SGA 5x05

[sholio]

I ... um ... oh, SHOW.

I haven't felt this frustrated and unhappy with an episode since "Misbegotten". Not in a "... it was a bad episode!" kind of way, but more of a "BAD characters, BAD!" kind of way.

There were things I really liked about the episode - lots of little bits I liked (from flying monkeys! to the genuine shock of seeing Elizabeth's name on the screen - I was unspoiled for this one - to Woolsey's seriously awesome negotiating abilities, to Teyla and Elizabeth talking about her baby) but ... OH TEAM NO pretty much sums it up.

I can understand their worries about Elizabeth having been compromised or not really being who she claims to be. Really, I can. These are very valid fears! I would wonder about them if they didn't have them! And, honestly, considering that Elizabeth or pseudo-Elizabeth almost KILLED them at the beginning, she's definitely not quite playing from a full deck of cards anymore, even if this really IS original!Elizabeth and not a 2nd-generation copy (of which I'm far from convinced).

But, just how exactly did we get from doing anything for team/family, to betraying a member of said team/family without even TRYING to fix her and sending her to what basically amounts to her death? Even if she's not fully compos mentis anymore? Even if they're not 100% sure she's herself? Even if, at the end, she kinda seemed to "get" (and accept) what they were doing and played along anyway? They STILL treated her as an outsider throughout the episode, and dealt her a really nasty turn at the end. I was appreciative (and a bit surprised) that they were willing to help as much as they did, and Rodney a) accepting responsibility and b) wanting to fix Elizabeth's situation was a really nice surprise, but I just felt icked at the end, both by the "only good Replicator is a dead Replicator" mentality and by what they did to ELIZABETH, of all people. Especially since the implication at the end is that they recognized, through her willingness to sacrifice herself, that this really was Elizabeth (or at least something/someone essentially similar) and so - THEY JUST LEFT HER THERE?!

... and NOW, the next scene is the one where they send a jumper through to scoop up frozen Elizabeth and bring her back so she can build herself a human body, right? RIGHT?

*sigh*

I am reminded again why I actually like this show better when they don't actually try to deal with the darker implications of their more questionable actions, and just focus on the "dorks exploring the galaxy" side of things.

Comments

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

Well I thought it was a bad episode as well as "bad characters, bad!". It wasn't interesting. I wasn't paying much attention toward the end, because the first half hadn't grabbed me, so I don't really have too many thoughts on that.

Easiest solution would have been "find a non-Stargated planet and leave them there". I mean they couldn't replicate, right? They could even have given them the human body tech and come back later to see what happened.

Yeah, there were a few little things I liked - what you've mentioned and Woolsey's steely-eyed bluff, but other than that? What was the point of this episode other than to "close off" Weir's character? Man, the Weir fans are going to be PISSED!!!

[sholio]

I actually did really like the character bits at the beginning (the team in the jumper, Rodney bickering with Zelenka - and, oh man, being pretty much unspoiled for this season, I was genuinely freaked out that Zelenka was going to die this episode! DO NOT SPOIL ME).

But, yeah - I mean, I do realize that they were afraid of what the Replicators might do (build a ship and start replicating, etc) but they really *could* have tried to help them and kept tabs on them, rather than just throwing them to the wolves. At least they didn't just disintegrate them; I was actually sort of scared that they'd sent them into a supernova or something ...

Man, the Weir fans are going to be PISSED!!!

That bugged me, too. This episode felt a little bit like a slap in the face to the actress and to her fans - hey, here's your favorite character back again, and now she's ... played by a different actress, betrayed and dead! I was never that much of an Elizabeth fan, but this upset me on their behalf.

[deaka.livejournal.com]

I know! I was doing okay up until the ending - it wasn't great, but considering they were working without Torri as Weir, I could make allowances - but, ugh, that last part just seemed sloppy. I get the feeling that TPTB just wanted Weir gone once and for all. Because if it wasn't for that, why couldn't Atlantis have done what they were pretending to do, and put them on an uninhabited world somewhere? It definitely made for frustrating viewing.

[sholio]

I think the only thing that makes it even remotely palatable is that the Replicators have already shown themselves to be able to jump into subspace - yes, they were trying to get OUT of that situation, but it would be almost impossible to isolate them without deactivating them. But, still - I'm with you, I think it felt like a way of hastily "killing" Elizabeth in a way that allows them to resurrect her if they ever need her for another episode. The Atlanteans' total refusal to negotiate after *one* Replicator proved untrustworthy made me very uncomfortable.

[lavvyan.livejournal.com]

Amen. Though, FWIW, I think the plan was Elizabeth's idea.

[iamrighthere.livejournal.com]

That's what I was thinking. The plan had "Weir" stamped all over it.

[iamrighthere.livejournal.com]

Because I hated the X-Files episode by the same name, I went into watching "Ghost in the Machine" with more than a little doubt. I wasn't disappointed. I enjoyed the discussion of flying monkies and hope that we get to see them one of these days. Michelle Morgan channeled Weir effectively, as well. The idea of sending consciousness through subspace intrigues, especially if it can zap people to death.

Other than that, the episode wasn't all that kicky or exciting. I can understand why Sheppard et al would keep guns trained on the Replicators the whole time, even if they believed that Fran was Weir.

In the end, I got the impression that Weir/Fran and her mates were spaced to keep them handy for future episodes. And, also, it was an effective end to the episode--although I suspected that they would be spaced instead of sent to "a farm." That it may have been Weir's idea made the spacing even cooler. Still, I'm looking forward to next week's episode and, to hear David Hewlett talk, it sounds like an incredible hour to TV. (See? No spoiler!)

[tabby333.livejournal.com]

It's Elizabeth herself who says she doesn't trust the others or herself any longer to continue to behave. Also, when she went through first and then let the other Replicators think it was safe to go through. So, yeah, I think the plan was Elizabeth's.

So I'm okay with the plan, sort of. It's completely in keeping with her willingess to sacrifice herself. That last scene felt cold and hopeless and gut-wrenching, but I don't think there's anything else they could do with a race that can be so dangerous. I don't think Elizabeth would want them to come wake her, though it might have been nice if they could figureo out how to put her into the VR as they did Ava.

I liked the beginning of the episode and Rodney and John's guilt and Teyla's increasing unease with her. I also bet this was a tough one to write and keep balanced between the fear of Replicators and the love for Elizabeth (and the oh so strong desire to trust her even though she's been compromised.) I respect the SGA PTB for trying it.

[bironic.livejournal.com]

Things I liked: The title ("I read an SGA story with that title once," I said to my sister, "and I have a feeling it will have been better than this episode"); most of the beginning banter, and the graphic where the jumper glanced off the 'gate (did we know that space 'gates could realign themselves?); the horror-and-sci-fi feeling of the first half, with subspace poltergeists, and an unknown entity stuck in the computer, and then the breakaway Replicator staring so eerily at Ronon before the lights went out; the brief implication that Zelenka was going to die; Teyla's understated discomfort with Fran-Weir; the way the episode managed to have Weir without having Torri H. at all; Sheppard wielding a gun in each hand; Weir taking a look at herself and realizing she may not be the person she thought she still was.

Things I did not like: That the episode basically had no point, bringing Weir back only to leave her where they'd left her before, namely, out of the picture but ready to return whenever the actress and/or producers feel like it; Rodney having to go through the guilt of what he did to Weir again; John having to grieve again; the way Ronon doesn't get much to do in general but be distrustful and shoot things; the way nobody seemed to have any anti-Replicator weapons on hand anymore.

I may be wrong -- I've only seen the episode once, and I tend to miss or misinterpret things -- but I was under the impression that Fran-Weir had agreed with the SGA folks to lead her people into space, and that's how she broadcasted back so calmly that it was safe. I'm not clear on whether in these nanite bodies she communicates with the others only when she wants to consciously broadcast, or whether they're always linked like they were when they were ordinary Replicators; because if it's the latter, it's more likely Weir wasn't in on the plan, lest the others discover what was going on and balk.

[sholio]

("I read an SGA story with that title once," I said to my sister, "and I have a feeling it will have been better than this episode")

*laughs* I must admit that I did notice the similarity of the title ... but it was an extremely appropriate name for this particular episode!

I'm not clear on whether in these nanite bodies she communicates with the others only when she wants to consciously broadcast, or whether they're always linked like they were when they were ordinary Replicators; because if it's the latter, it's more likely Weir wasn't in on the plan, lest the others discover what was going on and balk.

That was actually one of the reasons why my original interpretation was that Weir wasn't in on the plan, but just played along once she realized what they had done. However, she didn't seem to be aware of whatsisface the scientist's betrayal, so it's possible that these particular Replicators are able to isolate themselves.

the way nobody seemed to have any anti-Replicator weapons on hand anymore.

I wondered about that, too. On the other hand, since it's been a year since they needed them, I can totally fanwank that the SGC asked to have their super-expensive Replicator guns back if they weren't being used. *g*

[marf-the-river.livejournal.com]

This certainly wasn't my favourite episode, but...I can see how, if I thought a friend had betrayed me, and then found out they had willingly put me in danger, they might not seem such a friendly face after that.

Granted, it was an easy "deal with the character" thing do to - you're not Elizabeth Weir, John says - but I'm not all that upset about it because I got the impression that this was Elizabeth's idea. Her "I think I know how I can finally set things right" and telling the other Replicators that it's safe hints at that. She sacrificed herself once to save Atlantis, it stands to reason that she would again. And it did remind me a lot of Carson - let's put them on ice for a while, see if we want them later.

Not the best episode, but at least they didn't kill her outright.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

See, now I see it differently. I see it not as the Atlanteans betraying Elizabeth, but of Elizabeth choosing, once again, to sacrifice herself. It was far too dangerous to trust the other Replicators because of Corzon's (or whatever his name was) actions. If one could not be trusted, none of them could be trusted. Even with the limitations that Rodney's machine put on them, it was not enough to keep at least one of them from having a hidden agenda. And if he could figure out how to remove Rodney's failsafes, then it was just a tiny step to the return of the Replicators.

I think it was pretty obvious that Elizabeth was fully aware of where she was going because she sent back word that it was safe.

Even if they put them on a planet without a stargate, there would always be a worry that they would be able to somehow rework their bodies into that of true Replicators. THAT CANNOT BE ALLOWED! The Replicators are far, far too dangerous.

Perhaps Rodney himself is going to work on a way to fix them. Perhaps not. But while they are in space, they can be retrieved, as was Niam. They've been put in cold-storage, not destroyed.

Frankly, I loved every minute of this episode, and have no problem with the ending because I was feeling shocked that they were just going to let them go. I could not believe they'd be that naive. I was relieved when I saw them floating in space. Frankly, I would have dialed an orbital gate, too.

[leesa_perrie]

I agree with you, it was Elizabeth's idea to do this. Though I didn't love every minute of the episode, but did like much of it. And hey, Rodney fell asleep at his desk! Fanon is canon!!

Only thing to take into account is that if they don't retrieve the bodies within a certain timeframe then they will run out of energy - from The Return P2:

BECKETT: He's been floating in space for over a month now. Existing in such a harsh environment, direct solar radiation has severely diminished his power levels. We're fairly certain he's almost completely incapacitated.

DEX: Is he dead?

McKAY: As in "mostly dead." Besides, we don't have a choice. He's the key to our whole plan.

Obviously, Niam was not as dead as they thought, but the fact remains that in time Elizabeth and co will die unless rescued. Just something to think about.

I'm not keen on the ending, but I'm not worried about it too much as it was Elizabeth's idea and I'm sure she could persuade any doubters.

[sgatazmy.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. The ending left me sickk to my stomach.

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

I actually liked this episode a lot; but clinging to straws past all reason, and dealing with the implications, is a bit of a favorite theme of mine, which, come to think, may be why the S3 finale of Dr. Who has made me totally fan that show.

Not being clear, am I? Um, I plead a sleep-over last night, extra kids ages 4, 6, and 10, who were lovely but on top of a week in which I didn't sleep enough... guh, I'd punt this, but clicking 'post comment' is easier...

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Even if, at the end, she kinda seemed to "get" (and accept) what they were doing and played along anyway?

I don't think there was no 'accepting' seemed like her plan to me. She told Rodney that she knew that him reactivating the nantines was a bad idea back in "Lifeline", and to me her admission and that whole conversation was 'let's set this straight'..I never got the impression she wasn't tricked-in fact--it was her plan-- she had to cooperate in order her fellow replicas went along when they sensed her go through the gate.

It was harsh, stunning and left me pretty sad..but it was her choice to die...to basically 'fix' what should have never been done in the first place.

And the fact she's frozen does mean they might one day be able to really fix her, though its doubtful.

Yes, they are all family, but in their shoes..eek I would have done the same. She and her counter parts really posed a threat (no matter how it didn't seem at the time) that would have bitten them in the ass if not that year..ten. They did try to help, bent over backwards--when they were betrayed and shown once again that the replicators were untrustful, I think it was the best thing to do.

Though I wonder why no AV enviroment though was my only grumble--but again if it was Elizabeth's plan...then she didn't want to live in a fake world.

[argosy.livejournal.com]

I liked the ending, devastating though it was. I probably liked it because it was devastating. I'll have to watch the ep again, but to me at the time it seemed pretty obvious that it was Elizabeth's plan and that the Atlantis crew was devastated by it (sorry to use that word so much. I just woke up and my synonyms aren't working). I really felt they bowed to her wishes. To me it didn't seem like there was any "kinda getting" abut it.

I really like that Elizabeth would do that for her people when she believes she can't trust herself or the others anymore. They could have put in a scene of "no, there has to be another way" to try to talk Elizabeth out of it, but I think that would have diluted the impact.

So yeah, sad and tough, but I think a good way of dealing with it all. I felt the most bad for the "innocent" replicators who walked through gate unknowingly.

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

First off, I'm with you on all the likes -- especially Woolsey. I thought he was awesome. (And I wonder how much of it was his thought that, perhaps, Elizabeth was not being fully truthful about her control over them. I think it's why he turned his back on her. We know later that she wasn't being wholly honest...)

Meanwhile, gotta agree with the others on the ending, FS. I'm absolutely certain this was Elizabeth's plan/idea. She led the other replicators out to hibernate gently in space.

(Not that I buy that it was an ending. They're not going to go anywhere, since they're in the same orbit as the gate, meaning they (or she) could be retrieved.)

I do think a Virtual World would have been kinder, but, unlike Ava, who doesn't know she's in a virtual world, they would have known it was fake and I don't think you could trust them in there not to escape.

As to how I felt about the episode -- I agree with bironic up above. I had the same feeling, that it was sort of pointless. That after it was over, everything was left static. (well except for informing them about their technologically advanced people in the galaxy elsewhere and couldn't Elizabeth have told them where that handy dandy ancient warship might be? So, tiny amount of set up, but not much else.)

But you're ultimate question is whether this went against their "family" mentality, and I don't think it did. Mostly because I wasn't convinced it was Elizabeth--I think they saw a machine with her memories in it, but it wasn't her. John and Teyla were clearly on the fence (actually, I think John was mostly on the negative side), and Ronon absolutely didn't believe it was her. I think Rodney was the only one who did, which was why he was the only one really fighting for her. I think his broken words at the end, asking them if they still believed it wasn't her, showed he had accepted her decision to "die" in that way but hadn't liked it AND that he thought they'd made the wrong decision.

Funnily, the only thing that bothered me about the story was the calling back of the "bad idea." I'm still not convinced it was a bad idea, not for Atlantis. Maybe it was a bad idea for Elizabeth (though I'm not convinced of even that--since I think Rodney was proved right when Elizabeth sacrificed herself for them in Lifeline), but not the others. If Rodney hadn't done it, they wouldn't have gotten the ZPM that saved them. Moreover, later, dupli-Elizabeth was able to warn Rodney about the replicators attacking other worlds and she gave him that handy dandy "find the replicator warships" tech. I don't know--maybe I'm rationalizing, but I have a hard time whenever Rodney's called on it.

[sholio]

Getting all the different opinions on the episode is helping a lot with my overall negativity towards it. I still feel uncomfortable about it, but not as *thoroughly* weirded out as I had been.

The idea that it had been Elizabeth's idea had not even occurred to me, but I see that quite a few people felt likewise.

I'm not sure if I agree that it was pointless, though - we got confirmation of Elizabeth's fate (previously, we'd only had pseudo-Elizabeth's word that she'd died), we got closure (of a sort) on that glimpse of Elizabeth on the ship after the Replicator homeworld was destroyed, and we added to what we know about Replicator capabilities. I don't know about you, but to me, Replicators in subspace - able to travel anywhere, through any barrier, kill people by making their equipment go haywire and recreate bodies for themselves if they have access to the technology to do it - are one of the creepiest ideas this show has come up with so far. Plus, it was a nice touchstone to earlier episodes. (It would've been a nicer touchstone if it hadn't left us pretty much where we were before, but I'm more okay with that now than I was.)

I think my big problem with the episode, even more than the betrayal at the end (which, as you and others have pointed out, may not have been a betrayal at all) is the way that the whole focus of the episode was not on "how can we save Elizabeth, our friend" but "how can we protect ourselves from Elizabeth and the Replicators". While that *is* a legitimate threat, certainly, it left a bad taste in my mouth when it was contrasted against episodes like "Broken Ties", where the whole focus of the episode is on trying to rescue Ronon and get him back to normal, *not* on trying to take him out before he can take them out.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

I don't think Elizabeth "accepted" what they were doing - she proposed it. They were still going to go back to the VR option I think but it was Elizabeth who came to them and said that the replicators - including herself - were always going to be a threat and that she'd though of a solution to put things right. I honestly kinda feel after all she'd been through Elizabeth didn't want to carry on any longer... the events of GitM made her realise that she wasn't the Elizabeth she had been and she had never wanted any of this to happen and I do kinda feel like she chose to end it because she'd already been changed so far beyond what she was and she didn't want to carry on that way... :/

[mary-alice.livejournal.com]

I wasn't happy with the ending of this one, either. Anything that has the capacity to want to be more than it is counts as "people" in my book. Yes, Replicators are dangerous, but both SG1 and SGA have repeated shown us situations where peaceful Replicators trust humans only to be betrayed by them, so I felt really bad for Elizabeth's followers. Furthermore, if Replicators are people, then condemning all of them for the actions of one is pretty hypocritical, given humanity's history, and a remarkable decision on Elizabeth's part (since she spent her early career as a negociator between warring countries). To me, it really came off more as "Elizabeth's suicidal" than a reasoned decision. Also, the "rogue" Replicator was simply trying to get away from Atlantis, and didn't seem to be doing more than moving people out of his way. There was a certain degree of enthusiasm in the moving, but still... I didn't see anything in his actions other than a self-centered need to survive, which really is not an uncommon character flaw even in humans.

So, Not Happy. Really nice character moments through-out the ep, but the ending was just a Clean Miss, to me.

[scarym1.livejournal.com]

I don't see this as Atlantis declaring the Replicator lives as having less value then human lives. As sad and tragic as the ending was I think that was the only solution. As much as Atlantis would love to trust Weir they can't. I think that did come to believe it was really her.

I compare it to having a lion living with you may think it is domesticated and harmless but one day it will surprise you and bite your head off. It is like that saying "a leopard can't change it's spots". No matter how much they may want to the replicators can't change their innate nature which is to replicate and take over. I don't believe it could ever be written out of them completely.

At the end it was my sense that the team was going to trust Elizabeth and actually let them all stay. It was so tragic that it was Elizabeth who had to come to the conclusion they couldn't be trusted. That it was her plan to betray the other replicators and therefore sacrificing herself once again for the safety of Atlantis.

[roga.livejournal.com]

I was shocked they were going to let them go at the end, so it made sense to me that in the end, they weren't. Like others, I read it (or prefer to read it) as being Elizabeth's plan all along, even though I think she'd have gone along with it even if it were a betrayal, so there's no way to know.

WTF moment: why, exactly, did they think shooting at replicators with regular bullets would do any good? Am I forgetting something here?

Four moments I liked:

1) After Elizabeth told them they'd traveled to a few other technologically advanced societies and everyone looked surprised and Rodney asked, "On Pegasus?", there was a cut to a long close up of Ronon, as if he was thinking, Yes, you fuckers, on Pegasus. I loved that.

2) Teyla and Elizabeth's conversation about the baby: when Elizabeth asks her if he's on Atlantis, Teyla gives her a long look and finally answers that he's not. And I totally read that as Teyla lying - as her really wanting to trust Elizabeth, but ultimately not when it comes to her kid, so she'd prefer to just keep him away from her.

3) Rodney on Ronon - "All he does all day is talk talk talk, can't shut him up..."

4) Ronon keeping watch over the replicators and then the lights shutting down - just because it was scary.

Also, naturally, the flying monkeys.

Rest of the episode: *yawn*.

[sholio]

After Elizabeth told them they'd traveled to a few other technologically advanced societies and everyone looked surprised and Rodney asked, "On Pegasus?", there was a cut to a long close up of Ronon, as if he was thinking, Yes, you fuckers, on Pegasus. I loved that.

Ha. I loved that too! And, honestly, it was really a nice little bone for the writers to throw us - yes, there ARE technologically advanced societies around, as one would expect, and no, team Atlantis does NOT actually have to be privy to everything that goes on in the galaxy. I liked that.

And Teyla was definitely lying to Elizabeth; the thought had never even occurred to me that she might not be - it was quite evident in her body language. That was a nice little scene, really - both that they remembered Teyla and Elizabeth's friendship and touched on it, and the interplay going on under the surface.

why, exactly, did they think shooting at replicators with regular bullets would do any good?

Rodney said that they turned off the Replicators' regenerative capabilities (or at least scaled them way down). They wouldn't have been able to heal themselves, at least not quickly - notice that after the escaped scientist (forget his name) got shot, he was still walking around with silver bullet marks on him.

[naye]

My general reaction to the episode as a whole was to think that Big Bang really has spoiled me. Though I did love the team moments (their new Alpha site has flying monkeys!), and them stuck in the jumper, and Ronon letting Rodney sleep as he watched the Replicators, and Rodney breaking a little because it's all his fault, and John just... breaking. So. Lots of little individual pieces I liked a lot, but as a whole it just didn't grab me. I attributed it to a) always being kind of "meh" about the Replicators, and b) having no particular emotional attachment to Elizabeth's character. (Sorry! I really want to like her, but - when she was on the show, I was indifferent about her, and then she left, and she's been completely off my mental map of who is team and family for over a year now.)

Then I read your post, and I wondered if I'd had the same kind of reaction you did - but looking at what other people have commented, I think I agree. It was Elizabeth's plan. What they did was allowing her to place herself in stasis, again. She already spent 10,000 years frozen on Atlantis waiting for them in one life - letting her go now, for the moment, to be frozen in space... Yeah, it sucks, but I don't see it as anything even close to the darkness in "Misbegotten". It's much closer to "Before I Sleep".

Elizabeth herself said that she wasn't sure the other Replicators, or she, could be trusted. I don't really see that Atlantis had a lot of options. If she is Elizabeth Weir,* her priority is to protect Atlantis. Protect her friends. The same as any of them. And after her plan failed - she thought it was safe, she thought she was doing the wrong thing, and her plan killed someone. Possibly someone she knew. So - how could she possibly allow them to risk keeping her in the city?

I think the episode's ending is a very strong, poignant one, when you know that they all know what she's doing for her. I watched the team at the end, and for once - for once they don't stick together, but they all go off on their own. Because there is guilt and sorrow and maybe shame, too. (They literally go as far from each other as possible - Rodney goes up the stairs, Teyla goes into a side corridor and Ronon disappears somewhere else off screen.) They know she sacrificed herself for them. Again. And if I know Rodney and John and the others right, there is no way they're really expecting it to be permanent.

I don't think they could talk about bringing her back - not yet, not when she herself has said that having her in the city would be a bad idea (which I assume she did), and not considering what happened last time they went against her wishes. But I don't think John accepts this as permanent for one second. He wouldn't be John Sheppard if he did - and in my eyes, they all stayed true to themselves all through the episode.

Wow. All this after I thought the episode hadn't made an impression on me...! I guess it did make an impression, and it's one that's getting more positive the more I think about it. It's definitely my least favorite ep of the season so far, but the other four eps have been amazing, and I think a lot of what made me rather indifferent was just personal preference.

Totally randomly, though: is Torren actually offworld with Kanaan now, or did Teyla lie to keep maybe-Elizabeth from getting too much information on her son?

*And, oh, how I wish Torri Higginson could've been in the ep! Seriously. Part of my problem with emotional involvement was that I kept getting distracted from the plot to stare at the actress and try to see Elizabeth in her...

[sholio]

Reading other people's impressions of the episode is really helping with my own negativity towards it, because there's a lot that I hadn't thought about, or had seen differently from other people. And it *did* have its moments, like that beginning scene in the jumper.

Thinking about it, though, I think one of the things I'm *still* having trouble with is how they (the characters, and the writers) draw such a clear line in the sand between "human" and "not-human". Look at how they've treated some similar situations - Carson, for example; he was in enemy hands for years, and they got back a version that was a) not really Carson, and b) demonstrably could be controlled by Michael, and still trusted him, treated him like Carson, and eventually gave him the run of Atlantis. But he's physically human.

And then there's Elizabeth ... and you know, it's not even that I think it was unrealistic or uncategorically bad to do what they did. It was just very different from other cases we've seen where they had to deal with a compromised member of the group. Usually, their focus is on trying to fix the person and get them back, *not* trying to neutralize them so that they're no longer a threat. Throughout the episode, I got a much stronger feeling of "how can we protect ourselves from Elizabeth?" than "how can we save Elizabeth?" And, like I said, it's not even so much that it's unrealistic - I think actually, in this case, I'm having a little trouble reconciling fanon with canon, because there's very persistent fanon that the characters will accept back one of their own who's been turned to the dark side or held prisoner for a long time, and I really *do* think that their suspicion and distrust is more likely than the "Yay! We got so & so back!" that's so prevalent in fanfic (and basically what they did with Carson).

But it does feel like they have set a fairly arbitrary standard of "not a person" and insist on sticking to it regardless of whether the character acts and, apparently, feels like a person. I am not sure why having a machine body is supposed to make a difference in being able to Ascend; the characters acted like it's obvious that, even if you were once a human, being uploaded into a machine body makes you no longer human, no longer able to Ascend, and no longer worthy of any of the rights of a human being. IMHO, since Elizabeth and the other Replicators display all the signs of sentience, whether they are individually trustworthy is something that should be assessed on an individual basis. Whether Elizabeth is still trustworthy and likable as an individual is something separate from her status as a machine.

On the other hand, this may simply be my own, totally subjective morality coming into conflict with the morals of the writers and/or characters -- and it doesn't necessarily mean that they're *wrong*. I mean, if you look at Elizabeth as an enemy combatant, or as a nonhuman, nonsentient entity, their actions weren't problematic in the slightest. (It would be terrible if I was committing an immoral act every time I force-quit my computer!) I think I might be drawing out the "human" line a lot farther than some people would be willing to.


is Torren actually offworld with Kanaan now, or did Teyla lie to keep maybe-Elizabeth from getting too much information on her son?

I assumed she was lying - her body language, the whole way the scene was set up, I really got the impression that she didn't trust Elizabeth enough to give her true information about her son. It definitely read as "lie" to me.


And, oh, how I wish Torri Higginson could've been in the ep! Seriously. Part of my problem with emotional involvement was that I kept getting distracted from the plot to stare at the actress and try to see Elizabeth in her...

You know, that, I actually liked! I mean, not that Torri wasn't in the episode, but the reminder that the Replicator bodies are malleable and there's no logical reason why they have to look like the people we expect them to look like. It was a fairly obvious "Oh no, we can't get the actor, now what?" situation, but I thought the FRAN actress did a good job of being Weir.

[snazana.livejournal.com]

I think that being stuck out there in space is just the thing the replicators need to "let go of their burdens". It's not like they have anything else to do but meditate. The next time we see Elizabeth, she will be all glowy and ascended.

Hi, by the way. I think this is the first time I've commented here.

[sholio]

Hi! :) And you know, you may be right - that would certainly be interesting! *thinks about the possibilities*

[katikat.livejournal.com]

Friend's friends hopping here ;P

I thought that it was an amazing episode and to be honest, I didn't feel really bad for Elizabeth because she did betray them. As John told her, she might have thought of herself as Elizabeth she wasn't Elizabeth anymore. Elizabeth would have never, ever, EVER brought the Replicators to Atlantis behind their back. That was a Replicator's plan, not Elizabeth's. And I think that what John told her made her realize exactly that - that she began to think as a Replicator, the Replicators were now "her people". And the only way back to Elizabeth for her was to sacrifice herself. The team might not have liked it, they obviously didn't, but it really was the only way to eliminate the threat of the Replicators because they all now knew that they couldn't trust them, not even Elizabeth.

[sheron]

I know. I mean, forgetting whether it's Elizabeth or not.. there are replicators floating in space! How well did THAT work out for SG-1?!

*sigh*

[gnine.livejournal.com]

See, a lot of people are saying it was "Elizabeth's" plan, a camp of which I'm totally a part of, but the thing that gets me is it wasn't just the final bit that was her plan, it was ALL OF IT.

I didn't see the 'Lanteans as really making ANY choice. *She* brought the replicators, and all the dangers associated with them, to Atlantis, she made the proposal, which she apparently couldn't manage to enforce with her people, even though they had agreed, and she was the one that offered up a final solution, despite the fact that Woolsey said, even with ALL the betrayals she'd already done to THEM, that they were willing to give her and the Replicators another chance. And then *she* decided, "nope, giving us/them another chance wasn't the right thing to do". All the Lanteans did was sit back and try to SURVIVE.

And debate if they should trust her. Cause, seriously, dude, she was not acting like Elizabeth, right from the beginning. Because she WILLINGLY brought danger to Atlantis. Back in Adrift, she's mad they reactivated her nanites cause of the slight, SLIGHT risk to Atlantis. She didn't believe her life was worth that risk. And now she's saying just a 'ghost' of her former self is worth a more known risk. (She says they've experienced interfacing problems before with tech at the beginning, she *knew* just *contacting* them posed a threat, let alone how much her compatriots could or couldn't be trusted). Would the real Elizabeth *ever* decide those were reasonable risks?

Back in Miller's Crossing, both writers and a lot of fans said Wallace basically sealed his final fate the moment he injected Jeannie with the nanites. He crossed a line. I think "Elizabeth" chose her fate, the moment she decided to risk Atlantis and everyone on it just in hopes of a possible personal gain for herself and a small group of questionably hostile individuals. They were surviving, not a very happy existence, perhaps, but they weren't actually dying, from what we could tell. And it's not like someone took away their first bodies. They CHOSE that state, chose to take that risk, and OOPS, it went wrong. So to right their mistake, it's okay to risk all of Atlantis? And *Elizabeth* thought this justified risking Atlantis? As much as I wasn't a big fan of Elizabeth, I can't see the real her EVER making that decision.

...err, apologies if I came on a bit strong.

On a completely separate note, the team moments made me go SQUEE! If nothing else, this season has been the WIN when it comes to team cuteness! ^_^

[sholio]

Back in Miller's Crossing, both writers and a lot of fans said Wallace basically sealed his final fate the moment he injected Jeannie with the nanites. He crossed a line.

I wasn't one of those people, though. I found John's actions in that episode extremely morally questionable. Not that I couldn't see why he did what he did -- but, IMHO, what John did was only one step removed from what Wallace did earlier in the episode. It wasn't as bad, but his hands were certainly not clean.

Not that I'm arguing with you about Elizabeth, necessarily. She did risk Atlantis, and the lives of her former friends -- like I said in my comments on the episode, even if it is Elizabeth, she's definitely not playing with a full deck. And it does make a difference, a very vital difference, if she was tricked to what is basically her death, or if she went willingly. After a rewatch, I'm kind of torn -- I can definitely see the possibility that the final scene in Woolsey's office is leading up to Elizabeth presenting the Replicator-freezing plan, but I'm not entirely sure that the final scene of the episode plays out in keeping with that. (Also, if it was *Elizabeth's* idea, then what she did isn't necessarily any better! Either she was tricked into freezing herself by her former friends, or she betrayed her adopted people who trusted her.)

The episode is certainly getting me to think, though, and that's never a bad thing.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

As others have said, I thought it was Elizabeth's idea. She says that it was wrong of Rodney to save her life with nanites, and so she wanted to set things right, which to me implied that she thought the only solution was to kill herself.

That said, I agree that I really don't like the whole "only good Replicator is a dead Replicator" mentality, and the way they didn't believe Replicators could Ascend because they were machines.

My main problem with this episode is that it felt like a giant fuck you to Torri Higginson. They wrote her off the show against her will and then wanted her to be at their beck and call to do episodes whenever they felt like it, and when she said no, then they went and did an episode about her character deliberately not using her. As much as I wanted some closure on Elizabeth, this felt very childish and tantrum-y to me. (One of those times I wished I didn't know any behind-the-scenes stuff, as it really ruined what would have in many ways been a very enjoyable episode.)

[sholio]

Yeah, I wasn't happy with what I felt was a deliberate attempt to remove Torri, and her character, in a very unsatisfying way. I agree with you that I might have liked the episode better if I hadn't known there was bad blood behind-the-scenes between the actress and the show-runners; knowing that, however, this felt like a slap in the face to Torri, to the character and her fans. Elizabeth was not a favorite of mine, but I can't help feeling that her fans got screwed over by a backstage feud.

[darkrosetiger.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen it yet. I'm not sure if I will, because as Grace said, it sounds like it's a big "fuck you" to Torri. The way they treated her was horrible and incredibly unprofessional--when an actor says, "just tell me if I'm in for next season or not," you don't lie to her--and for them to expect her to come back as a "recurring character" and them get pissed when she says no...it's all of their skanky gender issues in a nice little package.

[derry667.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I think I watched this episode with a certain emotional detachment. I'm relatively unspoiled but it seemed obvious to me that the episode had originally been envisaged (if not actually written out) with the idea of Torri Higginson reprising her role as Elizabeth, but that deal obviously fell through. And I actually found myself watching the actress who played Fran essentially trying to mimic "the essence" of Weir - and I actually thought she did a good job.

The only other impression that I walked away with was essentially YAY WOOLSEY! I love what they're doing with his character. He's not perfect, but he's honestly doing what he thinks is best. And occassionally he has moments where he really shines - and he had a few in this. I love the way people seem to misjudge him. They've put him a box marked "bureaucrat" and he seems to surprise them more often than not - and without betraying what's always been essential to his character. So yeah, yay Woolsey!

But one thing that I seem to have a different impression from yours is that I thought that the idea to deceive and "destroy" the Replicators came from Elizabeth. I don't think it was actually stated, but there seemed to be an "I have a plan" thing from her in the meeting where they discuss it and then she leads the Reps through to their "doom". I got the impression that she was fully on board or might even have been the instigator - and maybe from John's reaction he wanted her to go last so that they could say goodbye without the other Reps - or maybe even try once again to talk her out of it.

The "so no doubt it was Elizabeth" comment only really made sense to me if they knew that she fully knew what was going on, not if they were only guessing that she guessed.

but I just felt icked at the end, both by the "only good Replicator is a dead Replicator" mentality

I dunno about it being a judgement of how "good" they are. More a question of how unbelievably dangerous they are. The way they reproduce and can create a high powered civilisation from scratch in a very short time - and how most of them have (in the past) had conquest of the destruction of humanity as their main agenda. The Atlanteans are scared of the return of the Reps because even when they've met those with good intentions things have gone catastrophically bad in the end. Kill them before they kill you isn't exactly taking the moral high ground, but it is basic military pragmatism IMHO.

Oh, and are the Reps truly dead anyway? I watched the eps with some friends (yokiem and starrylizard and the first thing the three of us did was turn to each other and say "But why would being is space kill them? Isn't that how whats-his-mane survived way back when?" It still seems to me that Elizabeth (or one of the others) could be picked up by a passing spaceship. Did they do it deliberately to set up a possible return?