sholio | 3x12: Echoes

Entry tags:

episode reactions:sga

3x12: Echoes

*much incoherent squee-ing ensues*

I knew nothing about it going in, and I'm SO glad (and now even more determined to avoid spoilers for the rest of the season -- at least for the episodes I don't already know something about). I just don't really know where to begin with this one... It's just like one long litany of things to squee about.

A whole episode of almost nothing but character interaction!

"Grace Under Pressure" follow-up!

Zelenka and Ronon CAMPING!

Teyla's sense of humor! And BIG STICKS!

Ronon is so cute when he's worried!

We actually found out something about Atlantean wildlife ... and saw the Ancient database used for more than just locations of Stargates!

And of course, Sheppard and McKay ... hurt in an underwater puddlejumper ... deaf and still snarking ("Zelenka's smarter than you ... Meredith!" *dies*) ... saving the day ... and JOHN coming up with the cool day-saving plan (just like he did in "Grace Under Pressure"). The implicit trust between them in this episode is just gorgeous -- John wanting to help with Rodney's whale projects (probably mostly as an excuse to fly underwater again), Rodney actually following John underwater (what do you want to bet he wouldn't have trusted anyone else like that?), John running off from the infirmary in pursuit of Rodney's mysterious lab, Rodney running off to the Daedalus to help John with his plan despite thinking that it was going to kill them all.

I LOVE MY SHOW.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

WASN'T IT THE MOST AWESOME THING EVER???????? (yes I just saw it too!) Second only to "McKay and Mrs. Miller" in awesomeness!

Zelenka and Ronon CAMPING!

AH! So THAT's What they were doing. The sound quality in the dl I got wasn't all that good so I was missing a bunch of the diologue and turning up the volume only made it more muffled.

Yeah, the sound quality was terrible, and I had trouble catching enough to get the exact details -- I'll be watching the better quality episode tonight with my hubby, so I guess I'll know more then. But basically, Zelenka was on the mainland doing some sort of experiment, and Ronon was along (overnight) to keep an eye on him. And was bored out of his mind. That's why Teyla started trying to teach him to meditate, to give him something to do in those situations.

AH! Thank you!

Heh, I just replied to your episode commentary, too.

This episode was truly a Sheppard-and-McKay fan's dream come true.

and Ronon - Teyla, and Ronon-Redek, and Rodney-Radek and pretty much any friendship (or slash or het) pairing you want!!!

I think this is the first time we've EVER had Ronon-Zelenka interaction in the whole history of the show. It was a delight.

In general, the character matchups in this episode were back to being similar to the Season 2 ones -- Rodney/John, Teyla/Ronon, Rodney/Zelenka. That was nice to have again. Don't get me wrong, I adore the way that they've been shuffling them up in this season, but I hadn't realized that I'd missed seeing Ronon and Teyla have one-on-one time until we got it again.

Also, I'm not a slasher (at all), but I couldn't help laughing at that final balcony scene, where you can hear John pat Rodney on the ... somewhere ... as he leaves, but can't see where his hand is. Talk about giving them ammo ...

Also, I'm not a slasher (at all), but I couldn't help laughing at that final balcony scene, where you can hear John pat Rodney on the ... somewhere ... as he leaves, but can't see where his hand is. Talk about giving them ammo ...

HE DID!?!?!?! LOL! :O)

I actually prefer gen but unfortunatly I've found that a fair amount of the gen Atlantis fic I've tried to read just doesn't hold my attention. I haven't figured out why yet because there's nothing really wrong with the stories... they just don't... I don't know how to explain it really... There ARE some awesome gen stories that I have read - like yours and a few others but I've found that I do end up prefering some slash pairings for whatever reason and I still skip over the sex parts so that has nothing to do with it...

I don't mind slash, it's just not usually my cup of tea -- not that I can't enjoy a well-written one, and there have been some that I really liked. (Have you read

beadtific's "Slow Braille of Touch"? I absolutely cannot recommend that one highly enough.)

I've had this conversation with friends of mine who read both gen and slash, and basically, it seems like the slash fandom has -- not a better caliber of writers, but a different *style* of writing. Good slash is very lush and sensual, not necessarily THAT kind of sensual, but just very rich with details and very experimental with POV and language. Gen tends to be more stripped-down and focused on external events and action/adventure type plots, whereas slash is often more focused on character interaction or on the little details of an alien planet or culture. I can often tell when I'm reading a gen story that the writer also writes slash, because there's just a certain ... indefinable quality to the language that has nothing to do with the character pairings.

I guess that I've tried, with my gen, to bring a sort of slash sensibility to it -- to appropriate the linguistic elements that I enjoy in slash stories, while keeping the gen-type interactions that I prefer.

You just explained it perfectly!! That's exactly it!!! :O)

I don't mind slash, it's just not usually my cup of tea

I used to only read gen but I slowly ended up prefering the slash... For the show itself I'm still totally a genner at heart so I don't pay attention to what pairings there are - it's all friendship to me.

(Have you read beadtific's "Slow Braille of Touch"? I absolutely cannot recommend that one highly enough.)

Yep! Repeatedly.

I guess that I've tried, with my gen, to bring a sort of slash sensibility to it -- to appropriate the linguistic elements that I enjoy in slash stories, while keeping the gen-type interactions that I prefer.,

*nods* more character interaction too. I sometimes get the feeling that some gen writers feel that teh characters have to be distent with each other in order for them to keep the story gen - like if the characters care too much than the story becomes slash or something...

Lately I've been trying to get back into reading some of the gen fic just to give it a better chance. Part of why I put my stories on the Jumper Bay archive.

Interesting discussion with the whole gen vs slash thing. Do me a favor, huh? When you have a chance, go over this fic

http://www.wraithbait.com/viewstory.php?sid=9827 "Contrasts"

or this one

http://www.wraithbait.com/viewstory.php?sid=5170 "Seascape"

and see where it falls as far as description, character development, ect as compared to what you look for in slash fiction. I don't mean you have to read it word for word and give me a detailed report (lol) just get the feel of it. One thing I try to do is make good character relations in my fics without going overboard. Much appreciated. I think you've got my email. * I think!*

Are you talking to me or

friendshipper because *I* don't have you're email :O) but I'll check out the fics anyway.

Either or, since you seem to share the same view.

kamelionwriter at yahoo dot com

Actually I owe you a review on "Contrasts" anyway. I read it this weekend -- didn't plan on finishing that night, but then couldn't stop -- and I felt like I owed you more than just "Liked the story, gotta sleep", so I was going to write a review the next day. Which I haven't done yet, feh. But when I do, would you like more of a "book review" type of review as opposed to the glowy sorts of reviews that I usually leave for stories I liked? Which is to say, pointing out areas of both weakness and strength, as opposed to just saying what I liked about it. This is not to say that I think the story was weak, just that any long story usually has areas that can be nitpicked and improved (including mine). So, do you want that?

A book-type review would be awesome, I like knowing what worked and what didn't, very helpful. But you do what you have time for. Appreciate it!

Kam :)

All righty! I'll see if I can get something written tonight.

Yeah, they really do. This is why I had to ask you for gen recs, because I'm just so drawn to the character interaction in slash, even if I don't subscribe to the belief. I wish I could tear myself away from comedic writing enough to do a meaty character-driven gen story as yours are, but the muse won't allow.

Still, after seeing more of Teyla and Ronon (at last!) in this ep, maybe the muse will oblige....

That's right, didn't I promise to come up with some more for you, and then I never have?

I would love it if you wrote something with Teyla and Ronon. I think they're second only to Sheppard and McKay as far as character relationships that I like reading about ... as gen, that is. Although honestly, they're also one of the few pairings on the show that genuinely doesn't squick me, though I still prefer them as friends.

Oh that wasn't a hint - because I've been bad and haven't read the first lot you recced yet! Plus I'm reading your stuff - and have only just realised that it was you who wrote the fic when Rodney's in the nursing home... (I don't remember titles) I love that fic.

You know what - I've seen two other reviews for this ep, and both have had similar opinions concerning Teyla and Ronon. We love them as friends, but wouldn't mind too much if they became more.

I think that "wouldn't mind too much" about sums it up for me. I'm really not shippy about any of the characters on the show -- I really *like* the friend dynamic and wouldn't necessarily want it to change. But there are quite a lot of pairings on this particular show (both het and slash) that actively squick me. Teyla/Ronon is one of the few that doesn't.

About the recs ... heh ... don't worry about it; I have tons of stories on my "really do mean to read this someday" list. So much fic, so little time. And then there's actively *writing* the stories too ...

I'm glad you like that story! It's really gotten a wonderful response, which is funny in a way, because I wrote it for someone and ended up writing something that wasn't at all what she'd asked for. And I was all apologetic and woeful about it; and then not only did she like it, but it has turned out to be one of my most popular stories. Just goes to show, I guess...

Great episode! Peril of all sorts. Running into the sun. Massive SFX.

Favorite parts: The scenes with Teyla and Ronon, who seem to have actual conversations and everything.

Have I mentioned my love for the Tubes of the Internets today? Because, seriously? I'm going to take my laptop out to dinner and buy it flowers.

OH, Carson! How will I live without you?

PS: Why isn't SG-1 playing somewhere, as well?

Favorite parts: The scenes with Teyla and Ronon, who seem to have actual conversations and everything

Yes! I just loved the suggestions in this episode that the characters have actual ... personal lives. Free time. Hobbies. Casual clothes. Conversations that have nothing to do with OMG SOMETHING'S ABOUT TO KILL US.

I was kind of wondering that about SG-1, myself.

A bit like watching a high quality fan-fic huh? I'm so glad that this season they've decided to give us these moments - that they finally understand that we watch not only for the exciting adventures, and special effects, but for the moments, the wonderful moments that don't necessarily have to drive anything onwards, but are about people connecting.

*Plays quick round of icon 'Snap'*

THERE IS NOTHING I DO NOT LOVE ABOUT THIS EPISODE OH MY GOD.

I KNOW! I'm just a giant squee-puddle now. I happen to be off work today, which is sort of unfortunate because I had all this stuff I was GOING to get done and now all I can do is re-watch bits of the episode compulsively. At least if I was at work, I'd be *useful*.

Oh WOW! I LOVE THIS, LOVE IT, LOVE IT, LOVE IT!

I was laughing from the get-go! Petulant teenager Ronon was hilarious (and so cool, coz I once requested a gen Zelenka/Ronon fic.) Teyla was cool, and funny - and she really whacked him (and boy do those two look GOOD fighting each other). And...and... there are not enough words to describe my love for this. Rodney's enthusiasm about the whale (supports 'Rodney loves animals' ficcers, and destroys 'Rodney hates any science that isn't related to physics' ficcers) - and John laughing at him. Love it!

What I really thought was special, was that all six main characters had decent screen time, and we had Zelenka too! I felt sorry for Carson/Paul however, because he was the only one who didn't get to be funny - everyone else did. How often does that happen? Very special!

I was nearly dying in the Rodney/John infirmary scene...
"Canadian football sucks" "Celine Dion is over-rated" (how many million fan-fics mention Celine? So cool!)

I loved the Ronon/Teyla stuff. The banter - it was like watching siblings, and with Ronon falling asleep during meditation (hmmm, where have we seen that before?)

So funny having them all shouting at each other.

OK, I'm so incapable of being coherrent right now. There;s just so much to rave on about! Man, that is what a goos TV show is about!

And yeah - what the heck has happened to SG-1? Not that I'm all that bothered. If SGA keep on producing episodes like that, then there'll be no doubt in my mind that it's better than SG-1, even when it was at its prime (ie. pre-Orii)

These great team episodes are SO going to spoil us, because now we know they can do great John-Rodney without giving the short end of the (fighting?) stick to the rest of the team. THE SECRET'S OUT, GUYS! We know you can do great team episodes where everybody gets to shine, so ... why not do it more often?

I shouldn't be picking nits, though. This season has been fantastic and this episode just left me practically incoherent with delight (as you can probably tell from my "review", above).

I was nearly dying in the Rodney/John infirmary scene...

Oh yes, me too. And John brought up the Meredith thing again! I was so hoping the writers wouldn't forget about it, because it really seemed the sort of thing he'd keep pulling out to torment Rodney with.

The banter - it was like watching siblings, and with Ronon falling asleep during meditation (hmmm, where have we seen that before?)

I loved the sibling vibe in this! Both with the Teyla/Ronon and the John/Rodney -- with each of them, we got the whole spectrum from annoyance to concern. *hee* John and Ronon should get together and commiserate about their meditation follies. (Although come to think of it, John was actually the one who suggested it ... so maybe no sympathy there.)

As much as I adore the John/Rodney interaction, and honestly wouldn't mind the show being about only them, I can't forget that there are other characters who have been getting short shrift. I mean how much have we seen previously of relaxed, smiling, carefree Teyla? But now that we've seen it, we want more! It was great that it was Teyla who saw the whale projections first, not because she meditates, not because she's got Wraith DNA, not because she' the leader of the Athosians, but just because it was her. Teyla as normal person (who can kick Ronon's butt) - wonderful.

Teyla has been so much more relaxed this season. I love it! In the first season, it seemed that she was still fairly uncomfortable around the Atlanteans, and in the second, we hardly ever saw her off duty. But we're finally getting to see her actually relaxing and joking around with the guys. It's awesome!

Rodney's enthusiasm about the whale (supports 'Rodney loves animals' ficcers, and destroys 'Rodney hates any science that isn't related to physics' ficcers) - and John laughing at him.

Oh yeah ... I just realized that I meant to respond to this part, and didn't!

Rodney really *is* a giant softie for animals, isn't he? It's like all the way back in Hide & Seek, when he was talking to Carson's mice. And I liked how, at the end, John didn't tease him for it; he was just sort of quietly supportive.

I strongly suspect that most of Rodney's mocking of medical science in the show is just to annoy Carson. The fans seem to have jumped on this as "Rodney thinks anything but physics isn't real science", but it seems like new knowledge and exploration in general excites him, not just relating to physics.

I guess that was the long way of saying "I agree!" :)

Oh yeah, the mice, his lost dog, his cat, the whale (baby whale) ... he's a big softie. I think John didn't tease him at the end because he appreciated the whales too - despite his nose being put out of joint when Rodney gave 'Sam' the credit for his rescue in GUP.

Yes, Rodney loves discovery. He's excited to have found out the name of a ship or a genus (even if they turn out to be clunky Ancient names) - an excitement that you wouldn't get from someone who just goes for physics. I also think he might consider medicine voodoo because of his hypochondrical health concerns.

That was a very long way of clapping you on the back, and then adding that people do the same with John. Season one still has certain fans convinced that John is a genius in maths. Only in maths - which is ludicrous - especially when we see episodes like Grace Under Pressure when he's doing/directing practical engineering stuff. Plus in 'The Tower' *shudders that she is citing the episode that the writers scraped off of their shoe soles* he refers to feudal society like he knows what he's talking about (which is totally hot BTW, and more than I can say for the costume design...) which isn't an easy subject (believe me, I know) - thereby proving my theory of wishing-thinking that John is more than a maths genius!

You still awake there?

Smart!John is incredibly hot to me. And I think the show has shown time and again that he really is WELL above average in both intelligence and breadth of knowledge. I don't get the idea that it's something he hides, or is embarrassed about, as it's sometimes portrayed in fanfics -- he's just a smart guy who doesn't use intelligence to define himself (in a geek kind of way, I mean). We know that he reads for fun -- not just War & Peace, either; there have been various times that we've seen him in his quarters reading, and there were also those Sudoku books in "Return", so he likes to play with numbers as well.

I really don't think he's a math *genius* in canon (though I don't mind him being portrayed that way in fic). He's just an all-around smart guy, and the ability to work with numbers is a part of that. I mean, in "Brotherhood", he mainly figured out the puzzle from remembering a time that he'd seen something similar on a test he probably took 20 years ago. That's actually a whole different kind of intelligence from math smarts, more of an all-around ability to retain information and make connections in different kinds of situations.

Oh, and I absolutely LOVED that it was John taking out the ZPM in "Echoes". Another example of his all-around smarts, because he's obviously watched Rodney do it enough times that he remembers how and is confident of his ability to do it.

While I get a kick out of Jack O'Neill's complete inability to understand or relate to advanced technology, I'm really glad that they didn't go the same way with John. For one thing, it helps distinguish the two characters, considering that they play such different roles in the two shows. More subjectively, though, I just have this giant *thing* for smart guys. SGA is like a geek lover's paradise. Atlantis - where even the military are nerds!

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! And just incase that wasn't clear.

John is great, because most of the time he'll let you know how intelligent he is as a matter of course. He doesn't want to conceal his brains, but usually doesn't want to brag about them - though there was that time he told Elizabeth 'Could have been Mensa'.

Both John and Rodney's genius is more to do with powers of deductive reasoning, the ability to put the facts together very quickly than some kind of savant-like skill.

I've been meaning to set up a 'Gorgeous Geeks' website for a while now. I was reminded of it not so long ago. Both John and Rodney qualify with hands down!

Part of my great love for SG-1 was because of Daniel - my first gorgeous geek crush. Then we got Jonas, another gorgeous geek IMHO (and for 3-5 eps both of them together). But now we have John, and Rodney, and Zelenka, and Carson too. So they're not all what we might initially call gorgeous, but they are all hot!

Yeah, we didn't need another 'actively pretends to be stupider than he actually is' flyboy. I adore Jack - but one Jack O'Neill is exactly the right amount of Jack O'Neill for any one reality!

Rodney really *is* a giant softie for animals, isn't he? It's like all the way back in Hide & Seek, when he was talking to Carson's mice

And don't forget about the mouse that he accidentally shot in Common Ground. That really seemed to bug him.

I do think that Rodney does have a soft spot for animals. Maybe that is why he went into physics as opposed to one of the life sciences...He didn't want to have do something were he might have to operate on or kill and discete one of the animals he was studying. (and given Rodney's tendency to think in the Worst Case Scenario, I can see him worrying about that no matter what the reality is)

I tend to agree that Rodney has a love of knowledge that drives him. I would go one step further and say at times his desire to learn more could cause problems. I am not saying that it is character fault - but I do think that drive is something that is a double edge sword and other then his love for his friends and his sister it is Rodney's Achilles' heal. I would love to see an episode that deals with that some day.

It also makes sense that a rather lonely kid with lousy social skills and a poor relationship with his parents would have enjoyed spending time around animals.

but I do think that drive is something that is a double edge sword and other then his love for his friends and his sister it is Rodney's Achilles' heal. I would love to see an episode that deals with that some day.

Wasn't that basically what "Trinity" was all about?

Wasn't that basically what "Trinity" was all about?

Maybe. I sort of saw as Rodney's ego combined with his need to make Collin's death mean something. It wasn't so much his desire to know as it was to show everyone he could do something the Ancients couldn't.

What I was thinking of something sort of like what happened in Alliences. I tend to think that if the Wraith had not pretended to give the city (Rodney) all the information about Wraith technology, I think that Rodney would have been a lot more suspicous of the Wraith then he was...but the Wraith knew exactly what bait to use to get Rodney on board as it were...

This episode was great. I too hadn't read any spoilers so was speculating about what was going on. It was great that everyone was in this episode. There were so many great moments - Ronon meditating, after the ear troubles Elizabeth, Rodney and Sheppard yelling, the boys "deaf and still snarking", the whumping, the special FX (is it just me or are they absolutely brilliant shots especially last weeks shot of Atlantis with the moon), clever whales, the Ronon concern in the infirmary for Teyla, the save the day plan, hehehe Rodney not protecting his assets this time when the Daedalus beamed him up, Ronon and Zelenka (I remember David Nykl talking about the camping scene at the Armageddon panel) and so many more.

I like that the episode ended with some sort of completion as often I feel like it's left hanging and then I wait for the fan fiction.

Yes, I was mentally going 'Angw said David N mentioned that' in that first scene! That was the only thing I knew about this episode - heck I didn't even know the name until I DL-ed! It's the best way of watching - everything is fresh and you are left to use your own brain to try and deduce what's going to happen.

It is good that they continued on from the return 2 with the loss/murder of the ancients - flowed on quite well.

All I wonder is that the Asurans only sent some of their community so they are still out there and must know that their plan to take over Atlantis failed.

Oh I have no doubt they'll be back. (and no, I don't know anything. Spoilers suck)

I also liked that they discussed having the 3 ZPMs. It occured to me a few days ago that the Asurans would have brought plural ZPMS with them, and I was wondering what teh fall out of that would be. I hope the Odyssey's ZPM will somehow help SG-1 to be more interesting!

Three ZPM's - so nicely resolved from the MMM episode - what would they do with them all, but share. Now I wish I could see SG1 for the cross over mention...Sam talking about getting the ZPM from Atlantis.

And nope don't know about the Asurans - pure speculation on my part and only 8 episodes to go...so much to happen.

They showed the moon last week? I'm gonna have to go back and look for that -- I didn't notice! I've been speculating for ages about whether or not Atlantis's planet has one.

hehehe Rodney not protecting his assets this time when the Daedalus beamed him up,

But I loved his "I'm gonna die" look. *hee*

And yeah, the f/x were just awesome this time, from the whale eye through the jumper window to the sun's surface. I wonder if their budget's higher this year, because so many of the episodes have had really spectacular visuals.

And yeah, we got neat little end scenes tying up the major storylines (and sweetly too!)

*loves show some more*

But I loved his "I'm gonna die" look. *hee*

And yet he goes...because Sheppard asked him to.

One moment I loved the look on Rodney's face when Radek mentioned "pigions" You could almost see the thought "Did he really just say pigions?"

The pigeons -- that was wonderful! I just love the funny in this show. It's probably the funniest SF show out there right now, and yet, thankfully, without tipping over into total comedy. It strikes a nice balance between silly and serious.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

3x12: Echoes

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject