SPN 2x21

[sholio]

I ... I ... AAAUGH!

Oh, Sam!

Ohhhh, DEAN!

AAAAAAAAAAAAA!

IS IT NEXT WEEK YET???

Oh right... Rational reactions...

They did a really nice job with the Stephen King-esque "kids in a cornfield" plot (I'm a total sucker for those) and with the creepy suspense, and of course the tightening of the emotional screws. There were a few places (well, okay, a LOT of places) where the plot relied a little too heavily on the standard horror/suspense cliches -- i.e. something happens, and you know EXACTLY what's going to happen five minutes later because it ALWAYS happens that way in a show/movie/whatever of this type. I wouldn't even mention it, because I *did* love love love the episode, except that it just happened SO MUCH! Have none of these people ever SEEN a horror movie before, let alone realize that they're living in one? Ash calls Dean, says he knows what's going on but he can't talk on the phone and he'll tell him everything later ... ASH, NO! The girl goes off alone in the woods ... DUH! It's late at night and everybody splits up and leaves the safe place ... GAH! Sam turns his back on his "dead" enemy ... AARGH!

But seriously ... I think it's been observed before that this show is not great literature, it's brain candy, and it's smart and awesome brain candy. And like I said above ... I'm a total sucker for fast-paced horror/suspense of the Stephen King variety. The show had me hooked right in from the moment the radio started to flicker and it didn't let go until that awesome, awful final scene with the hug and Dean starting to cry. NEXT EPISODE NOW PLEASE!

I have some completely unfounded speculation about next week's episode ... I haven't seen a single spoiler and don't have the foggiest clue what's coming, but ... what if the demon's really after Dean, not Sam? Is it possible that Dean is the perfect soldier it's been trying to create, and all the pain and manipulation up to this point has been meant to forge Dean into a weapon and then break him so that he'll respond to its machinations? I doubt if he's got any untapped psionic potential, but the demon's not necessarily after that. It told Sam what it's looking for, someone who's "tough, smart, well-trained". Possibly the seemingly random powers are just an accidental side effect of its selection process, not really a mark of anything specific.

Either that, or Dean just totally LOSING it and leveling the town...

"Darkside Dean" is a rather obvious next step after Sam's death though (or maybe I should put "death" in quote marks, because I don't for a minute believe that he isn't coming back shortly in some fashion -- hello, MAIN CHARACTER), but maybe it's a little TOO obvious to really be where the show is headed at the moment? I love not knowing, though. I've really been sucking at avoiding the spoilers for SGA, and it's fun to be in a fandom where I'm on tenterhooks and really don't have the slightest clue where the next episode's going to go.

Comments

[derry667.livejournal.com]

I have some completely unfounded speculation about next week's episode ... I haven't seen a single spoiler and don't have the foggiest clue what's coming, but ... what if the demon's really after Dean, not Sam? Is it possible that Dean is the perfect soldier it's been trying to create, and all the pain and manipulation up to this point has been meant to forge Dean into a weapon and then break him so that he'll respond to its machinations? I doubt if he's got any untapped psionic potential, but the demon's not necessarily after that. It told Sam what it's looking for, someone who's "tough, smart, well-trained". Possibly the seemingly random powers are just an accidental side effect of its selection process, not really a mark of anything specific.

SNAP! I think we might have started sharing a brain again (which is kinda disappointing in a way because we did used to actually have different opinions on SPN). Because this occurred to me too - the forging of Dean into a weapon this way. It would be an awesome bit of misdirection - but sometimes I wonder if TPTB of SPN would actually think at that level of complexity.

As you say, the show isn't great literature. I predicted just about all the twists in this episode including Ava being the enemy within (in truth, much as I liked her in "Hunted", I half-suspected her to be revealed as a bad guy in that ep). I was very saddened by Andy's demise, but I did kind of expect it (as someone else said to me, he did kind of have "red shirt" printed on his forehead).

But that said, I did love the episode - even if the brothers did hug on screen (you remember my earlier comments). Yeah, this was definitely situation-appropriate manly hugging. I can handle that. ;-P

And Sam? He's just pining for the fjords, I tell ya!

I'm staying pretty spoiler-free, although I do check out the "next week" promo that the CW website puts out. I think that's just equivalent with being a TV viewer in America. Coz they aren't going to spoil the "big reveals", of course. And I really am enjoying watching things as they come along and not anticipating the big events that spoilers predict.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I think we might have started sharing a brain again (which is kinda disappointing in a way because we did used to actually have different opinions on SPN)

LOL! Oh well, really now, how long could THAT last? *g*

I honestly can't figure out if it's an obvious twist or if I'm simply over-thinking this. The SPN plots tend not to go for majorly unexpected twists (this episode providing a lot of cases in point), and they really haven't done anything significant to forshadow a Dean-as-demonfodder plotline. Still, it was the very first thing that leapt into my head at the end of the episode, so it can't be THAT unpredictable.

I broke down and watched the preview on YouTube after I wrote the above -- since I get the episodes from iTunes (no cable), I don't get the previews ... didn't know they had them on the CW website, though! The preview makes it look more like we'll get the Dirty Harry/Bruce Willis edition of Dean -- i.e. cutting a path of vengeful destruction through the demon(s), but not exactly on their side, as such. Still ... the most horrible demonic temptation for Dean that I can think of is the promise that it'll bring back Sam -- even if the demon isn't really after Dean (and I'm not convinced that it isn't), I could DEFINITELY see it offering that (false?) promise.

even if the brothers did hug on screen (you remember my earlier comments). Yeah, this was definitely situation-appropriate manly hugging. I can handle that. ;-P

*snork* Yes, I was thinking of you during that scene, in fact! Well, after getting past the angstiness and the AAUGH! and all. But you know, in all honesty? I'd seen it coming from far enough away that it didn't totally smack me upside the head. And I did flash back to you having mentioned such a thing just a couple of weeks ago.

And yeah ... see, that's the thing about SPN ... I was pretty sure that if/when they ever did do a brother hug, it would be appropriate and not overdone. Like my insistence last summer that SGA's "more character moments!" would be in keeping with the characters' personalities and not overdone. In both cases, I trust the writers to have enough of an understanding of their characters not to send them off on an unscheduled trip to Warm Fuzzy Land. And this ... this was just right, with Dean slowly breaking down and finally oh OWWWWW.

Pining for the fjords indeed! :D That is some serious pining he's doing there. That boy is an ex-Sam at the moment. (And just WHERE exactly did he get stabbed to kill him so quickly?) But, obviously, he's not gonna stay dead. The question is, how the heck is he gonna come back? Claw his way out of hell to rescue Dean? Get resurrected by Darkside Dean somehow? And do we have any hope at all that the situation will actually be resolved next week, or will it just end WORSE?

[derry667.livejournal.com]

The preview makes it look more like we'll get the Dirty Harry/Bruce Willis edition of Dean -- i.e. cutting a path of vengeful destruction through the demon(s), but not exactly on their side, as such. Still ... the most horrible demonic temptation for Dean that I can think of is the promise that it'll bring back Sam -- even if the demon isn't really after Dean (and I'm not convinced that it isn't), I could DEFINITELY see it offering that (false?) promise.

Yeah, it does look like they'll play "grieving Dean goes ballistic" storyline, but it also looked like there will be some face-to-face confrontation between Dean and the Yellow-Eyed Demon which means he could say all sorts of things to mess with Dean's head. And probably the worst thing he could tell Dean would be that they were all killed, not because the Demon had plans for Sammy after all, but because of Dean. That would destroy our Dean boy utterly IMHO.

But you know, in all honesty? I'd seen it coming from far enough away that it didn't totally smack me upside the head. And I did flash back to you having mentioned such a thing just a couple of weeks ago.

LOL! Yeah, me too, actually. My stance has always been that Sam and Dean are quite obviously as devoted to each other as two human beings are capable of being (and I do believe that entirely possible without any sexual element whatsoever - yeah, preaching to the choir, I know). Gratuitous hugging and overt chick-flickiness cheapens that. The bond between them is so powerful because it shines through despite all of their (okay, mainly Dean's) avoidance of directly expressing emotions. The true strength is what they leave unsaid because they don't need to say it.

But that hug was so very in context. The situation was dire and Sam was pretty much out of it. Dean was grasping both literally and figuratively - trying to save the connection, as it were.

(And just WHERE exactly did he get stabbed to kill him so quickly?)

Hmmm... off the top of my head, I'd say a major blood vessel. In that area, renal vein or artery, splenic vein or artery, maybe inferior vena cava if he angled the knife just right. And hey, the guys was some kind of soldier with super powers, right? ;-)

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

My stance has always been that Sam and Dean are quite obviously as devoted to each other as two human beings are capable of being (and I do believe that entirely possible without any sexual element whatsoever - yeah, preaching to the choir, I know). Gratuitous hugging and overt chick-flickiness cheapens that. The bond between them is so powerful because it shines through despite all of their (okay, mainly Dean's) avoidance of directly expressing emotions. The true strength is what they leave unsaid because they don't need to say it.

Heh. Preaching to the choir, indeed!

But I know what you mean. In fact, one of the reasons I was thinking about it during that scene is that ever since you made that comment, I've been contemplating how I'd actually feel about the characters hugging on the show, and had come to the conclusion that it wasn't really something I could see being done in a way that wasn't gratuitous or sappy or just pointless compared to other (more repressed) ways of expressing their emotions. In the beginning I was all about the "Damn it, HUG him already!" but as I've gotten to know the characters better, it's just ... I mean, I think *I'd* be uncomfortable on their behalf if they ever actually hugged each other.

It's not too different from the SGA fangirl issue of McKay calling Sheppard by his first name. After three years of "Colonel", I think it'd be -- too damn weird, no matter what the circumstances. (Besides, under what circumstances could he possibly call him "John" that haven't already come up on the show?) And as you've pointed out in the past (I think it was you), the fanon that using the first name would be indicative of a deeper connection that what they already have -- there isn't any basis for that. On SPN, we've seen in a million ways how much they care about each other; it's not as if the hug is needed to cement something that's already that deep and strong.

Clutching your brother's dying body is a little bit different ... I think you nailed the feeling of that scene, that he was trying to keep the connection (and Sam) from slipping away, and using touch as a way of doing that.

[derry667.livejournal.com]

And do we have any hope at all that the situation will actually be resolved next week, or will it just end WORSE?

Yeah, that's the other thing that occurred to me. That this isn't the end of season cliffhanger! If the penultimate ep of the season ends with Sam's apparent death, what kind of dreadful nail-bitting cliffhanger is next week's episode going to end with?

OH NOES!!!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I know! *bites nails* I'm basically expecting either a gone-to-the-darkside Dean next week (whether drawn in by the demon -- being the chosen one after all, or accepting a demonic bargain to bring back Sam -- or just sort of losing his humanity in a hunt for revenge on the demon), or Sam being resurrected as some sort of destroying angel bent on enforcing the demon's will. Or possibly both. In any case, it CAN'T end well...

And probably the worst thing he could tell Dean would be that they were all killed, not because the Demon had plans for Sammy after all, but because of Dean. That would destroy our Dean boy utterly IMHO.

Oh, you know, that hadn't even occurred to me ... that the demon might actually tell him that, even if it's not true, just to bring him to his knees. And remembering how he responded to finding out that John died to save him -- OH DEAN!

I'm also curious if we might see Daddy Winchester next week. It's possible that the other demon was just messing with Dean when she/it taunted him with John undergoing torture in Hell, but if we do get some, um, high-volume traffic with Hell in the next episode, Dean could well have an opportunity to free him. Or something.

[naye]

Oh! Oh! Oh! Yes! Oh! AAAAAAAAAHHH, Dean! Sammy! Not to mention Andy and Ava and Ash. (Obviously it was not a good episode to be called A-anything!)

I really did love those characters, and for the longest time I've been wanting the Winchesters to get some allies - first season they had people they mentioned, but they ended up dead pretty much as they were introduced to the audience. So I'd harbored a not-so-secret hope that Ava and Andy were going to nab recurring character-spots. So - uh. Oh, shoot. I guess I should have seen this coming - keep forgetting the whole living in a horror movie thing! Guess this reminded me!

Anyway. I was so busy being unhappy at the fate of all the demon-kids and the Roadhouse and such, that Sam getting stabbed just didn't register as much, because he's got Main Character Immunity! Sure, he might be dead now, but he'll get better! The others won't! And the show really lucked out and got awesome actors for both Andy and Ava, and - why couldn't they have been the kind of guests I don't really care either way about?

Of course, that's just my reaction. Then there was Dean's reaction, and I went into some kind of fangirl meltdown. HUG!! Okay, so only one of them was conscious for it, but - HUG!!!!!! ANGST! CRYING! HOLDING, TOUCHING, COMFORT!! Oh, Dean. Oh, Sam. Oh, poor, poor boys...

Your theory! Is awesome, and I hadn't thought about that, but - heeeeey. If it doesn't care about the powers, only wants someone who'd be a good leader for his legions from Hell? Well. That sort of changes things. If Sam was his favourite (not that I'm taking his slimy word for it), Dean is even more of a hunter, has all of his father's skills... Doesn't have demon blood powers, but he doesn't need powers to be oh so dangerous. And Sammy's death would possibly break him enough that he'd do anything - anything to... either get him back, or just deal with his pain. Gonna be very cool to see how this plays out!

One thought: Mary recognized Ol' Yellow Eyes. Recognized. First thought - oh, so the demon is the daddy. A theory that's been around for as long as I can remember. Second thought - oh, is she one of those other generations the demon mentioned? Of course, if she was, she didn't have any powers to use against the demon... But she knew the demon, and that means something. Unless, of course, the demon was doing the demony thing of lying and spreading doubt and despair. Can't really take demon-vision at face value.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

So - uh. Oh, shoot. I guess I should have seen this coming - keep forgetting the whole living in a horror movie thing! Guess this reminded me!

I'm with you on that. I really loved the stable of recurring characters this season, and the Roadhouse in particular; I was just really grabbed by the idea of a whole blue-collar/working-class support network for the Hunters. And I loved that their "computer hacker connection", which is a really standard cop/sci-fi sort of stock character, was this redneck who lived in a BAR. And I liked Ava a lot; in fact, I really enjoy the casting in general on this show. So ... yeah. Bummed. We still have Bobby, though! I'm going to be seriously depressed if Bobby kicks it next episode!

But you know, that's good drama -- because the victims in this episode weren't random "joe nobody" characters; they were people that we'd gotten attached to (and in the case of the Roadhouse, a place) and it HURT to see them die. Heck, no more than we saw of the girl with the killer touch, and even though I pretty much could see her death coming from a mile away, I was even sad when she died! I would've liked to have seen more of her. But that just made the episode better -- we know that they won't kill Sam and Dean (except for, you know, when they do ... but they always get BETTER!) so there's no real "OMG will they die?" suspense when they're sneaking around a haunted house or something, but when it's recurring characters that we've gotten attached to ... you just don't know. I'm chewing my nails (figuratively) over Bobby's fate next episode.

ANGST! CRYING! HOLDING, TOUCHING, COMFORT!! Oh, Dean. Oh, Sam. Oh, poor, poor boys...

Poor poor boys. derry667 made an observation above which seems pretty accurate to me, that Dean's trying to hold onto the connection between them even as Sam slips away -- forcing him to break through the macho-guy personal space barriers that he normally keeps around him. The tears on his face at the end just about undid me. (And is it just me, or does macho Dean do the majority of the crying in this series? Or do I just notice it more with him?)

Okay, I think this is gonna have to go in two comments...

[naye]

Recurring characters is the one thing I've been missing on Supernatural. They're so alone. And while that is effective from a story telling perspective, it's not quite satisfying to me, who wants to see characters in relationships. Which is why I love Ellen and Bobby so much, for stepping up as friends and confidants as much as helpers and parental stand-ins. (Bobby must live! You won't be the only one to be seriously depressed if Bobby buys it in the finale.)

Ava and Andy were more - they were the same age as the brothers, and they also had this experience of having a normal life disrupted by something way out of the ordinary. Not as early or in an as traumatizing way as Sam & Dean, but still. They could relate. With their powers, could have been equal, if they had been given the time and opportunity to develop in that direction. And the show tried to give us a recurring character like that with Jo, but I'm guessing they realized the romantic angle caused such a backlash that they dropped her like a plague-infested possum. (Of course, I'm not spoiled either, so I guess she could be back, but it always seemed to me like maybe she was meant to have a bigger role this season, and the bad reactions to the romance bit made them get rid of her.)

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I want the boys to have a support network. The Hunter community was a good idea, and I like it in theory, but they're not exactly part of it. Maybe they were, back when they were with John, because first season we got several references to Pastor Jim and Caleb, but we all know what happened to those guys. And then John had this talent for alienating people... So now they have about three people they know who will help them, and one is presumed dead, another missing. Ouch.

And while I'm still on that subject: it's been a long-standing dream of mine that we'll see the boys get help from some of the people they have helped. Just - to let them see the result of their work first-hand, how these people (families especially! ♥) who would be dead or in mourning are alive and together, and to let them know how appreciated they are, for all that they always drive off into the sunset dark, rainy night after finishing their work. There are some characters I'd love to see back, too... It's not like the boys don't have enough things they need help with!

But, back to this episode - yes, I liked the other two young people too! I wanted them to live and work together and find some kind of way out. Definitely didn't want them to die, which means the show did a good job with them.

nd is it just me, or does macho Dean do the majority of the crying in this series? Or do I just notice it more with him?

It's not just you. Dean doesn't exactly cry a lot, but when he does, it's - it breaks your heart. And he does it at times when it's him that's breaking, not Sam, or when we don't see Sam at all. I'd have to do a tear-count to be sure, of course, but at least this season we've seen Dean breaking a bit more than we've seen Sam, who's quite possibly just been breaking off-screen. Oh, poor boys. I want to hug them...!

Why, yes, I did screw up the HTML the first time I tried to post this

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Recurring characters is the one thing I've been missing on Supernatural. They're so alone. And while that is effective from a story telling perspective, it's not quite satisfying to me, who wants to see characters in relationships.

Eheheheheheh. You're gonna like Stargate Atlantis. This was actually something that made me drag my feet, at first, about getting into SPN, because I love ensemble groups of characters, and "families of circumstance", and I didn't think I could get that into a show with only two main characters. Of course, I turned out to be quite wrong about this -- but still, I'm with you, I very much want to see the boys develop a support network who don't DIE AT THE DROP OF A HAT!

And while I'm still on that subject: it's been a long-standing dream of mine that we'll see the boys get help from some of the people they have helped.

Oh, that would be seriously awesome. And it's not out of the question; we had that early episode where they got called in by one of their dad's former "clients" to help with the weird plane crashes. I would LOVE to see that! *crosses fingers and hopes*

I'd have to do a tear-count to be sure, of course,

*snerk* and such a burden THAT would be, I'm sure ...! ;)

(reposted because I TOTALLY farked it up the first time... AND THE SECOND TIME DAMMIT! Okay, it's time for bed...)

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Comment part two...

Mary recognized Ol' Yellow Eyes. Recognized. First thought - oh, so the demon is the daddy. A theory that's been around for as long as I can remember. Second thought - oh, is she one of those other generations the demon mentioned?

I know! I was all, "Oh wow, she KNOWS him, that can't be good ..." And when he was forcing her up the wall, she didn't look totally freaked out and screaming -- it wasn't OMG WHAT'S HAPPENING terror; it was the kind of terror you get when you kind of see this coming and know where it's going to go. She's not only had contact with the demon before, but she knows what it is and what it can do.

THE DADDY? You mean, SAM'S daddy? GAK! I hadn't run across that before. Of course, I haven't done a whole lot of online chat about SPN, aside from just talking to friends about it -- so I'm not up on all the fanon and speculation about it. But ... wow. That's a freaky idea. Still, I think this episode does as much to shoot down the theory as to support it, because if the demon was actually Sam's father, then it wouldn't need to do the blood thing, would it? Or do you mean figuratively?

And you know, until you posted this, I hadn't thought about the demon's "generations" comment referring specifically to generations of altered children. I mean, I probably should have, but I thought it just meant "generations" in the conventional meaning. But, thinking about it from that angle, it makes a LOT of sense that Mary might herself have been part of an earlier breeding experiment ...

I'm not quite sure how to feel about that if it's true, because one of the things that was kind of neat about the show was the implication that they were a perfectly normal familiy up until this catastrophe happened to them. On the other hand, if there WAS something different about them (and especially Mary) from the beginning, that might explain how John got hooked up so quickly with the Hunter network, and why he got good at it as fast as he did -- it was something he might have already known something about, and been preparing for.

A question I've had ever since watching the premiere, which has never really been answered or even touched upon, is where was John and what was he doing while Dean carried Sam out of the house? I've only seen the premiere the one time, but even though I didn't really know the characters at that point, I remember thinking how weird it was that John just came out of nowhere when he grabbed Dean on the lawn. Now the writers might not have meant anything by it -- Dean's scared and confused and disoriented, and he's not paying much attention to what's around him, so his dad *does* seem to come out of nowhere. But at the time, my first thought was that there was something supernatural about John. This doesn't seem to be the case, but ... where WAS he during those missing minutes?

[derry667.livejournal.com]

And you know, until you posted this, I hadn't thought about the demon's "generations" comment referring specifically to generations of altered children. I mean, I probably should have, but I thought it just meant "generations" in the conventional meaning. But, thinking about it from that angle, it makes a LOT of sense that Mary might herself have been part of an earlier breeding experiment ...

(Butting in. Sorry.)

When the demon mentioned "generations", I just thought of the baby girl and her family that Sam and Dean saved at the end of last season (while John was confronting and getting captured by Meg and her bro).

But yeah, what if Mary herself was a part of a "chosen generation"? What if she had been forced to confront some "dark destiny" like Sam? And what if she (again like Sam) had tried to escape it by trying to have a normal life - and unintentionally brought the consequences down on John and her children?

And whether John had any idea of this or not? Hmmm... the journal entry "I went to Missouri and learned the truth" is now ringing in my mind. Maybe Missouri told him a lot more than just what was out there in the dark.

[naye]

I was really surprised at how the nursery scene played out, lemme tell you!

That the demon would've fathered Sam - I know I saw it around when I was still on SPN lists on LJ and read theories that were around, and I definitely discussed the possibility with xparrot, because she got me into it, and we watched a lot of it together. Don't know if it's a major fandom speculation or just something I've come across by accident, but. Yes. That Yellow-Eyes was doing the cuckoo thing in some way - a changeling baby seems a bit far out, but if he'd gotten to Mary in some way (even if the demon couldn't shape-shift, there's always posession)...? Also that John knew about this, and I had long discussions that I don't remember much of now about how that could have affected his relationship with his sons. But now there's the blood thing! Which could mean one of two things - the blood was the demon's first contact with Sam, and how he got his powers, or, it was just... dropping in with a bottle of prime milk for the baby. Um. Ew. (I'm so close to starting on how some cultures handle males "feeding" children in the womb, or at initiation rites, but I'll refrain from involving my anthropology geekery in the fanbabble!)

About the generations, I read derry667's comment below, and - oooh, that's right! I'd forgotten about the baby girl! With parents about Sam's age, just like his mother would have been when he was born! How interesting. Especially if it was Mary's secret, and John didn't know! Now that's a pretty cool twist.

where was John and what was he doing while Dean carried Sam out of the house

Having watched the premier numerous times, although it was a while ago - John was trying to get to Mary. I think it's just that the cutting is weird right there. I didn't get the impression that a lot of time was supposed to have passed. Tiny Dean couldn't have run that quickly carrying baby Sammy, and the time it took him to get down the stairs and into the lawn, John was trying to fight his way into the burning nursery. Then the fire roared at him, flinging him backwards (Mary protecting or the demon attacking or both?), and I guess he picked himself back up and hurried out after his children, running quite a bit faster than Dean did. So there's not really any time unaccounted for - I think they just wanted the audience to jump at the sudden figure coming out of nowhere to grab Dean, before they revealed that it was John. Wouldn't have been as effective if we'd seen him approach in frame.

[kodiak-bear.livejournal.com]

s it possible that Dean is the perfect soldier it's been trying to create, and all the pain and manipulation up to this point has been meant to forge Dean into a weapon and then break him so that he'll respond to its machinations? I doubt if he's got any untapped psionic potential, but the demon's not necessarily after that. It told Sam what it's looking for, someone who's "tough, smart, well-trained".

This is something I've been thinking about. The only thing that makes me a little iffy on it is that Sam did get the demon's blood as a baby, and the demon created all those special kids with powers to find a leader for his army. So I don't think he set out to want Dean but I do wonder if he's more interested in Dean than he's let on and with Sammy dead, Dean will do anything to get him back. I've heard an unconfirmed spoiler and I found a credit for a cast member for AHBL part 2 on IMDB that seems to verify it, but I'm not sure the specifics of it will play out because there was some conflicting points mentioned about the spoiler.

This show is definitely brain candy, and heart and eye candy, too! I can't believe how much I like so many of their guest stars and Andy was so freaking loveable that his death was just *ouch*! Ava, I figured something was up there. She was gone for five months and obviously someone fed and watered her, she didn't spend the entire five months in that room locked up in a coma. But I did like her so it was a little shocking to see her go darkside like that, but it was very dramatic having her kill Andy and then have her killed in turn.

Despite the one little spoiler I was cued in on somewhere, have no idea where it was now, I'm pretty ignorant of what's going to happen in the next part and omg, is it Thursday yet???

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Ava, I figured something was up there. She was gone for five months and obviously someone fed and watered her, she didn't spend the entire five months in that room locked up in a coma.

See, I never clued in to that, because I just assumed that time was running strangely for them. My very first idea when Sam started looking around was that they weren't in the real world at all -- that the creepy town was Hell, or some kind of dream landscape. So it didn't seem at all odd to me that Ava appeared to have just stepped out of the real world, and in fact I was a little surprised that the thought didn't seem to occur to Sam that if she'd had such an experience (or so she claimed) it might have been months or years since he'd last seen Dean. On the other hand, maybe he did think of it and it was all part of his "I don't know if my brother's even alive" worry.

*covers ears* No spoilers! lalalalalalala....

However, I had expected something really catastrophic to happen to Sam, because I don't see the episodes until a day or so after the rest of the world (not having cable or much regular TV reception, I get them off iTunes) so I'd seen my friend list explode in a frenzy of "OMG SAAAAAAAM!" reactions. I'd kinda thought he was going to go darkside, though -- given all the foreshadowing, I totally wasn't expecting him to get done in by someone else without ever using his powers. On the other hand, I realize that the finale itself still has to happen, and I expect this will play into it...

[parisindy.livejournal.com]

OMG i would kill to see serious out and out nutso Dean!
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
I may implode before next week! *dies*

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

*implodes with you*

It's going to be a LOOOONG week. But it'll be a much, much longer summer...

[nonniemous.livejournal.com]

I like your theory about Dean. I've always wondered why, while Sam is the obvious reason, they've put so much emphasis on Dean's story, too, and on his fractures, especially this season. I've kind of mainlined the episodes in the last week, so I know I've missed stuff, but there seems to have always been a lot more emphasis on Dean's backstory and why he's the way he is than there has been on "normal" Sam. And the focus this season on just how broken Dean is by John's sacrifice, and how much further he keeps pushing the "things I'm willing to do/kill for Sam and Dad" scale? The "what's dead should stay dead" thing? Guh. There's one scene in the preview for next week that makes me think there's gonna be some kind of deal going down on Dean's part. We know he's thought about it, at least since "Crossroad Blues." It's possible, too, that MainCharacterImmunity!Sam goes darkside to save Dean from making that kind of sacrifice in the end.

/blather]

I tend to disagree with the earlier poster about Dean's armor being strongest where his worth is concerned. I think those are his vulnerable spots; he's just used to being hit there so he knows how to cover it. But every single time the demons go for him and start throwing that in his face, I can see that many more cracks in his soul. He's always been expendable in his own eyes--and yeah, okay, Sam found him a faith healer and John traded his soul to save Dean's life. But the hole in Dean's heart is too big for him to believe that they did it for the same reasons he'd make that kind of trade. Sam saved him because he needed Dean to help him find their dad at that point, and his dad saved him because Dean needs to be there for Sammy and in Dean's mind, John would have known that without Dean, he and Sammy would never have stayed together. So everyone saves Dean because he's useful, not because he matters in and of himself.

[derry667.livejournal.com]

I take it that I'm "the earlier poster" (and because you don't know me and it might not be clear from what I say sometimes, please know that I'm neither offended nor trying to be offensive - I just like arguing).

While in no way a Nietzche fundamentalist, I really do think that what doesn't destroy you tends to make you stronger. Dean "covers" a lot, yes, but being hit in a certain area a lot, a person either caves or they construct defences. Dean hasn't caved (despite what a lot of the fandom seems to think he isn't broken, he's still remarkably functional). So I'm very convinced that he's built some very hardy defences.

It seems to me that Dean, from a very early age (at least since the Striga incident), has developed the defence mechanism of projecting his sense of self-worth outward. Firstly, towards protecting and looking after his family (of whom Sam is the only part he has left) and, secondly, towards "saving innocent lives" through hunting. Dean Winchester puts himself as last priority in the grand scheme of things - and it is a defence mechanism because if you expect nothing, then you cannot be disappointed.

Dean protects himself by constantly reminding himself not to get his hopes up. At least, in his conscious mind. His subconscious possibly still clings because, despite the fact that Dean constantly disparages a "normal life" and says he'd rather kill himself, when the Djinn "gave" him a normal life in the last episode, he actually embraced it fervently.

I don't think that Dean thinks himself as "worthless", what I think is that he's decided that his worth is not an issue to be considered. Dwelling on that stuff is pointless emo crap as far as his concerned and he's got a job to do. At least, that's what he tells himself.

And I don't think that Dean for one moment thinks their father gave his life for Dean's just because Dean is useful. Dean wouldn't think that because Dean is not that blind to his father's love. Actually, Dean always saw his father's love for his children more clearly than Sam. Dean isn't a loyal soldier because he's some kind of blind automaton. His loyalty, love and respect for his father stem from knowing how much he was loved by his father in the first place. And when Dean broke down and talked about his father's sacrifice (sitting on the front of the car at the end of the zombie episode) one of the first things he said to Sam was to apologise to Sam "For Dad. Because he was your dad too." In other words, Dean felt selfish that John's sacrifice had been mainly for him rather than Sam. Guilt because he mattered too much, not disappointment that he didn't matter enough. Seriously.

[nonniemous.livejournal.com]

No worries; discussion is a good thing--though fair warning: the raccoon brain tends to get distracted in the middle of them and wander off to the next shiny subject or three. ;-)

I didn't say Dean thought he was worthless; I said he believes he's expendable. One doesn't necessarily follow the other--but believing that he's expendable affects his actions and his perceptions, and makes it difficult and possibly impossible for him to see that for Sam and his Dad, he is NOT expendable. It just won't make sense to him that they wouldn't see the same truths that he does--because like you said, his worth isn't the question at hand.

But, no matter how good Dean's defenses are, that's not the same as being healthy and whole in an area, and the mere fact you have to have defenses means that you are vulnerable in that particular area. He's amazingly functional, but that doesn't preclude the damage. It just means that he's an incredibly strong person who's managed to survive and even thrive in circumstances that would have destroyed most other people. And yes, he's got some grasp of John's love for him, and Sam's. But again, it's all going to be colored by that perception that he's always been the expendable son.

On one level he understands that his father loves him with the unconditional love that a father has for a son. But on a whole 'nother level, Dean is the "good son," and a great deal of his relationship with John is predicated on that very conditional aspect of things. The way John reacted to Dean the few times he did question him, and the look on Dean's face each time? And the look on young Dean's face after the Shtriga incident? In his mind, Dean is risking a whole lot by even those small challenges, and that's not the reaction of someone who is unshakably secure.

I do agree that he protects himself by not getting his hopes up. It is his defense mechanism, and yes, he is loyal to his dad for good reasons. But deep down, he is incredibly vulnerable on the whole being expendable front; it just takes a lot of digging to get down to where he's buried everything that can break him. He is strong and not in the same obvious danger as Sam, and he doesn't often need "protection" or "saving"--and so people don't expect him to need it AT all. Dean does his best to live up to that, and most of the time he can and does and it's not a problem for him. And I'd say that's what you're seeing--but that's also why the demons keep hitting him there. John's weaknesses were obvious, Dean and Sam. Sam's are too, his fear about being a freak and going darkside. But underlying all Dean's obvious fears about not being able to protect Sam and do the things his Dad asks him to do? That whole thing about being the expendable son, the one who needs more than he should, and who needs more than he is needed.

[nonniemous.livejournal.com]

And my apologies for rambling and being repetitive in that reply and for going on some more in this one; one too many Coronas tonight, I think. (whicn is actually one, becuase I so rarely drink these days! ;-)

One more thing, rereading your comment and being brand spanking new to the fandom, I'm guessing that the fandom sees him as poor woobie Broken!Dean? What people fail to realize is that it takes a great deal of inner strength to survive the types of things Dean's lived through in all his life. If he wasn't strong, he'd have been destroyed by his mother's death to begin with, let alone the life John's dragged him through since then.

So it's going to take a lot to break Dean, but he's still breakable and vulnerable. I think the YED was pulling from John's own perceptions of Dean's vulnerabilities in "The Devil's Trap," and the same for Meg pulling them from Sam in "Born Under a Bad Sign." But that doesn't equate to broken, woobie! Dean. When he breaks, it's not going to be pretty and fluffy and chick-flick-moments fixable. TPTB seem to have laid a lot of groundwork on that front during the whole season.

(Honestly? I don't think Sam has the same inner strength as Dean, and that's part of why Dean's always been so protective of Sam.)

One last thing, I don't agree wiht the term "selfish" about hwo Dean feels, but I will agree that he feels guilty--except that it's because his father thought he mattered that much, when Dean sees it exactly the opposite: his father was the one who mattered more and should have stayed.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Got a migraine impeding rational thought so this will be short, just wanted to say AHHHHHHH again. And also, regarding the horror movie cliches, I did crack up at the beginning, because isn't it a cliche that the black guy always dies first? And then he goes off alone...and gets rescued, and is actually the last to go. Heh.

(also, I love the show for having the lesbian girl there without comment...I've been watching too much TV that dances around or just ignores any possibility of alternative sexuality, and SPN acknowledges it so straightforwardly, even if they do crack an undue amount of Wincest jokes...)

I totally didn't think of Dean being the demon's real target! Sort of doubt it, because of how focused Ol' Yellow-Eyes always is on Sam (end of last season, when he's torturing Dean to get to Sam rather than vice versa) and the show isn't that complicated, really...but it is a cool idea!

And oh! the final scene. Which we have now watched, umm, too many times. But the way Dean is holding him and doesn't know where to put his hands, is grabbing on like he's trying to physically hold Sam in the realm of the living, and then the music stop and there's only the thunder of the coming storm - eeeeee!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Migraine! Owwww ...

I did crack up at the beginning, because isn't it a cliche that the black guy always dies first? And then he goes off alone...and gets rescued, and is actually the last to go. Heh.

Ha! I did notice that, actually. Assuming it was on purpose, it was a nice way to play with audience speculation! (Although I also had certain issues with how the powers broke down along racial and gender lines -- but I really do try not to think about that stuff in sci-fi, because honestly, if you're looking for problems of that sort you can nearly always find them, and I'd rather just enjoy it without looking for it ... but I did think about it.)

(also, I love the show for having the lesbian girl there without comment...I've been watching too much TV that dances around or just ignores any possibility of alternative sexuality, and SPN acknowledges it so straightforwardly, even if they do crack an undue amount of Wincest jokes...)

Ahh yes, I LOVED that -- the casual reference to her girlfriend! No big deal, and no big deal to Sam either. Very cool!

It's really nice to see TV getting more relaxed about stuff like that. While I think the Stargates are still a ways from having an obviously gay character, they do have recurring slash in-jokes (the same way SPN does with the Wincest ones) -- sort of a nod to the slash fans. (Cool to see, even if it IS slightly creepy that TPTB of both the Stargates and SPN obviously know about slash...)

You've got a point, though, about the demon being focused on Sam rather than Dean. If the show was going for misdirection, it's certainly a world-class case of it, but like you and Derry both pointed out, they just don't generally do that kind of subtlety and/or audience mindfuckery. (We leave that to Lost ... which, by the way, I have definitely and for certain stopped watching after getting the Cliff Notes of last week's -- it sounds like I picked a great time to leave!)

Nice to know I'm not the only one who can't stop watching that final scene ... although it's making me so sad on Dean's behalf that I think I'm gonna HAVE to shelve it until next week ...

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

friendshipper, if you are interested, one of the moderators on GW posted a SPN con report. Here's the links. I don't know if she has a livejournal - for all I know, you might already know about this! :) But if not, here's the posts.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=6667583&postcount=1469
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=6667631&postcount=1470

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'll go take a look!