sholio | 03x11: The Return Part 2

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episode reactions:sga

03x11: The Return Part 2

EDIT: This was originally friends-locked, but I'm going back and unlocking the old episode react posts, so ... now it's not!

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

I'm really torn on this episode for a number of reasons. Moment by moment, it was a giant barrel of squee, and just filled with lovely character bits. So many of them involved Rodney (SQUEE) -- his frightened-and-resigned "Oh no, not again" to the water pouring into the jumper; the headslap in the prison room (but a fake headslap, as it turned out, which is actually even cuter); Elizabeth congratulating him at the end and Rodney doing that cute embarrassed-about-receiving-praise thing that he does. But it wasn't just Rodney-moments; I loved Teyla doing the double-fisted-shooting thing in the chair room, and Elizabeth putting her hand on Sheppard's shoulder in the jumper after O'Neill tells him he's fired, and lots more. And GORGEOUS plot twist with the fake plan! Rodney, MY HERO! (Squees again.) And now we know that Rodney-the-lousy-liar is really more of a fanon invention: Rodney actually *can* act quite well, when he has to.

Viewed overall, though, and especially as the second half to the first episode, it was full of dead ends and just plain lapses in logic. So the Ancients, who know the city and its defenses inside and out, were all (conveniently) killed off-camera but the two humans -- including the total non-combatant -- escaped without a scratch, hmm? And the gateroom got destroyed, but luckily the Replicators rebuilt it exactly as it was before! And the star drive got rebuilt too ... but they destroyed that with the drones, so we're back to square one there again. And there are no consequences for anybody for violating orders; the main team is back in the city, and presumably they'll get all the same personnel back, too. It's like pushing a giant reset button. Much short-term squee; much long-term disappointment, really. Honestly, I wasn't expecting any consequences anyway, but the Ancients were just such a GIGANTIC maguffin, even for this show ... it vexed me, really, to see ZERO fallout from that.

I'm kinda torn about Richard Dean Anderson's role in this episode. I'm maybe one of the few who doesn't mind seeing the SG-1 characters on SGA; I still love Jack after all these years, and I really enjoyed him in this episode. (I was especially impressed at RDA's expressive facial expressions underwater. I mean, DAMN.) But the ultimate result of having him around so much was that the main characters didn't get to do as much. The underwater scene, for example, would have been tenser and more enjoyable for me if it'd been one of the team in the flooded room rather than an outsider, even though it's an outsider I love -- on his OWN show -- as a character and actor. Ditto on the mind-probe. Like the episode in general, there was a lot of short-term squee over the Jack scenes but as a whole, I didn't think it held up that well.

Okay, now what am I going to do for the rest of the day? My little cup of squee runneth over. I'm supposed to be cleaning the house -- the in-laws are coming for Thanksgiving -- but right now that's the absolute last thing I want to do.

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I am very much with you in squeeeeeeing, and the huh-moment.

I figured the Replicators had been after the Ancients, more so than O'Neill and Woosley...also, Jack would not underestimate the Replicators. Those arrogant Ancients just might me over-confident. It was very, very convenient, but yes! No annoying, mean, arrogant, holier than thou Ancients left!

It was a great comeback. Exciting, smart, funny and so dissimilar to the heaviness of 03x01. It was nice to come back after the hiatus with a rather light episode.

I would've liked to see a Jack-John scene and would like to see some fallout from John's actions within the military hierarchy, but despite all his shenanigans on SG-1, Jack never got much of a tap on the wrist, so...it's unlikely :)

Many things were glossed over because it was convenient, and easy, to do so, but I can't say it took away from the squee.

Of course, Rodney being incredibly smart is always a big bonus :) And John's flying! Yes, it's CG, but, well, it's still John flying! Awesome!

Thank you, squeeing buddy!

Oh yes, the flying scenes were TOO cool! I love the CGI on this show -- and I'm not sure why, because I very often don't, but it's just ... the way they do it, or something, I don't know. That one shot in the middle, where they're panning up Atlantis with the sun peeking around the tower, I just had to stop and replay it -- so gorgeous!

I enjoyed the light tone, although at times it was a trifle weird considering the life-and-death nature of the events happening around them; I described it to my sister as "Our city has been taken over by our worst nightmare, and we're all about to die -- BUT WE'RE HAVING SO MUCH FUN!" And yet ... it's just so very ... them.

LOL

Good description

LOL

I think that after the emotional wallop of "The Return, Pt. 1," this episode was a let-down. Not to say that it wasn't good and exciting in places. As I was watching it, I was thinking "How are they going to get out of this mess?" But consider "The Hive," as an example of a backend season opener and all of the great heights that we scaled watching it. Also, "The Eye," with its ratcheted tension that just got higher and higher as the episode went on.

"The Return, Pt. 2" had some great team moments and, of course, lots of Rodney to squee over. But Teyla? And Carson? Again, marginalized. (And you know how I feel about Teyla!) The resolving scene at the end was between Weir and O'Neill, when, rightfully, that place ought to have been filled by the Atlantis folk. Weir and O'Neill simply don't possess the warmth needed to carry the moment and they certainly don't have the history.

The fact that there were no apparent consequences was a bit too neat. The show is fueled by the threat of dangers everywhere--Wraith, Replicators, Genii--and the "outpost" feel of the expedition has been its strength in terms of how the people have banded together. It is as if the expedition considers itself independent of Earth, almost having abdicated their citizenship of that planet. Some great fics have come out of this concept and the consequences in those stories were always dire, which helped make the stories so damned good. Now, in the real series, we get this small, defiant team and...nothing happens to them. Yes, they saved the day, but still...no busting people down to private? No military take-over of the program?

On the OTHER hand, underwater jumper bay? Loved it! All of the technical stuff, even the stuff that I didn't necessarily understand? Loved it? Sheppard's flying to avoid the drones? Bring it effing on!

So, yeah, there was a lot of good stuff. I don't mean to trash the episode, I'm just saying how it could have been even better.

Sorry to babble on! I do this sometimes.

The end scene was the one part of the episode where I felt cheated, because I *did* want to see more reaction stuff with the team, and was disappointed to get Weir and O'Neill instead. I actually like their interaction, but I still wanted team. *sniffle*

I did think about "The Eye" occasionally while watching this, and it didn't measure up very well. I think "Eye" was a much stronger episode, overall. On the other hand, I didn't really like "Hive" -- though I'm still not sure why. So, for me, the mid-season finales have been kind of a mixed bag. This one kind of fell in the middle of the road: not the greatest episode this show has produced, by a long shot, but full of moments that delighted me, which goes a long way towards making up for its inadequacies. It had a similar feel to "Progeny" for me -- where plotwise, there were about a dozen things I didn't like about it, but the squee-factor was so high that I just didn't care. (Of course, I am very shallow. Give me John and Rodney and snark, and I'll be willing to overlook a LOT.)

Even though Teyla wasn't in it very much, I was happy with what we did see of her; in just a couple of short scenes, she got to be both technically savvy and badass with a gun, which is a lovely combination.

Okay, as my fellow Carson fen, here, did you notice the way they're setting Carson up to be the fall guy for the SGC? Landry in Return 1, and now O'Neill in Return 2, both have made very disparaging remarks to Carson, and then we get his reaction. The first time it was odd; this time it was "oh, LOOK! We ARE SETTING CARSON UP!"

Or not. ;-)

I'll have to agree with the general assessment, loved the first half, the Jumper backing out through the wall of the Gate room, just... GUH. That was visceral. I didn't mind Jack, he's always been my favorite from SG1. ("I like to close my eyes and think of England!" BWAH!!) More reaction from the gang would have been nice. But I loved Elizabeth cornering Jack and insisting he let them stay--and that hug! Nice continuity from The Eye (which remains their best mid-season cliffhanger resolution.)

Then again, the idiot complacency of the Replicators, the conveniently dead Ancients, and the presto! bango! Repairo! magical reappearing Gate room, not so much. Nor do I like the negative tone they're taking with Carson. I'm dead positive it's the set up for a breakdown on his part, and we know where that's supposed to lead. Meh.

friendshipper, I love your assessment of the SGA guys being the "Misfits" of the SGC. Too true, and it's perfect for them. SG1 makes a great "favored child," and then we have SGA, the red-headed step child in the Pegasus Galaxy. That's one of the things I do love about the Stargate shows, that they didn't try to completely replicate SG1 with Atlantis, and they've let it develop its own feel and way of doing things.

I do sense impending awful with Carsoj, now. When he did his "goodbye" scene in Part 1, it really creeped me out for the same reason.

What is your speculation on this "breakdown" you mentioned?

That's one of the things I do love about the Stargate shows, that they didn't try to completely replicate SG1 with Atlantis, and they've let it develop its own feel and way of doing things.

Oh yes! I think that's what makes SGA work as well as it does. Otherwise it would just be an SG-1 knockoff -- if they'd done, say, a spinoff about one of the other SG-1 teams, I don't think it would have worked nearly as well, because the parent series has already mined that territory. Here, there are tons of new story ideas to explore.

And the different "feel" of the two shows makes them appeal to slightly different sorts of people, I think. I really enjoyed SG-1 back in the day and read tons of fic for it, but I never got massively fannish the way that I have for SGA. Something about SGA tripped my fan-o-meter in a way that SG-1 never did.

I don't know if they are setting something with Carson. One thing they might be setting up is how some of the SGC under esimate Carson, because even though Carson didn't get that much screen time, he did play an important part in the mission. And it clear that even if Landry and Jack don't fully trust Carson, it is equally clear that Elizabeth, Sheppard, Rodney, Teyla and Ronon do.

Also, I can sort of understand Jack's reaction. Let's not forget what happened back in the pilot, when Carson almost killed Jack. True, Carson has come a long way in the past two and half years, but Jack as not seen any of that. He may think that Carson is a decent Doctor (or geek) but that doesn't mean he is going to think much (or even know about) Carson's fighting abilties. And don't forget, I don't think he was to thrilled with Weir being there as well.

See, that's all I saw in that scene -- just Jack being Jack. He's always been that way with civilians in a military setting; remember how he was with Daniel, once upon a time?

Actually, that scene does a nice job of highlighting the differences between Jack and Sheppard -- and between Atlantis and the SGC in general. Sheppard thinks nothing of going into a combat situation with four civilians at his back; the thought doesn't really occur to him to do otherwise. They are the people he trusts the most. Jack, on the other hand, looks at Sheppard running off into combat with four civilians and thinks he's utterly insane.

True. And let's not forget the scienist back at the SGC never were good at the front line stuff. Many times they caused more problems then they solved.

However, I am not sure if Jack would think of Ronon and Teyla as civilians, anymore then he would think of Teal'c as a civilian. Maybe more Ronon then Teyla...as it clear that Ronon has spent some time in the miltary - just not an Earth one. Either way, I think would consider them warriors - and even better ones that knew the city. So bringing along them made sense.

It was bringing along Weir, Carson and McKay that made Jack wonder about Sheppard's sainty...

Yeah, I think you're right about Teyla and Ronon. And I just realized that I miscounted the civilians in any case. Oops!

Poor Jack, surrounded by civilians and lunatics. Who still undeniably manage to save the day ... somehow. "Plan D, works every time." ;)

I've been waiting about 3 weeks to use that icon! Woot!

Friendshipper - we're doing the brain share thing again! Yes, to everything you said! And to pretty much everything anyone who commented before me said.

I would just like to proclaim that *RODNEY MCKAY IS THE SMARTEST BEING IN ALL FIVE OR SO GALAXIES WE'VE EVER SEEN IN THE HISTORY OF STARGATE!!!*

I'm sure I wasn't the only one gasping in horror as John rammed the jumper through the side of the control tower, as they blew it up, and then proceded get various other bits of the city blown up. I don't really care if you do that tp Cheyenne Mountain (and I'm an SG-1 fan) but not to Atlantis. She's too beautiful and amazing....

The first half was exhilarating. Explosions, John's awesome flying (watch it and weep Mitchell!), under-water flying, under-water jumper bay, etc etc, but attention was increasingly leeched away from our guys as the episode progressed. I loved Jack being there - he was funny, and not in an annoying way, but he was there too much - though lookie - I think he beat Jonas Quinn's under-water record!

I was waiting for a team *we're all back in Atlantis - let's all show our emotional reaction to that in our various disfunctional ways* scene, and was pissed that we were cheated of that.

Concerning this being light.... well it had more humour than s1&2 mid-season 2-parters, but it wasn't light. There was alot going on, and I think it was more exciting and had a more effective cliffhanger than the s3 opener. Then again, this is the first time I've had to wait 8 weeks for the second half... And yet, there was still a strong sense of *here's a bunch of screw-ups, they're gonna mess up all over the place, but they're still way better than anyone else when they work together.*

BTW - fun fact of the episode - Rodney did Am Dram as a kid! Like we couldn't have guessed that! Oh and John - it's so damn obvious you wouldn't want Rodney anywhere else but by your side, but yeah - keep up the snarking, we want more.

So the verdict = a rollercoaster.

Oh, I was totally AAAIIIEEEE BUH WHA WTF? when they blew up the gateroom. On the other hand, I did guess that the Replicators could rebuild it, so it was a short-lived WTF? moment. But still -- that fireball going up from the tower made my jaw drop. I agree with you about Atlantis; I have rarely loved a fictional setting so much, and seeing it being damaged was kind of ... ow. (On the other hand, the space engines powering up *totally* made me squee, and then I was kind of disappointed when they disabled them. Aww!)

And yet, there was still a strong sense of *here's a bunch of screw-ups, they're gonna mess up all over the place, but they're still way better than anyone else when they work together.

O'Neill's reaction to this particular group of people showing up to rescue him was *priceless*, the "oh god, it's THEM" look. And how he didn't believe that they'd actually accomplish anything. HEE.

One of the things I've loved about the Return 2-parter is how it's made so clear that these guys are the second string of the SGC -- and yet, not in a *bad* way. More like an A-Team kind of way, where you just know if you call them you're going to get bickering and property damage and a passle of unforeseen consequences ... and yet, they'll somehow pull a miracle out of their butts. And I think that the underdog thing is a big part of why I love them so. I still have a giant soft spot for the SG-1 team, don't get me wrong. But where SG-1 are the golden children of the SGC, the Atlantis crew are like the Isle of Misfit Toys of the Stargate universe. They're flawed and petty and easily distracted, and their problem-solving approach is like watching the Keystone Kops with space guns ... and yet, they do the job, every time! Even though no one believes they can do it, including *them* quite a lot of the time. SQUEE!

Oh and John - it's so damn obvious you wouldn't want Rodney anywhere else but by your side, but yeah - keep up the snarking, we want more.

LOL! Too true! And this is why I don't really get the "John is so mean to Rodney" camp of the fandom. Because yeah, John's mean to Rodney, the same way that the whole Atlantis gang is mean to each other. But when he split up the teams, who did he take with him? Rodney! Who gets the co-pilot's seat? Rodney! Who does he trust to save the day every time? Rodney, of course! There is just so much obvious affection and trust underneath the snark.

Yeah, that bit in 'Progeny' when the Replicators flew their city was amazing, but the idea of Atlantis flying - so cool!

I particularly liked Jack's reaction to Beckett being on the team... and Beckett's indignation! I wonder how long Beckett was at the SGC before he got weepy on someone?!

Yep, yep, and yep concerning the contrast between SG-1 and our guys. Mitchell's such a straight arrow you could use him as a ruler!

They're all horrible to each other. It's their thing. It's how they show their friendship. And yes, the moment splitting into teams was tabled, I knew John and Rodney would end up together. It's like life and oxygen.

You know, it was just hours ago that I was beginning to pout and get cravings for new SGA. Then it appeared... Must sleep - is 3.08am!

They're all horrible to each other. It's their thing. It's how they show their friendship. And yes, the moment splitting into teams was tabled, I knew John and Rodney would end up together. It's like life and oxygen.

*grin* Yup. Just a big happy dysfunctional family, that bunch. And I wouldn't want them any other way!

Okay, being one of the fans that's in it purely for the John and Rodney friendship...I don't get the "mean" thing either. John isn't mean to Rodney. Not unless it was deserved, and admit it, sometimes it is, but that's a friendship for you. Did they have a moment together in this episode that stood out? Anything particular that was fun, or a tell-all glance, maybe?

There was a lovely smack upside the head (John to Rodney, naturally). Otherwise it was pretty low-key; we get some banter and, once again, they demonstrate how smoothly they work together as a team. And there was one of John's half-grins thrown in Rodney's direction when Rodney saved the day. That's pretty much what I noticed ...

And yes, I agree with you. The nice thing about their friendship is that not only can it survive rudeness, but it thrives on it. I can't ever remember an example of John being truly, gratuitously *mean* to Rodney. Teasing, mocking, and often stabbing him in the ego, yes. But Rodney walks all over people who don't do that.

P.S., thanks for putting all of this under a cut tag; I don't get to watch the episodes when they actually air so it's nice not to be spoiled, however unintentionally, by my f'list.

Oh, you're welcome! It just seems common courtesy to me. Of course, I'm a general spoiler-phobe, so I try to be conscientious about it.

Hey, meant to reply to this post before, but I forgot to! I still haven't seen it yet - just going by the transcript I found and my interpretations of everyone's comments about the episode.

It really does sound like an awesome episode based on everything I've seen so far. I also totally get what you're saying about some of the stuff weren't to happy with, but at the same time I can understand why they handled it the way they did - I discussed some of it in my own post about the episode, don't know if you saw that yet.

Basically after 10 years of SG1 I don't really expect them to ever show any kind of resolution or fallout from stuff that happens - I KNOW they almost never do so I'm not disappointed by it. *shrug* It may just be me being me and the way I look at a show with my "it is what it is" attitude. :O)

Basically after 10 years of SG1 I don't really expect them to ever show any kind of resolution or fallout from stuff that happens - I KNOW they almost never do so I'm not disappointed by it. *shrug* It may just be me being me and the way I look at a show with my "it is what it is" attitude. :O)

Oh yeah, I know. And it really doesn't bother me enough to detract from my enjoyment of the episode, although it does make me feel like I shouldn't have enjoyed it *quite* as much as I did because of those problems. But still ... the squee factor was high enough that I didn't really care.

Gotta say, I agree with your assessment. Loved the episode, but the 'reset' button made things a little too easy. I wished they'd used less of the SG1 stuff, and gave us more SGA team!

I gibbered with glee when they hit the rewind button! YES! McKay blabbing the idea wasn't a big mistake! Loved that. Loved how McKay said that it was a 'group effort' when he was complimented. I don't understand people who say that McKay always takes all the praise for himself -- I always see him giving credit where credit is due

Great episode... but too easily cleaned up at the end.

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03x11: The Return Part 2

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Yup