sholio | OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

I can't believe that I just spent three hours reading all 400+ comments at John Scalzi's blog entry on the Organization for Transformative Works (and there are probably a lot more comments now, but I WILL NOT READ THEM because I have to sleep at some point).

It was actually a remarkably civil, reasonable and pleasant discussion. Or maybe I've just been unlucky enough to get sucked into exceedingly unpleasant discussions in my earlier fannish existence, when the topic of fanfic came up between fanfic people and pro writer people.

I actually created this fan journal back in '04 in large part because a lot of the readership of my original journal,

glacierdust, had been involved in those discussions, and a few of the people who knew me in real life (who I still wanted to stay on good terms with) were vehemently anti-fanfic. I didn't use my glacierdust journal for my fanning because I didn't want to get into a fight every time I posted something fanfic-positive. Looking back on it, I think I might have been unreasonably sensitive on the topic; still, there had been some nasty fights on the comics message board where I used to be (and technically still am) a co-moderator, to the point where the other mod and I actually banned the topic of fanfic completely, because people couldn't discuss it in a civil manner.

It made me happy to find everyone (well, almost everyone) on Scalzi's board discussing the topic like reasonable adults. It also made me happy to see the fanfic side being represented by a lot of articulate, smart, well-spoken people, and most (not all, but most) of the WTF-ery happening on the "anti-fanfic" side.

One of these days, I want to make a long thinky post about fanfic vs. original writing, and my relationship to both -- the changes my opinions on both have gone through over the years, the ways I've shuffled back and forth between the two of them until coming to the rewarding balance that I have now (which may change again in the future), the way that I feel they complement each other rather than being in opposition. But right now, I'm sleepy and I have the last 50 pages of Temeraire book 3 to finish, so I think I'll go do that instead.

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Gee

derry667, you really need to learn not to hold back. Tell us how you really feel. Not that I don't disagree with you. So, jumping in the foxhole right next to you.

Back during the uproar about the HP porn on LJ some people saying that the (fanfic/fanart) community should be able to police itself. Which would be all well in good - except for the fact as you said if you say something makes you uncomfortable it is on you...so in effect there are no "community standards" because there is a such a strong "chilling effect" when it comes to speaking out about erotic art and/or fic.

Back during the uproar about the HP porn on LJ some people saying that the (fanfic/fanart) community should be able to police itself.

Yes, as you say, it's a fine idea in principle, but with not "standards" to work with how do you "police" it? And who guards the guards, anyway?

So far, the only attempts that I've seen at policing what may and may not be used in fanworks are attempts to stop people using other fans work in their own creations.

"Clip theft" is the one that springs to mind. I kinda understand those who object to long edited sequences being taken - but there are many who object to someone even cropping out single clips or even pics out of a vid. Some used to complain because they had to rip it from the DVD themselves and so others shouldn't get the benefit without "doing all the hard work" and/or spending the money the original vidder did. I've seen witch hunts and "public shamings" over this issue - even done to those who made the transgression in ignorance because they didn't know it was such a "sin" to "steal from another fan" - who'd already stolen it from the original source, really. I must admit that rabid anti-clip theft zealotry flabbergasts me.

I've also seen some fanfic writers get absolutely rabid when another writer used one of their OCs in a fic. I've seen one fic writer who lost no time at all in killing off such an OC in a short fic a day or so after she found out - because the OC had now been "tainted" and she could never use said OC in a story again without "feeling sick".

Did I say something about histrionic drama queens?

I've also seen some fanfic writers get absolutely rabid when another writer used one of their OCs in a fic. I've seen one fic writer who lost no time at all in killing off such an OC in a short fic a day or so after she found out - because the OC had now been "tainted" and she could never use said OC in a story again without "feeling sick".

There are many things I love about fannish subculture, but if there is one single thing I HATE, it's this (and the rabid anti-cliptheft mentality, as well).

You mentioned below that what really ticks you off is people who don't think. I can certainly understand that, but I think my gigantic, "makes me so mad I could explode" button is HYPOCRISY.

And any fan who makes fanworks and doesn't give other fans tacit permission to reuse and rework them is a gigantic hypocrite. Wanting CREDIT is entirely fine. We always credit our canon source material in fandom, never trying to pass it off as our original creation. (To do otherwise would be plagiarism.) And since fanworks are much more obscure, credit would be even more important. It's really obvious that Average Fan didn't create John Sheppard, but much less obvious that she didn't create Mary Lou the OC.

But it still makes me want to SPIT NAILS every time I see a disclaimer on a piece of fanwork that "I don't own anything except Mary Lou, she's mine and please don't re-use her" or "This icon is not a base; don't add your own text" or "My fanart may not be used for icon-making". If that's how you feel, then WTF are you doing in FANDOM? How in the world do you justify that YOU can create unauthorized fanwork based on someone else's words and images, but forbid others to do the same with yours? *seethes*

And yeah, it did tick me off to see the number of fan people in the Scalzi thread who were bending over backwards trying to come up with justifications for that aspect of fannish mentality while still insisting that THEY have the right to do as they will with the canon source material. Sometimes I can see why the outside world thinks we're a bunch of idiots.

The one positive light is that I think it's relaxing a teeny, tiny bit, at least on the fanfic end. As far as I can tell, most of the art and vid people are still as crazy about it as they ever were. But SGA/SG1 fandom has a couple of very outspoken fanfic BNFs who believe that the "free marketplace of ideas" doesn't just extend to published works, and who have actually worked towards that, starting "remix" ficathons for example (the most recent of which I participated in, and had a great time). At

sheppard_hc a few months ago, I suggested a "tag each other's stories" challenge that went over wonderfully well; I was a little disheartened to see how many people put strings and conditions on how their stories could be reworked, but lots of people opted in and participated, and that made me happy. That's what I want fannish subculture to be like, not a place where people expect to be able to tromp on the source material with hobnailed boots but want their own special snowflakeness to be respected.

Edited 2007-12-17 19:32 (UTC)

How in the world do you justify that YOU can create unauthorized fanwork based on someone else's words and images, but forbid others to do the same with yours? *seethes*

I wonder if a big part of it is that people don't think about the work that goes into producing their favorite shows/books/movies. People spend so much time talking about the characters that they sometimes forget that the characters aren't real and are the product of someone else hard work. (the writers, the actors and the directors)

I mean look at the people who say the writers of Atlantis don't know the characters. That the fans know the characters so much better then people who created them in the first place. Or the people at cons who ask the actors about plot points or lines of dialog that would be better asked of the writers. It is almost as though some think that they actors are making up their own lines, or that events are really happening and there just happens to be the cameras there to film it.

But I also think there is a lot of "us" (fanfic writers and fandom) versus "them" (the producers/writers) And many fall into the old in-group vs out-group type of thinking. So while it OK to steal from, insult, make fun those on the outside it is almost inexcusable to do the same to people on the inside. Not that this justifies the mentality, it does explain it.

Yeah, absolutely, on the "us and them" mentality. Every so often you'll see a round of BNF-bashing, with people complaining that BNFs haven't really earned their celebrity status, they're just regular folks. And while on one level they're right, it's equally true of the pedestal upon which we put the actors and writers that we admire. I mean, it's not that they don't deserve acclaim, but they're still "just folks" and I think fans tend to forget that.

True, but with BNFs I think there is some of the "why them and not me" going on. There is not much of that going with the actors and writers. And I don't have problem with that idea. I am not saying that we should put them on pedestals or say that we can steal from them but not other fans,
but I think we do need to remember that for most of them (the writers and actors) this is work...how they make their living.

Very true on the, as it were, "professional" jealousy between fans, the "why her and not me?" issue. However, BNFs, for the most part, earn their celebrity status essentially in the same way that pro writers get famous: by writing stories that are *good*, or at least popular. This is why the complaints about BNF-dom have always struck me as poorly thought out, at the very least, coming from a bunch of people whose entire social activity revolves around fanning on the celebrity status of pro entertainers. I'm not saying we shouldn't respect those who do this full time, because we should; it's just that BNF celebrity-dom and pro writer celebrity-dom are pretty similar in function even though fans object to one and not the other. I think it's inevitable in ANY group of people that some are going to become celebrities; it's just how human social interaction works.

(Of course, I'm not a BNF so what do I know. *g*)

Of course, I'm not a BNF

Says you! I suspect there aren't many SGA genfic readers who don't know your work. ;-P

Ha! Prove it. ;-P

However, even if that's true (which I'm not really convinced it is) there is a quote I once read, can't remember where, having to do with having extremely limited fame: "... like being appointed the Poet Laureate of Illinois." Even if I do manage to achieve poet laureate of Illinois standing in this fandom, I promise I won't let it go to my head. *g*

I am not saying BNF don't earn their celebrity status. But I do think it is more then just writing good stories. Writing for popular pairings for one. Let's face it, in SGA fandom if you aren't writing slash (McShep to be precise) it is really hard to become a BNF for the fandom at large (at least with regards to fanfic fandom). Now is that fair? No, not really, but than when is life fair?

I don't have a problem with most BNFs, and the ones I do, it is not that I don't think they deserve their status. It is that I don't like them as people. Being a BNF does not automatically make someone a nice person (or a jerk.)

And as Derry said, I think you are close to a BNF as you can get in SGA and be a Gen writer.

You mentioned below that what really ticks you off is people who don't think. I can certainly understand that, but I think my gigantic, "makes me so mad I could explode" button is HYPOCRISY.

Not so long ago, I would have probably listed hypocrisy as my number one peeve and it still annoys the crap out of me. But now I do think that a lot of hypocrisy is based on a refusal to see how what you are complaining about actually is the same as your own actions.

People forgetting to think before they say or do something, doesn't get my goat so much. That would actually be quite hypocritical of me because I've lost count of the number I've put my mouth into gear before I've engaged the brain. No, what really ticks me off is when people stubbornly refuse to even attempt to think about the issues and just parrot slogans they've heard instead. I really don't mind people disagreeing with me, but I prefer arguments where both sides really look at what the other is saying and argue each point on its merits - as opposed to jingoist slogan-shouting, mud-slinging, etc.

But yeah, those "don't *STEAL* my fannish stuff" example that you cited all tick me off too. I'm defintely more of the what's good for the goose is good for the gander philosophy.

That's what I want fannish subculture to be like, not a place where people expect to be able to tromp on the source material with hobnailed boots but want their own special snowflakeness to be respected.

Amen, sister! ;-)

Innnnnnteresting ... you know, I think it's possible that our position is fundamentally similar, as far as the sorts of things that tick us off; it's just that the rationale is different. I think you're absolutely right that most hypocrisy is essentially a case of not thinking -- a calculated refusal to think about the other person's point of view. A thoughtful, informed hypocrite is pretty much impossible. But willful blindness all by itself doesn't bother me nearly so much as it does when it manifests itself as hypocrisy; it's more of an annoyance and a frustration than something that provokes my "Aaargh! Idiots! Attack!" response.

But willful blindness all by itself doesn't bother me nearly so much as it does when it manifests itself as hypocrisy; it's more of an annoyance and a frustration than something that provokes my "Aaargh! Idiots! Attack!" response.

Yeah, I suppose when it's hypocrisy as well as refusal to think, that's when it REALLY boils my blood. And yes I find the mindless parroting of fandom slogans "they're SO doing it", "writing is not the same as doing it", etc just annoying and frustrating. I'm not inclined to attack coz there's absolutely no point in attacking someone who refuses to open their mind to the arguments. You just get more of the annoying slogans chucked back at you.

On the other hand, I love debating things with people who really do hold different views from me and are prepared to genuinely debate them. We might not change each others opinions, but just the intellectual exercise is heaps of fun for me.

Well I have seen some based attempts on real issues (such as some people being upset about interracial relationship being listed as a kink)but for the most part it seems to be anything is OK - until it offends me and then it needs to stopped.

I hadn't heard that much about the "clip theft" thing. I mean I do know that it is considered wrong to steal sequences - but I hadn't realized that one shouldn't even take a signal clip or make a vidcap. That is taking things to far...

such as some people being upset about interracial relationship being listed as a kink

Well, since my parents were an interracial couple, that's a bit confronting for me. Then again, I suppose I'm fairly thick-skinned about it and consider that it's the people who consider it a kink that have a problem and not me or my parents.

but for the most part it seems to be anything is OK - until it offends me and then it needs to stopped.

Isn't it always the way? Don't you dare inhibit me, but how dare you do something that offends me! I'm not inhibiting you. You're just WRONG!

I think that particular round of fannish feather-ruffling was a terminology issue -- over using the (outdated and offensive) word miscegenation to describe that sort of relationship. Although it kind of spiraled out from there...

but for the most part it seems to be anything is OK - until it offends me and then it needs to stopped.

And yeah, that's the way it seems to go, isn't it? One thing I find interesting about following those sorts of things is how the same people end up on different sides of different conflicts ... they're all about the "anything is okay" until it's their own sacred cow getting speared.

There was some debate over the term, but I also saw some posts where people were offended that by the idea that interracial pairing such as Dean/Luna could be put in the same category as Harry/Dobby.

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OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

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