath -- PURE SQUEE OMG.
METHOS AND AMANDA, PARTNERS IN CRIME. OH MY HEART.
And the whole rest of the episode -- THE BRIDGE SCENE. NO WORDS. JUST CAPSLOCK. SO AWESOME. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE XD
... er, I expect I will probably be a mostly-gen fan in HL fandom as always, but to the extent I ship this show, I think I've found my OT3. Methos/Duncan/Amanda 4evah! As friends or lovers, it's all good ...
I'd seen white-haired Amanda on an icon, but didn't realize it was her; I thought it was either a guest star or a new character. She looks cool that way! I love the rapport that she and Duncan have after all these years, how they can practically read each other's minds -- the bit with the fight on the boat, hee!
eeeeee more Amanda flashbacks! Wow, she really does remind me of Vala a lot. Randomly, I like the detail that she and Rebecca slept in the same bed, which is unexpectedly appropriate for the era and also supports a femslashy interpretation if one is so inclined. :D
And of course .... MEEEEEEETHOS. ♥
I love the amount of continuity that we're getting with the Alexa storyline. I was fully expecting that Methos would just be gone for a few episodes and when he came back, she'd be dead. I really love that we're getting bits and pieces along the way. But, oh, poor Methos. *clings*
The duel in the rail yard and its aftermath -- PURE SQUEE OMG.
METHOS AND AMANDA, PARTNERS IN CRIME. OH MY HEART.
And the whole rest of the episode -- THE BRIDGE SCENE. NO WORDS. JUST CAPSLOCK. SO AWESOME. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE XD
... er, I expect I will probably be a mostly-gen fan in HL fandom as always, but to the extent I ship this show, I think I've found my OT3. Methos/Duncan/Amanda 4evah! As friends or lovers, it's all good ...
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Methos/Duncan/Amanda 4evah! As friends or lovers, it's all good ...
I WOULD SUBSCRIBE TO THAT NEWSLETTER. OT<3333333!!!
(maybe with a little Methos/Joe on the side)
But yeah - Methos and Amanda together are the living incarnation of WIN. and Duncan's got enough AWESOME WEIGHT OF HONORABLE MORALITY to counterbalance both of them.
(and hee, I think one of the reasons I was fond of Vala was that she reminded me of Amanda...)
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"YOU TRY BEING HER!"
Oh Methos. (And he breaks down crying! And there is hugging! SHOWWWWWW!)
As always, I love how the show can run the gamut from funny to action to heartbreaking in just a few minutes. The whole Amanda and Methos breaking into Watcher HQ sequence was so much fun (the cat! "Not the carpet!") -- although, why is a cat running around the booby-trapped section of the fortress, anyway? don't ask, just don't ask -- and then MORTAL PERIL and OH NOES ADAM'S COVER IS BLOWN (heh, lucky for him all the Watchers who knew his secret got conveniently killed on the bridge, eh?) and HOSTAGES and EXPLOSIONS and eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. The bit at the end of the bridge sequence where they're helping Duncan get up with the flames in the background, I THINK I COULD WATCH IT FOREVER. *flails*
LOL, Duncan being the moral counterweight to Methos and Amanda's well-intentioned deviousness -- hahahahaha, Duncan, you are DOOMED. Oh god. I want to write that. SO MANY THINGS I WANT TO WRITE. We shall see if this ficcing urge persists beyond the end of the series -- I really thought I was going to write a lot more A:tLA than I did, and then it just didn't end up feeling quite right -- but right now my brain is going in about a million ficcy directions. SHOW!
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Heeee - I would rather love it if you took to writing HL - I never had much luck finding the fic I wanted to read (never quite figured out what that was, actually - other than h/c, of course, which is kind of tricky with these chars, if not impossible...) and the few times I tried to write it myself never went anywhere, but I have a feeling I'd be greatly entertained by whatever you came up with (...most especially if it were this OT3, friendship or other!)
A:tLA is so Type A that I can barely conceive of fic for it - I know why it inspires, because the chars and their relationships are all fantastic, but I just like the show so much as it is that I don't crave any additions. (though I'm way curious about Korra, of course!) But HL has enough holes and whatnot in its canon that there's plenty of room for fun...
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LOL, I had noticed this. :D But that doesn't make it impossible nor stop me from dreaming up scenarios (XDDDD), especially given my own laid-back approach to h/c, since it's not really the smarmier stuff that gets me anyhow -- there have been a few scenes in the show that pushed my h/c buttons hard.
A:tLA is so Type A that I can barely conceive of fic for it - I know why it inspires, because the chars and their relationships are all fantastic, but I just like the show so much as it is that I don't crave any additions.
Yeah, and that's what ultimately became a problem with me, both reading and writing fic -- I ended the series craving MORE MORE MORE, but the more I went looking for it, the less it satisfied. Canon was complete enough that the more time I spent in the fandom, the less I wanted to ... not because there was anything wrong with the fandom or fic per se, but -- well, you understand! Dresden Files was that way too, perhaps even more so, because having written that one Thomas/Justine story and then realizing that it conflicted heavily with the author's headcanon was like hitting a brick wall for me -- I think it was the last thing I wrote for it except for my Yuletide fic, and I'd already gotten the assignment. Canon is complete and satisfying enough that I don't want anything but more canon.
But HL ... yeah ... I do think it's more coherent with the characters' emotional arcs than a lot of shows (... having fanned on Stargate for the past few years does lead to lowered expectations in that area *g*) but it's definitely got that nice-for-ficcing combination of great characters and interesting canon that's nevertheless so full of holes, gaps and cracks that fic can easily be slid into the interstices ...
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And I see what you mean about the cheekbones...
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Also, if you'll note the credits, Adrian Paul directed this ep. *pets him*
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Hee!
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I read about as much femslash as I do slash or het -- which is to say, it's not my usual thing (I'm a gen or gen-with-canonships gal) but I'll read it if it's good and/or the pairing grabs me. And I'm thinking that Amanda/Rebecca is a pairing I definitely could get behind. :D
That's right, I saw Adrian Paul's name as the director and then it completely went out of my head as soon as Methos started talking, heh. But yeah, this episode ROCKED MY WHOLE WORLD. Methos and Amanda: accidental enemies and then partners in crime, and poor Duncan caught in the middle, trying to play peacemaker and keep the whole thing from spinning horribly out of control! I love them all so much. And yeah, the whole end sequence was completely made of win as well. Amanda willing to give away her most treasured possession as a supportive gesture, oh Amanda. ♥
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I probably read more Amanda gen than I read Amanda pairing fic, myself, but I adore Rebecca and basically take it as canon that Amanda and Rebecca have been lovers. I mean, these are Immortals who have probably been there, done that, in every sexual scenario imaginable down through the centuries. It's kinda interesting that "gen" for Highlander is so very different from "gen" for SGA.
And there's definitely a lot to be said for Duncan+Amanda+Methos platonic OT3, though. Even without sex thrown in the mix, their threesome dynamics are fascinating. The end sequence was gorgeous. I love their friendships.
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Heh ... a lot of fandoms don't do gen quite like SGA does gen. *g* That was something that was a bit startling for me when I first got into the fandom, because most of my previous fandoms had been anime fandoms with lots of canon pairings, and SGA's strict noromo interpretation of gen was a little weird for me to deal with. Not necessarily bad weird, because there are some pairings that I really don't do, and it made avoiding them a little easier! But different, and increasingly awkward with the labeling once the show itself started introducing canon pairings, especially since one of those pairings was wildly unpopular enough that people wanted warnings if there was even a hint of it ...
But, yeah, I actually agree -- I read Amanda and Rebecca that way, too, which is probably why they work for me so well as a pairing. (I'm a hopeless canonshipper. It's very sad. I have a great deal of trouble putting two characters together in my head unless there is something canonwise pointing in that direction to go off of, even if it's only -- as in the case of my SG1 OTP, Sam/Teal'c -- a bit of subtext in one episode and some extracanonical things the actors said in interviews. *g*)
But it's neat to be in a fandom that has so many possibilities -- because, yeah, the way that the Immortals go through this continual process of growth and change and reinventing themselves over the years is really fascinating. (Or, as the case may be, don't reinvent themselves, don't change -- one of the things I love most about this show is that's not the default, but a character trait that some people have and others don't, depending on what kind of person they were to begin with.)
And I didn't know if I could fall for another character combo on this show as hard as I fell for the Duncan+Tessa+Richie triad in season one, but I'm pretty sure this episode did it with Duncan+Methos+Amanda. They are just ... squee!
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But now I'm curious what was the bit of Sam/Teal'c subtext that convinced you of the pairing!
Also, I hate pining, especially women pining for men. It's one of my greatest pet peeves. The thing I love best about Duncan/Tessa and Duncan/Amanda is that there is absolutely no pining. With Immortal characters and UST, it's such a different set of problems than mortals pining for the one who got away. Duncan's friendships are generally so rock solid that, yeah, occasionally there are misunderstandings and lack of communication, but they're wise enough to know what's important. They work things out like grown-ups and there's none of that, "Oh, if I tell him how I feel and he rejects me, I'll never see him again!" trope you often see. (This isn't a spoiler btw--I'm just talking about fanfic cliches.)
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But now I'm curious what was the bit of Sam/Teal'c subtext that convinced you of the pairing!
Hee! It was "Unending" -- quite a bit of the latter part of the episode, actually, but especially that bit at the end when Sam says it must be torture not to talk about what happened on the ship and Teal'c agrees. Then I read some interview or other where the actors were talking about how they did play it that way -- that it was head-canon for Tapping and Judge, at least, that their characters had hooked up on the ship, and I was all, "eeeeeee!"
Obviously I'm not deluded enough to believe it's actual canon. *g* But that was what gave me a toehold into the pairing ... unfortunately the rarest of rare pairings, but oh well. I've pretty much drifted entirely away from SG1, anyway; my big SG1 phase was over a decade ago, and it sucked me in again for a little while in season 10 because I fell hard for Vala and re-fell for Teal'c, but I've kinda drifted off again ...
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You've finally seen it, so I can tell you it took a lot not to say a thing when you were like "Now that Methos has riden away with Alexa..." after Timeless. I was like: watch the rest!!!!! *g*
Anyway, yeah Amanda/Methos really rock my world. There's a lot of interpretations that she already knew about Methos before, since there's no grand reveal of her finding out who he is. But equally plausibly she just didn't care that much, being 1000 years old herself.
Amanda/Methos/Duncan is something I could definetly enjoy, although I'm a bit of a DM/M at heart, it being my first slash pairing and all. But Amanda is love, so it's ok.
The scene on the bridge is _awesome_!
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Amanda and Methos are so much fun together! And they've become such cute friends! You know me, I'm really not a shipper at all, and my OT3/OT4s are platonic as often as not. I just like them all in one place. :D Regarding Amanda knowing about Methos (or not), I'm really not sure ... I could totally believe that there was some kind of off-camera "finding out" scene that we never saw, or that she knew about it where Duncan didn't -- she is quite a bit older than Duncan, after all, and surely some Immortals know about him.
I still haven't gotten over the awesome of Methos's "hiding in plain sight" strategy for staying out of the way of other Immortals, though. I really thought his cover had been blown for good in this ep; lucky for him that all the hostile Watchers who knew his secret died on the bridge ...
And I have SO MUCH LOVE for the bridge scene, I just can't express it! ha, Methos's FACE when he sees that both Duncan and Amanda are carrying detonators. And the bit at the end, where they pick up Duncan -- eeeee! (And nobody has bothered to untie Methos at that point ... it's awfully cute that they're rushing over in that much of a hurry to check that Duncan's okay, but the bad guys are all out of commission at this point; they could take the extra second or two to cut Methos free ...!)
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And yeah, that was what first hooked me on Methos I think, that he was hiding as a Watcher in charge of finding himself. That was just... ♥
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"You think it takes courage, to do what we do, face another immortal with a sword, knowing only one of you will live. YOU TRY BEING HER..."
And yeah, I could go through through the whole thing, but I'll be good (that does not stop me from randomly reciting it at points...) God but I love his voice so much and his delivery and that sob/cry thing he does on Amanda's shoulder and then their adorable cuteness breaking into the place! Oh but I do ADORE that ep!!
Dammit, I need Methos icons. I used to have one somewhere but I don't know where it went...hmmm...
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SHOW! :D I've fallen so hard for this show, and for all of them.
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(Btw, the impression I'm getting is that Amanda's known Methos for quite a while, but has never been close to him before.)
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It's not like I think it's completely impossible that he might kill or betray a friend, but mostly to the extent that I think anyone might, particularly in a world as morally gray and filled with difficult choices as theirs is. Even Duncan has killed friends before, and killed people who didn't deserve it, for various reasons.
Admittedly, up to a point, this is sort of symptompatic of me wanting to think the best of characters when I'm fanning on them. *g* I've always preferred to embrace the warmer side, not the darker side, of the characters I'm focused on -- not that I'm going to deny that the dark side exists if I see it, but it makes me think less of them, I guess? It's why I almost never fan on bad guys (not gonna say "never", obviously, since there are major exceptions *g* ... but usually what I like is watching them struggle to be good). I denied and denied for years that the dark!Sheppard characterization in SGA fandom had any validity, until at last canon made it obvious enough that I couldn't deny it anymore. And it did take a lot of the wind out of the sails of my love of the character, I have to admit -- up through the end of season three John vied with a couple of other characters for my top favorite spot, but he definitely slipped down a few notches as the character went darker. I mean, certainly I never came to hate him or anything, but I found him less easy to engage with.
That's one of the reasons why I kept stopping people who wanted to talk more about Methos's future characterization in HL. I definitely get the impression that either he turns out to be darker than I've seen so far, or that a lot of the fandom likes to embrace his dark parts (like a lot of SGA fandom likes to embrace Sheppard's dark side) and see him as a darker, more ruthless character than I do, and no farther along than I am, I'm not really sure which is true. But I really don't like thinking about it, because that's not what I'm fanning on. If he goes darker than I'm comfortable with, then yeah, I'll just deal with it, and maybe switch my allegiance to other characters. I've done it before in other fandoms. But I'd rather not borrow trouble before it happens. *g*
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They really are, yes - though Duncan more than Amanda, I think. Amanda is right about Methos's personality - she's just wrong about where he draws his lines. Duncan's code of honour, though, really isn't Methos's. I think ... for Duncan it's a matter of principle, and for Methos it's personal, if that makes sense? Methos just doesn't believe in an objective right-and-wrong the way Duncan does.
I think if Methos was going to go that dark in that situation, then he would have, wouldn't he?
Oh, yes - I didn't mean to imply that I thought he would have killed Amanda! Sorry if that's how it came across.
Admittedly, up to a point, this is sort of symptompatic of me wanting to think the best of characters when I'm fanning on them. *g*
Yeah, I think we're opposites in that regard - for me, the warmer side of the characters becomes all the more meaningful the clearer their dark side is. Hence my deep and abiding love for dark!Sheppard. *g* I think it makes me love heroic characters all the more if their better side is also a choice, if that makes any sense to you.
It's why I almost never fan on bad guys (not gonna say "never", obviously, since there are major exceptions *g* ... but usually what I like is watching them struggle to be good
I'm definitely with you on that. Unapologetic bad guys who just stay bad are not attractive to me at all, no more than good guys with no temptation towards the dark side.
And, okay, I'll better shut up about this since it's clearly not your thing. *g*
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It's not that I want my heroes to be paragons -- actually, the characters I like most tend to be those who do have some sort of morally conflicted center, or, even more, those who rose above something-or-other to become better people than they had any right to be. I love characters who are basically good people but with a slightly tarnished center, maybe because of moral weakness in certain areas, maybe because they had a rough life and have gotten worn down and jaded, maybe because they just never learned any better and now they're starting to. I like characters being forced to make tough decisions and not always making the right one, but still wanting to do what's right -- just being put in situations where there's no obvious "right" thing to do. It's hard to explain ... I don't want it to be easy for them, but it's hard for me to love a character who finds both the good and the bad side equally appealing -- "shall I kill my friend today, or have lunch with him?" (... although if
Duncan's code of honour, though, really isn't Methos's. I think ... for Duncan it's a matter of principle, and for Methos it's personal, if that makes sense? Methos just doesn't believe in an objective right-and-wrong the way Duncan does.
This, I absolutely agree with -- and I think that's very much true of Amanda too. Actually, I just watched the next episode (the one with the Immortal magician) and that comes out very strongly in Duncan's arguments with Amanda. She would go to the ends of the earth for people she loves, but not for a stranger on general principles, but Duncan's the other kind of person, the kind who does something for principle, because it's right. I get the distinct impression that Methos is much more in the Amanda camp -- saving people because you love them, not because it's the "right" thing to do. Right now, just given what I've seen so far, it's hard for me to believe that Methos wouldn't go that extra mile for someone he cares about (or, for that matter, that he doesn't care at all), but maybe just because I'm rationalizing, because I want to like the character and believe the best of him. When I'm past the first flush of fannish squee, it's a little easier for me to see characters more realistically and through less of a rose-colored lens. But right now I'm still in the SQUEEFLAIL place. *g*
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I'm being very careful to say nothing that's not based on episodes you've already seen. Promise. :)
those who rose above something-or-other to become better people than they had any right to be.
On this, we couldn't possibly agree more. I think I just like them to fall - or have fallen - further than you do? It's why I love redemption stories to pieces, and why I fell so hard for characters like Xena, or Snape, or Spike, or any of that ex-villain-turned-hero archetype.
I probably focus on my favourite characters' darkness quite a bit, whether it's their struggle with their past (if they used to be villains) or their temptations to cross certain lines (if they started out on the good side). Those are the things that fascinate me most, and I'd never have fallen so hard for, say, Sheppard in the first place if I hadn't seen that capacity for darkness in him from the start.
but it's hard for me to love a character who finds both the good and the bad side equally appealing -- "shall I kill my friend today, or have lunch with him?"
Hee! I'm with you on this in general, although this does sound sort of fun. What fandom was it where you fell for a character like that? *curious*
I get the distinct impression that Methos is much more in the Amanda camp -- saving people because you love them, not because it's the "right" thing to do.
Yes, absolutely agreed on this. Perhaps that's not so surprising when you're that old and have seen so many different philosophies and codes of honour come and go ...
Right now, just given what I've seen so far, it's hard for me to believe that Methos wouldn't go that extra mile for someone he cares about (or, for that matter, that he doesn't care at all), but maybe just because I'm rationalizing, because I want to like the character and believe the best of him.
I think, from what you've already seen, it's obvious that he does care, and that he does go that extra mile. Saving Duncan from the Dark Quickening is pretty much a case in point, and so, in its own way, is going for the Methuselah Stone for Alexa's sake - not like that didn't turn out plenty risky! You don't need any rationalisation to see what's plainly there on screen. *g*
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Er. Dragonball Z. *headdesk* And he was one of the Big Bads, for a while anyway. In my defense, he sort of had a redemption arc, although I think it really amounted more than anything else to the manga writer not really wanting to kill him off permanently and just sticking him in the good guys' group for no particular reason, despite all the many times he'd tried to kill them (or their friends, family, entire species, etc...). And he still tried to kill them every so often ...
On this, we couldn't possibly agree more. I think I just like them to fall - or have fallen - further than you do? It's why I love redemption stories to pieces, and why I fell so hard for characters like Xena, or Snape, or Spike, or any of that ex-villain-turned-hero archetype.
*nods* I think you're right -- similar characters, but not as far down. And still, it's all dependent on character, because sometimes it works for me (I was awfully fond of Snape!). But it definitely works much better for me if it goes Evil --> Good rather than Good --> Evil; that is, I love finding out that a character who appears to be sort of one-dimensionally bad has more dimensions, but finding out that a character who I thought all along was a loyal member of the good guys' group is actually going to sell them out to their enemies, or betray them and leave them to die, is a much less fun surprise.
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Oh yeah, I can't say I find that particularly attractive either. At least, if there is a good --> bad trajectory I want them to pull themselves out of it again so it's more like good --> bad --> good. *g*
Spoilers for Being Human series 3 in comment
I was thinking about our different reactions to the end of the last season of Being Human - spoiler space here, not for you, but for anyone on my flist who hasn't seen it and actually cares (I am SO ANNOYED with LJ doing away with spoiler-span in comments; it makes this kind of thing so much harder ...)
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Anyway, I was sad about the way the end of Mitchell's story unfolded, but it didn't break my heart and it didn't destroy the show for me (though I'm still not sure if I'll be back for series 4). They took him down far enough that I don't think I would have been comfortable with him coming back from it -- even if the character was able to rise above it, I don't think I would have been comfortable with the show giving him a pass for his actions, in light of how many people died and how willing he was to do whatever it took to cover it up. I actually had a lot of respect for the show going ahead and giving as much weight to the lives of his victims as to the main character's angst, because that's pretty uncommon for TV to do. Granted, I would have much preferred that the show had continued on the trajectory it seemed to be on in season one, but if they were going to do what they did with the characters, I was satisfied with the ending of season three as the outcome of that.
Obviously it's situational -- I'm not saying that I would categorically condemn a character for doing things that are morally bad, shady or wrong, nor do I think redemption is impossible, etc. Heck, my brother is on active duty in the military; I am certainly not going to condemn him for killing and hating people who want to kill him. One of the things I really love about fiction is that it lets us explore a whole range of human responses to trauma and injustice and disaster, from the petty to the heroic to the "committing evil in the name of a good cause" variety -- and those are the sorts of stories that interest me most, actually: stories about people being pushed to the edge and having to find out what kind of people they really are. And I think that's why I'm often dissatisfied with "redemption" arcs in TV and such -- they don't really give sufficient weight to the complexity of the situation to satisfy me. Being Human actually did, even though it was depressing as hell -- whatsername the dead girl's Machiavellian attempt to punish Mitchell for her death was shown in just as negative a light, not as any kind of just vengeance, but as petty revenge. I certainly wouldn't want everything I watch to be that unflinching, but I appreciate that the show was willing to do it.
... come to think of it, that's something I really love about "Justified", as well -- not sure if you're at all familiar with it, but it's a very dark show in which the hero is only one step above the criminals, if that ... the whole premise of the show is that he's an FBI agent who gets reassigned to the middle of nowhere because he keeps beating up or killing suspects. It's like a more realistic take on the Die Hard and Clint Eastwood type of heroes, where his tendency towards brutality isn't something that the show gives him a pass on, but it's a character flaw that he's managed to turn (mostly) towards protecting people rather than harming them (but not always). I love the show precisely because of its darkness and moral ambiguity. (Though admittedly it is not a show that's drawn me to fan on it; it's just a little too dark for that.)
Re: Spoilers for Being Human series 3 in comment
I don't think it's dark that bothers me, per se -- it's canon and/or fandom failing to give the weight to that darkness and to their morally shady actions that it deserves, I guess.
Naturally I agree with this; I’m just not sure we have exactly the same idea about what it “deserves”. *g*
About Being Human, there are several separate issues that go into my dissatisfaction with the way it went. Like you, I would have much preferred it if they’d stayed on the track they were on in series 1, though maybe not for the same reasons.
First, I don’t do tragedy and dark endings, fannishly speaking. I can appreciate it as good storytelling, but I cannot be fannish about it. (I find it actively depressing if I get emotionally involved with it to the degree I do with fannish things. I know you’re supposed to get catharsis from tragedy; all I get from it is depression.) And when something I used to be fannish about turns into tragedy, that’s quite unpleasant for me.
Second, I don’t believe there is anything you can’t come back from, and to me that was exactly the philosophical underpinning of the first series – that it’s always worth to keep trying. Perhaps I’m just an eternal optimist in that regard, but that was what I loved about the first series so much. I don’t think putting Mitchell on the road to redemption again would have meant giving him a pass for what he’d done, which I agree would have wrong. Now, I agree if he had to go out (and he did, since the actor was leaving), this was the way to do it. And it sure makes for good TV. But it gives me no pleasure at all to see a fundamentally optimistic show turned into a pessimistic one.
Third, there are few tropes I hate more than “redemption through death”. Did you ever watch Xena? There’s a reason that show’s finale is almost universally loathed, and it’s exactly that. For six seasons, that show was all about Xena’s struggle for redemption, and the basic philosophy was always that the way to deal with what she’d been was to move forward and do better. In the finale, all of that was forgotten and instead she died because that was the only way she could atone for her past.
Now, Being Human is a different case, obviously, since Mitchell’s just hit his lowest point, and at any rate it wasn’t so much a radical break as a gradual shift in philosophy. But I don’t like the trope itself any better just because it wasn’t as clumsily executed – I seriously hate the idea of death as any kind of solution. What I want to see is people struggling to do better, even after they’ve hit their lowest points. That has meaning for me; death just feels like a shortcut. Don’t deal with what you’ve done, don’t live with it, don’t try to make up for it, just switch off the lights. I know that’s not how it’s meant to be read, but to me it feels like the easy way out of guilt. I hate it. Does that make any sense at all?
and those are the sorts of stories that interest me most, actually: stories about people being pushed to the edge and having to find out what kind of people they really are.
That’s why I love dark!Sheppard, in fact. *g* And unlike you, I wasn’t unhappy with the way SGA handled it for the most part; I feel that while the fandom was quite stupid about it sometimes, the show was far more subtle than people gave it credit for. No, it wasn’t perfect, and oh yes, it would have been a better show if it had been less episodic, but I thought they did pretty well within the constraints of the episodic format (which required a sort of reset at the end of each episode.)
(I’ve never watched Justified - I heard about it, but it didn't seem like the kind of show I can watch because I have serious issues with institutionalised violence, and for me, having an FBI agent who acts the way you describe comes too close to that. Ironically, I’d probably love a vigilante with a similar personality. *g*)
Re: Spoilers for Being Human series 3 in comment
(I’ve never watched Justified - I heard about it, but it didn't seem like the kind of show I can watch because I have serious issues with institutionalised violence, and for me, having an FBI agent who acts the way you describe comes too close to that.
*nods* That makes sense! I think the reason why the show works for me is precisely because it deals with the down side of having an agent who's that much of a loose cannon, rather than expecting us to sympathize with him all the time. I have a very flinchy reaction to abuse of power, too -- it's why I can't watch shows like Hawaii 5-0; I tried, couldn't get through more than an episode, and from all I've heard, I'm better off that way! But the execution of this show works for me; I can see it going too dark/bleak/gritty for me very easily, but right now it's successfully managing to walk the line between having us sympathize with the hero and showing him up for the violent bastard that he is. (Well, I haven't seen this season yet, so I don't know, but last season really drew me in.)
And unlike you, I wasn’t unhappy with the way SGA handled it for the most part; I feel that while the fandom was quite stupid about it sometimes, the show was far more subtle than people gave it credit for.
Heh ... thinking about it, I think that a lot of my dissatisfaction with it was with the fandom's reaction more than the show itself. Not all of it, definitely, but, yeah ... a lot of it...
It's kinda gotten to the point with me and SGA where I can't write it anymore because I can't sort out my own impressions of the show from other people's fanon. I think if I did go back to writing it in any major way, I'd need to do a rewatch and avoid other people's commentary for a while. Right now my own headcanon is all mixed up with other people's headcanon and it's a confusing mess. My characterizations are all over the map. I just don't have a good feel for who these people are anymore.
Another thing about SGA, I guess, was that while the episodic nature of the show and the lack of consequences sometimes irritated me, I couldn't complain too much, because I really don't think it would have been anything like the same show if it had been more realistic in its writing and dealt in more depth with the consequences of the characters' actions! It wouldn't have been nearly as much fun; by the third or fourth season, it would've been impossibly depressing. It was my silly space show, darn it.
Did you ever watch Xena? There’s a reason that show’s finale is almost universally loathed, and it’s exactly that. For six seasons, that show was all about Xena’s struggle for redemption, and the basic philosophy was always that the way to deal with what she’d been was to move forward and do better. In the finale, all of that was forgotten and instead she died because that was the only way she could atone for her past.
I didn't watch the show, but, um, ouch. That's a rather dreadful way to reward viewers for sticking with the show through six seasons! (Despite all the misery in the fandom surrounding the finale of SGA, it's kind of nice to be reminded of just how many shows had absolutely miserable finales. The defining "awful finale" for me was Forever Knight, a show that ultimately left no one standing but the main bad guy!)
As for the rest of it, this probably requires a new comment ...
Re: Spoilers for Being Human series 3 in comment
I can imagine how frustrating that must be! Thankfully it's not something I'm very susceptible to - the more I run into fannish interpretatiosn that don't agree with mine, the more stubborn I get about mine. *g* (And let me tell you, I disagree with SGA fandom a lot!)
That's a rather dreadful way to reward viewers for sticking with the show through six seasons!
Yeah, it really was. Although Forever Knight sounds like something else! What is it about finales that makes them feel like a slap in the face so often? Like Star Trek: Voyager, where they managed to destroy all three main 'ships, all in one go ... I'm still furious about that, actually.
Re: Spoilers for Being Human series 3 in comment
There was a general feeling in the fandom that the network had deliberately tried to destroy the show when it came back from a successful "save this show!" campaign -- again, this is just rumor that I heard secondhand, since I'd jumped ship. I got back into it a few years ago when the series came out on DVD and I watched the first two seasons, though not, for obvious reasons, the third. *g* The end of season two certainly didn't hint that anything like this was on the horizon.
Re: Spoilers for Being Human series 3 in comment
I can't even imagine why anyone would do that. :(
Still more spoilers for Being Human
It's always been a trope I've liked. Actually I guess it's a specific application of a broader character type which largely defines the kind of characters I love most: "people who are better/braver/smarter/stronger than they seem on the surface". Cowards who become heroes, wallflowers who step out of their shell at the best possible time, jerks with a heart of gold, dumb-seeming bullies who are hiding secret smarts or kindness underneath -- that sort of thing gets me almost every time, and "villain who's not as villainous as he seems" is no exception.
But ... I don't know ... I guess I've overthought myself right out of the trope to some degree. *g* I became too conscious of the way that redemption stories ask us to identify with the emotional pain of abusers, attackers and killers over the pain of their victims, and it started to bother me.
It doesn't mean the trope doesn't still have some power over me, doesn't mean that I think it's bad or anything like that, even that I can't empathize with it anymore. And what it says about human nature, I think, is positive and hopeful; it's just that I guess I want to see a more balanced application of it, where there's at least as much attention paid to the victims as well as the redeem-ee. And I appreciate seeing it subverted from time to time; I thought Being Human did a great job with that, actually.
... mind, I'm not happy with "redemption through death" either. It's too easy, too pat. Not to mention depressing as hell. And it's an absolute end to any more stories being told, at least with that character. In the case of Being Human, I suppose, it was less depressing than any other likely outcome I could think of in that case, because they'd brought Mitchell to the point where I couldn't really see him being taken back into the group, and wouldn't really have wanted to see that happen in any case. I guess that's the difference -- I used to be willing to accept a lot more redemption than I am now (in fiction, I mean). I draw my lines in different places than I used to. I'm not unwilling to sympathize with a character who pushes the envelope and does bad things, but I want the narrative itself to acknowledge that if they hurt someone, their pain isn't all that matters.
I can appreciate it as good storytelling, but I cannot be fannish about it. (I find it actively depressing if I get emotionally involved with it to the degree I do with fannish things. I know you’re supposed to get catharsis from tragedy; all I get from it is depression.) And when something I used to be fannish about turns into tragedy, that’s quite unpleasant for me.
Heh, me too, which is exactly why I don't tend to fan on things that have a tendency to take a sudden left turn into tragedy or darkness -- at least if I figure it out in time. *g* Of course, combining this with my spoiler avoidance means that I try to play it safe if I can manage to. Torchwood, say ... that show burned me bad with Tosh and Owen's deaths, which meant that by the time I got around to season three, I wasn't emotionally engaged any more -- the end of series two gutted me, and I wasn't about to give it my emotional involvement anymore. So I enjoyed Children of Earth as good TV (and it was!) but didn't really get too involved with the characters (probably for the best *g*).
I was fannishly engaged with Being Human in season one, but it was season two where it lost me -- they took both Mitchell and (to a lesser extent) George to places where I wasn't willing to follow, as a viewer, so by the time it got to season three, I'd already given up on it fannishly -- I was watching for story rather than character at that point, and I really liked what they did with the story, the way they approached the tropes they were dealing with. It might've been a different story if I'd still been as into the characters as I was in season one (and it might be a very long time before I can go back and watch the first season again ... I've been thinking about deleting most of my BH icons because I just don't really get the fannish pleasure from them that I used to).
Re: Still more spoilers for Being Human
It's definitely a balancing act, writing about a villain's redemption without brushing aside their victims. And fandom falls down on this more often than not, alas. But I still want it - I just want it to be done right. (And seeing it done wrong all the time just makes me want it more. I'm contrary that way. *g*)
Torchwood, say ... that show burned me bad with Tosh and Owen's deaths, which meant that by the time I got around to season three, I wasn't emotionally engaged any more -- the end of series two gutted me, and I wasn't about to give it my emotional involvement anymore.
Heh. For me ... I loved Tosh and Owen, but for me, Torchwood is all centred around Jack and his story, and that's where my main focus is. Which allowed me to enjoy it despite the bleakness, to remain emotionally involved without being too burnt by it because it's not the end to Jack's story. But I understand where you're coming from!
(The fannish response to CoE pisses me off a lot, especially the people who claim it was badly written. WTF!)
With Being Human, my fannish focus was Mitchell, and I was fully engaged in series 1 as well. S2 went down, and down, and I wasn't entirely happy, but I hoped that s3 would recover from that, and if that had happened I'd have been fine fannishly. Yeah, well, you know how that went. *g*
Re: Spoilers for Being Human series 3 in comment
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Oh man, I just realised that this is the episode that inspired one of my favourite vids - it's to the Pet Shop Boys 'Opportunities' with an AU plot line of the threesome teaming up as a criminal gang like a cut down version of Ocean's 11...
(It does also have clips from later eps, so don't go looking for it yet, but if you do it was by Killashandra).
Oh, and I'm so glad you unfiltered these posts because I have been enjoying them very much.