sholio | SGA: Kindred pt 2...

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episode reactions:sga

SGA: Kindred pt 2...

Um. Not so happy here. About one specific thing in the episode, at least.

Okay, so remember how my huge DO NOT WANT for this season was that I did not want a monster baby for Teyla?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Okay, now that I've got that out of my system...

I totally called the Carson thing! (Edit: Actually,

naye called that one, pretty much. I'd been thinking along the same lines, but she's the one who really laid the theory out in the open, so she ought to have credit.) Except I didn't expect the degeneration. Overall, I was happy that we got a lot of Rodney/Carson interaction -- I also liked the Carson/Keller bits and I loved Ronon's overall awkwardness with the whole situation, right up to the hug at the end, and the sad way he laid his head down on Carson's shoulder? That was pretty much my dose of "awwwwwww" for the episode. Awwwwww!

But aside from that little scene at the beginning where they're outside the isolation room, we really didn't get any reaction scenes with the others discussing and digesting the whole situation, and that left the whole thing feeling kind of flat to me. I think in particular what I wanted was *something* with Rodney getting support from his team, or Sheppard, or even Carter, who's done the whole "He's dead! Oh wait! He's back!" thing too many times to count. Presumably, there would have been scenes like that during the slow times in the middle of the episode -- while Carson and Keller are working at the microscopes, for example. But I wanted to see~! There was lots of stuff with Carson, which was nice, but I didn't really get the sort of emotional impact and teaminess that I wanted from the episode. Maybe I just wanted too much ...?

I did appreciate the fact that Rodney, at least, recognized that a Carson clone with all Carson's memories *is* Carson, for all intents and purposes, which is something that they didn't seem willing to acknowledge with the RepliTeam. I liked Rodney's protectiveness, even to the point of pushing Carson out of the way of bullets and covering him in the field. And ohhh, I hurt for Rodney, having to vicariously relive the deaths of Elizabeth and Original!Carson ... and then losing him AGAIN. And Sheppard, losing Teyla, maybe permanently. I think they (and Ronon ... that sad little hug still breaks me) need to go get really drunk together now.

And they got the Athosians back! Well, most of them! (Er, aside from the dead ones and the really *important* one, of course.) That was pretty neat. Once they get back Teyla AND HER BABY, she'll have somewhere to go.

In conclusion, I'm utterly unspoiled for the season finale and hoping to stay that way (haven't even watched the previews, don't have a clue what to expect other than the title) ... and then we'll be done with the season!

EDIT: Okay, now that I've had time to think and digest the episode a little bit, I'm feeling a lot better about most of what bugged me, emotionally. I think the problem *was* that I had certain sorts of scenes I wanted to see, and we didn't see them, and I was irked by that. But I did like what we got! (Well, except for the Teyla thing. NOT GOING THERE.)

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anyone else notice carson's "no wonder i felt like a dogs breakfast!" Call out to David!!! :D

and you totally see Joe's kids giving him a smile!!!

i loved that at the end when they froze carson they all kind of stood around as if to say they really didn't want to have to walk away and leave him....

I cried like a baby at the end...seriously...it killed me :(

Some male writers can write fantastic women. Joss is such a man.

No one associated with the Stargate franchise is in danger of coming close to writing women well.

Re: Teyla's baby. I console myself with the fact that Michael is a raving lunatic. He thinks Teyla's baby will help his research. I have my doubts. Surely Teyla and Kanaan can't be the first 2 people with The Gift that have made a baby over the centuries. The boy may have a strong gift, but that doesn't make him a monster baby. Yet. I'm really hoping (and I have seen no spoilers for S5 so this is pure speculation) that they'll go a different direction than having Michael steal the kid leaving Teyla searching the galaxy for him all next season.

On Rodney and comfort - when Carson turns to Rodney after Ronon hugs him, McKay turns away and looks at the stasis pod. John keeps an eye on him, but I don't think Rodney could handle "comfort" at that moment. He never stopped talking, he never said goodbye, he didn't even shake Carson's hand. DENIAL. To accept comfort from someone else would make it real. I think John knows him well enough to understand that (John's the same way).

I absolutely ADORED the Rodney-Carson friendship moments. *hugs Rodney*

I'm like

naye, I don't cry, but when Ronon admitted that his reluctance was due to being afraid of losing Carson again and then HUGGED him. *sniff* In some ways, I thought this was sadder than Sunday.

Have expressed my general thoughts on the ep elsewhere (I liked it well enough - not a great ep but a good one) but something else has just occured to me:

With all the "Teyla missing/Carson back from the dead" stuff going on, everyone seems to have completely forgotten the rather important issue from Part I of the nasty Hoffan virus Mark II being used to randomly infect worlds and kill rather a lot of innocent folks in the process. What with dat?!!

I, like you, am utterly unspoiled for the finale, other than the general bits I knew of months ago, and am hoping to stay that way and let it all be a surprise. :)

Yes! Rodney is too deeply in denial to accept anything remotely like comfort at this point, because he doesn't need comfort, because they're going to save Carson, soon, and he's not going to acknowledge any alternative any more than Sheppard would think (or let Ronon) think about the syringe.

I had no problems with Sam; I thought she was being quite reasonable. She had no emotional connection with Carson, and she didn't see this as someone back from the dead; I think she was more afraid of something like "Foothold"--or even "Gemini." It's when the aliens look like friends (or like you!), and especially when bad guys have created and programmed them, that you get into real trouble! She's the commander, and she has to see Carson as not Carson, but a threat. After all, he has been programmed by Michael, although not as much as she no doubt feared. Given all those worries, and past experiences with her Replicator self, I thought she was quite sympathetic in the final scene. Partly, she feels for the team; partly, I think he has managed to connect with her, because, well, he's Carson.

I'm convinced Teyla's baby is pure Athosian, and I hope it will stay that way; the advantage of Carson having worked on the 'treatments' here is that surely he was also simultaneously considering at every point how to reverse the process.

I too have the sinking feeling that they'll solve Teyla's baby versus place on the team dilemma by making her place on the team a way to get the baby back. To echo a sentiment already expressed: DO NOT WANT! I deeply hope that doesn't happen, but I'm trying to prepare myself for it.

For the most part, though, I'm just so full of squee at getting Carson back, and getting scenes with Carson and Rodney that really did exceed my expectations (low expectations is the way to go, I'm telling you!), that I refuse to let the Teyla/Michael/Kanaan/baby stuff bother me. In fact, I'm planning to watch the episode again and skip those most disturbing scenes. (I do have to catch the little Flanigans! I didn't know until after I'd seen it!)

My review is here.

I just re-watched the episode with my husband and still enjoyed all the emotional scenes you mentioned. Rodney's were the best, they balanced out John's internalization on the whole.

The only thing that tainted the rest upon the second viewing was there were two chances for Teyla to leave and now she's all about "Kanan" which really bugged me. She could have left with Carson and even after that, Michale just took her my the arm, stunner away. Teyla should have been able to handle him easily. It annoys me how the writers pick and choose when to have strong!Teyla.

However, the episode on a whole was very well down. Proving to me that Alan writes some of my favs for this season. I'm sure with this script he was told the whats and hows and he had to work within a framework.

And stasis pods for the win! Its a fanfic tradition and now TPTB know that too!

I don't deny that they haven't done that great (though I don't think I'm as unhappy with their women characters, and the way they handle them, as some fans are).

But I object to the idea that I keep running across in the fandom -- that hiring women is a panacea for the show's problems in that area. Heck, I can point you at scads of female fanfic writers who don't write women well at all!

I think writers of either gender can write either gender well, as long as they are keen observers of human nature and are willing to learn from their mistakes. The show doesn't need female writers so much as it needs more nuanced and introspective writers.

I'd agree with you, that they were enjoyable episodes but not standouts. I liked this one better than last week's because there was so much more interpersonal stuff, which is basically my favorite thing about the show.

Er ... kinda. I think it was more a case of going back and working with what they already had (with only moderate success), rather than dropping clues. There *are* things that happened in the third season without which their Carson-return would not have made sense (or, perhaps I should say, "less sense than it does"). However, I don't think they put them in there deliberately to set up his return.

Yeah, I agree. After Part 1, I had no idea what I'd just seen.

Like you, I found last night's episode's interpersonal stuff to get better with time. What kind of struck me 8 hours after watching it was how protective of Rodney and Carson's relationship John was - I can't pinpoint WHY I think this, but I feel it now.

- - - -

You should definitely do a post-ep! No new fic writing for me until I get my gen ficathon story done.

- Helen

Sure, good writers can write either gender well. And I agree that simply hiring women writers isn't going to fix all the problems with the show. However, with a show (heck, a whole franchise) that has consistently given its female characters short shrift - except for the one that they have continually put on an obvious pedestal - I think that the failure to ever bring even a single female writer in is significant.

I mean, yes, female writers don't automatically mean brilliant writing of female characters. But when the all-male writing staff has consistently failed to deliver well-written women, the obvious first step to trying to correct that would be to bring in writers who have a definite insight into the female mind. And a female writer surely qualifies.

BTW, I'm not feeling as blunt and bitchy as I sound about this. Just had a really rotten couple of days!

I've decided that since when the team got to the lab Ronon picked up a syringe and squirted it and liquid came out, somehow Michael must have not actually injected whatever the fluorescent green crap was and Teyla's baby is going to be perfectly fine and normal. *nods* *continues to live in delusional universe*

But! Look! They remembered HALLING! (I wanted Jinto so bad!) and, yeah, I called Carson too, but they did it well (except for the bit that just grabbing some DNA isn't going to make an identical person. ARGH!)

I spent the entire episode waiting for Teyla to fight back - especially when it was Teyla, Michael and Carson because, I mean, I know she's hugely pregnant but...it's Teyla. She can still swing a stick or throw a punch. Her going to easily felt wrong.

But, yeah, mostly entertaining, but nothing special. And totally cop-out way to wait on deciding if they actually want Carson back.

I did love Carson asking for Elizabeth and Rodney's reactions - at least we got something. And I kept yelling at Sam "you've seen people come back from the dead all the time. why are you so skeptical?"

Was it just me, or did Carson seem remarkably...okay mentally for having been Michael's prisoner for two years?

And I'll stop babbling at you.

Well, I liked the episode for the most part - mainly due to Paul/Carson being back and I think you could just feel the emotions from the set (and definitely cute Joe's sons were in the ep).

That said, I think I'll echo the whole expecting Teyla to be more of her usual tough as nails self. My other big complaint (and I'm probably one of a handful to pick up on some of this) is how bad the science of the whole telomere/aging/genetics issue was, but I'm working on a degree in genetics, so there are times I have to shut that part of my brain off...

Heeee~! Yes, I laughed out loud at that. XD

I'm glad you approve! XD

Awww - thanks! I mean, I thought you were totally right to say you call it, but still - thank you. ♥ (In the end, though, I think it was a theory that was more a product of fangirl hivemind than anything else -

gnine was saying the exact same things about it when I talked to her on the phone about it! XD)

Yeah ... with me, I found out that Carson was leaving in the middle of season 3, so I went through a whole emotionally-pulling-back thing up until "Sunday"...

This is such an interesting example of how spoilers have affected both our viewing the show - and not just for the specific episodes spoiled, either! I think it says a lot about why we're the type to stay away from them - they really get to us, whether we want them to or not.

Rodney's "one of the best friends I've ever had" in this episode -- which, OMG, he actually said to his face!

I noticed that! Both that he said it to his face (oh, Rodney!), and that it was phrased differently than in "Sunday". I approve!

SG-1 had a couple female writers, actually, Katharyn Powers and Heather E. Ash, which didn't help them much, but.

--I'm really playing devil's advocate here, I concede your point. The presence of female writers does not automatically equal good female chars, but it can help. As do women producers and directors. (The new Dr. Who, silly comedy 'Psych', and Numb3rs have some of my more favorite female chars around these days, and while the writing staffs of all are still mostly male, they have significant female presences helming the show.)

(except for the bit that just grabbing some DNA isn't going to make an identical person. ARGH!)

XDD One of my constant pet peeves with nearly all SF cloning. How did Michael age him to exactly the right point? And he grew up in a tube and came out the right height and weight and everything! It doesn't really bother me because I'm so used to seeing it, but it does tend to make me giggle at inappropriate moments...

I liked the ep, didn't love it, put it probably somewhere in the middle.

The Teyla pregnancy thing didn't bother me that much, but that's because I was expecting it. (the thing is, some of it is the writers dropping the ball, but some of it is, hmm, the constraints of the genre? Teyla's baby has to be special and significant somehow, or else there's no reason for it. TV scifi is not generally about 'slice of life' stories (though I wish there were a couple shows that were) and SGA is not particularly a story about family or child-rearing - those can be occasional themes, but not major arcs. There's very few significant events in the chars' in-show lives which are actually normal (the Katie Brown/Rodney relationship comes about the closest, and even that was only occasional and rather awkward and stiltedly unconvincing. Also 'normal' still means their first kiss was when Rodney was possessed by another consciousness. So, yes, case in point) because (broadly speaking) - this is scifi, and in scifi the normal/expected/realistic is boring! Main chars in scifi don't die of cancer (unless it's radiation or alien-induced) or car accidents (unless they're engineered by conspiracies), don't get married unless it's a set-up for life-altering tragedy/revenge arcs, and don't have kids unless they're spectacularly significant in some way. So I never expected Teyla's pregnancy to be ordinary, and this is about as close to normal as I could've expected.)

Woobie!Rodney was great. And while Carter didn't get a chance to sympathize with them about the qualms of friends returning from the grave, I loved the scene when she was arguing caution (wisely, I thought, since Carson could've been a trap, I wasn't convinced myself until the end that he was on the level and not a plant of Michael's somehow) and Sheppard was all pouty and clearly thinking, "But I've read the reports and you got Daniel Jackson back like a million times, can't we just have this one?"

Edited 2008-03-02 09:15 (UTC)

Well, honestly, I liked the whole two-parter.

When Michael's plan for Teyla's baby was revealed I did think that you might not like it, but it didn't really have much impact on me. I suppose that I've sort of thought all along that having a normal baby grow up on Atlantis would be a logistics nightmare in terms of ongoing plot for an adventure sci-fi TV series. I mean, are they going to set up a daycare centre in the Gateroom or something? I don't think so. (Sorry, but as I'm typing this, my brother is playing game reviews by "Yahtzee" from escapistmagazine.com aloud in the background and I find his brand of staccato cynicism somehow creeping in). So, because I expected that there would have to be some plot twist to "remove" the baby some way, the idea that a villain might kidnap him (even to experiment on) seemed like a reasonably "logical" plot step to me.

I was also vaguely aware that Carson was to return. It was one of those terribly non-secret spoilers that you almost couldn't avoid knowing. And truth be told, I was almost dreading seeing him again because all the ways I thought they might bring him back seemed really lame to me. But the way they did bring him back was much less lame than I thought it would be. Cloning is kinda cliche for sci-fi, but the way they worked it in with Michael's story really worked for me. I always thought that the ethical "payback" of what his experiments had done to Michael should have been part of Carson's "downfall" from the moment I heard he was leaving in the first place. So having it "tacked on" to his return kinda works for me. And yes, he's conveniently out of the way again, but that's okay with me too. Again, I really didn't expect him to return on a full time basis. Keller has taken his place on his Atlantis and hence his medical presence is now redundant. They had to do something with him (like they had to with the baby once it's born) and locking him in stasis is again a bit cliche (see half a dozen fanfics that need a character out of the way for a bit) but it's still a logical step to take.

I *LOVED* the way all the reactions to his return were played by each character. Rodney trying to be "a good friend", but still being Rodney. The fact that he said that acknowledged that while finding he was a clone must be difficult forn Carson, Rodney himself can't help but feel like he's got his friend from the dead. Ronon not being able to talk about it (until the very end). Sheppard still being *SHEPPARD* and not getting teary-eyed or overly emotional - and appearing to support Rodney and Ronon in their emotional crisis. John isn't the type of guy to "lose it" in these emotional situations - instead he seemed (to me) to be almost an emotional bridge for the others. It's him that explains to Carson why Ronon won't talk to him. I've never really had the impression that Sam really was close to Carson, so a lack of interaction was not felt. The Beckett-Keller dynamic interested me because as I understood it, she knew the other Carson briefly and served under him before he died and she took over, but this Carson would have no memory of even meeting her. Those issues weren't specifically scripted, but I still liked the interplay between them. Teyla was a hostage elsewhere for most of the episode, but when she first sees Carson without any warning, her reaction was absolutely believable and in character.

Edited 2008-03-02 12:22 (UTC)

I was so surprised and pleased when Halling reappeared. The actor plays Todd the Wraith too, doesn't he? Since Todd was already in the storyline, I really didn't expect to see Halling - never expected to see him again after the Athosians first disappeared several eps ago, actually. So I had a real YAY moment. And it's not like I even really liked Halling to start with (didn't hate him, but never really thought about him much), and yet it was a little bitr like Bates return all over again.

One another note, I've also got to say that while I really love seeing Lorne (and Caldwell too, since I haven't babbled about part 1) every time, I'm beginning to get ridiculously nervous every time Lorne goes on a mission that he won't make it back. They've killed off so many characters, both major and secondary, in the last season and a half. I feel like Lorne could get red-shirted at any time.

And honestly, I *LOVE* the Michael character. Always have. He's a bastard, but geez he's got some reason to be. The moral quagmire the Atlantis crew started way back when just keeps getting deeper, as IMHO it should. Consequences! Everything has consequences! I still love that about the whole Michael storyline.

I, for one, still can't wait to see how it goes from here.

My initial reaction? Joe M: if fans ever ask you again to resurrect a character, ignore, refuse, play deaf. This didn't work for me at all. I liked Carson Beckett as a character, Sunday had a big emotional impact, the funeral, Rodney's sadness, everything rang true, and now this, a cloned Beckett, put away in storage until they can find a cure for old age. Arrgh! Yet another character who is dead but not really.

On the other hand, I enjoy villain Michael immensely, the best kind, creepy and horrible, but with a flicker of just cause and the way they've tied his storyline with Beckett, Hoff and Teyla's people and her pregnancy is very well done.

And Teyla finally found a handful of her people (among which were Joe F's kids. Awwww, too cute).

So, in conclusion, not a great episode, but I may have to watch it again - I was exhausted the other night, so it probably influenced my judgement.

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SGA: Kindred pt 2...

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Re: I am writing this in my sleep

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I am still very sleep deprived, please forgive any incoherent manifestoing!

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