Old Soldiers Die Hard, race on Stargate, and other things

[sholio]

Old Soldiers Die Hard is this week's topic of discussion at sga_talk. So, if there's something that's always bugged you about the story or something that just *has* to be said, now is the time! As authors have been doing in past discussions, I think I'll probably stay out of it for the most part and come in at the end to answer questions. I've always really liked seeing my work discussed, whether or not it's positive -- actually, a flawed work makes the most interesting meta!

Which leads right into the next part of this post. Something else that I've been pondering about "Midway" after posting my squee-post ... I've seen various discussions around the fannish 'net about the unpleasant race issues in the episode. It's not that I'm unaware of it, it's not even that I don't care ... it's just that, when it comes to this particular episode, my thoughts kind of align with what delux_vivens said on deadbrowalking (and the comments too). I *can* see the problems with it, it *does* skeeve me if I think too much about it, but the episode (and that fight scene too) just pushed my fan buttons so damned hard anyway, in all kinds of ways ...! I don't really want to sit around defending that fight scene (the whole concept of which is, yeah, kinda worrisome), but I honestly don't see it as being OOC for the characters, or out of keeping with the rough, bloody, essentially rule-free universe of SGA. There's a point in the fight where I think Teal'c is taking it a little more personally than I'd reasonably expect from him, but they're still absolutely in control. (Look how close the spectators are, and Sam's lack of fear.)

And yet it *is* a pretty big thing to have been left out of my Midway commentary in favor of the "all squee, all the time" approach, and I did think about bringing it up even back when I wrote the commentary, before discovering that the things that made me go "hmm" about the episode weren't just me, but, well -- I'm still "all squee, all the time" for the episode in spite of it. I sometimes wonder if I'd be doing myself and the rest of my corner of fandom a favor if I was a little less "all squee, all the time" for the show, though... (But, but ... fan buttons! Pushed! So hard!) I think it's possible, too, that this scene might read a little rougher-edged and less acceptable to someone who didn't grow up the way I did, in a blue-collar environment where a bare-knuckle fight seems like a perfectly reasonable way for two guys to resolve their differences. Again, I'm really not trying to defend the writers' decision to write it the way they did, and god knows they could've done better; it's just that one of the things that really draws me to the SGA universe is that the characters *don't* tend to take the civilized route to solving their problems. It's a frontier. I really like that rough, brutal, frontier feeling to it, and tend to feel a little disappointed in episodes that shy away from showing the darker, dirtier side of that -- which was, in fact, one reason why I liked this one so much, and disliked aspects of Travelers on the same grounds.

On an entirely different topic, I have an RSS question. Does anyone know if it's possible to use LJ to subscribe to the RSS feed for a blog if it doesn't specifically have an LJ feed set up for it? There are several non-LJ blogs that I read (on wordpress and elsewhere) that I would like to add to my LJ feeds if possible. If it's NOT possible (as far as you know) can anyone tell me how to set up an LJ feed for a non-LJ blog, so that I might suggest it? (I feel like a total dork suggesting "Hey, you could set up an LJ feed!" when I wouldn't be able to answer the first question about how to do it.)

Comments

[ratcreature]

You enter the URL of the blog in the field on the syndication page:
http://www.livejournal.com/syn/
and then LJ will tell you whether a feed exists and if not ask you if you want to create one, though I think creating them may be a paid option.

[sholio]

Oh, fantastic, thank you!

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

but I honestly don't see it as being OOC for the characters, or out of keeping with the rough, bloody, essentially rule-free universe of SGA. There's a point in the fight where I think Teal'c is taking it a little more personally than I'd reasonably expect from him, but they're still absolutely in control. (Look how close the spectators are, and Sam's lack of fear.)

That's where I am with it. I don't know Teal'c well, but it seemed completely in character for Ronon; and I could see Teal'c thinking this was a good way for Ronon to get to know him; and I could see John COMPLETELY not getting that there was anything wrong with it; and I loved Sam's Stop This Now reaction too. Whether this is the best way to write characters - well, I don't know. This is the show we have, I guess.

(An aside - if Weir were still there, I think John would have not allowed the fight. But I think he relies on Carter to be the boss in ways he didn't with Weir; whether this is because he has more respect for Carter, or less, I don't know.)

[sholio]

(An aside - if Weir were still there, I think John would have not allowed the fight. But I think he relies on Carter to be the boss in ways he didn't with Weir; whether this is because he has more respect for Carter, or less, I don't know.)

I dunno about that -- I don't think John was thinking it through enough to get to the "my boss wouldn't be okay with this" point, regardless of who his boss was. I think *John* honestly didn't think there was anything wrong with it, which, to me, makes perfect sense for him -- as a guy, and a fairly hands-on, physical kind of guy in a very physical occupation, I don't think he was thinking beyond, "They'll be fine once they work off some steam" and possibly "My teammate can totally take this guy!" (And I don't necessarily think he was in the wrong, either.)

[sgatazmy.livejournal.com]

Hey there. Thought I'd chime in, because I've seen this race problem talked about in a few places, and it actually baffles me.

I just don't see the race thing at all. Honestly, I don't. When I watch Atlantis I see Teal'c and Ronon fighting in character and reacting just as they do. I don't see it has anything to do with primitive cultures or race or anything. Just how those two characters would react to one another. Teal'c not fighting out of offense, but to reach Ronon. Ronon fighting because that is what he does and, yes, he does feel threatened. If it were two white guys from America fighting like that then I wouldn't care either, as long as it was how those characters would react. (I could see John fighting like that if he felt threatened.) So I don't know. Maybe I'm just ignorant?

Now Travelers or the Tower, those two eps and how they showed culture...there I completely see the race thing. The writers have a hard time writing alien cultures that are real and rich in their own right.

Midway was all squee for me. You're right, it pushed lots of fan squee buttons, and I'm an easy sell. :)

[sholio]

You're right, it pushed lots of fan squee buttons, and I'm an easy sell. :)

That's pretty much me to a "T". :D I was really looking forward to this episode just based on what little I knew about it, and it totally hit all my fan buttons. I'm a total sucker for "characters conflict at first contact, fight, bicker, have to team up, earn each other's respect" and this episode THOROUGHLY hit that fangirl kink with a side order of h/c!

I *can* see the race thing operating here, but I think it's more to do with how the world was set up in the first place, and the character traits they gave the characters to begin with. Which is, yes, problematic. But within this specific episode, not so much -- I can see why people are bothered by the fight, really I can, but it didn't bother me that way, with the possible exception of Teal'c going off on Ronon at the end. (But then they saved the SGC single-handedly, which pretty much makes up for darn near anything as far as I'm concerned. Once again, I'm easy. :D )

I'm missing something too...

[morjana.livejournal.com]

What " unpleasant race issues in the episode"?

Morjana

Re: I'm missing something too...

[sholio]

See the links in my post. Short version is that Ronon and Teal'c appear to have gotten paired off for a beat-down (and equated by fandom in general) on the basis of both of them being big non-white guys. With a side order of more issues than I'm getting into here. Which, yeah, I can see the problems there, but my brain was pretty much stuck on its "Teal'c, squeeeee, so pretty!" setting.

[astridv.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I really didn't see this scene as problematic in terms of race; frankly that reaction baffles me. I didn't see the race thing when I watched it first, and after having read Cesperanca's post, and rewatched the episode, I still can't see it.

I simply read it as a friendly* sparring match/testing of strength between two guys who happen to be played by actors with an ethnic background.

Both characters come from a warrior/military background. And both characters are such formidable fighters that a sparring match with an evenly matched partner must be a rare opportunity. Totally in character for both of them, imho, for them to have a go at it.

* (it was friendly, in spite of the veiled animosity and the testosterone floating in the air. I didn't see that fight as particularly fierce. When John and Ronon are sparring, there're often enough bruises and a bit of blood, too. Just that those two are nowhere near matched so Ronon has to hold back.)

And as to the betting on the fight... that's kind of thing I'd expext, in a military outpost at the edge of nowhere, where you got to make your own entertainment.

[sholio]

Yeah, and I think the deadbrowalking discussion is a lot more relevant and balanced than the Cesperanza one (but maybe I just think that 'cause I agree with most of what they're saying :D). From my point of view, the issues mainly stem from how the entire world has been set up, with the only two non-white males on the two shows being "warrior" types (and, in Ronon's case, a very aggressive warrior type). That, and the way fandom tends to equate them simply on the basis of that -- I have NO DOUBT that "Who would win in a fight, Ronon or Teal'c?" is a common topic of discussion in some fan circles, much more so than, say, Teal'c vs. Teyla or Sheppard vs. O'Neill.

It's not the episode itself; it's how it's framed in the larger setting. Like I noted above, to me, the fight works perfectly in-universe; that is, it's plausible and appropriate and, IMHO, in character (with the possible exception of Teal'c getting a little too into it at the end -- but even then, as hard as they're going at each other, they're still in control; Sam trusts them not to hit her by accident). It's only if you pull back and look at the whole thing in context of the series as a whole, and the sort of roles and storylines it gives to actors of color, that it looks a bit wince-inducing. For example, I think they could easily have done more or less the same storyline with Sheppard and O'Neill, earlier in the run of the series, complete with bare-knuckle boxing etc. But I think it would have been framed a little differently, both within and without of the show's universe.

But none of that stops me from loving the hell out of the episode. I mean, c'mon, it's a "Ronon and Teal'c save the planet" buddy movie! And I love the betting. As you said -- military outpost in the middle of nowhere. They are not going to act like ladies sitting down for tea.

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

Wow. I kinda wish I hadn't read this. I really loved the episode, and now I kinda feel like maybe there's something wrong with me because I did. :S Oh well. It's something to think about anyway, and engaging the brain muscles once in a while is not a bad thing. LOL!

I'm still a little confused about why this fight is so much more objectionable than the fight in Reunion. I do kind of see what they're talking about, but on the other hand.... I'm not sure I agree completely. The fight in Reunion was much more violent and animalistic, but no one (at least that I saw) was complaining about race in that episode. And maybe I've just read too much fanfic, but the betting thing seemed completely normal for a military setting. *shrugs*

And I confess that it always breaks my brain a little bit to think about these characters in terms of race anyway. I have to kind of refocus, because it's not something I normally think about. I guess maybe that isn't a good thing either? :S

Oh well.

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

Speaking of not thinking of the characters in terms of race - it reminds me a little bit of when someone on Mallozzi's blog accused people of being against the John/Teyla pairing because it's an interracial pairing. I was like, wait what? While I'm not for the pairing at all, it had never occurred to me to think of them as an interracial couple. :S

[sholio]

Oh, don't feel bad for liking it! I loved it. I think the comment I just wrote to astridv, above you, lays out *where* I think the problems stem from and why they didn't really bother me in context of this particular episode. It's *a* point of view. I think it's a valid point of view. But it's not one that I really subscribe to in the specific instance of this episode, which is pretty much right up there with Doppelganger as my favorite of the season.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I had serious problems with the episode (my review, but mine weren't racially focused. Maybe that was naive. I don't think of the characters as raceless, and one of the things that bothered me about losing Aiden Ford was that suddenly, once again, the Stargate universe had no major characters of color who weren't aliens! I heard they originally wanted to cast a totally different astrophysicist, and that the original casting call was for an African-American. Casting failed, and they rewrote the part to include an existing character. I've always wondered why casting failed, but I think it would be going awfully far to speculate that it was on purely racial grounds. It had occurred to me that John/Teyla would be an interracial pairing--but, darn it, I don't want the major characters paired off. No John/Elizabeth, no John/Teyla, no John/Rodney, no John/Sam, no John/Woolsey--you get the picture.

I felt that Ronon and Teal'c were out of character. I felt that Sheppard was far more out of character than they were, however! I totally missed that John apparently called Ronon "boy"; I just didn't hear it (not unusual for me to miss lines).

I grew up in Detroit. Too often, issues weren't settled with bare-knuckle fights; they were settled with weapons. Maybe that's why I'm so horrified that Ronon drew his gun on Teal'c at lunch, which I thought was totally out of character. I can understand him getting upset; Teal'c was deliberately pushing his buttons, which he does quite well. I could even understand a brawl, or maybe one of his favorite knives. But pulling a gun on someone sitting across the table from you? That's not Ronon Dex. The gun upset me in some ways more than the fist-fight, so maybe it does have to do with our backgrounds. (I lost two classmates to guns in high school--none to knives, none to fist fights.)

I'm not convinced racial issues led to bad writing; I think that bad writing gave rise to racial issues. I think the writers should have been more sensitive (and I think I should have been more aware and caught this subtext myself, for there is something there!). I do, however, think it's bad writing. I don't think it makes the writers racists. I think they are sometimes insensitive, and this was one of those times.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

He said "Good Boy" he didn't call Ronon "boy" which had a whole another subtext.

And I see nothing wrong with that either. Ronon and John are close friends. My husband affectionately calls his best pal "Hey A$$hole" all the time.

When one of my male co-workers did something right one day at work I patted him on the shoulder with a "Good Boy" ...without second thought. And have done it many times before.

My husband jokes around with me and says "Good Girl" all the time.

I don't know, didn't see anything wrong with what was said....maybe the writer's assume the viewers understand terms of endearment, but don't realize that not everyone uses those same terms or might misinterpret them.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I never, ever saw the fight in that light. I can understand where the thought process came from, but on the other side, I think too many people are reading into things that are not there in what boils down to fan boy moment between two warrior heroes.

*shrugs*

On another note, I love your reviews they are objective, thoughtful and if an eppy hits all your buttons, you're not afraid to be happy about it! That type of behavior is ok!

:-P Sometimes I think people look for things to nitpick, of course our show does give us plenty to do so at times. lol

[sholio]

Thank you, although I don't know if I'd consider my reviews objective! :D But yeah. I'm not shy about saying how I felt about an episode, whether it's one that I loved and the rest of fandom hated (*cough* Trio *cough*) or vice versa.

I kinda went into this in an earlier comment so I'll link rather than repeating myself, but I do think the issue, at least for me, is not so much with the episode as a stand-alone, as the episode seen in context of the show as a whole and the way it deals with race, and our society as a whole and the way IT deals with race. I mean, like I said in the other comment, you could do the exact same storyline with Sheppard and O'Neill, though you'd probably have to roll the timeline back to make it work. But I truly believe that it would be framed differently, that the macho posturing would read differently, be handled differently. The characters *are* in character in the episode, at least I think so, but it's *still* kind of skeevy because the way their personalities have been set up in the show's universe, and the way they're expressed through the writing, is in itself a bit skeevy ... if that makes any sense.

Your mileage may vary. And I still loved the episode to bits, and want to hug and pet and hold it.

[dovil.livejournal.com]

If the general consensus is that the fight was in character I'm not sure then how that particular scene can be construed as being racist if it would naturally stem from how they would react. However, in the bigger scheme of things maybe there is a question as to why the "alien warrior" characters are non-white (Teyla, Ronon and Teal'c). Is it a bit of meta on being an outsider, is it unintentional racism, or is it a complete coincidence? *shrugs*

[sholio]

However, in the bigger scheme of things maybe there is a question as to why the "alien warrior" characters are non-white (Teyla, Ronon and Teal'c).

Yeah. Precisely. At least that's what it is for me. I gather that for cesperanza and others, it's that the fight happened at all, which in my opinion is perfectly in character for the characters as they've been written, and I don't have a single problem with it. My problem is more with the universe being set up so that a fight between Ronon and Teal'c had to happen at some point, because "In a fight between [x] and [x] equivalent characters, who would win?" is so deeply entrenched in fanboy culture, and Ronon and Teal'c are seen as equivalent by the fandom (and the writers) for reasons that really shouldn't be.

[trystings.livejournal.com]

Race thing? I honest to god did not see a 'race thing' in the fight between Ronon and Teal'c. They are both good fighters and Sheppard tried to stave off a crisis by letting Ronon blow off some steam and letting him do what he does best on Atlantis, which is sparring. And they'd been fighting for an hour, no wonder that by the time Carter stepped in, people were taking bets.

If there was a race thing it was Carter's remark to Teal'c, that "he and Ronon were similar in many ways" (like, both alien and both warriors?) and should therefore "have a lot in common". This whole Earth superiority complex 'we don't trust the aliens on our base, even if it's in another galaxy where WE are the aliens' is the race thing, not Ronon and Teal'c fighting or two black guys fighting with a white audience. It never even occurred to me to look at Ronon and Teal'c as black. (Does that make me a conditioned racist or just the opposite? Hmm)

I truly enjoyed the episode. Ronon and Teal'c saved the day and Ronon is 100% acknowledged as a valuable member of the team, so no, no racial issues for me.

[sholio]

It was, at heart, a "Ronon and Teal'c save the world" buddy movie, and I would forever love the episode for that and that alone, even if there hadn't been a thousand other things to love about it.

But as you noted:

If there was a race thing it was Carter's remark to Teal'c, that "he and Ronon were similar in many ways" (like, both alien and both warriors?) and should therefore "have a lot in common". This whole Earth superiority complex 'we don't trust the aliens on our base, even if it's in another galaxy where WE are the aliens' is the race thing, not Ronon and Teal'c fighting or two black guys fighting with a white audience.

Yeah, although I'd say there's an extra level of skankiness because aliens in the Stargateverse are very often cast as nonwhite, so we have THOSE issues on top of the xenophobia issue.

I can see *why* some see the fight as being troublesome and/or offensive all on its own, but I don't really agree, because it fits with my perception of the characters and the universe. However, the fight was in some ways inevitable because of the way the universe has been set up, written and cast, and *that* I do have a problem with.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

I'm a little torn on Midway. I wanted to like it so incredibly badly. I've been looking forward to it since August.

And it just didn't sit right with me at all. So many of the characters felt just a shade off and, well, gateverse has race issues (so does tv in general and the world) and usually I like the episodes enough that I don't let them get to me, but they really came out to me in this episode and since I already felt the characters were not acting like themselves, it hit me harder.

(and, let me say, I love watching well coreographed fights and I love boxing movies and I am all behind seeing Ronon and Teal'c fight and I would be shocked for them to meet and *not* spar, I just think the way the show actually set it up was done very, very poorly)

(I also didn't like the other points which made Rodney and the rest of SGC look like inexperienced idiots rather than the smart people who've been doing this for 11 years that they actually are)

But I'm really happy other people enjoyed it because, well, if I didn't, someone should, so I'm mostly trying to not run around complaining about it and I want to remember the parts I *did* like.

[sholio]

I really *am* sorry that you didn't enjoy it, because I loved it so, and I want everyone to be able to love it, damn it! (We even got some nice Teal'c/Sam scenes ... my super-seekrit SG-1 OTP! :D )

All I can say is that sometimes the race issues get to me, and sometimes they don't, and in this episode they didn't. I'm not saying they weren't there, just that I really didn't feel they were any MORE there than they are in an average episode of the show. But everyone's mileage varies on this, I know.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I've read most of the comments + responses here and don't have much new to add, just that my opinion jives with yours, pretty much. I thought the fight was great fun and not particularly racist in itself, but very (perhaps disturbingly) illuminating of the underlying issues of race in the show, which are huge and icky and DONOTWANT. That all the major aliens on Atlantis are people of color, and the only major characters of color; that they are the physical fighters, brawn over brain; that color = foreign/exotic/alien - yeah, that is incredibly disturbing, and something I try not to think about. Which makes me, um, bad person, good fangirl?

[sholio]

I think ... I think you can't really enjoy a show like SGA without being able to turn that part of your brain off and on. Luckily(?), when I fangirl, I'm about as deep as a puddle *g*, so I'm having fun anyway.

I think it's obviously good to be able to turn that part of the brain back on, and that the show shouldn't get a total pass on its issues just because it's cute and fun. But I also don't see any reason to deny myself the pleasure of something I really, truly enjoy, that hits my fangirl buttons in a way that few things do, without guilt-tripping myself about it. er, which is probably rather self-indulgent and bad of me, but like I said, shallow puddle ...

(It also occurs to me that longtime shonen manga fans, like you and me, probably have a skewed idea of how it's appropriate for two fighter-types to act upon first meeting one another. Of *course* they had to spar and brawl and get each other bloody! That's perfectly normal, right? ^_^)

[deaka.livejournal.com]

I didn't like the fight scene particularly, and was a bit uncomfortable with Sheppard's actions in encouraging it, but it was less to do with the race thing and more to do with the 'yay, random pointless violence' thing used as a ploy by the writers. But the more I think about it, the less I like it. It's annoying, because the rest of the episode was so enjoyable.

[sholio]

I must guiltily admit that I liked the fight, but I've always enjoyed dystopic futures and bar brawls and post-apocalypse worlds, so this just played RIGHT into that side of my fannish psyche! But, yeah. Problematic.

[anniehow.livejournal.com]

"I sometimes wonder if I'd be doing myself and the rest of my corner of fandom a favor if I was a little less "all squee, all the time" for the show, though... "

Oh noes! do not harsh your own squee!

[sholio]

*laughs* Don't worry, I think my squee is safe! I do second-guess myself sometimes, though. I *know* the show is flawed and I don't want to overlook that.

[acari.livejournal.com]

here via metafandom

I am generally all on board with the "all squee all the time" approach, especially when it comes to SGA. I am very experienced in handwaving the stupid and offensive aspects of this or any other show. I see it as a defense mechanism to a degree, or maybe an unspoken agreement: you give me my shiny sparkly ponies of choice, and I won't poke you with a stick and stop watching. That's my approach to shows like SGA that I watch for very shallow reasons. If I categorise a show as high quality, like Friday Night Lights, I am a lot less forgiving.

I can squint and look past the treatment of women and CoC, and the tendency of the writers to go for the cheap laugh, as long as I get my Team love and things that go boom and maybe some amusing techno babble. That said, I have limits and Midway pushed me so far beyond them it's not even funny. What I saw was an episode that took every single aspect of SGA I loathe, and combined it. I did not let me handwave. The fight scene framed differently would have been very nice to watch (I do love John, Teyla and Ronon sparring after all).

My problem was that I could not view the episode other than through the lens of race. From the very first scene I had a queasy feeling in my stomach and it only got worse. I tried to put Ronon's reactions in the context of male posturing, trying to solve problems with fists, anything I could think of, but then when I had almost retconned the episode for myself I got tripped up by Sam claiming Teal'c and Ronon are the same, or John's "good boy", or the bit about "pesky Pegasus germs" and the reference to the movie Norbit, etc. All these instances taken out of context wouldn't have made me even blink, but in combination with Ronon being reduced to aggression and hostility - the animalistic coding of his character was off the charts for me - to the point that Sam and John thought he needed "coaching". It made me want to throw up.

And I HATED John, hated him so much to the point of being repulsed by him. John and Rodney are the characters that most often act like the POV, the focus through which the viewer sees the universe, and John was... what he was doing and saying in this episode. Gah. This may very well be the breaking point for me when it comes to SGA I am so upset.

sorry for the word vomit. I should just stop talking about Midway.

[sholio]

Yeah, I've definitely hit that point on Supernatural; I don't know if you watch that one, but it's done it to me TWICE this season, once with race, once with gender, and it's gotten to the point where I just don't trust that show at all. It's lovely when it's cute and I can squee with it, but I'm kinda "meh, what else is on?" about new episodes.

Why this episode didn't strike me that way, I don't know, but SGA still seems to have a lot of handwavey-ness left in it for me. I can definitely see why someone would stop watching on the basis of this episode, and I'm not going to try to defend it to you. It just didn't do that to me.

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

I didn't really have that big a problem with the fight. As you said, it was in character for both of them - and I can imagine that for both it was rare to find someone that was as good at fighting as the other...particularly for Ronon as his usual sparring partner is now doing some very different exercise. So from that POV it makes prefect sense. That said, I think the best part for me was how everyone was watching it - and all the betting that was going on in the background.

From a character standpoint, what I had problems with was the whole idea that Ronon needed Teal'c to coach him...and that Teal'c was able to get Ronon to lose his cool as quickly as he did. That just does not happen. Ronon might be a little quick to pull out his gun but he doesn't do out of anger. It is when he pegs you as a threat to either him or his team that he gets into that "shoot first ask questions later" mode. That was what I had the problem with. That whole scene in the mess hall struck me as out of character for Ronon...the fight did not.

And I do agree that it is problematic that main actors of color are all playing the "alien" role. I mean right now we do have Ellis and that is a step in the right direction, but I would like to see more of that. It's not that difficult guys.

[sholio]

I think they did a poor job of setting it up. It was obvious even to me on my first watch-through, when I was deep in my land o'squee, that they wanted to put Ronon and Teal'c in the same episode so they could do the fanboy, "my alien can take your alien" match-up, and the plot was made to serve that. They could have done much better at making it make sense, as opposed to "Hey! We have a big alien too! Here!" Which, just ... *sigh*.

I happen to have a gigantic kink for "rivals who hate each other and have to work together and find common ground". That plot will slay me dead, every time. The fact that this one happens to take place with two characters I adore is enough to make me forgive one hell of a lot, because I get one of my favorite plots ever and I get it with characters I have an existing connection to. But there is a lot of "WTF?" in, well, the whole Ronon vs. Teal'c thing and everything that goes along with that.

[poisontaster]

I put up my own post about it and it was largely all squee, as well. And it's not that I don't see (and even comment) on racial aspects in the ep, but that particular part of the ep didn't bother me and not just because it REALLY hit my fandom buttons too.

I mean, I do see it as a systematic problem in the world TPTB set up. and the skanky race issues inherent in the SG universe as a whole, but on a character level, I honestly don't believe that Ronon, at least, is the kind of person who trusts people he hasn't seen or tested in combat. And I think Teal'c understood that about Ronon.

So while I have problems with Mallozzi & Co and their representations of race/Other, this just happened to not be one of them.

[sholio]

I just went over to read your post and see what you had to say. And, yeah -- pretty much my thoughts on the episode, too! Now with 50% more squee! :D

The thing is ... I think we'd be doing ourselves and fandom a terrible disservice if we glossed over these issues and didn't mention them, or tried to pretend they don't exist. They DO exist and they NEED to be brought out into the light and mulled over and brought to everyone's attention. I'm not holding my breath for the current crop of TV writers to catch a clue, exactly, but the next generation needs to -- along with all the fanfic writers and the aspiring pro novelists in the fandom discussions. So, yes ... these sorts of discussions need to be had.

But at the same time, I fanned on the episode like a mad fanning thing, and as you said in the comment above, most of the problems that I had with it are systematic problems endemic to the world, and not exactly specific to the episode itself. I don't think that people who HAD those specific problems with the episode are misguided or wrong, but it didn't ping me that way, for the most part. As a fan, I pretty much threw myself into the episode with squeeful abandon, and found it rewarding. I feel vaguely guilty for saying this, but I want more episodes like this one!

[(Anonymous)]

I loved 'Old Soldiers Die Hard'. I still love it whenever I re-read it (three times so far).

Hah.

:)

[sholio]

Well, thank you! :D And thank you for dropping by to say so. :)