sholio | OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

OTW and fanfic and Scalzi and stuff

I can't believe that I just spent three hours reading all 400+ comments at John Scalzi's blog entry on the Organization for Transformative Works (and there are probably a lot more comments now, but I WILL NOT READ THEM because I have to sleep at some point).

It was actually a remarkably civil, reasonable and pleasant discussion. Or maybe I've just been unlucky enough to get sucked into exceedingly unpleasant discussions in my earlier fannish existence, when the topic of fanfic came up between fanfic people and pro writer people.

I actually created this fan journal back in '04 in large part because a lot of the readership of my original journal,

glacierdust, had been involved in those discussions, and a few of the people who knew me in real life (who I still wanted to stay on good terms with) were vehemently anti-fanfic. I didn't use my glacierdust journal for my fanning because I didn't want to get into a fight every time I posted something fanfic-positive. Looking back on it, I think I might have been unreasonably sensitive on the topic; still, there had been some nasty fights on the comics message board where I used to be (and technically still am) a co-moderator, to the point where the other mod and I actually banned the topic of fanfic completely, because people couldn't discuss it in a civil manner.

It made me happy to find everyone (well, almost everyone) on Scalzi's board discussing the topic like reasonable adults. It also made me happy to see the fanfic side being represented by a lot of articulate, smart, well-spoken people, and most (not all, but most) of the WTF-ery happening on the "anti-fanfic" side.

One of these days, I want to make a long thinky post about fanfic vs. original writing, and my relationship to both -- the changes my opinions on both have gone through over the years, the ways I've shuffled back and forth between the two of them until coming to the rewarding balance that I have now (which may change again in the future), the way that I feel they complement each other rather than being in opposition. But right now, I'm sleepy and I have the last 50 pages of Temeraire book 3 to finish, so I think I'll go do that instead.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Well, I'm pro-fanfic. I enjoy reading it and occasionally writing it. Not exactly hold-the-front-page news, but there you go.

I think I've been "writing it in my head" ever since I started watching TV and having book read to me as a very small child. My imagination didn't stop working once the story was told and wanted to take it elsewhere. In some ways, I think I saw it as roughly akin to the make believe games kids play - except that instead of acting them out with other kids, they sorta played out in my head. I wrote the stories down when I got older and read them to my friends. It was a surprise to find that it actually had a name (because I didn't come across the term fanfic until I discovered the internet).

I tend to avoid debates about whether fanfic is a good thing or not. I don't think I'm going to get anything out of them. I try to remember what authors don't want fanfic written about their work, but I've never come across any whose work I actually want to write about who have voiced an objection. I don't think I'd write it if the original author objected.

I've read some of the arguments about why fanfic might be considered wrong or stupid or even inferior to original fic and have found none that sway me.

Of course, there is SOME fanfic out there that *IS* stupid and/or written about subjects that make me very uncomfortable from a moral perspective (ie about my personal "squicks") - probably a lot of such fanfic exists, to tell truth. But the same can be said about published original fiction, TV shows, movies and other media. As long as "fanfic" doesn't step beyond its non-profit and source-acknowledging stance, then I personally have no moral problems with endorsing it.

And I look around published literature and wonder where to draw the line in calling something "fanfic". I've read a kinda dark and twisted short story which is a sequel to Jane Austen's novel "Emma", written by one of my favourite mystery authors (Reginald Hill who writes the Dalziel & Pascoe novels). It really fulfills all the criteria for fanfic, but of course wasn't labelled as such. I used to have a fascinating anthology which was a set of short stories retelling HG Wells "War of Worlds" from the POV of various historical persons who would have been alive at that time - again, totally fulfills the criteria for fanfic. These were both examples of clever literary manipulations of previously published works and, honestly, that's what I think fanfic at its best is.

Of course, at less than its best it can be stupid, shallow, facile, annoying and/or offensive. But that's equally true of original fiction.

[/ramble]

PS - Didn't really read much of the article and I'm not really sure that the OTW represents "a step forward" for the legitimacy of fanfic.

And I need to go to bed now too.

One of these days, I want to make a long thinky post about fanfic vs. original writing

I'd like to read this.

- Helen

Loved your post and agree particularly with your comments on pro writings which meet the criteria for "fanfic" - it's surprising how much of that there is out there, and how popular it is with readers. My own favorite example concerning Jane Austen would be the series of books by Stephanie Barron (Being A Jane Austen Mystery - ie "Jane and the Barque of Frailty" which is the latest). These books meet not only the criteria for "fanfic" but also for "real person fic!" How derivative can you get and still be considered a "real" writer???? The answer to that is: do you get paid the big bucks for your derivative fiction based on either a book or a person?!

I don't consider Ms. Barron's books either a ripoff or an unsavory use of a real person in a made-up story. I consider her books a lot of fun to read - so much so that I've bought every one of them! She's just a darn good writer and I enjoy her work. If it were fanfic, though, or rps, i.e., if she wasn't paid for her stories, would she still be a "real" writer? I think so!

At any rate, thanks for sharing your ideas on this subject - they prod me to think, too, which I like, a lot! Love, mxm

Thanks for the link. The OP seems to making some every good points and does raise some of the issues that I am concerned about.

I too would love to hear (or rather read) your thoughts on fanfic. I have my own thoughts about it, which I may or may not post at some point as it would have more to do with the"just a hobby" thing I see pop up from time to time.

Yeah ... I think I'm a glutton for punishment or something. The thing is, most of my online social interaction prior to LJ was with non-fanfic people -- fannish in other ways, but not involved in the fanfic subculture and in some cases actively hostile towards it. So I ended up in a lot of these kinds of discussions; I wasn't very open about the extent of my involvement in fanfic (I don't think anybody knew that I'd written a couple of 100,000 word fanfic novels), but I made no secret of the fact that I read and enjoyed and occasionally wrote it.

The depth of vitriole that some "pro" writers direct against fanfic is just baffling to me. Scalzi himself is not that way (at least judging by this discussion). He's pissed me off in the past by equating fanfic with plagiarism, but as pro writers go, he seems to be pretty reasonable; he doesn't mind people writing fanfic of his books as long as nobody shows it to him, which is the de facto position of most fanfic-tolerant pro writers. However, I saw the same thing with some of the "anti-fanfic" commenters in that thread that I used to in those debates all those years ago -- their utter inflexibility, their equating of "legal" with "moral", their evangelical desire to extend their morals to everyone else.

Not that the fanfic people can't be equally evangelical at times. But essentially, I think the pro-fanfic position is a lot more defensible because all we really want is the recognition that what we do over here isn't hurting you over there. Knitters, gardeners, sports fans and stamp collectors don't have to defend their hobbies; why should our right to exist be a matter of controversy? (And of course, I could get started on the absurdity of condemning media fanfic as lacking in creativity when there are tons of celebrated "pro" fanfic like Wicked and Wide Sargasso Sea and The Mists of Avalon and Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead. But I'm preaching to the choir here!)

I'm kinda torn on OTW. I respect their goals and they've got some smart, dedicated people as the driving force behind the organization. (I've got a metric ton of respect for Novik in particular because, although she doesn't go around advertising her fannish identity, she's also quite open about the fact that she does write fanfic. It takes quite a lot of chutzpah for a best-selling writer to spearhead an organization like this one.) But since fanfic exists in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of space, it does make me nervous to have more attention drawn to it from the outside world. The thing is, fanfic is getting higher-profile whether we like it or not, and if we must get the recognition, it's nice to be getting it in the context of something like OTW rather than, say, LJ getting sued for a Harry/Snape/Dobby S&M pornstravaganza.

I ought to write it ... I've got a lot of thoughts on the subject, especially since I did the reverse of most people and moved from original writing to fanfic rather than the other way around.

I'd be interested to see what you had to say! Maybe I'll try to organize my thoughts into something resembling coherency later today. My thoughts on it change from time to time, although my fundamental belief in its right to exist doesn't change and probably never will.

Yes, the "fanfic is derivative and therefore inferior!" argument has always struck me as completely ridiculous because, first off, there's nothing written in any genre that doesn't draw upon the work that's come before, and if that wasn't enough, I think anyone can come up with dozens of examples of "pro" fanfic -- some of which are noted in my comment below, but seriously, I think anyone who reads has encountered at least one and probably a lot of books that are based upon famous novels, plays, myths, religious texts or historical figures.

But since fanfic exists in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of space, it does make me nervous to have more attention drawn to it from the outside world. The thing is, fanfic is getting higher-profile whether we like it or not, and if we must get the recognition, it's nice to be getting it in the context of something like OTW rather than, say, LJ getting sued for a Harry/Snape/Dobby S&M pornstravaganza.

Yeah. In some ways, I suppose I have some problem with people trying to drawn fanfic into the light and make it a "respectable" and hence legal endeavour - because it was okay when we were all doing something "not exactly legal, but causing no harm so no one bothered us".

I went back and reread the article in the cool light of day (as opposed to the brain-fried skip-reading that I did last night) and I do understand the points that this Scalzi dude is making. In fact, I don't disagree with much (if anything) he says in this particular article.

There *is* a worry that if fanfic writers suddenly feel legally entitled to do what they do, then the gloves will come off and an all out battle for "draconian" intellectual property rights will ensue. We'll lose our "but they never specifically said that we can't" excuse.

And that worries me because I do lean on that excuse more from a moral standpoint than a legal standpoint. A lot of the stuff I list under my personal "squicks", I find iffy paritally because I feel that it in some ways disrespects the creators (writers and actors). I feel that if I couldn't admit to them that I'd written/vidded/iconed/whatevered it with a clear conscience, then that extends beyond where I'm prepared to go as a fan. And I suppose that I take solace in the fact that for most of the areas that I've been fannish about, they do profess the "turn a blind eye" philosophy - and I'm just not throwing my fannish works in their faces rather than hiding them away in a secret corner. Hmmm... Am I making any sense with that argument.

I've got a metric ton of respect for Novik in particular because, although she doesn't go around advertising her fannish identity, she's also quite open about the fact that she does write fanfic. It takes quite a lot of chutzpah for a best-selling writer to spearhead an organization like this one.

Agreed. I do applaud her ideals. I'm just a little concerned about the fallout in the Real World (which is where I think Scalzi seems to be coming from in this article). But where Novik may be just trying to give fanfic a little more credibility, there is a very real danger that some fanficcers with go "power mad" from even small amounts of entitlement. Scalzi in the article actually mentioned the chick who tried to sell her Star Wars fanfic novel on Amazon and couldn't seem to see why a) Lucasfilm and b) the fanfic community would object.

*deep breath*

*puts on flame-repellant asbestos overcoat*

I hate to say it, but there are a lot of fanfic writers out there who are rabidly histrionic drama queens with hugely overinflated senses of fannish entitlement. Anyone questioning or even not 100% approving of their work and they hit back with what they think their "rights" are and "don't you repress me" and "you're just inhibited" or whatever. They really have no sense of responsiblity or self-control - and they don't think they should have. I can almost understand it in teenagers, but the same applies to people whose children are my age or older! Which is when they are tossed into the "you're just an idiot who doesn't want to really think at all" basket as far as I'm concerned.

So if those kind of people can suddenly quote a respectable author or organisation and twist it to say that they can do basically anything as long as it's in a fannish context and maybe even try to sell it because it's legitimate art... Well, I actually don't think that's a good thing.

I do think fanfic should have limitations - legal and moral ones. The legal will, of course, be set by others. The moral will always be a case of each individual setting them for themselves. I suppose I don't want the legal ones to be set too narrowly nor the moral ones to be set too widely.

*jumps into a foxhole*

Edited 2007-12-17 01:52 (UTC)

Gee

derry667, you really need to learn not to hold back. Tell us how you really feel. Not that I don't disagree with you. So, jumping in the foxhole right next to you.

Back during the uproar about the HP porn on LJ some people saying that the (fanfic/fanart) community should be able to police itself. Which would be all well in good - except for the fact as you said if you say something makes you uncomfortable it is on you...so in effect there are no "community standards" because there is a such a strong "chilling effect" when it comes to speaking out about erotic art and/or fic.

Oooooh, don't remind me of the argument that article I wrote started. I had barely even begun writing for the organisation in question when that veritable flame war started on that board, and I almost quit the zine because of it. XD Seriously, I practically got an ulcer over it. I am far too empathic & sensitive for my own good. XD

Me, I try too limit my ficcing to venues where the franchise is either dead or I know for a fact that the creator okays it (even if the publisher might not *sough*). Happily, Buffy, Stargate, and Harry Potter all fit the latter criteria. ;) But I also tend to avoid the works of creators who are anti-fic, especially if they apporach it from a "I don't want you playing with my toys" standpoint (like I've heard that Robert Jordan was like) rather than a "I'm afraid of losing my livelihood" stance. The way I see it, if they don't want people to be inspired by their works and imagine new journeys for the characters, then they should keep 'em to themselves, ya know? It's like giving me my fave food when I'm starving and telling me I can only smell and look at it, not taste -- it's an act of cruelty. I don't always want to eat my own leg.

We have thousands of years of history of people taking stories and reimagining them from their own perspective: mythology and how it changes over time is undeniable proof of that. It's only within teh last century that we've tried to forbid the sharing of stories, and frankly? I find that to be unnatural. It's the nature of humanity to use common icons to communicate -- Harry and Buffy are no less mythological to us now than Hercules or Moses. And it's not like I actively seek the stories -- they pour into my mind like a flood: either I disperse the "water" by sharing it or I drown ....

Oy, sorry for rambling (and preaching to the choir?)

because it was okay when we were all doing something "not exactly legal, but causing no harm so no one bothered us".

Right. Of course, the problem with that is that we are existing at the sufferance of the copyright holders, who can shut us down (or at least drive us underground) if they decide they don't like what we're doing.

On a purely practical level, though, the amount of tolerance that they have for us is high enough that it really doesn't matter if it's "legal" or "acceptable" or "legitimate" in any way. Fanfic was easy enough to find when I first started stumbling across it in 1997(?), and it's even easier to find now.

The main reason why I yearn for a little more "legitimacy" is because it's frustrating having to keep my fanfic persona separate from my real life persona. I always used to use my real name online until I started posting fanfic; my earliest fanfic was posted under my real name as well, but I switched to "Sholio" (a character from one of my original stories) because I didn't want my name coming up in Google searches attached to fanfic. I hate the idea that I have to keep being careful for fear of having publishers discover my fanfic. On the other hand, I've been wondering lately how much of a danger it really is. In years past, I've heard about a few fanfic writers who had to sign contracts promising not to post fanfic online or to take their fanfic down in order to get book publishing deals. I don't like that idea. But I know of enough people now who write fanfic and simultaneously publish novels (albeit under different noms de plume) that I'm a lot less worried about it than I used to be.

And I'm certainly not unhappy with how things are right now. Being able to post my fanfic and my original fiction at the same journal without worrying about negative effects on my writing career would be awesome. But it's more like the icing on the cake that I already have than the whole cake, if that makes any sense. I've already got a lot of freedom as a fanwriter and I would hate to lose some of that freedom because a small group of fans are seeking to gain rights we don't currently have. I'd say we have more to lose than to gain from raising our public profile, because at this point we seem to be thriving "under the radar" and I'm not sure how much is really to be gained anyway through a group of fanficcers seeking more widespread attention.

On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, I do think the attention is being focused on the fanfic community whether we want it or not. At least through OTW, it's mostly positive attention (at this point) as opposed to the sort of attention that we'd get if we ended up with a really skanky test case.

More to come in the next part...

Edited 2007-12-17 07:36 (UTC)

As for the matter of entitlement, that's a real toughie. While I HATE the idea that there are going to be people who take that newfound "legitimacy" and run with it, I think you're absolutely right that this people will exist. But they already exist, don't they? I think such people will ALWAYS be present but will ALSO always represent a small minority of fandom, and it isn't really fair to fandom as a whole to use those people as a baseline for what we should and shouldn't do.

And that worries me because I do lean on that excuse more from a moral standpoint than a legal standpoint. A lot of the stuff I list under my personal "squicks", I find iffy paritally because I feel that it in some ways disrespects the creators (writers and actors). I feel that if I couldn't admit to them that I'd written/vidded/iconed/whatevered it with a clear conscience, then that extends beyond where I'm prepared to go as a fan.

Heh. It shouldn't come as any great surprise that this is that this has always been a big part of my own approach to fanwork, as well -- I create what I do out of love for the source material, with a very strong awareness that I'm playing in someone else's sandbox, and the idea that the author or actors would be horrified to discover that I've written makes me sad. It feels very immoral -- sort of like the same kind of moral skankiness that I'd get from taking a friend's tale of being sexually abused as a child, that she/he told me in confidence, and writing a novel that's a thinly disguised version of it. Sure, you could do that, legally ... and people actually have done things like that. I don't even know if I'd condemn someone for doing it; I've read books that I knew were the author airing their family's dirty laundry in thinly fictionalized form. But would I ever do it? Probably not.

As you know, I've started reading slash in the last couple of years, but I'm still kind of conflicted about it, and I can't make myself read the sexually explicit parts; there's still a deeply guilty awareness that these are real people's bodies and likenesses being manipulated. Whether it's rational or not, I do feel guilty about the one sexually explicit fanfic that I've written so far (my SG-1 one), like I crossed a line I'd never have dreamed of crossing prior to a couple of years ago -- and I don't think I would have been able to write something similar for SGA, where my emotional investment, especially my investment in the actors, is a lot deeper. I can't even look at sexually explicit manips and fanart; the sense of invading someone's privacy is too strong. It's not nearly as bad for me when the people are 100% fictional, especially if I know the author is okay with it (or isn't around anymore to be affected by it). For example, for Yuletide I wrote slash, by request, in a book fandom in which the author is dead, and I really didn't feel guilty about it at all.

I think it's kind of an arbitrary line, because I know that for some people, ANY fanfic is the same kind of invasion of privacy that I feel with the sexually explicit stuff. I really don't have any good, defensible basis for saying, "Yes, I feel that my novel-length story in which I break Sheppard's leg and kill off his friends is perfectly fine, but this one over here where he's tied up and fisted by Kolya creeps me out completely." Since I can't defend my own dividing line between "okay" and "not okay" in fic, I don't feel any urge at all to police other people's fic ... kind of like, I have a very vanilla sex life, but the idea that there are people out there who like to be tied up and have hot candle wax dripped on their nipples is not at all threatening or offensive to me. It just is. I feel the same way about most of the fic that personally squicks me -- I don't really want to read it, but I don't object to its existence.

But I'd never want the actors to see it. During last year's YouTube video contest that Hewlett was judging, I found that I couldn't watch most of the videos -- it was just too horribly, stomach-twistingly embarrassing to know that these were being seen by the actor, especially the appallingly smarmy ones or those with slash subtext.

Ahem. Continuing.

On a purely theoretical level, I believe that once a story is written, it's out there to be made over and re-interpreted by other people. It's hard to think of anything a person could do with my stories that I'd really, truly hate. I'm just too easygoing about them; it might be a bit frustrating for someone to take one of my stories and rework it in a way that makes it painfully obvious that they utterly missed the point, but I don't think I'd be any more offended by that than by a review that utterly missed the point -- and I thought one of the BEST points that was made in the Scalzi discussion is that a writer has no control over COMMENTARY on their work, nor do they expect to. Your book, your labor of love, can be completely torn apart by a reviewer, it can be made the target of a terribly mean-spirited parody in Mad Magazine, it can be included on a list of the 100 Worst Books Ever Written (with accompanying snide commentary) and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Not only that, but only the most grasping and obnoxious control-freak of a writer would actually TRY to do something about it. (Occasionally you'll hear of a writer making personal attacks on a reviewer or something along those lines, but it's considered clearly aberrant behavior.) So expecting to have total control (or ANY control) over how your work is made into fanfic, even if the fic runs entirely counter to your own intentions, and yet at the same time magnanimously accepting the right of reviewers to tear your book to shreds, is a weird kind of hypocrisy.

So my general, blanket philosophy on fanfic is that a reader has the right to re-interpret it however they desire, just like a reviewer can write a scathing review that causes the book's sales to tank. But there are a lot of sorts of stories that I, personally, wouldn't write, and that I feel very uncomfortable reading.

And even though I think people SHOULD have the right to write (and say) whatever they want, even if I personally find it reprehensible (although, honestly, there's very little fanfic I find truly reprehensible), I also agree with you that there are quite a lot of people in fandom who are happy to hide behind a blanket of "but I'm not hurting anyone, I can do whatever I want and however this affects you is your own problem". That's childish. There is power in words, and it's an entirely different thing to own up to the power of your words and write them anyway, than to write whatever you want and excuse it by denying that it could possibly have any effect on anyone out in the real world. (The example that always comes to mind -- which I think you and I have discussed before -- is RPS with actors who have kids. Because it's outrageous to believe that the kids are NOT going to be Googling Daddy's name online and finding graphic sex scenes with Daddy fucking someone who isn't Mommy. And maybe you -- generic RPS writer -- are okay with that and feel it's worth it, which is entirely between you and your conscience, but avoiding the problem by denying that it has anything to do with you won't score you any points in my book.)

On the other hand (there's always another hand ...), in order to write ANYTHING you've got to own up to a certain amount of "risk" in the effects that your writing might have on other people. It might not be nearly as blatant as with RPS, but maybe my (hypothetical example) carefully written portrait of a girl who overcomes a sexually abusive childhood might be so "triggering" to someone who reads it that they'll commit suicide because of it. It's really wonderful and powerful and scary being a writer. Some people (Karl Marx, George Orwell, Moses) changed the world with nothing but words. Obviously we fanfic writers are never going to be in a situation like THAT! But it's still a responsibility to write -- and, at the same time, you can't be too paralyzed by worrying about the consequences of your writing to stop you from writing anything at all.

I think I stopped making sense at some point in that paragraph, which probably means this is a good time to stop commenting.

I'd forgotten that it was your article that prompted the Great Fanfic Flame War! Actually, though, I think that one was the second one we'd had, which was why Pam and I made the "no discussing of fanfic!" rule.

But I also tend to avoid the works of creators who are anti-fic, especially if they apporach it from a "I don't want you playing with my toys" standpoint (like I've heard that Robert Jordan was like) rather than a "I'm afraid of losing my livelihood" stance.

Yeah. I'm the same way. I don't see anything odd in that; there are other writers I won't read because I'm deeply offended by other aspects of their personal beliefs, as expressed in interviews, or their public personas. (Orson Scott Card comes to mind here ...) In my case, I'm not sure if it's even so much a desire not to give the writers my money, as it is simply not enjoying their books because I'm too acutely aware of whatever it was about them that turned me off in the first place.

And yes, you are preaching to the choir; I'm hugely supportive of people's right to make fanworks, and of the rich history that we have of stories being re-imagined and re-interpreted. At the same time, as mentioned above, I'm a little conflicted (well, actually a lot conflicted) when it comes to fanworks that I see as being invasive of a person's privacy or counter to the author's intentions for a work. It's not that I don't feel they have a right to exist or even enjoy them in some cases, but I feel a bit guilty and conflicted about it.

Back during the uproar about the HP porn on LJ some people saying that the (fanfic/fanart) community should be able to police itself.

Yes, as you say, it's a fine idea in principle, but with not "standards" to work with how do you "police" it? And who guards the guards, anyway?

So far, the only attempts that I've seen at policing what may and may not be used in fanworks are attempts to stop people using other fans work in their own creations.

"Clip theft" is the one that springs to mind. I kinda understand those who object to long edited sequences being taken - but there are many who object to someone even cropping out single clips or even pics out of a vid. Some used to complain because they had to rip it from the DVD themselves and so others shouldn't get the benefit without "doing all the hard work" and/or spending the money the original vidder did. I've seen witch hunts and "public shamings" over this issue - even done to those who made the transgression in ignorance because they didn't know it was such a "sin" to "steal from another fan" - who'd already stolen it from the original source, really. I must admit that rabid anti-clip theft zealotry flabbergasts me.

I've also seen some fanfic writers get absolutely rabid when another writer used one of their OCs in a fic. I've seen one fic writer who lost no time at all in killing off such an OC in a short fic a day or so after she found out - because the OC had now been "tainted" and she could never use said OC in a story again without "feeling sick".

Did I say something about histrionic drama queens?

These books meet not only the criteria for "fanfic" but also for "real person fic!" How derivative can you get and still be considered a "real" writer????

Yeah. I must admit that Real Person fanfic is one of my personal "not going there" areas. And yet, I love "biopic" novels or movies. I do think that it's not just whether the persons do or have existed or not - for me it's about what the purpose of the story is. If it's just an excuse to write porn or schmaltzy romance, I'm not interested. If it's a serious attempt to understand the motivations, thoughts and actions of a historical figure under certain circumstances, then I'm often fascinated.

The main reason why I yearn for a little more "legitimacy" is because it's frustrating having to keep my fanfic persona separate from my real life persona.

Yeah. I don't have that difficulty because I actually like keeping them separated - to the degree that I do. My family know I read and write fanfic - and it's never been an issue for them. They tease me about it from time to time in the same way that I tease them for some of their quirks. But there's tacit acceptance, even if they aren't really interested in the subject in general. My mum used to ask why didn't I write original stories that I could actually publish and get paid for, but has now more or less accepted that it doesn't interest me. I know that many other fanfic authors have dream of "turning pro" or already have, but that hasn't really been a goal for me.

I always used a pseudonym from the first time I started interacting on the internet. I think it was initially paranoia about what dangerous people could be out there and I didn't want to be identifiable to the scary psychos in any way. Now I've known people for years who refuse to believe that I have any name other than Derry. It's almost like having an alter ego - and I'm tragic enough to kinda get a kick out of that. ;-P

On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, I do think the attention is being focused on the fanfic community whether we want it or not. At least through OTW, it's mostly positive attention (at this point) as opposed to the sort of attention that we'd get if we ended up with a really skanky test case.

There definitely is that. And I'm not saying you're wrong, but when people try and control how the attention on them is focussed... well, the best laid schemes of mice and men gang aft agley. So, as I said, I applaud the ideals they are trying to uphold. I just worry about where it could go wrong in the execution.

I think such people will ALWAYS be present but will ALSO always represent a small minority of fandom, and it isn't really fair to fandom as a whole to use those people as a baseline for what we should and shouldn't do.

I know. I've just found that these people often form the vocal minority that many fandoms get judged by (*cough*SPN*cough*). It's not fair, but these empty vessels often do make the most sound - possibly because they thrive on that sort of attention, whereas the saner factions of fandom don't want to constantly thrust themselves into the limelight.

I feel the same way about most of the fic that personally squicks me -- I don't really want to read it, but I don't object to its existence.

I wish I could say that I was as completely open-minded, but I think that if I'm honest with myself, I do have some objections. It's not as if I object to the existence of fic that squicks me, but I do find myself disturbed by some of the "bandwagon mentality" of some fanfic trends - where people start getting into certain types of fic "coz it's HOT!" but never even stop to think about the implications of the stories are.

I've said it before, but it's the NOT THINKING involved that gets me. I hate the "herd mentality" and people justifying themselves and their fanworks by just throwing jingoistic slogans around. That just annoys me But that's a whole other rant (and one that I seem to keep returning to, from time to time).

On a purely theoretical level, I believe that once a story is written, it's out there to be made over and re-interpreted by other people.

Amen. It's still the original writer's story (ie no fan should claim the original source work to be their own), but once it's "out there", how it's interpreted and where it goes from there is largely up to the audience, rather than the original creator.

You put something out there - some "labour of love", as you say - and you are opening yourself up to criticism, rejection and misinterpretation. That's just the way the world is. It's the way the human race does things. You can't make your audience interpret what you write in the way you want to any more than you can control their thinking over any other issue. And IMHO you should NOT try to stop them expressing their opinion on the matter.

And IMHO someone should impress that upon the precious flowers of fanfic writing too. But then, I had some conversations with friends over the weekend about how fanfic reviews that aren't 100% positive and squeeful shouldn't be considered "flames". These were fellow Aussies and I sometimes wonder if we aren't a little more outspoken, both giving and expecting less quarter in the cut and thrust of an argument.

There is power in words, and it's an entirely different thing to own up to the power of your words and write them anyway, than to write whatever you want and excuse it by denying that it could possibly have any effect on anyone out in the real world.

Yes. Yes. YES! Stand up for what you write. OWN it. If you want to write something dark and/or controversial, do it, but also face up to the consequences. Don't pretend that it's "just your kink" and has no other ramifications. Don't abdicate responsibility. Don't bury your head in the sand about the implications of what you write. I've got no respect for that sort of attitude. If you've got your reasons for doing what you do and writing what you write, then STAND BY THOSE REASONS.

And if you don't have any reasons, well, then why are you doing it? It's a fair question.

Edited 2007-12-17 12:19 (UTC)

To tell you the truth, derry 667, I've actually written rps but never would publish it on the internet. However, that was a long time ago - several years, at any rate - and rps and rpf seems to have become very much a given on the net in the intervening years. I still don't think I'd publish my own rps, were I writing it now, but I don't think (anymore) that it really is so terribly intrusive and unethical as I once did (yet still wrote it!). I can't get into biopic novels or movies, though, for some reason.

It's my opinion that most celebrities don't read the rps about them or their significant others. So, what's the harm? When you consider the tabloids and how they intrude on celebs' lives, rpf and rps seems like a tiny drop in the ocean... Which is not to say that, if it's unethical and intrusive, even on a small scale, it's okay.... But I'm torn between thinking it's "harmless" and thinking it's "wrong" and I just can't get myself to come down on one side or the other completely, and make a judgment! For myself, yes: I wouldn't publish anything I wrote along those lines. For others, not so much...

Anyway, I'm still loving any post that makes me think. Thanks for sharing your views.

Love, mxm

I've also seen some fanfic writers get absolutely rabid when another writer used one of their OCs in a fic. I've seen one fic writer who lost no time at all in killing off such an OC in a short fic a day or so after she found out - because the OC had now been "tainted" and she could never use said OC in a story again without "feeling sick".

There are many things I love about fannish subculture, but if there is one single thing I HATE, it's this (and the rabid anti-cliptheft mentality, as well).

You mentioned below that what really ticks you off is people who don't think. I can certainly understand that, but I think my gigantic, "makes me so mad I could explode" button is HYPOCRISY.

And any fan who makes fanworks and doesn't give other fans tacit permission to reuse and rework them is a gigantic hypocrite. Wanting CREDIT is entirely fine. We always credit our canon source material in fandom, never trying to pass it off as our original creation. (To do otherwise would be plagiarism.) And since fanworks are much more obscure, credit would be even more important. It's really obvious that Average Fan didn't create John Sheppard, but much less obvious that she didn't create Mary Lou the OC.

But it still makes me want to SPIT NAILS every time I see a disclaimer on a piece of fanwork that "I don't own anything except Mary Lou, she's mine and please don't re-use her" or "This icon is not a base; don't add your own text" or "My fanart may not be used for icon-making". If that's how you feel, then WTF are you doing in FANDOM? How in the world do you justify that YOU can create unauthorized fanwork based on someone else's words and images, but forbid others to do the same with yours? *seethes*

And yeah, it did tick me off to see the number of fan people in the Scalzi thread who were bending over backwards trying to come up with justifications for that aspect of fannish mentality while still insisting that THEY have the right to do as they will with the canon source material. Sometimes I can see why the outside world thinks we're a bunch of idiots.

The one positive light is that I think it's relaxing a teeny, tiny bit, at least on the fanfic end. As far as I can tell, most of the art and vid people are still as crazy about it as they ever were. But SGA/SG1 fandom has a couple of very outspoken fanfic BNFs who believe that the "free marketplace of ideas" doesn't just extend to published works, and who have actually worked towards that, starting "remix" ficathons for example (the most recent of which I participated in, and had a great time). At

sheppard_hc a few months ago, I suggested a "tag each other's stories" challenge that went over wonderfully well; I was a little disheartened to see how many people put strings and conditions on how their stories could be reworked, but lots of people opted in and participated, and that made me happy. That's what I want fannish subculture to be like, not a place where people expect to be able to tromp on the source material with hobnailed boots but want their own special snowflakeness to be respected.

Edited 2007-12-17 19:32 (UTC)

Ironically, from what I've read, RPF actually has better standing from a legal position than fanfic does. The only law that RPF is possibly in violation of, is libel, and I believe one of the standards for libel is that you have to prove malicilious intent to damage a person's reputation, which isn't the case in RPF. Opinions that I've read seem to indicate that RPF could probably stand up to a legal challenge if it was ever issued one.

And yet it squicks the hell out of me. I think the only (amateur) RPF I've read and enjoyed involved dead people. Er, you know what I mean. Long-dead people.

RPS/RPF is one of those things that squicks me personally. But it doesn't actually squick me any worse than the tabloids do. I suppose that I am bothered by both of them on similar grounds (that it's invasive of people's privacy and feels kind of unethical to me) but I recognize their right to exist and would never crusade to shut them down or have it taken off the Internet -- if that makes any sense.

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