Furies of Calderon

[sholio]

I finished Jim Butcher's Furies of Calderon and ... feel like griping about it.

Because, seriously, Butcher, you can do better than this! By the final third of the book, I'd gotten to the point where I was just skimming -- still kinda holding out hope that things might take a turn for the better, but ... not really engaged with it at all.

It was just so generic -- basically one of those EveryFantasy books, taking place in the standard pseudo-medieval-Europe (only, as usual, missing most of the things that make the real medieval Europe dramatically interesting, like disease and economic oppression and horrendous racial/religious injustice). The really frustrating thing is that it could have been much better -- the magic system, with its Shinto-ish idea of spirits living in mountains and rivers, is really neat and unusual, and obviously he'd put quite a bit of time into developing the world, but what came out was sort of a cookie-cutter sanitized pseudo-Europe with a cookie-cutter plot centering around your basic cookie-cutter good-hearted farmboy. And then the plot turned out to be a sprawling mess with way too little organization and too many characters. (And I speak as someone who loves complicated plots! But this was just ... too many characters to really care about anybody, too many scene-switches to get into one set of events before we'd jump to another one.)

But the worst part was the racial/sexual stuff -- and, again, I know he can do better; there are occasional things that bug me along those lines in the Dresden Files books (like his tendency to keep reminding us over and over of the characters' ethnicity if they're not white), but never anywhere near like this. I just don't know where to begin with what a fundamentally bad idea the Marat were, in pretty much every way, and the awfulness of the casual way that words like "savage" and "horde" and "cannibal" were tossed around in the book -- especially when so many aspects of Marat culture were rather blatantly patterned on Native American and African cultures. The final twist of the knife was that little bit of Aleran history that we got near the end, that the Alerans had come here from elsewhere and basically driven out or subdued all the indigenous cultures, which basically just hammers home the (accidental?) Alerans=Europeans metaphor and makes the portrayal of the Marat as savage invaders (or, at the end, naive innocents confused by the trappings of "modern" Aleran culture) even more disturbing.

On the gender side -- like I've mentioned before, I'm not especially sensitive to gender issues in general, and especially in fantasy or historical fiction, I'm very tolerant of women's social roles, status in society, and the language used by the other characters to describe them being very different from what would be acceptable in the modern world. Having said that, the slave-collar/rape scene sent my ick-o-meter right off the scale, especially combined a few other, little ick-inducing things, like the way that sadistic Odiana was always referred to as a "water witch" (in the narrative as well as by the other characters) while good-guy Isana, with the exact same powers, was always called a watercrafter. I'm not saying "Jim Butcher is a raging mysogynist!" because, well, he obviously isn't; he's always had good, well-rounded female characters in all of his books, including this one. Which makes it all the more bizarre that the book would suddenly come out of nowhere with a very squick-inducing scene of forced servitude and rape. It's not that you can't ever deal with those topics in a book, of course -- it's just, there are some treatments of that sort of scene that really emphasize how awful it would be for the victim, and some that sort of give you the idea the author's playing out a fantasy. This was ... more the latter, unfortunately.

On the surface, Isana getting to become a steadholder at the end seems to be a "yay, girl power!" moment -- but, uh, actually it's not, because I was just totally weirded out by how little resistance there was to the idea. The first female steadholder ever? And it's so casual, and nobody objects? See, I could totally see her assuming the role informally, with Bernard remaining the titular head of household while Isana takes on most of the actual power and duties, but ... formally codifying it like that just felt wrong -- it felt wrong for their society as it had been presented up to that point, it felt totally wrong for the way that rural people act and the way that gender prejudice and established gender roles work in a medieval-ish society. It's just one step removed from the king waving a hand and declaring "There shall be no gender prejudice throughout my land!" and lo, because he said it was so, then it shall be so ... and I know that's a really silly example, but that's exactly how it felt in the book.

... okay. Enough griping. At this point, I think I'd have to be really hard-up for reading material to even think about buying another book in the series. It's a good thing that I read the Dresden Files books first, because this wouldn't have left me with a particularly good opinion of Butcher as a writer. (But the new Dresden book comes out on April 1! I shall console myself with that.)

EDIT: Oh, hey, I forgot to mention another thing that drove me crazy about the book, and that's the way that (apparently) major events would happen and then have no consequences for the plot or characters. For example, Bernard coming back from the dead! I was expecting major fallout from that, like he ends up undead or something, especially since they'd made a big deal about what a terrible risk it was -- but Isana sleeps for awhile, and everyone's fine and it's never mentioned again. Or everything that happened with Isana and Odiana, and everything we found out about Odiana's past -- at the end of it, she goes back to Aldrick and, after acting like a halfway normal human being while she was with Isana, as soon as she gets back with her old circle of friends she's back to being a giggly sadist ... everything that happened with the slave collar and the connection she appeared to be forming to Isana is just thrown out the window; it didn't change her at all. AAAAAARGH.

Comments

[ex-nonniemou154.livejournal.com]

Meh. All the reasons I avoid standard fantasy. I was afraid of these books when I saw them, and I'm glad, now. Someone take this world away from him and make him write more Dresden Files.

[sholio]

I know! After slogging through that, I'm kind of depressed that he's written three more of these when he could have been working on the further adventures of Harry & Murphy & co.

[lavvyan.livejournal.com]

Shinto-ish idea of spirits living in mountains and rivers

But! There were loads of spirits living in mountains and rivers in old European tales! I've got a book with stories just from medieval (sp?) Germany, which you could easily use to bash someone's head in. ;)

[sholio]

Hmm ... excellent point. Maybe it's just that the way it's executed in the book feels more Eastern than Western to me, because my brain immediately went to Japanese folktales when I was reading the book. I think most cultures have stories of nature spirits and/or nonhuman people who occupy various places or objects, but aside from Greek dryads and such, that particular aspect of European folk culture doesn't make it into mainstream fantasy very much.

[madripoor-rose.livejournal.com]

Nods. I gave the fantasy series a try and couldn't make it beyond the first chapter. I liked the Dresden Files TV series a lot better than the books, too. Butcher wrote a Spider-man tie-in, The Darkest Hours, that I really liked though.

It's a pity that more authors don't seem to realize the cliches of their genres and do something about them. I was thinking about our Atlantis discussion the other day, while rereading the three books Rosemary Edghill completed in the Twelve Treasures series. (Sword of Maiden's Tears, Cup Of Morning Shadows, Cloak Of Night And Daggers.) Phillip going off to Faeryland to overthrow the elves because humans are little better than slaves there.

[sholio]

I actually really like the Dresden Files books, better than the show, but maybe that's just because I read them first.

It frustrates me that authors so often don't seem to be able to write beyond the limits of their genre -- and it frustrates me further that obviously, these books *sell*, so publishers are just going to keep churning out the same hackneyed "farmboy saves world" plots.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

naye read some/all of these and was suitable unimpressed, such that I had little interest in trying them myself (...not that I had much interest anyway, epic fantasy's rarely my thing unless everyone around me is reading it, and besides when I finally drag myself away from the unending font that is SGA fanfic I've got Locke Lamora waiting for me!)

The talk of fantasy and 'girl power' though, makes me wonder - have you watched Juuni Kokki/12 Kingdoms? I was into it a couple years ago and can't recall if you were along for the ride or not. Even if you're not in an anime mood at the moment, it's worth trying, because it doesn't feel much like anime, and does feel a lot like amazing epic fantasy (fittingly, as it's based on a series of Japanese novels, which I believe are being translated now - need to check on that.) Among other things the female chars, especially the main heroine, are simply amazing. Yoko starts out as this pretty weak, unlikeable character, who evolves into this incredible figure (superficially, 12K is the 'schoolgirl is transported to fantasy world where she's destined to be queen!' except it's that trope done with believable human beings, and an intensely real and *different* world, and it's just. Yeah.) Really, really worth checking out. Rats, now I wanna watch it again!

[sholio]

I haven't seen it, no, but I'll look for it the next time I need something new to watch (though, right now, my plate is full-up with new goodies -- once we're done with NCIS, there's Numb3rs and a few more things waiting for me).

Unfortunately, I DO like epic fantasy -- in fact, I love it -- but 95% of the time I hate the way it's done! So I'm left sadly moping around trying to hunt down fantasy that doesn't suck.

[leenys.livejournal.com]

I tell you, working in a bookstore and the scifi/fan section being one of the areas I'm responsible for stocking...it's all the same thing. There is an original idea that pops out on occasion, then it's consumed by authors that want to jump on the band wagon. Case in point...look at all the demon-fighter books that are out now. Most of those have been published within the last year, one after another, bangbangbang! Rob Thurman has a more unique track, but I can't help thinking "Supernatural" when I read those books (though time wise this is a mere coincidence and not a copy-issue, especially as SPN started out more as an urban-myth type show, which they've strayed a bit from). I have to wonder if Mercedes Lackey has any more originality in her work, I haven't even bothered to check because the covers all look the same. And that's another thing, the covers either have the standard art work, or it's dark with people dressed in leather. Two genres.

Course then you have David Weber, which shows more promise for some originality. The classics like Asimov and Clarke still stand. And there is an Oroti (sp)series that looks compelling. But mostly? I've gone over to non-fiction.

Tried getting into the Dresden Files books, and I think if I read those without seeing the series I'd of had better luck. Because I didn't like Dresden in the show, and I think that was mainly due to the actor. I liked Bob, but he's not "semi material" in the book, only a voice, so no use for it. This is the one case where the show ruined the books for me. Feel free to convince me otherwise because there's a big promo on them right now and I keep staring. And the new series? Haven't bothered with it, seeing as how I can't get into Dresden, and now I'm even more leery.

[melibabe.livejournal.com]

The first few books are good but definitely feel like early works. As the series progressed, however, he started bringing more depth into them, to the point where they were actually very good. Perhaps start with a later one, then work back if you like it?

[sholio]

I second the suggestion to start with a later book, see if you like it and, if so, go back and start at the beginning. Book 3 was where I started and I really liked it -- it's fast-paced with lots of h/c.

Isn't David Weber the one who does the Honor Harrington books? Does he also do fantasy? Or am I thinking of something else.

Urban fantasy does seem to be the big thing right now, spinning off the success of Buffy and SPN. I've read a few that were really fun, but it seems like the more of it there is, the more it falls into a handful of Ann Rice or Buffy-inspired cliches.

[parisindy.livejournal.com]

i can't say i'm like the fantasy one as well

i love the dresden files though

[susnn.livejournal.com]

You nailed my biggest problem with the books. No sooner did Tavi come on the scene than I knew where the series was headed. Not that, in itself, that's enough to toss a series or book into the nyet pile. Sometimes it can be very interesting to see what a good writer can do with the old tropes. The Calderon series does have some good scenes and decent characters, although I think the bad guys are more interesting in many cases. What I did like about the Marats is that they came across as amused by the attitudes of the Alerans; they certainly, at least as I read them, did not exhibit any sense of inferiority to the Alerans. Yes, there were aspects of Aleran culture that they did not get, but I got the feeling that for the Marats the same was true of the Alerans about the Marat culture. I have the latest book but I've had it for three weeks, and even had it when I was spending nights at the hospital with my mother, and still haven't cracked the cover. So, not a must read series for me. Then again, I never finished off the Deryni series by Katherine Kurtz either, and when it first came out I always got the books as soon as they were published.

Hmmm.... you know, I begin to wonder now if the reason I stuck with the Deryni series as long as I did was because my sisters and friends were all agog about them and there was much rejoicing and discussing each time one appeared. Makes me wonder about how much fandom props up otherwise eh series.

[sholio]

I wish he'd write more Dresden novels and leave the fantasy alone...

[melibabe.livejournal.com]

I read this a few months ago and also found it difficult to finish (with some skimming ahead as well). I started the next book but quit about a quarter (?) of the way through. I agree that it definitely felt very cliche and formula in most places, which was very disappointing to me.

I recently started Dan Simmons' Hyperion novels, and have the same sense of "there's a good story somewhere in here, but the structure and pacing are making it really hard for me to care." Some of it (particularly the "detective's story" chunk) actually made my teeth ache, it was so very very boilerplate. I can't figure out how these won so many awards....

[sholio]

I actually really loved the Hyperion novels, but I also read them when I was 14 and much less sensitive to dramatic nuance. The only one of Simmons' novels I tried to read as an adult (Hollow Man) was so awful I could barely finish it.

[naye]

*laughs*

Oh, man. I'm not laughing at your miserable reading experience, really, I'm not, but - you sound exactly like I did when I finished it!! Or like I wanted to sound, since you're way more eloquent here than I was.

I'm sorry you didn't like it. I wanted to, but - gahhhhhh. I even read the second book! Which I really, really wanted to like, and I even tried to make a list of everything I liked about it, and... it's a rather forced list. With some major points that get canceled out in one of the sequels. (Spoiler! I've heard that OF COURSE Tavi has the most kick-ass furies EVER once he finally manifests them. Oh, and he's also-- Um. I probably shouldn't spoil TOO much, but lemme know if you want to know?).

My reactions to the Codex Alera: book 1, book 2 (there are a couple of spoilers there, but it's a pretty brief summary of what I liked/disliked rather than a thorough review/rant).

I'm like you, I'm just so disappointed! Come on Butcher, you can do SO MUCH better! Your storytelling shouldn't lose its mojo just because you switch from a 1st person POV to a 3rd! Really! You could make high fantasy as interesting as you've made urban fantasy, you know how. Agh. I wouldn't have given a rat's tail if Generic Fantasy Writer #9716 churned out this kind of crap, but with Butcher... it really gets to me!! Though it does make me feel better to hear that very obviously it's not just me. If you're seeing them too, the issues I noticed were really there - the boringness, and the issues...! Uuugh. Yes, the slave-collar scene and Odiana's history... *shudder* Ick. And the Marat. Ick, ick, ick. >_<

The Marat have become total Magical Ninja guys by book two. They have even MORE pseudo-Native American spiritualism, as well as l33t ninja skillz. And I think - hope? - that it is because there's a point to be made somewhere about how the Alerans are actually the bad guys in the big picture, conquering other people and taking over a continent that wasn't theirs, but. But it's done in a way that will throw me into fits of rage if I think about it, so I won't. I really won't. I'll stop... now.

*breathes*

Okay. Better now. A little better.

One thing in Butcher's favor is that the second book is pretty much all about the political ramifications of making Isana the first female Steadholder! So... yeah, I don't know if it was planned that way from the beginning, but apparently it's just such a huge subject that he couldn't deal with in the first book.

Um. Yeah. I-I don't think I should've read the second book, but I'd already bought it, and now I get all frustrated and annoyed when I think about them, and there are another two books out there, and I keep hoping that maybe those will be good, but - finishing the first two were such a chore (in each case - I ended up skimming the last third of BOTH of them), I really don't think I'll give them a chance. Ever. Which makes me sad, because - it's Jim Butcher!

...thank you for giving me a chance to vent a little. ^^;;;

[sholio]

LOL! I knew there was someone on my friends list who was reading those books, but I'd been avoiding posts discussing them because I didn't want to be spoiled. Not worried about being spoiled anymore, because I really don't care, and your spoiler makes me go AAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHHH because I was afraid something like that was going to happen ...!

It's really nice to know it's not just me, either. I always wonder, on these sorts of things, if I'm being hypersensitive or something, and it's a relief that it does seem like it's the books and not me. Or ... at least I'm not the only one!

I wouldn't have given a rat's tail if Generic Fantasy Writer #9716 churned out this kind of crap, but with Butcher... it really gets to me!!

Yeah, precisely! I mean, I *know* that fantasy novels of this type are a dime a dozen (which obviously means that people must be reading them, I suppose) and that's why I'm really picky about the fantasy I read. It's not very pleasant to expect something better and then end up with this sort of tripe. And I think I'd be a lot more willing to forgive its generic-ness if it wasn't so ... well ... offensive in other areas. It's just intensely frustrating to pick up a fresh new fantasy novel in 2008 and encounter hordes of invading cannibals, know what I mean? I mean, you'd think we'd be getting past that sort of thing, but obviously not, and it's especially frustrating coming from a writer that I like!

And I think - hope? - that it is because there's a point to be made somewhere about how the Alerans are actually the bad guys in the big picture, conquering other people and taking over a continent that wasn't theirs, but. But it's done in a way that will throw me into fits of rage if I think about it...

Yeah, me too! I did actually wonder, towards the end of the book, if he was trying to make some kind of point about how the Marat aren't really such unwashed primitives as the Alerans see them, and how the Alerans were in the wrong for coming and taking their land away ... but if he's trying to do that, he's making a terrible mess of it!

I do appreciate that he *tries* to deal with some of this stuff, and I'm happy that Isana's promotion to steadholder gets dealt with ... but, man, I just don't have any desire to read any further, especially after reading your post on the second book ...!

[susnn.livejournal.com]

If I remember rightly, Butcher actually commented somewhere - might even have been in an author's after word or foreword - that the Calderon series, not the Dresden Files, were the books closest to his heart. That he was pleased with the success of the Dresden series because it caused the publishers to take a second look at his fantasy series and publish it. It might be that they really were right the first time.

[sholio]

... oh dear. Maybe, to be fair, he's simply struggling with a very different sort of story than the kind he's gotten used to telling. One of these days I'll do a long post about my first foray into fantasy and all the mistakes I made -- many of which I think are problems in this book (too many characters, overly ambitious ideas for my ability to pull them off, etc).

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I couldn't get too far into the first book because - as you said - it was so dang generic. I will admit, I do like Tolkein-like sword-and-sorcery, but the feel - magic and mayhem - not a story that's nothing more than a rip-off with elves, men and dwarves (the only exception is DragonLance, because, of course, dragons!)

The main character of this series didn't grab me, and though I was only a few chapters in, I didn't like that there were so many characters thus far, and that it took forever to introduce me to the main character (I hate it when books do that. But, I will also admit to being impatient.)

I don't think I've read a really kick-butt Sword and Sorcery fantasy since Barbara Hambly's Dragon's Bane and the books that follow, and A Wizard of Earth Sea. And I'm uber wary about getting into any new series as as I've wasted a lot of money on books that were so not worth it.

[sholio]

The fantasy genre as a whole is terribly frustrating for me, because I adore fantasy -- the world-building, fantastic wonder of it. But the vast majority of fantasy takes all that promise and squanders it on cliched, trite plots, flat characters, and a really frustrating sort of cultural blindness that was especially frustrating in this book.

Have you ever read Diana Wynne Jones? She's one of the few fantasy writers that I (almost) consistently love -- I'm always thrilled when she comes out with a new book.

[sholio]

p.s. what is that icon from? I keep meaning to ask -- it looks like it's from a book cover or something, but I can't really tell.

Frustration in book-land

[ellex42.livejournal.com]

*hugs you* I know what you mean. I read 'Furies of Calderon', and did enjoy it, but also felt it wasn't up to Butcher's usual excellent standard with the Dresden Files books. The second Calderon book was better, but...yeah, still has issues, mainly with the "wow, I can see where this is going a mile off". Apparently Butcher has always wanted to write high fantasy, and devoured all the classic fantasy novels as a kid. I think there comes a point, for some people, where they are so over-saturated with the best of a genre that they can't manage anything very original when they sit down to write in that genre for themselves.

Buck up, there's another Dresden book coming out in a couple of months.

If you're looking for something good...Robin McKinley has a new book out, "Dragonhaven". Not everyone can take her relentless exposition, but this one is written in first person POV, so it's a bit less dense than her other novels.

Rob Thurman's books really are great - a very different take on the urban fantasy genre.

I see you're a Diana Wynne Jones fan - her new Chrestomanci book, "The Pinhoe Egg", is delightful.

Personally, in the high fantasy genre, the only really original and excellent books I've read in the past year were "The Lies of Locke Lamora" (I'm waiting impatiently for my turn at a library copy of the sequel) and Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, which never disappoints.

I wonder if you've read anything by Lynn Flewelling? The trilogy that starts with "The Bone Doll's Twin" is great. Her "Nightrunner Series" is also excellent, although it's (surprisingly, for published novels) slash. There's very little explicit in it, though, so I'd recommend it for anyone who is willing to read a really good story even when slash isn't generally their cup of tea.

Published novels have been, by and large, so excruciatingly poor in the last few years (I blame the publishing companies. Some of these books have clearly never been past an editor), and there's so much great fanfiction out there, that I'm seriously thinking about getting myself some kind of PDA and putting lots of fanfiction on it. The only time I really get to read is on the bus to and from work, and during lunch at work, so something smaller and more portable than great heavy hardback novels would certainly be nice...

Re: Frustration in book-land

[sholio]

Not a Rob Thurman fan, alas. I gave her first book a try, but it's not my cup of tea. Robin McKinley I've heard good things about, and I spotted one of her books at the used book store with a "Our Staff Recommends!" sticker on it, so I picked it up and added it to the "to read" pile.

And I'd forgotten there was a new Chrestomanci book out! I'll have to get that.

I have read Lynn Flewelling's first Nightrunner book, but I remember being disappointed in it -- I felt like it had all the trappings of what I normally like (the reluctant but growing closeness between the main characters, etc), but it just felt forced, and I hated the history infodumps that we kept getting; it didn't make me want to pick up the next book. I know some people who like the series, though, so maybe I'll give it another chance.

although it's (surprisingly, for published novels) slash. There's very little explicit in it, though, so I'd recommend it for anyone who is willing to read a really good story even when slash isn't generally their cup of tea.

That's an interesting use of the terminology. I'd always considered "slash" to refer only to fanfic where the relationship is not present in the original. I'm not much of a slash fan in general, except with certain pairings, but I love encountering LGBT characters in mainstream fiction, especially genre fiction, and feel as if there aren't nearly enough of them! I'd forgotten about that aspect of "Nightrunner", actually, or maybe it was just so subtle that I didn't pick up on it at all.