sholio | SGA: Kindred pt 2...

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episode reactions:sga

SGA: Kindred pt 2...

Um. Not so happy here. About one specific thing in the episode, at least.

Okay, so remember how my huge DO NOT WANT for this season was that I did not want a monster baby for Teyla?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Okay, now that I've got that out of my system...

I totally called the Carson thing! (Edit: Actually,

naye called that one, pretty much. I'd been thinking along the same lines, but she's the one who really laid the theory out in the open, so she ought to have credit.) Except I didn't expect the degeneration. Overall, I was happy that we got a lot of Rodney/Carson interaction -- I also liked the Carson/Keller bits and I loved Ronon's overall awkwardness with the whole situation, right up to the hug at the end, and the sad way he laid his head down on Carson's shoulder? That was pretty much my dose of "awwwwwww" for the episode. Awwwwww!

But aside from that little scene at the beginning where they're outside the isolation room, we really didn't get any reaction scenes with the others discussing and digesting the whole situation, and that left the whole thing feeling kind of flat to me. I think in particular what I wanted was *something* with Rodney getting support from his team, or Sheppard, or even Carter, who's done the whole "He's dead! Oh wait! He's back!" thing too many times to count. Presumably, there would have been scenes like that during the slow times in the middle of the episode -- while Carson and Keller are working at the microscopes, for example. But I wanted to see~! There was lots of stuff with Carson, which was nice, but I didn't really get the sort of emotional impact and teaminess that I wanted from the episode. Maybe I just wanted too much ...?

I did appreciate the fact that Rodney, at least, recognized that a Carson clone with all Carson's memories *is* Carson, for all intents and purposes, which is something that they didn't seem willing to acknowledge with the RepliTeam. I liked Rodney's protectiveness, even to the point of pushing Carson out of the way of bullets and covering him in the field. And ohhh, I hurt for Rodney, having to vicariously relive the deaths of Elizabeth and Original!Carson ... and then losing him AGAIN. And Sheppard, losing Teyla, maybe permanently. I think they (and Ronon ... that sad little hug still breaks me) need to go get really drunk together now.

And they got the Athosians back! Well, most of them! (Er, aside from the dead ones and the really *important* one, of course.) That was pretty neat. Once they get back Teyla AND HER BABY, she'll have somewhere to go.

In conclusion, I'm utterly unspoiled for the season finale and hoping to stay that way (haven't even watched the previews, don't have a clue what to expect other than the title) ... and then we'll be done with the season!

EDIT: Okay, now that I've had time to think and digest the episode a little bit, I'm feeling a lot better about most of what bugged me, emotionally. I think the problem *was* that I had certain sorts of scenes I wanted to see, and we didn't see them, and I was irked by that. But I did like what we got! (Well, except for the Teyla thing. NOT GOING THERE.)

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OMG I didn't know that! I just went back to watch it, and I managed to stop it jus as the small kid and JF look right at each other!! *awww*

I *LOVE* the Michael character

Oh, seconded! I love the arc they've had him going through, as well. In venegance he was out to destroy his enemies, and now he's literally making his "friends"...

everyone seems to have completely forgotten the rather important issue from Part I of the nasty Hoffan virus Mark II being used to randomly infect worlds and kill rather a lot of innocent folks in the process. What with dat?!!

Wow, how could they have totally ignored that?

OTOH, one more subplot and the episode would have imploded.

- Helen

I agree I would like to see John and Ronon taking Rodney out (however you define that in a place like Atlantis) and all three of them getting throughly smashed.

One of the main things about this episode I liked was it shows how far Rodney McKay as come as a character. The man in this episode wouldn't have needed to be told how important Teal'c was to Sam and the rest of the SGC. Now he still may have thought that there was no way Teal'c could still be alive (he is still tends to the worst case scenario much of the time) but he would have been a bit nicer about it.

I have mixed reaction to Sam. As you said, she has seen so much in her life at the SGC she should know that just about anything was possible, but on the other hand someone needed to stay objective and play devil's advocate. Normally that person is Rodney. But this time Rodney was to close to the situation to be objective. To understand that Carson2 could very well be a threat. And it turns out that she was right to be wary...this Carson does have a weakness. He can be controlled by Micheal at times. And I think the two years of being a prisoner have left their mark as well. So while in many ways he is the same as the Carson we lost in Sunday, in many ways he is not. This not to say that he any less worthy then the original, just that he is different and is his own person.

I also loved how protective Rodney was of Carson2. And the scene where Rodney was telling Carson2 about what happened, that they didn't even know he was missing (which he really wasn't) and that Carson then died...you could see that Rodney is still struggling with that. Which I think was why he latched on to this Carson2 so quickly. He thought he could get his friend back. And in some ways he was, and in some he wasn't.

While I would have liked if Rodney had some more support from his team, I could understand why he didn't. I don't think it was that John and Ronon didn't care - the scene at the end shows they did. I think it was more they were trying not care - because they didn't want to get hurt. Ronon says as much at the end. John too was doing his "if I don't show I care, it won't hurt as much when things go bad" mentality. He did defend Carson2 to Sam more the once. So his keeping Carson2 at arm's length to me was more about not wanting to get hurt then not trusting Carson2 or not caring.

Edited 2008-03-02 17:32 (UTC)

I think it was when Teyla kept pointing out how far Micheal had come in his research in such a sort time. The idea being that he could have had some help from someone who knew a great deal genetics....

Cynical or not, I think you have the right idea Derry. Babies in particular are difficult thing to deal with on set...Or at least they can be in the US. I am not sure what the laws in Vancouver are, but I am sure they are similar to the US in the amount of time a child can work on set.

Now I am not sure they are going to go as far as Micheal stealing the child...I think that is a bit risky and dark and if we were talking about say Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica I would say that is a very real possibility. But this Stargate Atlantis. I think it going to Kanan who will be the one that Teyla is going to search for. I think now they have found the Athosians Teyla might be more willing to go back to work as it were. She no longer has to fear that her child will be the last of his people and if she is dead there will be no one to tell him what a proud and honored people they were. I wonder if they will have the Athosians back in the city and they will the ones to care for the child while Teyla is at work.

On your other point...I think that some may have thought that once they brought back Carson they would chuck Keller away. And as much as I like Paul, I am glad they didn't go that route. They did that back in SG-1 when they brought back Daniel and then got rid of Jonas and I really did not want to see that again.

I was also glad to see Halling return. I thought they had forgotten about him. And yes, the actor also plays Todd, Christopher Heyerdah. I am sure he was glad to work on the show without having to do all the make-up. I hope we see more of Halling in Season Five - and it is possible. I was scanning the interview with the actor on Gateworld and it seems at least one of the reason we saw less on Halling was that Heyerdah was working else where. So if Heyerdah is working for the show as Todd, he should be available for Halling.

And I love Micheal as well. Atlantis' very own Frankenstein's monster.

LOL, yeah, me too! :D By the way, have you ever read Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books? The ones I'm thinking of in particular are "Brothers in Arms" and "Mirror Dance" -- the bad guys concoct a complicated plot to kill the main character and replace him with his clone, abuse the clone horribly in the process of making him physically identical to the original (breaking his bones where the main character broke his, etc) and wind up with someone who is not only NOT identical to the original, but is suffering from severe PTSD and struggling to develop his own identity when he's always been told he's someone else.

Heh. My sister is a lab tech in a genetics lab, and the science in SGA drives her nuts! She definitely had problems with this one.

Ohhhh .... I thought the 'hint' they'd been referring to was the scene where Carson is kidnapped in Misbegotten.

Heh. Yes. I loved that bit! :D

*wince* You know, the funny thing is, I was so absorbed in the Carson and Teyla stuff that I didn't even THINK of that!

There were a number of things that weren't explained in this episode, actually, such as why Michael had all those humans helping him. It seems like he would have a terrible time hiring mercenaries because of his appearance, but would Wraith worshippers follow a half-Wraith? Very curious.

>>Okay, so remember how my huge DO NOT WANT for this season was that I did not want a monster baby for Teyla?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.<<<

Hey, heads up. *g* So far the baby hasn't arrived and having the little bit of Wraith-DNA from both of his parents doesn't necessarily mean "monster-baby". After all, it's unlikely that Teyla's son is the very first Athosian who inherits it from both sides and *if* two "gifted" Athosians having a child would equal "monster-baby" as a result, the Athosians would surely know about this by now.

It just means the boy is important for Michael and his intentions and so far, all we have is Michael's intention to use the little boy for his own purposes. Doesn't mean it will actually happen this way. :-)

So, objectively all we have up to now is a little boy who still has to be borne and who will most likely have what the Athosians call "the gift" since both of his parents have it too. So far - no monster in sight.

There... feel better? *g*

I really liked the scene in the locker room where John compared the situation to the one with Elizabeth and through the whole episode you could see that he wanted to trust this Carson, despite Sam's reasonable suggestions to be careful. I got the impression that he knew that objectively he shouldn't trust Carson - or even the whole situation (in a "too good to be true"-sense) - so easily but actually *wanted* to trust him without being blind to possible dangers.

>>It just means the boy is important for Michael and his intentions and so far, all we have is Michael's intention to use the little boy for his own purposes. Doesn't mean it will actually happen this way. :-)<<

Which means, this is *not* a spoiler since I don't *know* what will happen. All I wanted to say is, that it's possible that Michael's plans will not pan out as he hopes.

I know, bad style to comment on my own comment but since editing the original comment doesn't work for me I though this would be better than let you think you were again spoiled against you will.

I'm getting the idea that a lot of people interpreted the scene with Michael and Teyla and the syringe differently than I did -- I thought that he was injecting her with the serum to turn her baby into one of his bug creations. I can't really think what else it could have been, since it obviously wasn't a tranquilizer or anything aimed at controlling her. So as I see it, at this point we have Teyla carrying a hybrid Wraith-human baby with its Wraithy qualities amplified -- it should come out looking pretty similar to how Kanan looks now, and being under Michael's control like all of his "creations".

But maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong; I just don't really think so.

I agree with you that I liked the way John -- and all of them, really -- was torn between wanting to trust the Carson duplicate, and being understandably suspicious.

I don't think you sound bitchy, at least not to me. *g*

I think that one reason why I so strongly resist the idea of female writers as a fix for SGA's writing issues is because I really hate the corollary -- that I, as a female writer, would be incompetent at writing men. Which ... no. Just, no. I refuse to accept that there's no hope for me in that area. I may be allowing ideology to blind me to reality here, but I've never found male characters difficult and I've always enjoyed writing them. I prefer to think of it as a matter of writerly empathy rather than something that follows from what's between the writer's legs.

I'm always happy to see more of the Pegasus Galaxy -- and you're right about the more industrialized civilization being a nice change. Actually, with an entire GALAXY full of inhabited worlds, I don't see why a lot of cultures couldn't evade Wraith notice until they were pretty far along, technologically speaking. Obviously the Satedans did, even though it didn't end well for them.

I've decided not to think about the baby situation. It's too frustrating! I guess I'll just let the show do what it will, and come along for the ride ... however it ends up.

And as much as I *didn't* want things to end this way, thinking about it, I really don't think I'd mind if next season's Teyla focus was Teyla looking for her lost baby. I did like the running thread of the missing Athosians this season, so it may work out well.

... maybe. I reserve the right to complain! ;)

I think they (and Ronon ... that sad little hug still breaks me) need to go get really drunk together now.

...darn you (http://community.livejournal.com/sga_flashfic/716564.html).

I too wish we had gotten more teaminess over the course of the episode, but I guess it was a "so much you can do in 42 minutes" thing. For some reason the writers think that one scene is plenty to whet our appetite. Rodney definitely needed a hug, although I think Teyla is the only one who would initiate them for comfort. (Ronon's always seem to be "You're alive!/I'm alive!/I'm going to miss you!" types).

I think one of my single favorite moments (other than flailing protective Rambo Rodney) of this episode was the safe rescue of the Athosians. I had really been expecting them to be a casualty of the storyline. I'm really hoping they decide to resettle with the Expedition. I mean, the new mainland has giant flying snakes, but makes it harder for psycho Pseudo-Wraiths to kidnap their entire population.

Bring on next week and the inevitable season finale cliffhanger!

The boy may have a strong gift, but that doesn't make him a monster baby.

I'm getting the idea from reading comments that not everybody interpreted the Michael-Teyla scene the same way I did. I'd just assumed that he injected her baby with whatever he used to turn the other Athosians into hybrid bug people. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just can't think what else that stuff could have been.

One of the things I really appreciated about this episode is that everyone (well, everyone except Teyla) got to say goodbye to Carson this time, which in Sunday, they didn't. I know that it's not the same version of Carson, but they still got a sort of closure that they didn't get before.

I could see Rodney spending a lot of time down in the stasis chamber, though, just quietly working on his laptop and keeping Carson company...

I had no problems with Sam; I thought she was being quite reasonable.

Did anyone have problems with Sam? That would surprise me ... I agree with you, I thought that caution was absolutely the right approach to take, especially considering some of the weird stuff the Pegasus Galaxy throws at them.

I'm convinced Teyla's baby is pure Athosian, and I hope it will stay that way; the advantage of Carson having worked on the 'treatments' here is that surely he was also simultaneously considering at every point how to reverse the process.

Well, I just hope that you (and others) are right and I'm wrong. I still think that whatever he injected was the bug serum, and that she's now carrying Michael's ultimate creation. *shudders*

And the little Flanigans are definitely worth rewatching for! They're very cute!

Teyla's passivity did bother me a bit, although I *can* kinda see why she might be having a little more trouble fighting back than usual, being a) massively pregnant and b) in emotional shock from everything that's happened to her in the last day or so.

But overall, yes, it was a fun episode! I can't believe there's only one left in the season.

I'll just join you in your delusional universe until proven otherwise. *joins*

I actually felt that Sam's reactions made perfect sense -- she's responsible for the whole city, and, unlike the rest of her command staff, she's able to be objective about it, in a way they can't be. I think it would have seemed a lot odder (and less professional) to me if she'd easily accepted his return and given him the same level of security clearance that the old Carson used to have. And, from that bit at the end where Michael can control him (HOW? *sigh* okay, probably best not to wonder...), I'd say she was absolutely right to be skeptical!

I do see what you mean about Carson's mental state! A couple other people mentioned that in their comments, too. For some reason it hadn't occurred to me when I watched the episode; I guess I was too startled just to have him back, so it didn't strike me as odd that he was acting just like his old self. But, yeah, even leaving aside the whole cloning thing, he STILL shouldn't have been that emotionally well-balanced!

I do see your point about pregnancy and normalcy; I think the problem is that I desperately *wished* it would be otherwise, and managed to convince myself that it actually *might* be otherwise -- so I kinda deserve my disappointment. *g*

I'm totally with you, about Sam's reactions being perfectly reasonable under the circumstances -- and, actually, since Michael turned out to be able to mind-control Carson, she was absolutely right!

I can never get enough of woobie!Rodney. Well, okay, that's not true; I'm sure I'd get very tired of it if that was all of him we ever saw. But he does "wounded and hurting" so very well, even when he's trying to cover it up with prickliness.

Oops! Someone had problems with Sam; it wasn't you, Sholio, but I thought it was someone on your page. I may have goofed--too many tabs open at once!

Yes, I found them and must show my husband, who was busy this afternoon. They are indeed awfully cute, and I can't believe I missed the one little tyke looking with unbridled love and admiration at his dad.

As with some other episodes from this and the last season, I think I'm liking it better now that I *know* what to expect and I'm not wanting it to give me things that it didn't. I agree with you that the character interactions were all very well played and believable for all of them.

I do see your point with the baby, but, well ... I guess one problem here (assuming they do go the way it looks like they're going) is that I resent that they chose to make the choice so easy -- it's like the old trope where the hero lets the villain live and then, as he's turning away, the villain rises up to shoot him so he kills him in self-defense. Rather than having to make the difficult decision between killing him in cold blood or letting him live and accepting the consequences, he has the choice taken out of his hands. I feel very much as if they're doing that here -- rather than Teyla having to make a difficult choice between motherhood or her role on the team or some compromise, the plot is conveniently removing her baby so it doesn't have to be dealt with. And I **HATE** that.

But, well, as you point out, it *is* the type of show that it is. I think my deep fannishness for this show in some ways is precisely BECAUSE it doesn't go that extra step, in a lot of cases, that I would like to see it go (at least in theory), leaving a lot of fan-space to play with. So, yeah ... I'm frustrated, but more with myself for wanting something from the show that it wasn't willing or able to give. I'll get over it.

I actually do like the way they resolved the Carson thing, because at any point that they want to bring the character back, it's possible to revive him ... but they don't *have* to. And they worked both the Michael plot AND the Hoff plot into Carson's return, which was pretty neat to see.

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SGA: Kindred pt 2...

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Re: I am still very sleep deprived, please forgive any incoherent manifestoing!

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