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Supernatural season finale (spoilers, obviously)
Okay. Let me get something out of the way. I love Supernatural. I love the boys, I love the relationship they have, I love the guest stars, I love the whole concept of their world. It's a cool show.
I just didn't really like this episode very much.
*hides from friend list*
This is exerpted and adapted and kinda cross-posted from what I wrote in the comments over at![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
derry667's LJ. I didn't realize I had this much to say about the episode until I started commenting on HER episode commentary ... but hey, whaddya know, I'm still the Long Comment Queen.
There were individual moments and scenes in the episode that I loved to pieces, in all their cheesy glory. But as a whole ... I think pretty much any of the scenarios I'd come up with, during the week, would have been more dramatic and fulfilling than what we actually ended up with.
Got a pretty high opinion of myself, don't I? *grin*
The trouble is, after last week's apocalyptic gorefest of character carnage, I was all geared up for something even bigger and explodier. Edge-of-your-seat tension and special effects and the feeling of laying it all on the line, building up to some kind of explosive finale -- that's what I was expecting.
But that's not what we *got*. What we got was a low-key character-focused episode, and -- dare I say it -- a rather scattered and heavy-handed one. The moment that really pushed it over the edge for me from fun cheese into "Oh please save me now" was John Winchester smiling at his boys while everybody cries and then I swear to freakin' Jesus ASCENDING TO HEAVEN IN A SHAFT OF LIGHT. I ... I ... WHAT?
Like I said, there were moments I really enjoyed. Dean talking to his brother's body (even though it was a leeeeeetle over-the-top), Dean selling his soul, Bobby's "OMFGWTF?" face when Sam showed up on his doorstep ... and I really *loved* that Dean's bargain came out into the open at the end rather than doing the big-secret thing again. And Ellen being alive! OMG, I love Ellen. And Bobby. And, since I was totally unspoiled (even though I'd kinda guessed something like this might happen), John showing up behind the demon and attacking it -- that gave me happy little chills. (Even if most of my happiness at seeing John was negated by what happened to him thereafter.) I'm not the world's biggest fan of John Winchester, but that moment when his face appears out of the gloom ... eee!
But ... it didn't hold together as a strong episode. The sense of suspense and tension, leading in from last week's episode, just completely unraveled as literally days go by between scenes. We're *told* that time is of the essence and portents of demonic activity are happening and so forth, but what we actually *see* is the characters moseying around not accomplishing things very fast. I know there's only a limited amount of stuff that they can pack into an episode, and I know that they had a lot of territory to cover -- but, well, that was the problem, wasn't it? Last week was so very suspenseful because things happened FAST. It was very tightly plotted, very quick. This week, well ... it almost felt like it was meandering by comparison. And when the suspense would start to ratchet up, we'd kinda veer off the main plot. Take the scene at the crossroads with Dean selling his soul. To me, it didn't really feel part and parcel of the main plot with the yellow-eyed demon. I mean, yes, that's WHY Dean is selling his soul, indirectly, but the way the scene played out, it could have happened in ANY episode. You'd think the female demon would have known that the other one was inciting Armageddon and have some kind of angle on it (using Dean to get herself an angle on ol' Yellow Eyes, for example) but she's just business-as-usual, doing a soul deal like normal. It's kind of hard to feel the tension of the onrushing end of the world when even the demons aren't too bothered about it.
And then we have the big reunion at Bobby's place, and rather than "OMG ARMAGEDDON", the tone is more like "big ol' road trip to save the world, and don't forget to stop at Six Flags on the way back!" I mean, yeah, demons, etc., but past the point where Ellen showed up alive, I wasn't really scared that we were going to lose anybody major. Last week *should* have had me in a frenzy of "My God, what if they kill Bobby and Ellen?" but the tone of the episode just didn't support that kind of worry.
And the hugging, the crying ... hmm. I'm a big squishy sucker for characters who care about each other. Friendship and brotherhood makes me EEEE! And I did enjoy this ... but ... it was the kind of squirmy enjoyment that comes from reading an over-the-top h/c fanfic -- where I know I'm gonna keep reading to get my fix, but I wouldn't really want to *admit* to having read and enjoyed said fanfic. A lot of this episode felt that way to me. On the one hand, I was getting an emotional high off of it, but on the other hand, it was kind of an embarrassed and uncomfortable emotional high, like I want to look around and make sure nobody notices me watching this ...
And yet, it *was* a justifiable scenario for all of the angst! It really was! I mean, Dean's brother dies, and then comes back from the dead, and his dad comes (temporarily) back from the dead ... cue up the chick-flick weepies. You certainly can't say it was unrealistic, given the circumstances. But it wasn't the tone I would have preferred. I guess that I like my emotionality tempered by a kind of distance. I don't want to have it all handed to me; I want to be able to fill in some of the gaps myself, if that makes any sense? Strangely, this episode almost made me *less* enthusiastic about watching it next year, because I kinda feel like we've seen the characters put through just about every possible emotional pace that they have. I'm not sure where the show could go from here. I'm not sure where I would *want* it to go.
And, of course, there was just a buttload of meta in my last Supernatural post dissecting Dean's insecurities and self-loathing, which I kept insisting he didn't actually HAVE (at least not as he is commently characterized by fandom). Hey, I DID say that I thought I was pulling back TOO far in an attempt not to go too deep! It's pretty completely canon now. And, again ... on the one hand I just want to pet Dean (poor Dean!), and yet, on the other hand, I kinda LIKE being left to read between the lines, rather than having the character dissected in the open like that...
Oh, but I DID love the final scene where the tables are turned and Sam becomes the protector rather than the protected one, though. Loved it so much. And Dean finally sees, really SEES, that his family cares as much about him as he does about them. I mean, given that this episode went out of its way to point out that he *does* have trouble with his own self-worth ... you could see on his face at the end, there, that he GOT it. Sam's willing to die for him, and he *knows* that now, he *understands*. I did get a lot of squee out of that.
I just wish the entire Armageddon story hadn't been such a let-down. I know I'm being whiny about it. It's just ... I have high expectations for this show, and it didn't deliver, and WAAAHHH. They spent two seasons building up to this final confrontation, and it was ... over in about five minutes. I know it's cheesy and cliched, but I wanted EXPLOSIONS damn it! *g*
A mediocre episode of SPN is *still* a really enjoyable watch, but I DID feel like this episode was kind of mediocre compared to what it could have been, and I was expecting a lot more. *grump*
Okay, I'll stop harshing everybody's squee and go away now. And I'll turn in my fangirl card at the door. *grin*
ETA: Okay, seriously, one more thought and THEN I'll shut up. Reflecting on the episode and my reactions to it, I think what really bugs me is that I felt like it was a really lame conclusion to the whole demon arc, but the writers tried to buy me off with a bunch of fanservice so I wouldn't NOTICE that the plot doesn't really hold together. *That's* what really twists my chain, I think.
I just didn't really like this episode very much.
*hides from friend list*
This is exerpted and adapted and kinda cross-posted from what I wrote in the comments over at
derry667's LJ. I didn't realize I had this much to say about the episode until I started commenting on HER episode commentary ... but hey, whaddya know, I'm still the Long Comment Queen.There were individual moments and scenes in the episode that I loved to pieces, in all their cheesy glory. But as a whole ... I think pretty much any of the scenarios I'd come up with, during the week, would have been more dramatic and fulfilling than what we actually ended up with.
Got a pretty high opinion of myself, don't I? *grin*
The trouble is, after last week's apocalyptic gorefest of character carnage, I was all geared up for something even bigger and explodier. Edge-of-your-seat tension and special effects and the feeling of laying it all on the line, building up to some kind of explosive finale -- that's what I was expecting.
But that's not what we *got*. What we got was a low-key character-focused episode, and -- dare I say it -- a rather scattered and heavy-handed one. The moment that really pushed it over the edge for me from fun cheese into "Oh please save me now" was John Winchester smiling at his boys while everybody cries and then I swear to freakin' Jesus ASCENDING TO HEAVEN IN A SHAFT OF LIGHT. I ... I ... WHAT?
Like I said, there were moments I really enjoyed. Dean talking to his brother's body (even though it was a leeeeeetle over-the-top), Dean selling his soul, Bobby's "OMFGWTF?" face when Sam showed up on his doorstep ... and I really *loved* that Dean's bargain came out into the open at the end rather than doing the big-secret thing again. And Ellen being alive! OMG, I love Ellen. And Bobby. And, since I was totally unspoiled (even though I'd kinda guessed something like this might happen), John showing up behind the demon and attacking it -- that gave me happy little chills. (Even if most of my happiness at seeing John was negated by what happened to him thereafter.) I'm not the world's biggest fan of John Winchester, but that moment when his face appears out of the gloom ... eee!
But ... it didn't hold together as a strong episode. The sense of suspense and tension, leading in from last week's episode, just completely unraveled as literally days go by between scenes. We're *told* that time is of the essence and portents of demonic activity are happening and so forth, but what we actually *see* is the characters moseying around not accomplishing things very fast. I know there's only a limited amount of stuff that they can pack into an episode, and I know that they had a lot of territory to cover -- but, well, that was the problem, wasn't it? Last week was so very suspenseful because things happened FAST. It was very tightly plotted, very quick. This week, well ... it almost felt like it was meandering by comparison. And when the suspense would start to ratchet up, we'd kinda veer off the main plot. Take the scene at the crossroads with Dean selling his soul. To me, it didn't really feel part and parcel of the main plot with the yellow-eyed demon. I mean, yes, that's WHY Dean is selling his soul, indirectly, but the way the scene played out, it could have happened in ANY episode. You'd think the female demon would have known that the other one was inciting Armageddon and have some kind of angle on it (using Dean to get herself an angle on ol' Yellow Eyes, for example) but she's just business-as-usual, doing a soul deal like normal. It's kind of hard to feel the tension of the onrushing end of the world when even the demons aren't too bothered about it.
And then we have the big reunion at Bobby's place, and rather than "OMG ARMAGEDDON", the tone is more like "big ol' road trip to save the world, and don't forget to stop at Six Flags on the way back!" I mean, yeah, demons, etc., but past the point where Ellen showed up alive, I wasn't really scared that we were going to lose anybody major. Last week *should* have had me in a frenzy of "My God, what if they kill Bobby and Ellen?" but the tone of the episode just didn't support that kind of worry.
And the hugging, the crying ... hmm. I'm a big squishy sucker for characters who care about each other. Friendship and brotherhood makes me EEEE! And I did enjoy this ... but ... it was the kind of squirmy enjoyment that comes from reading an over-the-top h/c fanfic -- where I know I'm gonna keep reading to get my fix, but I wouldn't really want to *admit* to having read and enjoyed said fanfic. A lot of this episode felt that way to me. On the one hand, I was getting an emotional high off of it, but on the other hand, it was kind of an embarrassed and uncomfortable emotional high, like I want to look around and make sure nobody notices me watching this ...
And yet, it *was* a justifiable scenario for all of the angst! It really was! I mean, Dean's brother dies, and then comes back from the dead, and his dad comes (temporarily) back from the dead ... cue up the chick-flick weepies. You certainly can't say it was unrealistic, given the circumstances. But it wasn't the tone I would have preferred. I guess that I like my emotionality tempered by a kind of distance. I don't want to have it all handed to me; I want to be able to fill in some of the gaps myself, if that makes any sense? Strangely, this episode almost made me *less* enthusiastic about watching it next year, because I kinda feel like we've seen the characters put through just about every possible emotional pace that they have. I'm not sure where the show could go from here. I'm not sure where I would *want* it to go.
And, of course, there was just a buttload of meta in my last Supernatural post dissecting Dean's insecurities and self-loathing, which I kept insisting he didn't actually HAVE (at least not as he is commently characterized by fandom). Hey, I DID say that I thought I was pulling back TOO far in an attempt not to go too deep! It's pretty completely canon now. And, again ... on the one hand I just want to pet Dean (poor Dean!), and yet, on the other hand, I kinda LIKE being left to read between the lines, rather than having the character dissected in the open like that...
Oh, but I DID love the final scene where the tables are turned and Sam becomes the protector rather than the protected one, though. Loved it so much. And Dean finally sees, really SEES, that his family cares as much about him as he does about them. I mean, given that this episode went out of its way to point out that he *does* have trouble with his own self-worth ... you could see on his face at the end, there, that he GOT it. Sam's willing to die for him, and he *knows* that now, he *understands*. I did get a lot of squee out of that.
I just wish the entire Armageddon story hadn't been such a let-down. I know I'm being whiny about it. It's just ... I have high expectations for this show, and it didn't deliver, and WAAAHHH. They spent two seasons building up to this final confrontation, and it was ... over in about five minutes. I know it's cheesy and cliched, but I wanted EXPLOSIONS damn it! *g*
A mediocre episode of SPN is *still* a really enjoyable watch, but I DID feel like this episode was kind of mediocre compared to what it could have been, and I was expecting a lot more. *grump*
Okay, I'll stop harshing everybody's squee and go away now. And I'll turn in my fangirl card at the door. *grin*
ETA: Okay, seriously, one more thought and THEN I'll shut up. Reflecting on the episode and my reactions to it, I think what really bugs me is that I felt like it was a really lame conclusion to the whole demon arc, but the writers tried to buy me off with a bunch of fanservice so I wouldn't NOTICE that the plot doesn't really hold together. *That's* what really twists my chain, I think.
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As a *series* finale I think I might have enjoyed it more, because it left me feeling like there wasn't many places left to go. (Kind of like the Serenity movie did ... leaving aside my one BIG gripe with the movie -- which anyone who's seen it can probably guess; I think it's everybody's -- I felt as if it wrapped up the series so thoroughly that I don't really feel a need to see anything else, even though there are still plot threads hanging.)
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Aw! I thought I had a shot at that crown! :-P
Okay, I'll stop harshing everybody's squee and go away now. And I'll turn in my fangirl card at the door. *grin*
You and me both, mate. I might just smuggle my fangirl card out and use it as a bookmark until next season starts.
Okay, seriously, one more thought and THEN I'll shut up. Reflecting on the episode and my reactions to it, I think what really bugs me is that I felt like it was a really lame conclusion to the whole demon arc, but the writers tried to buy me off with a bunch of fanservice so I wouldn't NOTICE that the plot doesn't really hold together. *That's* what really twists my chain, I think.
Y'know, I think you may have hit the crux of it. The heavy-handedness of it all. The hugging. The mega-slice of emo!Dean. The appearance of Daddy Winchester - back from hell and all smiles and tears. It's like they thought if we whack the fans with all the stuff they've been clamouring for for a year or more, then they won't bitch about how flawed it all is. And what elephant in the corner?
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LOL! There should be a pageant, darn it!
And what elephant in the corner?
Yeaaahhhhh. Although as some of the other comments have pointed out, there is a certain series finale sort of feel to this episode, and it almost makes more sense that way -- the same kind of rushed, "give the fans everything they need and wrap up all the plot threads" feeling that series finales often do (like the SG-1 finale did, kind of). Except the show came back. And yet we've seen just about everything, so ... now what?
Not that I'm saying it's a bad thing it's been renewed! Just ... it almost feels like they wrapped it up, which is downright weird.
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And it's fanfic. I keep saying this and I mean it. Not just because the plots are from fanfic cliches. But because those hidden places, the subtext of character motivation and emotion that usually is found between the lines and only held to the light in fic, is open and explicit in SPN. If smarm and h/c are emotional porn, then SPN is pornographic in a way few shows are. It gives us the nudity and the penetration and the money shots.
Erotica can be sexier than porn because it leaves things to the imagination; porn is visceral, cheap, but satsifying in its way. The one problem is that it always has to have a climax, but to keep that climax satisfying, it has to keep showing more, revealing more, or else it gets boring. Which is the problem SPN is having, that it's given so much fanservice that it's running out of places to go. I think it's got enough for another season but I've got doubts it can maintain it after that.
I guess, for me, I completely agree there wasn't much there besides fanservice - but I was okay with that, because it's why I'm watching.
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So, in other words, most of my comment below can be summed up with what
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Which is the problem SPN is having, that it's given so much fanservice that it's running out of places to go.
Which I think was at least part of the reason for my dissatisfaction with the finale. I hate to say it, but I'm finding myself in sympathy with shippers who complain that as soon as "their" couple hooks up, their reason for watching the show diminishes. I used to think that was kind of an odd point of view ... but you know, it really *is* largely about the "will they or won't they" suspense, isn't it? Only in our case, it's "will they acknowledge their bond? will they touch each other?" And we get off on the almost-but-not-quite suspense of it -- so much so, that when they actually DO THE DEED (a different sort of deed in friendship h/c, but same idea) the suspense-o-meter drops to nothing. We know how they'd react under pretty much every conceivable circumstance, so where else can the characters go now?
I'm finding myself having similar problems with "Nightlife", which I'm currently reading -- and enjoying, but I'm not finding as brain-grabbing and emotionally stimulating as the Dresden books, which I really *wasn't* all that fond of at first ... but they grew on me slowly, as the characters grew from strangers to a very tight group of friends, whereas with Nightlife, it's all out there in the open, and it's almost ... kinda ... sorta ... not as much fun that way. When it comes to h/c, I'd rather be surprised by little snatches of it, than have it given to me in big handfuls -- and that's really a surprising thing to realize about myself.
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Yes! To "Nightlife" - yes, exactly that! They're enjoyable, and have plenty of stuff that could be fandom gold, but it's too fandom already. It's all there. You can't imagine Nik and Cal loving each other more than they already do, caring for each other more, risking more, giving more, or going through more hell together than they already have - than they're doing, in the books. The writing is brilliant, the characters really great, but it leaves nothing for me. It's all there. And this makes it the perfect example of needing gaps to fill in! For fanning purposes, a story like this works much better as a fic. While with the Dresden books, you're not prepared for the emotional impact you suddenly discovers it has on you, when Harry gets some unexpected help, or makes a new ally, or goes all out to protect someone he cares about... It helps that the rest of the books are funny and awesome, but I fell in love with it because it has those moments.
And, also yes to suddenly understanding the shippers a whole lot better...
Okay, I haven't had food yet, and my brain doesn't work well on no food, so no more discussion right now. But I'll be back! After food, or after sleep I don't know, but I have so much to answer! ♥
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YES. It's actually the surprise that gives me a lot of the "high" that I get from that sort of thing, which is something that I'd kinda known for a long time; I love it when books -- TV can do it too, but it's mostly books -- throw in those lovely emotional twists that I don't see coming, and I get *more* out of it when I don't expect it. My favorite characters are often the ones that I didn't expect to like in the beginning, and my favorite character relationships are very often those that I wasn't expecting -- maybe I kinda *hoped* that it would go in that direction, but it's just the most pleasant of pleasant surprises when you don't expect it and then it does.
If it's *really* out there on the surface, I think that my inner contrarian starts to rear its head. That's really one of the big reasons why I can enjoy a romance that's part of, say, an SF or adventure story, but romance as a *genre* leaves me cold -- it's not that I have a problem with characters falling in love, it's that when the falling in love can be seen coming from a mile away and you know they'll get together at the end, I start feeling manipulated and rooting for the other side just to be ornery. *g*
"Nightlife" is treading perilously close to that line. I do enjoy the brother stuff, but at the same time -- I kinda want to see Nik get some kind of life that doesn't revolve around his little brother. I find that I'm gravitating towards Robin as a favorite character, and his growing friendships with the boys, because I didn't expect him. I didn't know that I was going to like him, didn't know he'd become a main(ish) character, and at this point -- about 2/3 of the way through the book -- I have no idea where his relationship with anyone is going to go. And I revel in the uncertainty.
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That explains romance! Or rather, why I get annoyed with stories that are all about romance, but don't mind it when it happens along the way. (And I love happy married couples. Probably because they're already past the stage with all of the misunderstandings and angst and potentially annoying stuff, and just count each other as their most important person, and they complement each other, and that always gets me, no matter what the character constellation - partners, marrieds, best friends, rivals...)
I also completely agree on "Nightlife". It's pushing all my buttons, but it kind of knows its doing it, and while it's a fun kind of read, I don't need to see where the characters are going, because I know Nik will do anything for Cal, and I know Cal would die for Nik, and while there is an "aww"-factor to seeing them in action, it all plays out as expected. And that's where Robin comes in, and I again have to agree 100% with you - he's my favourite character, hands down, especially after also reading "Moonshine"! Because he's more ambiguous, because he's not an open book to me as a reader, because he claims to be all about looking out for number one - and that means that his caring comes as a that pleasant surprise you were talking about! When someone like Robin goes out of his way to do something for another character, that's noteworthy. That's the kind of thing that makes me squee. Which explains the Dresden books, because like you said - they're full of that stuff! ♥
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Of course, that doesn't mean I don't think they should have done more with the YED, taken a page out of Writing 101 and shown, not just told us about the big apocalyptic stuff, and not brought John back just to turn him into sparkly lights. Which is why I'm happy you wrote this post! Then I don't have to! Someone's pointed it out already, I can nod and agree, an go back to my warm fuzzies over the hug and Bobby and Ellen and Dean's smile at the end. ♥
I have to wonder, though - it was teleplayed by Eric Kripke, and I'm wondering if he's becoming something of a weak link, writing-wise. Okay, not weaker than John Shiban and the Amazing Plots of Nonsense, but... Most of the really intense, awesome episodes? Have been written by Raelle Tucker and Sera Gamble. And Kripke's a fanboy, and clearly loves the brother-stuff, and creating the series was genius, but. I'm not saying he does a bad job and I hate him, but... Well. It was the only episode of the season he's written since "In my Time of Dying", and while he might still be a great idea-guy, and driving force behind the series, maybe other people write it better? ...just typing it out makes me feel bad, because he created the whole thing, but, but...
What I'm trying to say is that I still have enormous faith in the series as a whole, because there are people writing who I believe would have done a season finale more - probably more like what you wanted (last episode was written by Sera), and that I would have liked even more than I did this. Okay, part of the thing that seems to be getting to you is that they wrapped it all up very nicely, and that was probably a production staff decision - one I think was a good one, because in case they didn't get renewed, this wouldn't have been a bad way to end the series! I've had too many shows cancelled on me on cliffhangers, and it sucks. But. We have a couple of extremely talented writers on staff, who get the characters, and can write them intense without going over the top, and have a wonderful way with subtext (Dean has self-worth issues), without having to turn it text (YED and Bobby both commenting on said issues).
Oh, and this! I want to be able to fill in some of the gaps myself, if that makes any sense?
Makes sense. So much sense. In my last deep discussion on the whys and wherefores of fanning (especially h/c fanning) with
Anyway! No need to hide from me, at least. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and besides, this gave me a great opportunity for interesting fandom discussion. ♥
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Supernatural has my Fandom Immunity card right now
Oh, I LOVE this term, I love it with big shiny hearts that I can't currently remember how to make because it is late and I have a mind like a sieve! Because that's such a PERFECT way to describe the way that it feels being in a new or happily-obsessive fandom, and seeing the flaws but not really wanting to meta and obsess over them. You know how sometimes you have a concept in the back of your head, but no word to describe it? And then someone GIVES you a word? This is one of those cases!
I've sometimes wondered why on things I'm not really that fannish about, I'll dissect the hell out of their flaws (*cough*LOST*cough), but when I'm really fannish about something, I don't really want to do that (depending on how severely flawed canon actually IS, of course). It's not that I don't acknowledge the *existence* of a certain amount of stupidity in canon, I just don't want to dwell on it. Like glossing over the flaws of a particularly annoying, but endearing, boyfriend. ;)
(Not that I'm saying SPN is like that... really!)
I can nod and agree, an go back to my warm fuzzies over the hug and Bobby and Ellen and Dean's smile at the end.
*grin* And there WERE some really nice fuzzies. Okay, I kinda guessed Ellen would be alive when they didn't find a body, but it's still SO nice to have it confirmed. And last episode, I was freaking out on Bobby's behalf. *fans on Bobby for a minute* I don't know how they do it, with these guest stars who are so endearing even though we really don't see all that much of them! I like their casting department. Mostly.
It was the only episode of the season he's written since "In my Time of Dying", and while he might still be a great idea-guy, and driving force behind the series, maybe other people write it better? ...just typing it out makes me feel bad, because he created the whole thing, but, but...
I kinda know what you mean, both about the feeling guilty (because damn it, he's the *creator*) and about the "well, maybe someone else can write it better..." (And, are we ABSOLUTELY sure he's a guy? *g*)
Mainstream American comics are probably the best example of this sort of thing that comes to mind, because in a lot of cases, the "best" writers -- by which I mean, naturally, the ones who most closely approximate my own way of seeing the characters *g* -- are not the original creators of those characters. Maggin, for example. Or Keith Giffin, who (IMHO) is the only person who should EVER be allowed to write DC's Justice League, even though his "take" on the characters is about 90 degrees removed from anyone else's (and TPTB of the DC universe seem to be doing their damnedest to pretend that Giffin's happy-go-lucky, total-loser versions of their iconic heroes never existed).
I'm still sort of "hmm ... need to think some more" on how I feel about next season's prospects for fulfilling my fan quota of squee. I mean, obviously I'm gonna watch it, that's a given. ;) But right now I feel like we've been given our full days' supply of h/c and then some, so I can't quite figure out how much canon has to offer me. Which leads right into your next paragraph... or it WOULD, if LJ's comment character limit didn't have other plans ...
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It's not that I don't acknowledge the *existence* of a certain amount of stupidity in canon, I just don't want to dwell on it. Like glossing over the flaws of a particularly annoying, but endearing, boyfriend. ;)
Yes, that, exactly! I mean, it's still fun to analyze stuff like "what do they mean to each other", and speculate about characters' childhoods and personalities and whatnot, but going into the actual show and its faults is just... You can see why others do it, but it's not for you. Maybe later, when you're not quite so busy loving all of its good parts to bits, and ignoring the bad parts. (Were you ever in "The Sentinel" fandom? Because - wow. Bad show; excellent fandom! I did a lot of analyzing Jim and Blair and the non-existent mythology of the show, but the episodes themselves were left pretty much alone, except for the choice bits of cute interaction, meaningful exchanges and interesting use of Sentinel powers.)
Kripke - I've seen him in interviews! He looked male to me...! But he's a huge, giant fanboy, and the female writers are obviously getting a lot of input. The result makes it seem like he's a 15-year old fangirl, and it's funny.
Mainstream American comics! Now there's something I'm not familiar with at all, but the general idea of having one or two creators, and then a whole bunch of other people coming in to interpret that creation? Very interesting. So you can say that you love this particular series, but only that particular guy's vision of it, while you hate another interpretation of the same basic characters?
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filling in the blanks is what fandom does. And if there are no blanks left, the material can be awesome and amazing and even full of what should send one into paroxysm of fanning, but it'll do - nothing. It might elicit a squee and a feeling of warm fuzzy, but it won't make that kind of wham-impression, where you can feel the characters take up residence in your brain, and you want to read them and write them and analyze them.
SO MUCH YES. I ... have very little to add to this, because it just feels so right. Being the h/c junkie that I am, I feel as if I should be fanning my little heart out to SPN, but I'm not. In fact, I'm almost pulling back a little, like it's a little too much to handle. It fills up those parts of my brain and doesn't leave me anything to reach for. And, weirdly, I kinda feel like the "reaching", the striving to fill in the blanks of imperfect canon, is a really large part of what I want. You'd think that the satisfaction of h/c would be the ultimate goal, but I'm starting to wonder if it's not -- if the "always close, but never close enough" tantalization is actually more fulfilling (in its teasing, frustrating way) than getting it all on a platter.
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Okay - yes. And, again, this is one pretty good explanation why so many people are turning to the Wincest in this fandom. It's all that's left. And even those who might not have been into incest before might find themselves... I don't know, shoved in that direction? By the lack of things to do elsewhere in the fandom. (I'm still not reading any Wincest, because incest is a huge, huge squick for me. But I can see why others would go for it here.)
As for my own h/c junkie self - yeah, Supernatural has my Fandom Immunity card, but it doesn't have my full fanning love. I will occasionally look for fic, but I almost never find anything that sucks me in or breaks my heart or makes me tingle in all the right places. The show already did that, and anything else feels - redundant? Which is obviously not the way most people feel about the show, but it's pretty obvious from this discussion that it has something to do with the h/c, and how the show serves it to us in large helpings almost every week. (The food analogy could go a long way, really, because after a yummy feast it doesn't really matter how delicious a treat you're offered - there comes a point where you just can't eat any more. This shouldn't reflect badly on any of the cooks, not of the original meal, and not of anything served after, but is just a statement of facts. So maybe sometimes you don't want the first feast to be quite so filling, because then you have no room left for those sinfully good dessert courses. They might not always be be that nutritional, but they're still satisfying on a whole different level...)
I wonder if there is an Ultimate Fandom Recipe somewhere out there, with just the right levels of fulfilling that h/c craving, while still leaving enough gaps for it to be interesting to pursue further? The manga "Saiyuki" comes pretty close in my case, but because of the One Creator (oh, adding a paragraph on that theory below!) issue, it doesn't quite do the trick. It would be interesting to at least come up with what the main ingredients are!
Yes, and One Creator - another thing that came up in that big fandom discussion I had with
Which makes me wonder about the Dresden books, because they're all written by Jim Butcher, but... Maybe it's how they're spaced? Yeah, they're a series, but we only meet Harry and friends for a brief while each year, and then months pass where we know very little of what any of them do. Plus, they're written from a first person POV, which means that everything that Harry isn't explicitly aware of is still open for interpretation. Hm. I should really move this up to the Nighlife/Dresden discussion, shouldn't I? I'm pretty sure LJ is going to cut me off soon anyway.
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Hee! Yes, that's SGA. It's my current all-purpose h/c icon.
And even those who might not have been into incest before might find themselves... I don't know, shoved in that direction? By the lack of things to do elsewhere in the fandom.
I think there's that, and also, slash is huge in pretty much *every* fandom, and in this one, there's really nobody to slash EXCEPT the brothers. So it's not surprising that it exists. I just ... can't get over my squick, and I haven't really tried. Even though I'm not a slasher in general, I'll try just about anything, and there are some slash pairings that I like. But that one ... no, I can't even get my brain to go there.
I wonder if there is an Ultimate Fandom Recipe somewhere out there, with just the right levels of fulfilling that h/c craving, while still leaving enough gaps for it to be interesting to pursue further? The manga "Saiyuki" comes pretty close in my case, but because of the One Creator (oh, adding a paragraph on that theory below!) issue, it doesn't quite do the trick. It would be interesting to at least come up with what the main ingredients are!
You know, I've got a Saiyuki h/c story floating around that's about 90% done, but I got sidetracked and now I think I'm getting jossed by canon...
The perfect formula ... I don't know! I think I'm definitely getting closer to being able to define what it is that makes me go fannish for something, but due to that whole "surprise" factor we were talking about elsewhere, it's almost impossible to predict ahead of time -- because if I can spot the key character relationships right off the bat and know where they're going to go, it's almost a guarantee that I *won't* get that fannish about it.
I can tell you what most of my "magic formula" ingredients are, but not everything that has those ingredients will necessarily make me fannish, and not everything that I'm fannish about has those ingredients. Still, here goes. Layla's perfect fannish equation includes:
- An ensemble cast *plus* a single character relationship that specifically interests me. Both of those are important, I think. If the show is only focused on two characters (as Supernatural is), there's only so much territory to mine, either in canon or fic, before there's just about nowhere else to go. It's sustainable for a while, but ultimately less satisfying than if there are a bunch of different relationships to play with. But I also need to home in on one or two specific relationships in the bunch. I think that's why I never got fannish about Firefly -- I loved the cast as a whole, but I wasn't snagged by any one specific relationship or character, and without that ... I don't seem to be able to take the extra jump to fandom. Same thing with One Piece -- I love the group, but there's not one specific character relationship that really does it for me. (Plus there's a full day's helping of h/c in every box, too.)
- Surface tension with underlying love, friendship and respect. The characters are such social misfits or stubborn bastards that they can't recognize, or admit, how much they mean to each other, but that deep love is present -- it's just hidden. Or else it develops through the course of the series, so in the beginning the mutual friendship and respect really isn't there, but it develops over time. Once again, with Firefly, I think it never really had a chance to get to this point -- given two or three seasons, it could have really drawn me in, but with what we got, the cast was just starting to gel in this particular way.
Okay, I'm running out of commentspace already and I have lots more to go! Continued in the next comment....
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- A mix of humor and action, life-threatening moments and quiet behind-the-scenes moments. In varying proportions, I think that canon needs all of these things to keep me engaged. I'm not sure why humor is so integral, but it really is. Maybe it humanizes the characters; maybe it just keeps the canon from being so unrelentingly depressing that I can't really relate to it. On the other hand, if it's all humor all the time, I can't really get emotionally involved with it. There needs to be something at stake.
The action/adventure and sci-fi genres are my drug of choice because they do tend to have the above in about the proportions that I like. There's usually never quite enough of the in-between, day-to-day stuff, but if that's *all* there is, I just can't stay interested. I need my life-threatening explodey stuff, too.
I think I gravitate towards canon that's a little bit cracky, too. Goofy or oddball or just plain *weird* in some way.
- A setting/world that engages my interest and imagination. The characters are primarily what I read or watch for ... but with the canon that really pull me in as a fan -- I think that part of why I seek out fic for them is because I really love the setting or the world-concept and want more of it.
And, you know, I'm pretty sure that one of the essentials to my "perfect fandom formula" is a uniqueness to canon -- its tropes and elements might have been done before, but there's something very *different* about how they're put together in this specific case. Maybe that just follows naturally from the above -- if you've got interesting, unique characters and an interesting, unique world, maybe it just HAS to give the show/book/comic a unique flavor.
And I want to comment on the "one creator" thing too (because I think you're absolutely right, and that in a lot of cases it's a little harder to engage fannishly with a single-creator project for the reasons you outlined above and maybe a couple others) but I need to go walk the dogs and get something to eat. I'll be back.
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But, yes - a list of things that will almost always keep me from fanning definitely involves things such as a show with no humor or no life-threatening moments, and the balance of ensemble/special relationships. I loved watching Firefly, but like you, because I loved all of the characters, and they never got to develop to the point where there was one relationship in particular I could latch on to, it didn't make me fan on it in the sense of "wanting to participate in fandom"-fan.
Battlestar Galactica (the new version) is a good example, to me, of a show that's got a lot of good points, but fails at humor. I watched the first season, and then I was just to bleaked-out. Same with LOST - none of the cast particularly caught my interest, even though the general idea is way cool, and the production values are so high. In the end I just felt the producers were just yanking my chain without knowing where they were going, and I stopped cold.
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TV shows are often better for the filling in of gaps and interpreting, because so many people are involved in the creation of it. You can look at a TC show and see things that the actors put in, the director put in, the writer put in, and then analyze the whole of it from a perspective of knowing that the actors have great chemistry, but seeing how that adds a whole different level of meaning to that particular relationship... With many great manga series, it's the same person writing and drawing - showing us the characters, their thoughts, their relationships, and their world. There things that are there to analyze between the lines were probably put there by the One Creator, who also (hopefully) know how they want the story to progress, and what all of the characters true motivations are. Thus, there is less left for the readers to play with.
I don't have a whole lot to add to this, because I think you're absolutely right. When I first started getting back into Western fandoms a couple of years back, after several years of singlemindedly fanning on anime and manga, I discussed this a little bit with
But I hadn't really taken it a step further and thought about it from a single-creator perspective. Actually, I feel a little weird about writing fic in single-creator fandoms, not so much for Japanese fandoms (for one thing, there's no way they'd ever find out or read it) but for something like the Dresden Files -- I *do* feel almost like I might be stepping on toes a little bit. And, you know, if a creator ever asked me to stop, especially if they did it politely, I'd certainly stop. I know some authors are very open to fic in their worlds -- in fact, I can think of one off the top of my head (actually, it's two authors writing as a unit) who have a fanfic section on their official forum, which is neat. And others, of course, are notoriously anti-fic; luckily, they're also writers who I'm not fannish about, so there's no conflict there! But there is a little bit of an insecure feeling to writing Dresden fic ... kind of a "What if the author saw this and felt like I was trespassing?" sort of feeling.
I don't get that at all with a corporate property, even the ones that are under heavy creator control like SPN. But there's more of a personal touch to books. You get a sense of the actual person behind it, in a much stronger way than for a corporate fandom. There's also, like you touched on, more of a sense of "the one true canon" with a book, as opposed to a TV show where each different writer adds their own little twists to the characters' personalities. Characters in a TV show change just a little bit depending on who's writing the episode, and as fans and fic writers, we can do a bit of cherry-picking when we put together our own personal canon, and everybody's interpretation is going to be somewhat different, but not necessarily incompatible with canon -- at least with certain canon. (Trying to make it ALL make sense with regards to canon, especially for a long-running series, can be very brain-hurty, though! And I *want* canon to make sense, dammit, even though sometimes I have to really stretch to get it to work...)
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Oh, who are these authors with fic sections of the official forums? I like them already!
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It's Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, who wrote "Relic" and a LOT of sequels and related novels. Their books are ... a mixed bag. Some of them are quite good. Others are spectacularly horrible. They have written the second-worst novel I've ever finished (the worst is in a class unto itself) and their main recurring character is a horrible Mary Sue -- or Marty Stu, since he's a guy. Among other things, he has a photographic memory, can speak nearly every language in the world (at least canon would suggest it), studied martial arts at a monastery in Tibet and is now better at it than nearly anyone who's ever lived, has an evil twin brother who is presumed dead after falling into a volcano in Italy, etc. I keep swearing I'll never read another of their books, and then I'll pick up one of the (rare-ish) good ones and get drawn right back in. It's very sad.
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...Only now I gotta figure myself out, since SV fandom isn't really h/c, and breaks a lot of my molds, and yet still is one of my more hardcore fandoms to date. I'm thinking a part of it might be that it's the opposite of one creator. Superman is pretty much one of our greatest modern myths; it's all but public domain. So one's own interpretations...carry more weight, somehow? There's so much canon to draw from, to pick and choose; it's make-your-own-sundae and you can have your choice of any ice cream and topping...
As far as h/c, and having too much of a good thing - because I have those problems with the Nightlife books; they don't engage me because there's not enough left for me to dig into. It's an archeological excavation - but there's no need to get down and dirty when the earth's already cleared away, and where's the fun in that! (I wonder, too, if part of the problem is in that hoary old truth of writing, always show instead of tell - in Nightlife especially the narrator is always explaining to us how much his brother means to him. I'd prefer more action, less confession.)
At any rate - Nightlife reads like fic; it's nothing I haven't read before. What gets me about SPN is that I've almost never seen a show like it, with that much onscreen. Hearing and seeing it, not just reading it - delights me! I wouldn't want every show to become like SPN (or else what would I fic for?) but one such show is terribly fun. (especially when it's written by fangirls - I don't feel like I'm being talked down to; I feel like the creators enjoy it as much as I do. Which is important to me, too, in fanning, though I can't say why, exactly. But I like to know the work I care about is respected by those who made it...)
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(I wonder, too, if part of the problem is in that hoary old truth of writing, always show instead of tell - in Nightlife especially the narrator is always explaining to us how much his brother means to him. I'd prefer more action, less confession.)
I'm actually having a problem with the narrative voice in Nightlife -- Cal just spends a freakin' LOT of time telling us about stuff. I'm finding myself kind of skimming over his monologues and trying to get along to the main plot. I think I might like the books better if they weren't first person ...
Oh, and by the way, the Ukiah Oregon novels I recommended to you a little while back -- the first book is awesome, but the rest of them just completely tank. I'd be inclined to say, read the first one, maybe read the second one (which was decent and had neat supporting characters), but don't bother with them past that. They just go steadily downhill, unfortunately.
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It's kind of funny to have our positions reversed. I was seriously let down by most of the SGA second half of season 3 episodes, but this finale hit a home run for me.
For me, the worst happened, the demonic portents and all the build-up spilled over and I'm pretty sure something seriously bad-ass got free, a demon bigger and badder than the Yellow-eyed guy, because it ripped through the Devil's Trap like butter, something not even the YED could do (and holy water didn't work on *him*).
So whatever got loose is going to be a lot of trouble.
The thing with John, what they did is just about the only thing they could do. His body was salted and burned, there's no way he was going to realistically come back. So they resolved the whole 'dad in hell' thing nicely, and in the process, let Daddy save Dean again. I think having him not say anything at all was even the best choice. Anything he said would've been picked apart by people. Look at what happened in the episode Home, people got angry because Mom didn't seem to do enough for Dean, so there was a nice balance here. And now that he's free of hell, his spirit had to go, because that's what salting and burning does, right? So, even though a part of me wishes the character wasn't gone, I think the resolution was the right one. Now we don't have the pain of him in hell.
I know a few ppl have said the end with the YED was anti-climatic, but I loved it. My only nit is I think they'd have done better if they'd just left it at Dean's "Well, we can check that off the to-do list." The 'this is for our mom' didn't bug me, but it had that little bit of cliche clinging to it.
So far, the only spn episode that just hasn't worked for me was Route 666. That's one out of 44, much better track record than SGA. And I could hug them for not leaving us on a God-awful cliffhanger. I really hate those.
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LOL! Well, different strokes for different folks, you know? There's nothing wrong with that!
So they resolved the whole 'dad in hell' thing nicely, and in the process, let Daddy save Dean again. I think having him not say anything at all was even the best choice.
See, the problem I had with that scene ... like with a lot of the episode, is that I found it unpleasantly heavy-handed. And yeah, I *know* it's individual preference -- I wasn't happy with the way it played out, but that's just because I prefer a lighter, more restrained emotional touch. The scene with their mom was a little shmoopy, too, but, well, she's their *mom*, and they haven't seen her since they were little kids; some schmoop is to be expected. But this ... I dunno, at least he didn't say, "Son, I love you, and I'm so proud of you", at which point I really MIGHT have thrown something at the screen. It's not that I felt he should've come back to life permanently, and it's great that he's not in Hell anymore -- it's just that I think I would have felt a stronger emotional connection with the scene if more had been left to the imagination, y'know? Kind of like the final scene of "Sunday" on SGA -- it stripped out a lot of the emotional resonance for me, by going massively overboard with the schmoop.
And I know there are still a metric ton of demons running around, but the YED was the "Big Bad" of the last two seasons, and the way he finally went .. it just ... didn't feel like the big deal I'd been expecting. None of the "darkside Sam" foreshadowing really came to anything at all; the demonic breeding experiment stuff is basically over and done (unless there's more to it than we've been told) ... it just all didn't really amount to much. IMHO.
I didn't hate the episode, at all. But for me, it missed more notes than it hit. I know I'm kind of the odd person out on this, and I felt like I *should* have liked it more than I did, given my rampant h/c tendencies, but ... it just didn't happen to hit my particular mental kinks, I guess. The final scene with Sam and Dean was one of the few scenes in the episode that really *did* hit it for me, give me that warm glowy feeling. Most of the rest of the episode didn't.
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Oh, and I will certainly say -- I do agree with you, kinda, because not every season has to end in a cliffhanger, f'r cryin' out loud! I actually like the cliffhangers, though by "like" I actually mean "makes me scream for NEXT EPISODE NOW!" But since that's what most shows seem to be doing these days, it's also nice to have a season that *doesn't* end like that.
Still, you can have a punch and exciting episode that DOESN'T end in a cliffhanger ... but I'll shut up now.
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I just watched it today - over with a friend who is a ragging SPN fangirl and she's been flailing at me since Thursday about how awesome the episode was gonna be and...meh.
Like you said, there were good bits. Dean talking to Sam's corpse. Bobby. Ellen. Bobby. More Bobby. The Pentragram in Wyoming. Sam pointing out that maybe he could protect Dean too.
But...as excited as I was to see John, the long staring moment and then going to heaven on a beam of light was just...too much. And the plot was so randomly jammed together (how did those rail road ties get bent? what on earth is going on? what's the demon's plan? why was he dumb enough to get anywhere near the colt? why did he leave the bullet in the colt?) and the almost ant-climatic ending to the YED was just...dull.
I understand why they didn't leave a cliffhanger - just in case they got cancelled. But...c'mon!
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