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Finished with Doctor Who Season 1
I loved the finale. What can I say ... I have this huge sappy weakness for "last stand" stories. Even if the Daleks STILL remind me more of giant salt shakers than something you'd run away from. (Being attacked by an army of shoulder-high, heavily armed salt shakers is nothing to sneeze at, though.) And Jack in Rambo mode, and the Doctor sending Rose home in the Tardis, and the origins of Bad Wolf ... much love, yes. Even if it's really, really best NOT to think about the time travel too much.
However, I'm starting to have, well ... problems with the way that the Doctor and Rose behave towards the people around them. Rose and the Doctor aren't bad people, but they're not particularly nice people -- it's not that they're deliberately cruel, but they just don't bother to care. Like leaving Jack behind on the space station (not that, I gather, it's a big deal to him or that he even minds; but it's the principle of the thing, dammit -- abandoning your allies on a space station full of dead people in a dead solar system is very bad form) or the way Rose has been treating Mickey, especially given how often he goes out of his way to help her.
Rose and the Doctor are very committed to high ideals -- saving the universe, that sort of thing -- but when it comes to the little, day-to-day things, like, say, behaving like decent human beings towards other people (aside from each other), they fail at it. Whereas, someone like Mickey, or Rose's mother, could care less about the fate of the universe -- what they do instead is protect and help the people they care about. It's a lot easier for me to sympathize with Mickey defending Rose's mom with a bat than to sympathize with Rose exploiting her boyfriend's affection for her in order to obtain his help chasing after the Doctor.
With the exception of each other, they're far more committed to their ideals than to the welfare of individual human beings. It seems like they're willing to give the people around them just enough information and assistance to really get them in trouble, and then turn them loose to fend for themselves -- like taking Rose's genius boy-toy from the museum to the year 200,000 and then abandoning him in an alien environment that he knows nothing about to sink or swim. I realize that the people around them are adults and are responsible for their own decisions, but at some point you *do* have responsibility for the effects of your actions on other people; it's not enough to fall back on the "Well, I know I talked him into it, but it's not my fault he said yes" defense. It's almost like they're little kids playing with toys -- getting what they want out of other people, but failing to notice the effects of their actions on anyone else.
They're willing to sacrifice themselves to save the universe, or apparently each other, but when it comes to anything beyond that, they're kind of self-centered, aren't they?
And sometimes they aren't even willing to take the saving-the-universe step, like the Doctor refusing to push the button to destroy the Daleks. Okay, I understand that he doesn't want to become like them -- that it's a violation of everything he believes in. But, at this point, he's not saving anyone but himself -- he's sacrificing the universe on the altar of his own conscience. The Earth is dead, everyone on the space station is dead; if he activated the device, all he'd be killing would be the Daleks (and himself). By pushing the button, he saves the universe; the only thing he stands to gain by not pushing the button is to keep his hands clean, at the cost of countless lives. Violating his own ideals to save the universe would be a tremendous sacrifice, but it's a sacrifice he wasn't willing to make; he chose himself and his own conscience over the lives of countless innocents.
Luckily Rose took the choice out of his hands, so there were no consequences for his failure to act. Convenient, that.
The ultimate problem here is that I'm finding it harder to empathize with the characters the more I see of them. I can't quite seem to sink into full appreciation of their devotion to each other when that devotion is generally at the expense of everyone else. Jack's comment about saving Rose, that "she's worth it" -- er, I'm not really sure that she is, actually, given that she's done very little lately except for single-mindedly pursuing the Doctor through time and stepping on whoever she has to in order to do that.
My, this has turned into a wee bit of a rant. ^_^ I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the Tennant episodes -- it's just that I'm having trouble right now emotionally engaging with the characters, because more and more they're turning out to be people I feel slightly skeevy empathizing with.
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As for Rose..yeah. I like Rose, but she did become too absorbed with the Doc, to the extend of shutting everyone else out. I think that's one reason her story ended, and that it ended like it did.
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But I don't know how Rose's arc ends, so shhhh, don't tell me! ^_^ I know there's another Companion later, but that's all I know at this point, and all I really want to know.
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Actually, I fell even more in love with the show when they did the episode where Rose comes back and she's been missing for a *year*, not just an hour. So... yeah.
Jack. Oh, god, Jack. That's the ONE thing I hated about the season finale, just hated that they left Jack behind, without even a thought! Argh. And then he shows up in Torchwood, the other new series, and he's just so...broken. So not Jack, so wounded because they left him, and it hurt so much to watch him like that instead of the rakish, happy-go-lucky rogue wiht the heart of gold he'd been with the Doctor and Rose. Just... gah. Torchwood is different enough from Dr. Who that it was hard enough to get into, without the grief I felt for Jack.
David Tennant took some getting used to, but I like him now, and while I don't think Season 2 was as awesome as Season 1 over all, it was definitely, definitely worth my time and attention. Season 3, on the other hand...*boggles* Hurry up and get caught up with the rest of us! ;-)
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Oh, ouch. That makes it worse, because based on everything that I'd seen about the character so far, I'd been assuming that he comes from the same mentality that they do -- that it wouldn't really bother him in particular to be left behind, because he's just happy-go-lucky roaming through space and never really had that much attachment to them, either. And knowing that it's not like that, that he did feel abandoned and that it hurt him a lot -- okay, OW. It bothers me even more now. Although my husband pointed out, when I did some "GAH THEY LEFT JACK" flailing, that the Doctor didn't necessarily know he'd come back to life. Only Rose knew, and she was so out of it with the Heart of the Tardis that even she might not have remembered -- so it may not have been thoughtlessness so much as just assuming that he was dead. (Although, really, it would have been nice if they'd checked!)
I like to think that the show is going to address this, because at this point it feels like the Doctor and Rose are being held up on a pedastal as if they can't do any wrong, while in reality they're doing wrong everywhere they go -- I think I mainly just want the show to acknowledge that.
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Some of these issues actually come up in the show - they're definitely character flaws, and written as such. People who meet him do react on this. I think - for the Doctor, it's just part of who he is, which is not human. His mind works in different ways than you'd expect from a normal human, and it can make him seem - cruel, even, as Rose finds him in the first episode when he's got plastic!Mickey's head with him, and she's freaking out about her boyfriend being dead and the Doctor really doesn't get it, at first. And then Rose - she's 19. Which is an age where we like to think we're all grown up, but it's still so easy to be influenced by people around you, and when you meet someone who's pretty much a force of nature, personality-wise? She's not mature enough to tell him off for his behaviour, not once she gets used to him. (It does happen, though! Which is good. It's good for him to have people around who ground him; remind him of all those aspects of being human he never quite seems to grasp.)
Not saying you should excuse them everything, but... Well. Alien. Hard for me to hold him by human standards, especially when he does have such enormous depths of compassion. I remember being moved by the scene where he was comforting the dying pig the Slitheen had modified and put in their crashing ship - a pig. And because it had to die scared and alone, he felt sorry for it.
That the Doctor couldn't push that button - the thing is, I think he already has. He's the last of the Time Lords for a reason. He ended the war. He ended the war, and killed all the Dalek, and killed all his people. And it almost broke him. He's really not - well. Rose is helping him heal, but the Doctor you catch glimpses of in the pilot (talking to Rose about being the last, and pleading with the Nesteen Consciousness-glob thing), with the Tree Lady at the end of the world, and with the lone Dalek... The war did quite a number on him. Being the one to pull the metaphorical trigger on no less than two whole civilisations - one of them his own - isn't something someone like him is equipped to handle. Very few beings are equipped to handle something like that, actually. So - yes, it was cowardly to want to avoid going through that again, and for being responsible for wiping out the planet he always seemed to love more than his own home, but. I don't think it's keeping his hands clean (I read him as being very aware that they aren't) as much as being completely unable to force himself to go through with something like that again.
And then there's the writing on the show, which is all following the age-old adage of "if you're not with the Doctor, you're screwed". Watching the Confidentials ("making of" specials for each episode, with interviews with actors and writers and producers and looks at the f/x production and shooting and lots of lovely things like that - they're the same length as an episode, and they were made to air right after the show) actually helped me get less bothered by all the people they were failing to save. It does bother me (I have a whole theory on how reading manga made it worse, because anime/manga usually deals more with the the actual consequences of killing, but that's for another time), but I shifted the blame for that from the characters by putting it squarely on the writers' shoulders. Yeah, you probably shouldn't use authorial intent that way, but... Um. I wanted to. They let people who aren't with the Doctor die to make a point/create tension; that's not his fault. (I kind of suck at not trying to be an apologist, don't I?)
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I believe RTD also made comment during season 2 (possibly in the Dr Who Confidential about the episode Fear Her?) to that idea of kind of selfishness.. I can't remember the comment exactly but it was something to do with the series building a growing feeling that this cannot last, that they are spinning around the universe, carefree and reckless and that it's got to end, it's starting to catch up with them, the danger and the threat is growing and at some point things are going to go wrong.
Season 2 again also built more on the idea that you expressed above about the Doctor being not human, not held to human standards, and that he is very much broken by what has happened to him, by what he was forced to do to end the time war. And that he can be cold and he can be cruel. There is a darkness in him... and that makes him all the more interesting to me! :D
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And the Daleks, yeah, I felt the same; it wasn't that he was selfishly putting his own conscience above the fate of the universe, so much as that he was too weak to do it. Rose totally saved his bacon there...and still, to me, I'm not sure what she did was 'right'. The Daleks are monsters, but...they could be more. "Dalek" proved they're sentient beings. Committing genocide...again...is that right? (one wonders what Ten would have done...)
I love the show for how the Doctor is the hero, but you're not supposed to blindly accept everything he does as the right thing - he screws up, he makes a lot of mistakes. And a lot of times there just isn't a right answer, and the Doctor himself isn't perfect - far from; he's badly damaged, an emotional basketcase. But he's trying; he's doing the best he can, for all his flaws and faults. And he's never on the wrong side - even if he's not always on the right one - so you can cheer him on. Or at least I can!
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Comment 1 of 2 (what? long-winded? me?)
I do get that from the show ... basically all of that. Especially the Doctor not being human, and not relating to things as a human -- the scene with the pig really demonstrated that, I think, because to him there's no real difference; I loved that scene, and one of the things I loved most about it is that it made me stop and think, "You know, to him a pig in that situation is just as sympathetic as a human in that situation; he's no more invested in either one of them, because he's an *alien*." I think they've brought that across very well. And it made me think about how much difficulty he sometimes must have in dealing with humans, seeing how we treat other living things on the planet, especially as seen from an outsider perspective.
But even though I understand that, it doesn't make him easier to relate to -- at least not for me. It's similar to the problems that I had reading C.J. Cherryh's "Foreigner" books; I don't know if you've ever encountered those, but they're about a human ambassador to a race of aliens who have no concept of friendship or personal loyalty ... in their society, it's all about screwing over the other guy and getting ahead. The main character, being human, keeps instinctively relating to them on a human level, making friends and liking them personally and, on a subconscious level, expecting them to like him and be loyal to him right back -- I didn't make it very far into the series, because it was too hard to watch him getting repeated emotional smack-downs. The author did a fantastic job of developing a very different, very alien morality and thought process -- but for me, as a reader, it ended up being too difficult to relate to, because I wanted the affection that the characters just weren't capable of demonstrating.
The Doctor's not nearly on that level -- but in some small ways he's kind of getting there, if I'm making any sense? I think it's made worse in his case because he obviously *is* capable of love and affection and compassion, but he's brutally callous to the people that he doesn't give it to. I think it would be easier for me to deal with if he were like that all the time, but he's not, so it's very hard for me to get 100% emotionally involved in a scene where he's giving his all to save Rose, when we've just come off a scene where he betrayed or abandoned someone else.
He's really not - well. Rose is helping him heal, but the Doctor you catch glimpses of in the pilot (talking to Rose about being the last, and pleading with the Nesteen Consciousness-glob thing), with the Tree Lady at the end of the world, and with the lone Dalek... The war did quite a number on him.
This is something I hadn't really thought about (consequence of mainlining the entire first season in about two days), but looking back on it, I can definitely see what you're saying here. I don't think I'd recognized the depth of the damage that the war had done to him, but looking at the first season as a whole, the signs are there.
Re: Comment 1 of 2 (what? long-winded? me?)
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Re: Comment 1 of 2 (what? long-winded? me?)
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Comment 2 of 2
And then there's the writing on the show, which is all following the age-old adage of "if you're not with the Doctor, you're screwed".... It does bother me (I have a whole theory on how reading manga made it worse, because anime/manga usually deals more with the the actual consequences of killing, but that's for another time), but I shifted the blame for that from the characters by putting it squarely on the writers' shoulders.
LOL! Well, at least SOME of that is inevitable in any action/adventure type show, I think, unless it's written with a depth of sensitivity that the genre doesn't tend to achieve very often. Because people are GOING to die, or at least get hurt, and the protagonists have to either become total basket cases or suck it up and deal with it. Doctor Who does seem to be falling on one end of the extreme, though...
You've probably noticed that there's a tendency towards that in SGA, as well -- a darkness that becomes more pronounced as the series goes on. In some cases, the consequences of their lousy decisions aren't nearly what they should be; yes, I blame the writers for that. *g* I'm actually looking forward to discussing this with you when you get to episodes where they make *very* questionable choices, because in my head I've been comparing it to the Doctor Who situation and trying to figure out why one bothers me more than the other. But I won't really go into details yet ... you'll get there soon enough.
Actually, Western entertainment in general -- and American in specific -- is pretty bloodthirsty, the whole Lethal Weapon/Dirty Harry type of thing (which I think Jack, with his American accent and his guns, is TOTALLY riffing on). I'm not sure if I'm noticing it so much in Doctor Who because the emotional consequences of that kind of mentality are being brought to the forefront of the show, if not actually managing to get the characters' attention. I *like* it when shows humanize the cannon fodder and make you think about what things are like for the not-so-faceless victims in the background -- actually, this is something I really like about SGA, because they do a good job (I think) of making you sympathize with the "redshirts" and regret when they die, or even using established, already-sympathetic characters in the "redshirt" roles. (Waaah!) And Doctor Who does that as well, maybe even a little TOO much, because it sometimes gets hard to emotionally disassociate from the victims and go ahead and enjoy the more lighthearted aspects of the show when someone sympathetic just got killed, betrayed or abandoned.
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Something else that struck me watching Doctor Who was the difference in the way the episodes are structured in terms of the ohnoes big bad thing at the end of the episode, compared with my other scifi staple, Atlantis. Doctor Who seems to often have the bad thing actually *happen* in the end and then somehow be fixed, whereas on Atlantis, the big thing is generally built up to and then averted last minute. I'm probably not even making sense explaining this, but it really stood out to me, and I've been dying to comment on it with someone else who is familiar with SGA.
[/rambling] :p
Oh, and I hope you don't mind that I've friended you. Wanted to keep up with your SGA fics, but I always feel a bit strange friending someone I don't really know very well. So, um, hi, in case you're wondering who I am. ;)
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I'd actually been comparing it to Atlantis in my head -- I can't really help it, because Atlantis has a lot of darkness, too, especially as the series goes on, and yet the darkness in SGA and the characters' dubious moral choices doesn't taint my enjoyment of the show the way that it's starting to with Doctor Who (even though it does make me a little morally queasy sometimes); I was trying to figure out why that is. I think the difference is that in SGA, the morally questionable things they've done have happened because they're trying their damnedest to do the right thing -- betrayal in Progeny, mass-murder in Misbegotten, happened because they weren't going to stand by and let Atlantis and Earth and their friends be destroyed. In the broadest moral sense, it really isn't that different from what goes on in Doctor Who, but on the show, it feels different -- there's no other way I can put it. There are times when I really don't like it, but on a visceral level, I can sympathize with it. Whereas in Doctor Who, it seems like Rose and the Doctor *only* have that level of loyalty to each other, and the callousness towards everyone else is much more pronounced -- they really don't *care*. SGA tends to leave you with a strong feeling of they really shouldn't be doing this, acknowledged (usually) in canon through one or more of the main characters; I don't really get the same feeling from Doctor Who.
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We watched Doctor Who a month or two ago and something has always felt off - more with Nine (Christopher Eccleston) than Ten (David Tennant) and we've been trying to ID what it is - that Nine doesn't have the sort of class/decency/something that the Doctor usually has and reading your post was like flashbulbs in my brain.
You're so very right about this and I think that was a lot of what was bothering me. Huh.
*gives you gold star*
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But other people have also raised a lot of good issues in their comments as far as *why* they behave that way -- off to address them.
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Just wanted to also respond to this specific comment of yours - without wanting to spoil anything for you for future episodes... this specifically is actually touched upon in a late Season 3 episode. And how much do I love that a show like this will leave what seems a loose end like that, something that niggles and seems off, and then actually reference it nearly two whole seasons later and make you look back at that original event with a new perspective? Fantastic. :)
I also feel to a certain extent (and this is reinforced by the following seasons) that in some ways the Dr's selfishness is a deliberate, even forced light-heartedness, almost an avoidance technique. He has been through so much and seen such darkness and I often feel like he is kind of running from him own past, taking Rose on a whirlwind trip of adventure and fun and games through time and space and very deliberately NOT letting himself dwell on the negatives and the consequences. He was had to make terrible decisions in the past - and often has to take those hard choices again and be the responsible one, when he has to - and I feel sometimes he has deliberately taken on the role of a wanderer, a thrill-seeker, to escape even for a short while from that terrible responsibility.
Can't wait for you to get into the Tennant episodes
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He can care globally/galactically/universally, he can fight for the future of the human race. But caring for individuals...if he cares too deeply for all the people he meets in his travels, he'd snap in a matter of days. He can risk having a few companions, a few people he can protect personally, and will do anything for, to stave off loneliness. But people die around him, a lot, and he couldn't save all of them no matter what he did...I don't think he can avoid that; he or the TARDIS is drawn to trouble, and trouble follows him (much of it not really his fault so much as the fault of being what he is). He does what he can to help, but... His emotional distance is the distance of an ER doctor in a constant state of emergency, always in triage mode, care for who can be cared for, savor your victories, and don't look too closely at who you're losing. In the Ninth Doctor I think this trait is magnified, because the war is so very much still in his memory; he's trying to escape, trying to run about having fun, but every time things go south - as they always do - he's on the battlefield again.
I find the Doctor fascinating because he is capable of such compassion, and yet can be so cold, so seemingly unfeeling. He loves the human race absolutely and yet gets so frustrated with humans. He'll fight to his last breath to save life, but he's not nearly as affected by death as one would expect him to be. (and I love the way the show keeps returning to these themes. The Doctor's the hero, but he's far from perfect...and I rather love him for it...)
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The LJ comment limit is not my friend
Re: The LJ comment limit is not my friend
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That interpretation definitely works for me -- it fits really well with what we've seen so far. But it still doesn't really leave me wanting to spend that much time in the Doctor's company, you know what I mean? I can totally get behind this rationale for why he behaves the way he does -- but if there's no evolution in the way he acts, no abating of the callousness, then he's still not that sympathetic to me. I'm actually not really sure how you'd do that on the show, because I don't want moralizing and I don't want the hero to be a paragon of virtue ... but right now it feels like there's something a little bit lacking in the way the characters are portrayed. It's not even unrealistic; in fact it's a lot more realistic than having the main characters be heroic and upstanding. it's just that I'm left, more and more, wanting the heroes to *lose* because I have more sympathy for the characters around them than I do for them.
And how much do I love that a show like this will leave what seems a loose end like that, something that niggles and seems off, and then actually reference it nearly two whole seasons later and make you look back at that original event with a new perspective?
Sweet! I'm really loving the continuity to the show so far. It's very obvious that they've put a lot of thought into it and spend a lot of time laying groundwork for future events. I really love that in a show.
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"However, I'm starting to have, well ... problems with the way that the Doctor and Rose behave towards the people around them. Rose and the Doctor aren't bad people, but they're not particularly nice people -- it's not that they're deliberately cruel, but they just don't bother to care. Like leaving Jack behind on the space station (not that, I gather, it's a big deal to him or that he even minds; but it's the principle of the thing, dammit -- abandoning your allies on a space station full of dead people in a dead solar system is very bad form) or the way Rose has been treating Mickey, especially given how often he goes out of his way to help her."
Yes, I never did understand that! And if she was able to bring people back, did she bring back others? I was a little confused there.
I actually like the doctor because he is really a bit of an arrogant jerk but yet very caring. I do see what you are saying, but I've always been able to empathize with him. He's a man used to traveling mostly alone, or so it seems.
I don't know, I actually miss the ninth doctor he was so good at cocky.
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Someone said something...lemme scroll back up because I loved it...oh, about the Doc's problem is that he sees too much of the big picture. I absolutely love that. Not only has he seen so much, but as a Time Lord, he's seen different outcomes of events. For all we know, some of these sacrifices could actually be for the greater good, some outcome that only he knows about. To be honest, I have to wonder how it is that the Doc isn't totally whacked by now. Closest we've come to that was Peter D and Colin B, because PD's regeneration was the "roughest", and Colin B was just...out there. LOL! No wonder Sylvester McCoy was a clown (though I tell you, he could crank up the power when he wanted to! Definite darkness underneath the mask.)
What I really love is the differences and how one leads to another. You have the original, who is just a cranky old man that knows a lot and is impatient with those that don't. In a sense he's very much a child in the Time Lord way even though his appearance is an old man. He's pompous and thinks he knows everything.
The second Doc was the vagabond, the one that was trying to find his place. He retains that child-like aura, and this being his second regeneration, is trying to come to terms with that whole senario and who is he, while still dealing with issues of life and death and morality (interesting notions for one who has so many lives). He's the teen, he's testing the waters. At times he's very immature, at times he suddenly seems to know things that are way advanced of even his years.
The third was the later teen/early 20's, the one that is more concerned with image and self expression. There is more confidence here, more of a certainty in who he is, what he is. He is more liable to make friends now, he's more willing to test these theories and notions that he's developed. He still is arrogant, but by this time has a "bigger picture" to look at, and allows that to temper him to some degree. But he is still very set in his ways.
The fourth one is the young adult. Tom Baker just took the character and made it his. He's cocky as they all are, but at the same time is more forgiving. At this point he accepts his need *not* to be lonely, which shows in his various companions (I believe he had the most companions of any doc). Part of this is his need for acceptance, not so much on an emotional level but more because his "job", who he is, is becoming planted in his brain. This doctor shows more discovery, more doubt, more of the original child-like tendency, and is becoming more philosophical.
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The fifth Doc is the turning point. This regeneration didn't take as it should, which affect this particular incarnation. He's tasted the threat of death in a way that he never has before. He's vulnerable, he questions, the universe weighs more heavily on his shoulders than the others. It is like a human facing mortality for the first time, not only because of his own brush with death, but because this incarnation has the first (and only) experience with the death of a companion. He's at that stage of "adulthood" where one realizes for the first time that life is short, nearly half gone, and what does one have to show for it? And again, right before his next regeneration, he asks, "Is this death?"
The sixth Doc is nothing more than middle-age anxiety. The vibrant jacket is the equiv of a shiny red sports car. His attitude is so pompous and over the top that it seems he is in denial and reaching for some ideal that isn't there. He is the conscious polar opposite of what he was, he knows he's not immortal, and he's cracking.
The seventh is the result of that crack. LOL! He had to find a way to put himself back togther, and in doing so, rediscovered his power. A darker side was shown. Glimpses of all the previous incarnations can be seen here as he becomes a whole person.
The eighth is a bit glossed over, seeing as how it was a movie. But this Doc is a whole person, perhaps for the first time. Again it was a rough regeneration, and I'm seeing that the forgetfulness seems worse with each one. This Doc is more gentle, more emotional, more willing to sacrifice and come to terms with his feelings for someone, which is a new step for him. He is mature.
The ninth really is the sum of everyone. He is cocky, caring, pompus, funny, daring, vulnerable, knowledgeable, and at this point starting to become self-absorbed with his tasks. His planet is gone, he is the last, and that puts a burden on him unlike anything he's felt before. So at the same time...he's a bit lost. Right when he needs his power, he has it, but either too late or at an unthinkable price. And as full adults do, he's thinking again about companionship, not wanting to be alone, only this time there is a sense of longevity to it. This is wanting some stablility.
The tenth again is a good summary of the Docs, as he is matured and knows for the most part who he is. Tennant is everything the other Docs were, with one addition: his detatchement. He has the ability to look at a situation completely from the outside. He is also very hurt, and truthfully I'm thinking even a bit scared. There is no evident insecurity other than his now apparent *need* for companionship. He now feels very, very alone, and as adults tend to do in later middle age, he might be thinking more about settling as best as he can (which admittedly isn't very good).
And we'll see where it goes from there!
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... although, these haven't been the *only* times he's regenerated, have they? I mean, since he's been alive for 900 years, I assume there must have been a lot of incarnations in that time that we just haven't seen.
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Well, well, well... *big grin*
Quickly, on other issues. Commiserations on your RL issue. I know some time has passed since then, but sorry to hear about that "bump in the road". Sounds like it really rather sucked.
Happier note: you vidded Handle With Care! YAY! I've always loved that song and I love the clips you chose and the huge sense of team "friendshippiness" that the vid has. Living up to your name there. And you know how that stuff just gives me the warm fuzzies. ;-)
VERY happy note: you've finished another SGA story, I'll probably have to read it this evening (conference to attend and all), but to say that I'm excited is a major understatement.
But, yeah, I do have some time this morning (coz I'm awake early due to still being on Montreal time, I think) to chat about your Dr Who meta (although I haven't read the whole discussion yet).
I do agree with you about a lot of this (surprised?) and where I differ perhaps has as much with me having seen the old series of the show as with the fact that I've seen the later two seasons. And although I've been kinda building up to saying this sort of stuff in a "meta" on season three that I still plan to write when I've got time, I'm gonna say some "controversial stuff" on your LJ again - coz I think you'll get it.
Rose Tyler is SUCH a Mary Sue!
I don't hate Rose. Really and truly, I don't, but I have to admit that it somewhat perplexes me that those who are really big with the MEGA Rose-love fail to see this.
I have actually pointed this out before and someone pointed out to me that the Doctor is a bit of a Marty-Stu (or Gary-Stu or whatever) himself. And looking back when they said that, I'll admit that perhaps he is. But I imprinted on the Doctor when I was about seven years old, so I forgive him a lot. And that said, while I do like Christopher Eccleston's version, he's by no means my favourite.
And for me, the Doctor is supposed to be unsympathetic and "not nice". He always was an alien who just looked human and often didn't quite "get it" where certain things about humanity were concerned. I won't go into details (so I won't spoil you) - but part of what I love about Tennant's version is that he really embraces (and not infrequently points out) this flaw.
Back in the old series, the Doctor really was a wanderer who stumbled into "the most terrible trouble" and fought his way out of it. In this new series, he's the last survivor of his civilisation and he takes his responsibilities as a "Time Lord" much more seriously. Okay, to spoil one line for you, at one point he compares what he is now to what he was in the old series and says "When I was younger, I had so much more mercy." I found that chilling because it's very true to the character development, as shown, but it does convey a "loss of innocence" in the character that was my childhood hero. Just about ALL of my favourite characters have a visible "inner child" still present (at least, to my eyes) - and the Doctor still does, but he has lost some of what he had before, a casualty of the inner child being forced to grow up due to devastating tragedy.
(Over the LJ character limit? There's a surprise!)
Re: Well, well, well... *big grin*
Thank you for the kind words on the vid. I've really been wanting to do a team-squee vid lately, and I love that song, so -- it just had to be done!
I think I'll do my main reply to your other comment below, because, well, it's basically all on the same topic: Rose. However ...
Okay, to spoil one line for you, at one point he compares what he is now to what he was in the old series and says "When I was younger, I had so much more mercy."
We actually just watched that episode last night -- the one with Evil Giles. (Hee.) And it did feel a bit chilling, especially since the previous incarnation of the Doctor had seemed to struggle really hard against that side of himself -- starting from the sword duel with the aliens in the first Tennant episode, I get the idea that this Doctor has a harder edge to him, even though on the surface he's a lot goofier and less brooding.
I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle than you, I suppose, because while I did see quite a few of the older episodes when I was in college (Tom Baker, mostly), the show wasn't a part of my childhood landscape in the same way that it was for you. I can see what you mean about loss of innocence -- actually, the last episode we watched, the one with Evil Giles and the other Companion, was all about that -- but for me, it's more that I enjoy watching the development of the loss-of-innocence motif from a narrative and character-development perspective, rather than having it resonate with my inner child ... if that makes any sense?
I think a lot of my dissatisfaction with the show, as expressed above, has to do with having expectations for it that weren't quite being met -- but I've settled into more of a happy equilibrium now, helped along by Tennant's general adorableness.
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But to get back to season 1 and some of your comments here:
Jack's comment about saving Rose, that "she's worth it" -- er, I'm not really sure that she is, actually, given that she's done very little lately except for single-mindedly pursuing the Doctor through time and stepping on whoever she has to in order to do that.
YES!!! That line from Jack actually crystalised a lot of the vague discontent that I'd been having with Rose's character all season. The OTP-ishness of her and the Doctor had been disgruntled me because it seemed to "shippy" and that's not what the series had always been about. Yes, the Doctor had always shown loyalty to his friends and his closest friend at any one point in time was usually a human female (although once, she was a female Time Lord). But in the new series, they seemed to be trying to make Rose the "Greatest Companion the Doctor has EVER HAD" (TM) - and they were ding it by just telling the audience how wonderful Rose was. As you say, she just basically used people like Mickey to further her own Grand Adventure with the Doctor. She's "All About the Doctor" and, more annoying to me, he (and most other guys in the show) are "All About Rose". And they never really explain why. It's just stated that "Rose is worth it". And like you, my knee jerk reaction was very much "I' m really not sure that she is."
And I love Jack in the "Doctor Who" series, but he doesn't engage me emotionally (and frankly comes across as more of a prick) in the spin-off series "Torchwood". And I'm actually fairly sure that the main reason is because the "All About Rose" gets transferred to being "All About Jack". And I actually would suggest that you not watch "Torchwood" aside from just taking a look out of curiosity because I've come to think of the Torchwood team actually being the antithesis of the SGA team. If the SGA team are the "dork squad", then the Torchwood team are the "bitch squad" (*ducks to avoid the ensuing firestorm from that remark* but details of my discontent are here (http://derry667.livejournal.com/82402.html)).
The irony is, for me, that by the writer's trying to build Rose up by telling how "worth it" she is all the time without really showing it, made me respect the character less and less, but the characters like Mickey and her mum, which were "just the comic relief" to begin with, I grew to respect and love more and more. This was possibly always the plan, as they really do come into their own in season two, but I started loving them in season one. "Mickey the Idiot", in particular. He always seemed "real" to me in a way the
Mary SueRose wasn't.(As a brief aside, I actually don't hate Mary Sue characters and/or stories on general principle. There are actually some clearly Mary Sue fanfics which I've found well-written and interesting - and where I've actually found the heroine interesting, sympathetic and well-portrayed. So, calling Rose a "Mary Sue" is just a description with me, not outright bashing. She just not on of the Mary Sues that I feel a great deal of sympathy for. I do adore her "successor", Martha Jones, though.)
What is this LJ comment limit of which you speak...?
Rose Tyler is SUCH a Mary Sue.
LOL. You can say controversial stuff here anytime -- especially when I agree with it!
If you do get around to reading the above discussion, I go into some detail on how the thing that mainly bothers me about Rose is the way she's put on a pedestal by the other characters when she hasn't earned it. It's kinda like the Weir situation on SGA, where we're often told that she's the galaxy's greatest diplomat, when she's amply shown to be a mediocre one, at best. It makes me resent her, through no real fault of her own, because I feel like the writers are trying to force her down my throat. I'd like her much more if the flaws we keep seeing in canon were acknowledged by the show (and, preferably, brought to the forefront and analyzed and mocked, like with the guys...).
That line from Jack actually crystalised a lot of the vague discontent that I'd been having with Rose's character all season.
Yup. It really hammered it home to me. And like you, I don't dislike Rose; I just wish she were presented a bit differently. I think that the writers are trying to do her as kind of an "everywoman" of sorts, a self-insert character in the same way that a character like Kirk is something of a self-insert for men -- the cool, attractive person who's got aliens of the opposite sex swooning over him/her. I'm not 100% opposed to the idea of that; I like that Rose has a sex life, and love that she's the one bringing home the alien bimbos. But -- they push it too far, straight over the edge into Mary Sue-ness, and that comment from Jack is really the epitome of that.
I can understand Mickey's uncritical infatuation with her (even though it bugs me at times), because he's young and she's, presumably, the only girl he's ever gone with; he just doesn't have the experience or emotional distance to have a more mature perspective on her. But -- Jack? Jack, the con man and petty criminal, who's been around the block any number of times, who flirts with (and presumably, if he can swing it, sleeps with) everything that has a pulse, who on top of that has known her for probably no more than a few weeks at most? And on top of that, being from the 51st century, he'd probably see her as something of a primitive, ignorant about the simplest aspects of galactic culture. For Jack to moon over Rose is just ... bizarre. It really feels like the writers are using Jack's mouth to tell us how we ought to feel about their Greatest Creation Ever -- "Rose! She's awesome! Everybody loves her! Don't you love her?" Well, I'd love her a lot more if I'd stop hearing about how great she is while watching her yank Mickey around like a rag doll in order to chase after her precious Doctor.
Watching the Giles episode last night (I really need to look up its actual title!) made me feel more sympathetic towards Rose than I have in awhile. It's much easier to relate to an underdog than to the person at the top of the pecking order. The way that she was feeling jealous and pushed aside, the reminders that she really *isn't* as special as she thought she was -- it felt like it gave her character a balance that she really lost towards the end of the last season. I don't know if they'll keep on like this -- I really hope so, because I think I could really like Rose if the show will allow her to be a real person, with virtues and flaws, rather than reminding us of the Awesomeness of Rose Tyler at every opportunity.
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