sholio: (Who-Rose)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2007-07-09 10:50 pm
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Finished with Doctor Who Season 1


I loved the finale. What can I say ... I have this huge sappy weakness for "last stand" stories. Even if the Daleks STILL remind me more of giant salt shakers than something you'd run away from. (Being attacked by an army of shoulder-high, heavily armed salt shakers is nothing to sneeze at, though.) And Jack in Rambo mode, and the Doctor sending Rose home in the Tardis, and the origins of Bad Wolf ... much love, yes. Even if it's really, really best NOT to think about the time travel too much.

However, I'm starting to have, well ... problems with the way that the Doctor and Rose behave towards the people around them. Rose and the Doctor aren't bad people, but they're not particularly nice people -- it's not that they're deliberately cruel, but they just don't bother to care. Like leaving Jack behind on the space station (not that, I gather, it's a big deal to him or that he even minds; but it's the principle of the thing, dammit -- abandoning your allies on a space station full of dead people in a dead solar system is very bad form) or the way Rose has been treating Mickey, especially given how often he goes out of his way to help her.

Rose and the Doctor are very committed to high ideals -- saving the universe, that sort of thing -- but when it comes to the little, day-to-day things, like, say, behaving like decent human beings towards other people (aside from each other), they fail at it. Whereas, someone like Mickey, or Rose's mother, could care less about the fate of the universe -- what they do instead is protect and help the people they care about. It's a lot easier for me to sympathize with Mickey defending Rose's mom with a bat than to sympathize with Rose exploiting her boyfriend's affection for her in order to obtain his help chasing after the Doctor.

With the exception of each other, they're far more committed to their ideals than to the welfare of individual human beings. It seems like they're willing to give the people around them just enough information and assistance to really get them in trouble, and then turn them loose to fend for themselves -- like taking Rose's genius boy-toy from the museum to the year 200,000 and then abandoning him in an alien environment that he knows nothing about to sink or swim. I realize that the people around them are adults and are responsible for their own decisions, but at some point you *do* have responsibility for the effects of your actions on other people; it's not enough to fall back on the "Well, I know I talked him into it, but it's not my fault he said yes" defense. It's almost like they're little kids playing with toys -- getting what they want out of other people, but failing to notice the effects of their actions on anyone else.

They're willing to sacrifice themselves to save the universe, or apparently each other, but when it comes to anything beyond that, they're kind of self-centered, aren't they?

And sometimes they aren't even willing to take the saving-the-universe step, like the Doctor refusing to push the button to destroy the Daleks. Okay, I understand that he doesn't want to become like them -- that it's a violation of everything he believes in. But, at this point, he's not saving anyone but himself -- he's sacrificing the universe on the altar of his own conscience. The Earth is dead, everyone on the space station is dead; if he activated the device, all he'd be killing would be the Daleks (and himself). By pushing the button, he saves the universe; the only thing he stands to gain by not pushing the button is to keep his hands clean, at the cost of countless lives. Violating his own ideals to save the universe would be a tremendous sacrifice, but it's a sacrifice he wasn't willing to make; he chose himself and his own conscience over the lives of countless innocents.

Luckily Rose took the choice out of his hands, so there were no consequences for his failure to act. Convenient, that.

The ultimate problem here is that I'm finding it harder to empathize with the characters the more I see of them. I can't quite seem to sink into full appreciation of their devotion to each other when that devotion is generally at the expense of everyone else. Jack's comment about saving Rose, that "she's worth it" -- er, I'm not really sure that she is, actually, given that she's done very little lately except for single-mindedly pursuing the Doctor through time and stepping on whoever she has to in order to do that.

My, this has turned into a wee bit of a rant. ^_^ I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the Tennant episodes -- it's just that I'm having trouble right now emotionally engaging with the characters, because more and more they're turning out to be people I feel slightly skeevy empathizing with.

[identity profile] leenys.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 07:09 am (UTC)(link)
The Doctor has always held a sort of "snobbiness" towards the human race. It was very evident in the earlier episodes of the series. He really is a rather crotchety know-it-all. Different incarnations of the character brings different pov's, but for the most part he does think himself superior. I believe his attitude in earlier incarnations might shock you, but then we're talking about someone who is probably something like 900 years old or more at this point and has traveled back and forth and sideways. So he's actually in character with the original concept.

As for Rose..yeah. I like Rose, but she did become too absorbed with the Doc, to the extend of shutting everyone else out. I think that's one reason her story ended, and that it ended like it did.
ext_1981: (Woolsey baby)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 07:15 am (UTC)(link)
Oh yes, I certainly got that about him in the old series, too. It's actually one reason why I was tepid on the idea of watching the new series, because as a character, someone to empathize with, I didn't really find the older Doctors to be people whose heads I could get inside. I think it's just taken me a little while to get to that point with the new Doctor, because he *does* seem to have quite a bit of sympathy for the underdog -- but very little ability to form lasting attachments to other people, it seems, with the exception of his weirdly codependent relationship with Rose. (I don't remember his attachments to the past companions being nearly as close as the one he has to her -- and in fact, I think that's partly what's throwing me, because he's obviously capable of feeling love and sympathy for Rose, which makes it all the more noticeable that he seems to have such a problem feeling it for anyone else. If he saw ALL humans as beneath him, it would be different, but he doesn't seem to view Rose that way, and yet she's hardly done anything, IMHO, to give him a reason to feel that way about her.)

But I don't know how Rose's arc ends, so shhhh, don't tell me! ^_^ I know there's another Companion later, but that's all I know at this point, and all I really want to know.

[identity profile] leenys.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 07:21 am (UTC)(link)
My lips are sealed. *grins*

I think Peter Davison's doc was the most sympathetic, and even he had his days.

[identity profile] klostes.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 08:08 am (UTC)(link)
I found it interesting, actually, that the show seemed to embrace that aspect of the Doctor and Rose, that they're committed to each other and that's about it--and actually, there's a very nice slapdown for both of them in one of the first Season 2 episodes. And the show twists that knife even more in the episode where Giles-from-Buffy gets his Best. Line. Ever. It's kind of odd, actually, but it's one of the things I like about the show, that they're not ignoring the ambiguity of the Doctor's actions.

Actually, I fell even more in love with the show when they did the episode where Rose comes back and she's been missing for a *year*, not just an hour. So... yeah.

Jack. Oh, god, Jack. That's the ONE thing I hated about the season finale, just hated that they left Jack behind, without even a thought! Argh. And then he shows up in Torchwood, the other new series, and he's just so...broken. So not Jack, so wounded because they left him, and it hurt so much to watch him like that instead of the rakish, happy-go-lucky rogue wiht the heart of gold he'd been with the Doctor and Rose. Just... gah. Torchwood is different enough from Dr. Who that it was hard enough to get into, without the grief I felt for Jack.

David Tennant took some getting used to, but I like him now, and while I don't think Season 2 was as awesome as Season 1 over all, it was definitely, definitely worth my time and attention. Season 3, on the other hand...*boggles* Hurry up and get caught up with the rest of us! ;-)
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (doctor who - words)

[personal profile] naye 2007-07-10 08:59 am (UTC)(link)
Interesting meta!

Some of these issues actually come up in the show - they're definitely character flaws, and written as such. People who meet him do react on this. I think - for the Doctor, it's just part of who he is, which is not human. His mind works in different ways than you'd expect from a normal human, and it can make him seem - cruel, even, as Rose finds him in the first episode when he's got plastic!Mickey's head with him, and she's freaking out about her boyfriend being dead and the Doctor really doesn't get it, at first. And then Rose - she's 19. Which is an age where we like to think we're all grown up, but it's still so easy to be influenced by people around you, and when you meet someone who's pretty much a force of nature, personality-wise? She's not mature enough to tell him off for his behaviour, not once she gets used to him. (It does happen, though! Which is good. It's good for him to have people around who ground him; remind him of all those aspects of being human he never quite seems to grasp.)

Not saying you should excuse them everything, but... Well. Alien. Hard for me to hold him by human standards, especially when he does have such enormous depths of compassion. I remember being moved by the scene where he was comforting the dying pig the Slitheen had modified and put in their crashing ship - a pig. And because it had to die scared and alone, he felt sorry for it.

That the Doctor couldn't push that button - the thing is, I think he already has. He's the last of the Time Lords for a reason. He ended the war. He ended the war, and killed all the Dalek, and killed all his people. And it almost broke him. He's really not - well. Rose is helping him heal, but the Doctor you catch glimpses of in the pilot (talking to Rose about being the last, and pleading with the Nesteen Consciousness-glob thing), with the Tree Lady at the end of the world, and with the lone Dalek... The war did quite a number on him. Being the one to pull the metaphorical trigger on no less than two whole civilisations - one of them his own - isn't something someone like him is equipped to handle. Very few beings are equipped to handle something like that, actually. So - yes, it was cowardly to want to avoid going through that again, and for being responsible for wiping out the planet he always seemed to love more than his own home, but. I don't think it's keeping his hands clean (I read him as being very aware that they aren't) as much as being completely unable to force himself to go through with something like that again.

And then there's the writing on the show, which is all following the age-old adage of "if you're not with the Doctor, you're screwed". Watching the Confidentials ("making of" specials for each episode, with interviews with actors and writers and producers and looks at the f/x production and shooting and lots of lovely things like that - they're the same length as an episode, and they were made to air right after the show) actually helped me get less bothered by all the people they were failing to save. It does bother me (I have a whole theory on how reading manga made it worse, because anime/manga usually deals more with the the actual consequences of killing, but that's for another time), but I shifted the blame for that from the characters by putting it squarely on the writers' shoulders. Yeah, you probably shouldn't use authorial intent that way, but... Um. I wanted to. They let people who aren't with the Doctor die to make a point/create tension; that's not his fault. (I kind of suck at not trying to be an apologist, don't I?)
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (doctor who - kitten)

[personal profile] naye 2007-07-10 09:07 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, and before I forget - between "The Parting of the Ways" and "The Christmas Invasion", there's a short little scene that was aired for something called "Children in Need". It doesn't even have a real title (it's usually called something like "Doctor Who Children in Need"), but it's a scene that's pretty important to continuity (not to mention cute), so if you don't have it, definitely try to find it as soon as you can!
ext_2909: (Default)

[identity profile] deaka.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 11:10 am (UTC)(link)
Interesting thoughts. That odd sense of carelessness about Rose and the Doctor was something that bothered me a bit too, especially in the second season where it seems even more pronounced. I do like the way that Doctor Who as a series seems to be aware of the flaws of its characters in an internal sense, as in having those flaws occasionally have consequences. It's not something you see too often on other shows.

Something else that struck me watching Doctor Who was the difference in the way the episodes are structured in terms of the ohnoes big bad thing at the end of the episode, compared with my other scifi staple, Atlantis. Doctor Who seems to often have the bad thing actually *happen* in the end and then somehow be fixed, whereas on Atlantis, the big thing is generally built up to and then averted last minute. I'm probably not even making sense explaining this, but it really stood out to me, and I've been dying to comment on it with someone else who is familiar with SGA.

[/rambling] :p

Oh, and I hope you don't mind that I've friended you. Wanted to keep up with your SGA fics, but I always feel a bit strange friending someone I don't really know very well. So, um, hi, in case you're wondering who I am. ;)
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 12:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh...wow....

We watched Doctor Who a month or two ago and something has always felt off - more with Nine (Christopher Eccleston) than Ten (David Tennant) and we've been trying to ID what it is - that Nine doesn't have the sort of class/decency/something that the Doctor usually has and reading your post was like flashbulbs in my brain.

You're so very right about this and I think that was a lot of what was bothering me. Huh.

*gives you gold star*

[identity profile] alipeeps.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 12:47 pm (UTC)(link)
It's actually called "Barcelona" and it's on the Season 2 DVD boxset (at least, it is on the UK version!) :D

[identity profile] alipeeps.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with so much of this. Particularly about Rose being selfish, because yes, she is, and we see more of that in Season 2. But, as you rightly said, she is 19 and much as she has seen so much in her travels with the Doctor, she is in many ways still very young.. and the young can be incredibly thoughtless and selfish.

I believe RTD also made comment during season 2 (possibly in the Dr Who Confidential about the episode Fear Her?) to that idea of kind of selfishness.. I can't remember the comment exactly but it was something to do with the series building a growing feeling that this cannot last, that they are spinning around the universe, carefree and reckless and that it's got to end, it's starting to catch up with them, the danger and the threat is growing and at some point things are going to go wrong.

Season 2 again also built more on the idea that you expressed above about the Doctor being not human, not held to human standards, and that he is very much broken by what has happened to him, by what he was forced to do to end the time war. And that he can be cold and he can be cruel. There is a darkness in him... and that makes him all the more interesting to me! :D
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (doctor who - snow)

[personal profile] naye 2007-07-10 12:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, neat! I was just going off what I found on Wiki, not yet possessing shiny discs of my own to browse through at my leisure...

[identity profile] alipeeps.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 01:02 pm (UTC)(link)
However, I'm starting to have, well ... problems with the way that the Doctor and Rose behave towards the people around them. Rose and the Doctor aren't bad people, but they're not particularly nice people -- it's not that they're deliberately cruel, but they just don't bother to care. Like leaving Jack behind on the space station (not that, I gather, it's a big deal to him or that he even minds; but it's the principle of the thing, dammit -- abandoning your allies on a space station full of dead people in a dead solar system is very bad form) or the way Rose has been treating Mickey, especially given how often he goes out of his way to help her.

Just wanted to also respond to this specific comment of yours - without wanting to spoil anything for you for future episodes... this specifically is actually touched upon in a late Season 3 episode. And how much do I love that a show like this will leave what seems a loose end like that, something that niggles and seems off, and then actually reference it nearly two whole seasons later and make you look back at that original event with a new perspective? Fantastic. :)

I also feel to a certain extent (and this is reinforced by the following seasons) that in some ways the Dr's selfishness is a deliberate, even forced light-heartedness, almost an avoidance technique. He has been through so much and seen such darkness and I often feel like he is kind of running from him own past, taking Rose on a whirlwind trip of adventure and fun and games through time and space and very deliberately NOT letting himself dwell on the negatives and the consequences. He was had to make terrible decisions in the past - and often has to take those hard choices again and be the responsible one, when he has to - and I feel sometimes he has deliberately taken on the role of a wanderer, a thrill-seeker, to escape even for a short while from that terrible responsibility.


Can't wait for you to get into the Tennant episodes
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (doctor who - making it all)

[personal profile] naye 2007-07-10 01:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Yep, I remember RTD saying something along those lines - and Billie Piper, too. So they're very aware of the fact that the characters have these flaws, and there are consequences to it. And I agree - it really is one of the more fascinating themes that they explore in seasons 2 & 3! That the Doctor isn't human, and what that means; how it affects the people around him. (I love the Doctor so much - I wouldn't have him any other way! But it is so true that he isn't perfect, and isn't even always nice...)
ext_3572: (Default)

[identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 01:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I pretty much agree on this take on the Doctor. Well, not so much that his light-heartedness is always forced - it is sometimes, but he genuinely does enjoy himself a lot of the time. But the way he doesn't engage with most of the people he meets, to me it seems to be a survival instinct. The Doctor can see the whole of time-and-space - what exactly that means is rather up in the air, but it seems like he's got a view of the big picture on a scale that humans are hardly able to conceive. And death and destruction are an integral, eternal part of that picture, a part that the Doctor can barely stand to look at - old wounds, these days, and he tries not to get them ripped open again.

He can care globally/galactically/universally, he can fight for the future of the human race. But caring for individuals...if he cares too deeply for all the people he meets in his travels, he'd snap in a matter of days. He can risk having a few companions, a few people he can protect personally, and will do anything for, to stave off loneliness. But people die around him, a lot, and he couldn't save all of them no matter what he did...I don't think he can avoid that; he or the TARDIS is drawn to trouble, and trouble follows him (much of it not really his fault so much as the fault of being what he is). He does what he can to help, but... His emotional distance is the distance of an ER doctor in a constant state of emergency, always in triage mode, care for who can be cared for, savor your victories, and don't look too closely at who you're losing. In the Ninth Doctor I think this trait is magnified, because the war is so very much still in his memory; he's trying to escape, trying to run about having fun, but every time things go south - as they always do - he's on the battlefield again.

I find the Doctor fascinating because he is capable of such compassion, and yet can be so cold, so seemingly unfeeling. He loves the human race absolutely and yet gets so frustrated with humans. He'll fight to his last breath to save life, but he's not nearly as affected by death as one would expect him to be. (and I love the way the show keeps returning to these themes. The Doctor's the hero, but he's far from perfect...and I rather love him for it...)

[identity profile] alipeeps.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 02:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh gosh, WORD to all of that - you expressed everything I feel about this character but so much more eloquently than I! :)

Addendum to a specific point - I agree he does seem to genuinely enjoy himself and when I spoke of his light-heartedness being forced that was probably not the best word.. I think what I meant was probably deliberate. Not so much that he is forcing himself to have fun and enjoy things, more that he has made a choice to have fun and enjoy himself and not dwell on things if he can avoid it.
ext_3572: (Default)

[identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 02:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Agreement with everything (big surprise, no?) Though a lot of the Doctor, it's even a question of how much is it a totally alien mindset, and how much is just what any sentient being would be like after over 900 years of witnessing time & space. I went on about this more in a comment reply to [livejournal.com profile] alipeeps below, but I think some of the Doctor's problem is that he sees too much of the big picture. It's not even that he doesn't see the details, so much as that he can't allow himself to. Opening his heart to all the people he meet would just kill him over and over, because wherever he goes, people die...(I admit to being perturbed by the death toll of DW; I think it comes of being a horror show of sorts, in that they're trying to scare, a lot of the time, and there's nothing more scary than death...)

And the Daleks, yeah, I felt the same; it wasn't that he was selfishly putting his own conscience above the fate of the universe, so much as that he was too weak to do it. Rose totally saved his bacon there...and still, to me, I'm not sure what she did was 'right'. The Daleks are monsters, but...they could be more. "Dalek" proved they're sentient beings. Committing genocide...again...is that right? (one wonders what Ten would have done...)

I love the show for how the Doctor is the hero, but you're not supposed to blindly accept everything he does as the right thing - he screws up, he makes a lot of mistakes. And a lot of times there just isn't a right answer, and the Doctor himself isn't perfect - far from; he's badly damaged, an emotional basketcase. But he's trying; he's doing the best he can, for all his flaws and faults. And he's never on the wrong side - even if he's not always on the right one - so you can cheer him on. Or at least I can!
ext_3572: (Default)

[identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 02:18 pm (UTC)(link)
...actually it occurs to me that the Doctor is pretty much Dr. Cox after 900 years...
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (scrubs - SCRUBS)

[personal profile] naye 2007-07-10 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Heeeeee~! Yes. Yes, he is. Wow. ...your brain scares me. ♥
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (doctor who - going home)

[personal profile] naye 2007-07-10 02:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Ditto, to your comment below. ♥ Especially about him actually having fun - he wouldn't do it if he didn't. Having Rose along, seeing the universe through her eyes - that helps, too. But he does still have his own sense of wonder - places that are beautiful, people that are interesting, he still gets a kick out of them.

Being alive for 900 years old would be enough to make his mindset alien, if it wasn't already, yes. And leaving people behind is a protection mechanism, is necessary. The moment he stops to really think and feel, the moment he starts taking the responsibility he probably should for people whose lives he screws up - that's the moment he'll break, utterly.

Take "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" - the moment at the end, where everybody lives. At how he's so incredibly joyous and exalted - that's the depth of compassion he's capable of. That's how much he wants everybody to live. Every time. And that he can't do that, can't protect everyone - and even if he does, they'll all die so soon anyway... Yeah. I think "emotional basketcase" covers it all pretty nicely.
ext_1981: (Woolsey baby)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 04:09 pm (UTC)(link)
So not Jack, so wounded because they left him, and it hurt so much to watch him like that instead of the rakish, happy-go-lucky rogue wiht the heart of gold he'd been with the Doctor and Rose.

Oh, ouch. That makes it worse, because based on everything that I'd seen about the character so far, I'd been assuming that he comes from the same mentality that they do -- that it wouldn't really bother him in particular to be left behind, because he's just happy-go-lucky roaming through space and never really had that much attachment to them, either. And knowing that it's not like that, that he did feel abandoned and that it hurt him a lot -- okay, OW. It bothers me even more now. Although my husband pointed out, when I did some "GAH THEY LEFT JACK" flailing, that the Doctor didn't necessarily know he'd come back to life. Only Rose knew, and she was so out of it with the Heart of the Tardis that even she might not have remembered -- so it may not have been thoughtlessness so much as just assuming that he was dead. (Although, really, it would have been nice if they'd checked!)

I like to think that the show is going to address this, because at this point it feels like the Doctor and Rose are being held up on a pedastal as if they can't do any wrong, while in reality they're doing wrong everywhere they go -- I think I mainly just want the show to acknowledge that.
ext_1981: (Woolsey baby)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 04:26 pm (UTC)(link)
I certainly don't mind you friending me! :)

I'd actually been comparing it to Atlantis in my head -- I can't really help it, because Atlantis has a lot of darkness, too, especially as the series goes on, and yet the darkness in SGA and the characters' dubious moral choices doesn't taint my enjoyment of the show the way that it's starting to with Doctor Who (even though it does make me a little morally queasy sometimes); I was trying to figure out why that is. I think the difference is that in SGA, the morally questionable things they've done have happened because they're trying their damnedest to do the right thing -- betrayal in Progeny, mass-murder in Misbegotten, happened because they weren't going to stand by and let Atlantis and Earth and their friends be destroyed. In the broadest moral sense, it really isn't that different from what goes on in Doctor Who, but on the show, it feels different -- there's no other way I can put it. There are times when I really don't like it, but on a visceral level, I can sympathize with it. Whereas in Doctor Who, it seems like Rose and the Doctor *only* have that level of loyalty to each other, and the callousness towards everyone else is much more pronounced -- they really don't *care*. SGA tends to leave you with a strong feeling of they really shouldn't be doing this, acknowledged (usually) in canon through one or more of the main characters; I don't really get the same feeling from Doctor Who.
ext_1981: (Woolsey baby)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 04:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, yay! Glad it's not just me! And like I was just commenting to someone else above, the Stargate shows have a lot of darkness in them, too, as far as dubious moral choices the main characters make, but it doesn't bother me as much because at least it's acknowledged within the main group of canon characters that they're doing something wrong. There's debate and at least someone says something along the lines of "we shouldn't be doing this". Whereas with Doctor Who, it's just unthinkingly callous, the way they treat other people...

But other people have also raised a lot of good issues in their comments as far as *why* they behave that way -- off to address them.

[identity profile] sgatazmy.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 04:31 pm (UTC)(link)
You said:

"However, I'm starting to have, well ... problems with the way that the Doctor and Rose behave towards the people around them. Rose and the Doctor aren't bad people, but they're not particularly nice people -- it's not that they're deliberately cruel, but they just don't bother to care. Like leaving Jack behind on the space station (not that, I gather, it's a big deal to him or that he even minds; but it's the principle of the thing, dammit -- abandoning your allies on a space station full of dead people in a dead solar system is very bad form) or the way Rose has been treating Mickey, especially given how often he goes out of his way to help her."

Yes, I never did understand that! And if she was able to bring people back, did she bring back others? I was a little confused there.

I actually like the doctor because he is really a bit of an arrogant jerk but yet very caring. I do see what you are saying, but I've always been able to empathize with him. He's a man used to traveling mostly alone, or so it seems.

I don't know, I actually miss the ninth doctor he was so good at cocky.

[identity profile] klostes.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, good grief, could I have said "actually" any more times during that reply? *is embarrassed* And why are people surprised that a) I'm a writer and b) I don't do "off-the-cuff" that well? Time to edit, peoples! Time to edit! ;-)

In my defense, it was 1 a.m. here when I wrote that.

They do address what happened; we find out more about these events late in Season 3. I will say it was not a random thing; it's just what it looks like: Jack was very deliberately left behind, by the Doctor. There's no "get off scott-free" card with this one. But like someone below said, when the explanation comes, it definitely gives a new perspective to what happened. (Sorry, to say any more would involve major spoilers.)

But, yeah. In the meantime, we have broken Jack. *whimper* I think he was that carefree roaming through space cool dude--until he met them. And he fell in love, with both Rose and the Doctor, wiht the TARDIS, and with their crazy combination of adventure and fun and oh, yes, let's save a world today if we don't destroy it first. I think he felt like he was home for the first time in a very, very long time. He belonged. And then they left him behind in a horrible, horrible place.

Oh, so broken, so very, very broken. /sigh/ And John Barrowman sells that SO very well. There are a few scenes in Torchwood where other people are dealing with enormous loss and grief and it's kind of his fault/responsibility, and the look on his face in those scenes... gah. He's just breaking open all over again, and you can tell he's never, ever healed from what Rose and the Doctor did to him.

But, being Jack, he does have a plan. ;-) And oh, what a plan it is. So it takes two more seasons of Doctor Who and one entire season of Torchwood, but I do promise you they address all of this, in a very, VERY satisfactory manner in terms of storytelling. Whether you find the actual reasons and events satisfactory, we'll have to see when you finally get there.
ext_1981: (Woolsey baby)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-07-10 04:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I also feel to a certain extent (and this is reinforced by the following seasons) that in some ways the Dr's selfishness is a deliberate, even forced light-heartedness, almost an avoidance technique. He has been through so much and seen such darkness and I often feel like he is kind of running from him own past, taking Rose on a whirlwind trip of adventure and fun and games through time and space and very deliberately NOT letting himself dwell on the negatives and the consequences.

That interpretation definitely works for me -- it fits really well with what we've seen so far. But it still doesn't really leave me wanting to spend that much time in the Doctor's company, you know what I mean? I can totally get behind this rationale for why he behaves the way he does -- but if there's no evolution in the way he acts, no abating of the callousness, then he's still not that sympathetic to me. I'm actually not really sure how you'd do that on the show, because I don't want moralizing and I don't want the hero to be a paragon of virtue ... but right now it feels like there's something a little bit lacking in the way the characters are portrayed. It's not even unrealistic; in fact it's a lot more realistic than having the main characters be heroic and upstanding. it's just that I'm left, more and more, wanting the heroes to *lose* because I have more sympathy for the characters around them than I do for them.

And how much do I love that a show like this will leave what seems a loose end like that, something that niggles and seems off, and then actually reference it nearly two whole seasons later and make you look back at that original event with a new perspective?

Sweet! I'm really loving the continuity to the show so far. It's very obvious that they've put a lot of thought into it and spend a lot of time laying groundwork for future events. I really love that in a show.

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