sholio | SGA 4x10: This Mortal Coil

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episode reactions:sga

SGA 4x10: This Mortal Coil

... hmmm.

Main thought upon finishing the episode ... THAT'S the mid-season cliffhanger? Not much of one, really. There are lots of Replicator ships out there. Uh ... we knew that already! I don't think I've been really, truly disappointed in an SGA cliffhanger before, but this one -- uh. Yeah. I was expecting more. Lots more.

Okay. The good (probably not everything squeeful, and I'm sure I'll remember more later, but all that's coming to mind at the moment) :

- Rodney's scene with Radek at the end ... and how he thanks Radek for worrying about him. Awww! Coming right on the heels of his little speech about Carson and Elizabeth, it was just a nice reminder that he really is learning from his mistakes and trying to be a better friend.

- THEY HAVE A READING LIBRARY! I love it. And they don't really have to explain it, because it's Atlantis and they're in another galaxy and it's perfectly obvious that this is the equivalent of the shelf in the college dorm (at least, my dorm had one) where everyone brings their old paperbacks and leaves them for someone else -- or, in this case, probably lots of issues of old scientific journals and dog-eared copies of Gun&Ammo and Tom Clancy novels, but still! They have one! In canon! *loves*

- The team's interactions with their doubles -- the two Rodneys going into "argue about science" mode, the two Sheppards looking exasperated, and especially the two Ronon-and-Teyla combos coming upon each other while bitching about their doubles in the woods. HEEEEEEEE. (And they remembered to cover up Ronon's tattoo! Go them!)

- Continuity with past episodes. Lots of it! They remembered the retrovirus! And they got the Season 3 uniforms right (a detail I didn't pick up on until the "real" team showed up, incidentally). And they mentioned Carson, and Rodney's still having trouble dealing with it. All in all, good job on the continuity.

- Cool f/x as Atlantis blows up. And the jumper catching a ride into hyperspace. Nice!

- Elizabeth. Sadly, she's always been kind of low on my main character squee list, although it's mostly a process-of-elimination thing because the rest of them make me squee so hard. I've always adored Torri, but Elizabeth, not so much. Which makes it very sad that she actually had to leave the show to really make me appreciate her -- her quiet dignity, her self-possession, her rapport with John. I loved seeing her here. I just wish she'd had a better plot. Which brings me to ...

The bad:

- Oh heavens, THE PLOT. About five minutes into the episode, I turned to my partner and said, "They're all Replicators." Hey, I've seen too much SG-1 for that particular twist to still be that much of a twist. But it's really a twist with lots of potential ... except ... AAARGH.

SO. MUCH. TALKING. You'd think I'd enjoy that they spent a bunch of time on dialogue rather than explosions, and I would ... if the dialogue hadn't been so wooden. The middle 20 minutes of the episode was basically just exposition, and clunky exposition. I gotta hand it to the cast, they were all doing the best they could with what they had to work with (especially Jewel Staite, poor thing) but ... OH. They were trying, they really were, but every other line was just stiff and LAME. (And why did we need to see RepliLiz telling the real Sheppard & McKay the whole story AGAIN when we'd just seen it a few minutes before? Give me more real character interaction instead of people standing around telling their life stories, please!)

The switch from inside the cell with Our Replicated Heroes to the shot of the ship lowering over the city broke the fourth wall utterly because up to that point, we'd been in the characters' POV, and then we get this shot of something they cannot possibly see and do not know about yet, and ... GAH! (It especially bugged me, and I noticed it in specific, because in some episodes -- Doppelganger comes to mind here -- the show is fantastically good about staying in the viewpoint characters' POV and showing only what they could see. But not here.)

And then the replay of Carter's vision, practically shot-for-shot. Which I saw coming a mile away. SO PREDICTABLE! HELP! (Which also makes me wonder why the heck the Seer would have shown her a vision that had nothing whatsoever to do with Atlantis? She wasn't even there! She didn't even have a Replicator clone there! It's like, "Hi, I'm a fortune teller, here's a vision of something that has nothing whatsoever to do with you. Have a nice day!" WTF?)

And RepliKeller's painfully predictable death scene just annoyed me. Well, it annoyed me while also making me feel for her, because it's Jewel and Torri, and they're really good. But the utter contrived-ness of it kinda ticked me off. And DO NOT GET ME STARTED on how easily they wrote off the RepliTeam at the end. RepliTeam: "Hey, you guys are real and we're not**, so we're going to go die so you can live." RealTeam: "Sure! Seeya, suckers!"

**despite being living human beings, a point which we've just spent most of the show making. But there's that Earth Logic again.

This DROVE ME NUTS. It drove me nuts because it was just sloppy storytelling, a really easy and predictable way of writing out a potentially sticky plot point. And it drove me doubly nuts because it doesn't say a whole lot about our team, at least not a whole lot that's good, that they're willing to let five people (including the last living vestige of Elizabeth in the galaxy) die so that they can escape. And it drove me TRIPLY nuts because RepliTeam are supposed to be Our Heroes through and through (you know, stubborn? persistent? never-say-die?) and yet they're all five willing to throw away their very real lives to let the "real" team get away? Plus, quadruply nuts, because ... SO MANY INTERESTING FANTASY POSSIBILITIES (re: Jack's teenage clone on SG-1) with the RepliTeam making a new life for themselves somewhere else, thrown away on a stupid plot contrivance.

And, yeah, I am well aware that the Replicator goon squad were wielding stunners, which means we might see the RepliTeam in the second half of this alleged "two-parter" (Jan. 4! Yay! I am so there!). But this is where this episode wrapped up, and that final scene with the crashed jumper is all we have to work with right now, and I am ANNOYED.

(And, on a purely personal matter, I am ALSO annoyed because we still haven't seen Teyla tell her team about her pregnancy yet, and she is so obviously pregnant by this point that I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it really IS going to happen off camera and cheat us of that scene. No! Please!)

Okay, ranting over. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. *g*

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I posted my episode notes (http://kimberlyfdr.livejournal.com/297058.html) right after the ep aired. The scene with Radek and Rodney at the end made me cry!

It was a sweet scene. I love my prickly little Rodney!

For once I was not so bothered by the problems!

They were going to leave the team's point of view anyway, so the shot of the RepliShip didn't bother me--although it might have been more interesting to do the whole episode, until the closing scene, from the RepliTeam's point of view. To me it didn't break the fourth wall at all. I also didn't think the vision was a problem: the Seer saw the Wraith coming to his planet, though he didn't actually see them when they came; he and his people were hiding. I wouldn't say it had nothing to do with Sam or Atlantis.

Yes, I didn't think the team should die--but then again, I'm not positive they did all die. The Replicators might well have kept them alive for study. I didn't think RepliKeller should die either. I wondered why all five needed to be on the Jumper, but then I remembered that they show up as human life signs; the Replicators no doubt scanned the Jumper before they shot it down to be certain they were all on board.

Off to post my own review....

I think it's funny how different people react differently, since I've been fairly satisfied with the plots of the last few episodes (which bothered you) but this one really bothered me!

It bothers me more the more I think about it, too, because the hacked-in explanation for the lack of Carson (using Elizabeth's memories to update the scenario) doesn't really work if the RepliTeam are created using the memories from the scans they did of the team in Progeny. They had to have updated their memories using Elizabeth's memories (judging from the RepliTeam's lack of confusion about the absence of Carson and Elizabeth-in-charge from "their" Atlantis) and that had to have caused some really weird mental conflicts. Surely someone would have noticed that their memories post-Progeny were all screwed up! There's fun fic potential in that, but it didn't make so much sense in the episode.

I did like how they remembered to cover up RepliRonon's tattoo, though.

Ah, but they've got an out for any cognitive dissonance! We know this isn't the first or even second time they've tried the experiment; RepliKeller learns each time the scenario runs and fixes the problems when she reprograms their memories each time. Goodness knows how many times she ran it before she managed to get them to last a full week before they figured it out.

It may not be what you wanted, but I see a lot of potential fic in the previous runs, where the team may have noticed there were inconsistencies in their memories. Yes, they did update from Elizabeth's real memories. I have wondered who the RepliTeam thought was running the station without her: the dynamic duo of Sheppard and McKay? It looked like John was actually in charge.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that John was in charge in the fake Atlantis.

I'm actually quite enthused about the possibilities of the previous experiments -- maybe there are more escaped failures running around! And come to think of it, you're quite right that they would have had time to fix flaws in their programs that would have been evident with the earlier RepliTeams.

Yes! Write some fic from this episode, please! :-)

I am well aware that the Replicator goon squad were wielding stunners

Were they? I thought those were anti-Replicator guns--which wouldn't kill this team, just shut down their ability to heal almost instantaneously.

Oops! You could be right. I just saw the glow and thought "stunner" but I guess it doesn't really make any sense for the Replicators to have stunners.

On the other hand, if they do have anti-Replicator guns they would have had to learn how to replicate them from the Atlanteans using them, which adds to their level of creepiness if they can learn how to replicate something that quickly.

Yes, very creepy--I think they've duplicated the weapons, to use against their own kind.

The big problem I had with this episode (and as I pointed in out in my own brief review) is that this was once again a retread of an SG-1 plot, and it wasn't a very good retread. We have the duplicates who believe they are real, and self-sacrifice at the end. But Tin Man and Double Jeopardy were much better episodes, IMO.

About the only thing I got any real pleasure out of was the McKay on McKay action *cough*, that is, Rodney talking to himself *g*, Ronon being distrustful of the duplicates including himself, and the Rodney/Radek scene in the end. Also the fact that for once the M&Ms didn't seem to commit any tech canon errors. I had a really hard time believing that Team Sheppard would trust the replicators so immediately just because they said they were good guys and because they were feeling all warm and fuzzy seeing Elizabeth again.

The ending, as you said, was not a very good cliffhanger.

I gave the episode a 'C' because it was average at best. I wish Mallozzi & Mullie wouldn't write episodes for the show. I really, really do.

You know, I actually haven't got a problem with retreading SG-1 plots as long as they do it well. There are actually quite a few SG-1 episodes that I would love to see remade with the SGA cast. ("Crystal Skull" and "Solitudes" top that list ... and for that matter, Crystal Skull is a really obvious remake of a Star Trek:TOS episode.)

So, yeah, I really don't have any problem with plot rehashing as long as the remake is a good, solid episode. Unfortunately, this wasn't. I didn't hate it, and I did have quite a few squee-happy moments here and there (especially the Rodney/Radek scene), but the plot holes really marred it for me. Like with "Travelers", I ended up being vastly disappointed because it could have been such a good episode if they'd thought a few things through.

SO. MUCH. TALKING.

Agreed. When people open their mouths, the plot grinds to a halt. I like action in my TV and action in my fic and...this episode was way too chatty.

I was never a fan of Weir or of Torri, so seeing her again didn't buzz me a bit. However, the scene at the end with Zelenka and McKay--now that's why I really love this show. Want good sci-fi? Start with good characters who interact with each other. Which is why the forest scenes with Teyla and Ronon were nice, also.

The beauty of "Tin Man" was telling the story from the fake characters' point of view. We develop sympathy for them and want them to survive because, copies or not, they are just as worthy as the originals. TMC fell on its face with the apparent self-sacrifice of the copies, who, as we know from our experience with "Tin Man" would be all "screw that" if someone suggested they die for their "real" counterparts.

Frankly, if we get cheated out of Teyla telling Sheppard, McKay or Ronon about her pregnancy, I'm going to be very disappointed. She is obviously pregnant and, no matter how she holds her gun, we can tell.

TMC fell on its face with the apparent self-sacrifice of the copies, who, as we know from our experience with "Tin Man" would be all "screw that" if someone suggested they die for their "real" counterparts.

That's what disappointed me most, I think -- that the copies didn't seem to have any desire for lives and existences of their own. Why the heck not? They're flesh-and-blood humans, and on top of that, they're copied from five stubborn, idiosyncratic, think-outside-the-box people. Obviously the Replicators went wrong somewhere *g*, because I can't imagine how they ended up with a McKay or Ronon or Sheppard who would meekly accept that they have no right to an independent existence simply because they're a clone.

You haven't spoiled my squee, and while I can see your points I just love this episode anyway (but then, we all know that I'm very easily pleased, I even thought Travelers wasn't so bad!!).

I know that Joe M had major, major problems with this one, because of all that had to be explained and happen in it, and I think he did a pretty good job overall - though yeah, maybe we didn't need to hear the story twice. And maybe he chose not to let the doubles go live their own life as it would be too similar to that SG1 episode with the androids? Maybe not - perhaps he'll tell us on his blog, he did say he'd do an entry on his thought processes etc.

Oh well, at least there were some great Rodney scenes! The two of them together is just so funny - and the nod to the old uniforms being uncomfortable was great as well - as was the 'genius x 2' bit (and Sheppard's response)!!!

As for the end scenes - oh poor Rodney, he's just not coping too well, is he? But he does thank Radek, showing as you say his attempts to be a better friend - but oh, my heart breaks for him. I love that John turns up and suggests Rodney go to bed (I've written that, how many other fanfic writers have as well, though this is more low key that what I wrote!!) - and again, heart breaking time.

Personally, I love the ending, but then I'm not that keen on cliffhangers! This was a more subtle approach than we've seen before and I kinda of like it, but I can get how some might be disappointed with it. Still, I hear that the season finale has a cliffhanger to top all season cliffhangers so far for Atlantis...!

Oh, and from comments Joe M made a while back, there is a scene with Rodney and Teyla about the pregnancy coming up sometime, though it does seem an awfully long time coming! (Hope that isn't a spoiler, sorry if it is.)

Oh, and I did notice the old uniforms straight away, which tipped me off something was up. Unfortunately I watched Sci-Fi's ep promo online and it showed the team meeting the team - talk about spoiler - the MGM promo didn't give anything away, so in future I'm just watching those ones and not Sci-Fi's! But even without the spoiler, I would have known something was up just from the uniforms!

I really am glad that you enjoyed it, even if I had my problems with it. I really did love how they revisited Rodney's difficulty at coping with friends' deaths ... poor Rodney. And yes, I loved the scene at the end with John looking out for Rodney -- totally forgot to mention it in my episode review above.

(It's also a bit interesting to contrast the Radek scene with the John scene. Rodney's "thank you" to Radek for being concerned about him is really sweet and is needed there -- but I don't think the thought would even occur to him to thank John for being concerned ... and it's not needed. It's just implicit in the relationship they have that John would be worried, where with Zelenka he's more combative and distant.)

I think I know which Rodney/Teyla scene you're talking about (and I'm looking forward to seeing it) but I assume that everyone already knows about her pregnancy when it happens.

I'm looking forward to Rodney's reaction to Teyla's news (which I got the impression from a certain perons' blog that Keller tells him, but that could be wrong when we see the episode in question - 'certain person' does like to mess with the fans sometimes!! I hope Teyla is the one to tell the team, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

And I agree with your view on the two scenes - Rodney's thank you to Radek is needed, but he doesn't need to thank John - that's the differences in their two friendships.

And that scene (Radek and Rodney) was only added because they were short on time - so let's hope they're short on time more often if we get scenes like this!!!

The problem is I think you are right. There were some good parts to this episode but the plot and some of the clunky dialogue. And clunky dialogue is not something we see much in Stargate.

There were some good bits I will agree, but this episode was a bit of a letdown - particularly after last weeks Miller Crossing. The real problem is that this was the mid-season finale. Just a regular old episode it might not have been so bad...but an episode that was suppose to be a cliffhanger?

Yeah. It makes the poorer episodes hard to take when they're contrasted against the better ones; we KNOW the writers can do better *points to icon* so it's frustrating when they don't.

Errm, yes. Rather disappointing. They could have done so much more with this! And bringing Weir back to go out like this was a crying shame. Sigh.

Yeah, I think the thing I hate most about less-than-stellar writing is the missed opportunities and squandering of potential, and there was SO much of that here. Elizabeth2 could have been such a wonderful character (even if all she did at the end of the episode was disappear into the Pegasus Galaxy to live her life), and instead we got ... that.

However, the thought just occurred to me that we know the experiment has been repeated on other worlds ... I'm tempted by the idea of writing a different version of the RepliTeam that managed to escape more successfully.

Commenting before writing my own post this time! But I was so curious to see what you'd written!

First of all - um. In my head, the RepliTeam will be dead when we see their cold dead bodies get burned, and their ashes scattered on the wind! In other words - I will be pissed if that happens in canon, but as it were, I was just waiting for Ronon to stand up behind the replicator pointing the gun at Sheppard! Then all of them would kick some Replicator ass, steal the Replicators' ship (possibly the ship the patrol came down in - they don't have beaming tech, do they?), and fly off into the sunset. That is what happened. You cannot convince me it's not, because it would make me SAD. And very, very annoyed. And it would make no sense!

Sadly, the above denial only half-works. But seriously - until they're killed off in a more final way in canon, the writers really could bring them back again. Which would be great. I loved the RepliTeam, even if I figured the whole thing out in the first five minutes. (The old uniform, and then they even used an old exterior shot I haven't seen for a long time - plus I've read fic where they think they're real, but are in fact replicators, so~ I was kind of prepared for that twist. ^___^)

What really bugs me right now is that, again - they SUCK at writing Teyla. Even when she's right there, it's like - GAH. I swear, the reason why Teyla is the only one who doesn't exchange any lines or anything with her own double (at least not one-on-one like the others) is because JM doesn't really have a clue how Teyla would behave. There's nothing instantly Teyla-like for her to do, because they just don't give her those moments. I absolutely loved what they did with John and Rodney and Ronon, and their interactions with their doubles and each other, but Teyla... what? What's her reaction to seeing herself, pre-baby, pre-Missing? What's her reaction to seeing Elizabeth? The two of them were close, and so much has happened, but - no, the guys get the good lines and the emotional scenes and Teyla gets the short end of the stick, and right now I'm just letting off steam, and maybe I should go do that in my own journal? ^^;; Because - um. I really liked this episode, so... It's not blind hate, it's just - the culmination of a lot of frustration, including the frustration that Teyla's pregnancy still hasn't come up with the others on-screen, and I'm going to be so very ticked off if we don't get to see the reveal!

The Seer's prediction showing something completely unrelated to Sam... On one hand, it really doesn't make sense. On the other, he asked for "the leader of these people", so that he could show her what he had seen of the fate of the city. It wasn't her prophecy at all - he never said that. It was something he'd seen, and probably only made sense of once he got to see Atlantis. So in that context, it actually makes sense. Dramatically, though? Meh. Waiting two eps for the "big reveal" after all that setup? That's a bit too short.

What I liked about this episode was the emotional part - I really loved the creepy tension and the team drawing together in RepliLantis, trying to figure out what the hell was going on. I loved Ronon and John (duplicates or not, they're still Ronon and John!) sparring, and then the five of them being so determined to help Atlantis, even if they themselves won't ever be able to go home there. I loved Zelenka talking to Rodney, and Rodney thanking him, and then John coming to check up on him. Patting him on the back! Because they're dealing with so much loss, and all of this tore open so many wounds that have barely started to scab, much less heal... And I do love the idea of a RepliTeam, somewhere out there, fighting the good fight.

There's more, but I'm probably forgetting it in my stunned "no cliffhanger" reaction. Because - yeah. What happened to the cliffhanger? (Though I won't complain, since this will make the waiting easier, and won't lead to any disappointments a la magically disappearing Ancients in Return!)

Did you read JoeM's version of the original "Teyla and Ronon walking in the forest" scene on his blog. It's SO much better and it actually lets Teyla deal with her sorrow for Elizabeth -- I'm starting to think I'm better off not knowing about the cut scenes because I really, really want them in the show itself!

I'm starting to feel so bad for Rachel Luttrell when there's a group scene and she basically gets "wallpapered" into the background. There were several scenes like that in this episode.

The one thing I think they did right with Teyla in this episode is that, once again, they subtly implied that she's pretty knowledgable about science and technology. She and John didn't even discuss it before she just went over and started operating the medical scanner while he lay down. Presumably this means that she's better at such things than he is, and he knows it. And she's the one who realized that the different stars would have tipped them off that they weren't on the real Lantea (which is very astute; I certainly hadn't thought of that).

The emotional and team stuff was really well done, though -- I keep thinking of little moments that I really liked (including that bit at the end with John coming to check up on Rodney and patting his back ... awwww!). It's really nice to see that they're drawing closer together as the stakes get higher and people keep dying; you could so easily see someone like Rodney or John pulling back, closing themselves off, after losing not one but two close friends in rapid succession, but instead they're going out of their way to look out for each other and show how much they mean to each other. They're still a sweet and adorable little family-of-circumstance, and I'm happy for that.

I just did now - the net here has just been down for twelve hours! And - meep. It's so bad - I want that scene so much. For me, that would have taken care of a whole lot of problems! And I would've loved to see more of Ronon being comforting. He does it so well. ♥

The other major problem was also touched upon on the blog, when he says the RepliTeam were trying to escape, but - as a plan, it sucks. It's not what our team would've done, and it totally does come across as them sacrificing themselves for the "real" team. All of them. Which, again, makes no sense - the Rodneys said it themselves, having two of him in the galaxy would be a brilliant asset! So can I just keep pretending they got away? ^^; And might even travel around the galaxy looking for their fellow copies? Because that would be neat!

The one thing I think they did right with Teyla in this episode is that, once again, they subtly implied that she's pretty knowledgable about science and technology.

Oh, yes! I'd noticed that, and really liked it. That, and the stars, and didn't she come with some kind of suggestion when they were all cluttering around Rodney's computer? I think - yes, she mentioned how all the scanner results are entered into the system automatically! Again, displaying her knowledge of Ancient tech - she's made Atlantis her home, and she's getting as apt at reading its signs and understanding how it works as she was with the wilderness of Athos.

I'm starting to feel so bad for Rachel Luttrell when there's a group scene and she basically gets "wallpapered" into the background.

Maybe they're already making an effort to not write too many scenes for Rachel? Out of consideration/just in case? ...I know, it's a stretch, but I so desperately want the writers to be aware of what they're doing, and have some reason for it!

The teamy stuff I loved, though! ♥ Mallozzi can do that. He was doing it in "Reunion", and now again - when they're together, when they have scenes with each other and with other friends outside the team, it really works, for me. (And then he writes even more scenes like that, and they get cut, and I'm sad!)

I also liked the many references to past episodes, the memory the show has for things like Sheppard's healing powers = retrovirus, Sheppard's double and the Doppelganger, and for some reason, they're finally dealing with the loss of Carson being felt more acutely.

The whole bit where Rodney explains that he has to bury himself in work, and how Radek is worried about him, and how John understands only too well himself - for Atlantis, that's practically a full, on-screen therapy session right there! (Which they're handling without having gotten a new psychiatrist.)

you could so easily see someone like Rodney or John pulling back, closing themselves off, after losing not one but two close friends in rapid succession, but instead they're going out of their way to look out for each other and show how much they mean to each other.

And how much do I love that? A whole lot! ♥ I think it's because - Rodney or John might want to do that for themselves, but then they'd leave the others fighting the whole mess of Pegasus galaxy issues and enemies all alone on so many levels, and they just can't do that at this point. Can't. Aww.

Yes ... the references to past episodes, and the character interactions, were wonderful. The first half loses a little impact from knowing that it's not really our guys -- and yet, in some sense it still is; our team loves and trusts each other, and so does the RepliTeam, and awwwww.

I think - yes, she mentioned how all the scanner results are entered into the system automatically!

Aha! I knew there was another scene I was forgetting, and I can't believe I forgot that because it really struck me as technical knowledge that even most of the Atlanteans probably don't have. She knows a lot about how their systems work. I wish the show would address it overtly (even a throwaway line about Rodney or Zelenka teaching her stuff would do!) but I'm very happy for what we're getting.

Like I responded to

xparrot's post below, the more I think about it, the more it starts to seem that there really might be more to the dead!RepliTeam scene than meets the eye. It's very interesting that we didn't see what happened when the Replicator shot John, and it cuts away immediately after that. I'm starting to suspect that the writers might be sharper than we think they are *g*, and might have something hidden up their sleeve.

I watched it again today, and it was actually lots of fun. A bit talky, but the character interaction is still there, even if they are "copies" - their feelings and actions are still them. The trust, the way they turn to each other when things get totally weird, the support and determination to get away, do some good... yeah. It's them. ♥

I'm really hoping you're right, and the writers do have more up their sleeve! I thought it was definitely set up like that - reminded me of the way Kolya gets shot and falls through the gate, it's... very open-ended, in a way. Especially since none of the others stir when the Asurans board the jumper - but then Sheppard looks up and he's all healed already! So are we really supposed to believe that Ronon was completely knocked out by that blow to the head, despite his nanite-induced super powers? And Teyla? Yeah... I think it's much more likely that they were just waiting until all the Replicators were gathered together in a tight space, and then - bam! Our team + Elizabeth + super powers? They could take them, and kick their little nanite butts! ♥

...I want next episode now! *g*

Yes! Mostly, I thought they improved upon the draft (and I'm fascinated to see earlier versions), but I thought they totally dropped the ball on that Teyla scene! I wish they'd kept the earlier version!

I think a big part of the problem is that most of the writers, and M&M certainly, will go for humor wherever they can, and sacrifice characterization for it. I think it most often affects Rodney, but the best example I can think of is "The Game"; I can totally understand John and Rodney playing the "game" and ribbing each other about it, and even sometimes getting caught back up in the game once they find out that it wasn't a game. But the episode went much too far: they keep forgetting that there are real people and real lives at stake, and worse, Zelenka and Lorne make the same mistake! Four characters, all of whom behaved out of character to my mind, to make cheap jokes.

Teyla doesn't have a lot of comic moments, and I honestly think that's one of the reasons why they neglect her! The other, of course, is that I don't think they're fully comfortable writing women. Some men can write women, but the writers' room has been a boys' room for far too long, and I think even having a single woman in there might help. (Having fresh blood would also help! Alan McCullough is the newest, and he has been there two or three years now!)

It was the team and friendship material that made me love the episode. I think they could have done better, but I think that every week; this time, I'm happy with what I got.

You and Tipper both write Teyla much better than the show's writers usually do! I'll give them--and Rachel Luttrell--credit for creating the character and giving her some good moments, but she's one of the most neglected characters--and, shoot, the other neglected characters have already been offed! Ford! Carson! Weir!

I found this photo a while back at Atlantica screencaps and thought, "If I were Rachel, I'd be worried!"

Agree with pretty much everything (big surprise there!) except that the lack of Teyla didn't bother me so much because I'm just resigned to it...they just don't know what the heck they're doing with her (except for Carl Binder). Sigh. Do wish the Teyla-Ronon scene on JM's blog had been kept!

And as far as the RepliTeam's end went, did you see on JM's blog about that? Because he says the plan was never for the RepliTeam to die, they volunteered because they thought they might be able to get away...now if only that had been included in the ep!! (why oh why are M&M still allowed to write for this show? siiiigh!)

Ah, my opinion was not as low as yours (I liked it, not loved it, but liked it), but I do agree that, as cliffhangers go, it was pretty disappointing. I hate to say it but, as much as I like Joe M. and think he's funny, he's a pretty poor writer. Considering how much he reads and how clever he is, it's always a little strange to me that he can't seem to translate that cleverness into his writing. He's imaginative and I love the direction he's taken the show this season, but the eps he's written...he needs to leave it up to Martin and Carl. He really does.

Still, though I too felt the ending was poor, I wasn't bothered by the plot. I didn't even really notice the wooden dialogue. Maybe I was too focused on our four teammates -- I just loved their total love for each other (and complete trust), even after they realized they were the NotTeam (only took them one week!). Plus, there were other things I just adored too much to dislike the ep -- basically everything you said in your "goods" up above. And, you know, I really think that just goes to show how good the *acting* is on this show. They really transcend the material.

My saddest thing was Elizabeth. I didn't realize that I'd missed her until I saw her again, then, yes, I felt the hole she left. Really felt it. And I think Sheppard and McKay did too. If anything came across in this episode better than anything else, I'd have to say it was that.

I also agree totally on the Seer's vision. Naye's probably got the right of it, but it still bugs me.

What bugs me is that they have yet to replicate the fantasticness of the Storm. Why was that cliffhanger so good? And why haven't they been able to do it again?

Yeah ... I like JoeM, he's smart and sarcastic and funny, but most of his scripts are terrible! Actually, part of the problem is that he writes his scripts like he writes his blog posts -- they wander all over the place, they're crammed full of ideas, but they're not very well organized and they just sort of ... end.

I was re-watching Storm not too long ago, and was struck all over again by what a fantastic episode it was in pretty much every way. Of course, I watched Storm and Eye back-to-back, so I didn't get the full cliffhanger effect. I loved the season 3 cliffhanger -- and by "loved", of course, I mean "flailed in frustration a lot", but it was a really good cliffhanger; at least I thought so. This wasn't even a cliffhanger at all!

As usual, my negative reaction has faded a bit now that I've had a chance to let the episode settle for a while. It really did have some fantastic team and character moments. And vulnerable Rodney at the end breaks my heart...

I'm constantly amazed by how they can generate surprise over there being many Wraith/Replicator ships out there. I mean, duh. Shouldn't these people have learned with the Goa'uld, who were like cockroaches?

"Hey, you guys are real and we're not**, so we're going to go die so you can live." RealTeam: "Sure! Seeya, suckers!"
This DROVE ME NUTS.

YES ME TOO. I mean, with the Tin Men in SG-1 at least there was the angst about them not being human and not being able to stay away from the power generator for too long. Here, they just decided to give up their lives in the stupidest possible fashion? WTF?

But on the reverse side of that: what about oh I don't know, jumping through a few gates so the Replicators can't trace you before setting of on a long stroll through the lushy green forest? How about not putting the "real" team in danger in the first place? Most of the time when these guys were imprisoned I was afraid they would be stupid enough to gate right back into Atlantis with all those nanobots in their bodies.

Anyway, I don't want to go on. *g*

Except, re: Teyla's pregnanacy, I'm worried it'll happen in a flashback!

Joe's Blog is up, it makes pretty interesting reading. I think I liked the Teyla Ronon forest scene the way it DIDN'T get made better.

But I agree with you about Teyla and Elizabeth not getting enough interaction. I try not to think about it too much, because they get SO CLOSE to doing things right, and then just miss.

Joe's blog? Where's that?

It's at http://josephmallozzi.blogspot.com

Ah, I thought she meant Joe Flanigan's blog, and was like, what, I missed that? But this is interesting too, thanks!

www.josephmallozzi.blogspot.com

:)

Ah! Thanks for the heads-up!

Reading JoeM's comments (as I am currently doing), I think it's kind of neat how many of the little nods to past episodes (e.g. Sheppard worrying about the retrovirus or flashing back to his double in Doppelganger) were inserted by Martin Gero at the editing stage. He really knows the characters well.

Yeah, it was just ... illogical, all the way around. The only thing that really makes sense is that the copies weren't perfect; they're missing something -- creativity, insight, ability to think outside the box, sense of self-preservation ... whatever it is that makes human beings fully-functional creatures, they just haven't got it.

I couldn't agree with you more. :D Ten minutes into the episode, I was thinking, 'They've done this before!' Only with SG-1 it was clones, not copies built by replicaters. But essentially the same thing, right down the so-called surprise finding out it wasn't 'our' team we were watching. *eyeroll* And the first section dragged out for way too long. Honestly, as soon as I realised what they were, it was hard to maintain interest, because I knew that chances were they were going to end up nobly sacrificing their lives for the 'real' team some way or another. A second team Shep running around for longer than an episode or two goes in the 'too hard' basket, apparently.

And ditto re Teyla. I couldn't believe they still aren't acknowledging her pregnancy. Plausibly, how can the rest of the team not have noticed? It makes no sense.

I did love the Radek and Rodney scene though. Yay for Radek, and it says so much that Rodney actually thanked him. And seeing Elizabeth again was good, even though I was not a huge fan of her character before - it was nice to see how well she fits with the rest of the team, the rapport she has. It made me realise that the show's missed her character and the role she plays.

The Rodney/Radek scene was lovely. Not quite enough to make up for the rest of the episode, but still lovely. ^_^

I honestly don't mind them remaking SG-1 episodes (which are, themselves, mostly remakes of older sci-fi plots) as long as they do it well. I don't mind that this episode ripped off SG-1; I mind that it did it badly. And I fully agree with you about the first segment being much too long. You've got to take your viewers' savviness into account, and I imagine that most regular viewers twigged very quickly to what was happening.

I didn't mind it at all. I don't mind it not feeling exceedingly "cliffhanger-ish" because it's not really a very long break this time. I wouldn't even necessarily consider it a two-parter (though I haven't seen spoilers for the next episode, so perhaps it is).

As for the plot - yes, it was obvious very early that it wasn't the real Atlantis, but I don't think they were trying to keep that hidden for a big "reveal." And yes, it's been done before, but it's a standard staple of all sci-fi, so it was inevitable that SGA would get to it (especially given the nature of the replicators). To not duplicate some or all of the team at some point might have felt even stranger to me.

Didn't even blink at seeing the ship - the POVness of the episode was not so obvious to me that a shift was jarring. Didn't bat an eye at all the talkiness either.

I had no preconceptions about this episode, so I wasn't expecting a whiz-bang Siege II sort of thing. It was just a nice, basic episode that extended the current through plot.

I do agree, however, that the offer of the spare team to serve as decoys was handled somewhat cavalierly. However, I don't think we're meant to believe they are all dead except Sheppard (the others should heal too). And think about it from their POV - they're still essentially our heroes - they would choose to take a risk to save others and would probably assume they could do some damage and/or escape later. It just would have been nice to see a brief argument between the two groups about which ones should be the diversion....

Well ... like I mentioned in another comment above, I don't mind them remaking SG-1 episodes at all ... as long as they do it well. In this case, they've got to take into account that most of the viewers are going to be familiar with the "OMG, we're not really human!" trope from SG-1 or the (many) other sci-fi books and movies that have used it. And I didn't feel that they did it as well as they could have.

I don't think I'd mind the sacrifice of the RepliTeam nearly as much if we'd gotten to see more of what went into their decision. As it is, we saw so little of it that the general impression is that they simply decided to throw their lives away for "our" team, and I can't understand why they'd do that. If it is, as you said, the canon characters' self-sacrificing tendencies coming to the fore, then why didn't "our" team offer to sacrifice themselves so the RepliTeam could get away? They were, after all, kinda responsible for the RepliTeam existing in the first place. I'd loved to have seen 2 versions of John arguing about who gets to be the kamikaze! Or maybe a scene with the RepliTeam on their puddlejumper, asking each other if they really want to do this, all getting on the same page and being willing to die as long as they die together. But we didn't get any of that; if such scenes did occur, they were all off-camera, and I was very frustrated by it. I'd love to have had less exposition earlier for another 10 minutes or so of Repli-Team and RealTeam interactions at the end.

I rather enjoyed the ep for all the various team moments (minus Teyla, as

naye referenced above, but I've almost gotten resigned to her being ignored. And she did do the science thing with the medical scanner, and she also is the one who caught that Rodney should have noticed the stars being wrong, which is aww - I'll take my Rodney-Teyla scenes where I can get 'em!) And Rodney + Rodney is adorable squared (and RepliJohn was so guarding the 2 McKays when everyone else was out hiking and chatting, no?)

There were of course grave plotholes, amazingly clunky exposition, and blatant ripping-off of (better) SG-1 episodes, as you mentioned, but, well...it's an M&M episode; I wasn't expecting any better (it's kind of sad that they are the worst writers on the show, discounting a couple one-shots scripts.) There was in fact more cuteness than I was expecting, so overall I came out of it pleased. Also the final scenes of Rodney with Radek and then John are so very touching. And that he thanks Radek, that even in pain he is making the effort, because he's lost so many friends and might be losing more, but he's slowly learning, and oh, Rodney... (SGA is so the Rodney McKay show these days. You won't find me complainin'!)

The only thing that really got me was the completely pointless deaths of the RepliTeam, not just that they were so willing to die, but willing to die for so little reason...why couldn't it have been Sheppard alone piloting that jumper? I'm totally disbelieving that was the real plan, not if the duplicates were one-tenth their real selves. McKay managed to short-circuit the replicator stunners (or whatever those weapons were) (and yes, found a way in 10 minutes, this is Rodney!) and the scene changed just before they jumped the replicators, stole their ship, and went off and fight the good fight on their own terms! Preferably in really snazzy costumes!
...Hey, I ended up fic'ing the SG-1 android team back to life after "Double Jeopardy", because I couldn't take them being gone. A duplicate SGA team, with nanite-superpowers - way too good to pass up! The line for the AU starts here-->

*joins line*

I think that I would have needed a whole lot more discussion surrounding the deaths of the RepliTeam in order to buy it. Because as it is, both they and "our" team are acting massively OOC simply to further the plot, and I call foul on that.

They could have made it work; they could easily have shortened some of the earlier expository bits to make room for a scene or two where the two teams talk it over and come up with a plan, or a brief scene on the Jumper when the RepliTeam does that mind-meld thing our team does and looks at each other and they all decide to uncloak and give the others a chance to get away even though it probably means their own death.

On the other hand ... you know, thinking about your comment about jumping the Replicators ... it's interesting that we never actually see what happens when RepliJohn gets shot. Maybe this IS their escape plan -- because John doesn't say that they're dead when the real team runs back through the gate, he just says they're not coming. And just because they're sending the real Elizabeth's things back to Earth doesn't necessarily mean they believe RepliLiz is dead. Maybe the RepliTeam stayed behind with the deliberate intent of infiltrating the ship and taking the fight to the Replicators.

... hmmm.

I want the next episode now, because I think I'll like this one much better if it all turns out to be a fake-out (and this show DOES do stuff like that).

I'm really hoping the only reason the replicator team decided to go off on a kamakazie mission was because they are counting on the fact that they heal fast??? that's the only thing that made sense for why they'd do something so crazy/stupid. I mean they could have all just waited in the jumper with the cloak for a day or two???

Um but really that was when I was calling foul on the episode. :)

Yeah, I'm INSANELY frustrated with the RepliTeam being written off like that, and "our" team being willing to accept it.

At the same time, I suspect (well, hope) that they're not completely gone and may be seen again in the second half of the "two-parter".

Liked the episode (but I'm resigned to liking them all by now, they really have to go Misbegotten on me, to get me riled about anything), but I thought there was one blatant, giant error and maybe I have it all wrong, because nobody mentions it: How did Repli-John know about New Athos and its location? His knowledge only went so far as Elisabeth's knowledge and she was gone before Atlantis relocated.

And the Repli-team's "sacrifice" was left so open-ended, it left me very worried. I don't think they were killed, I think they would sooner be assimilated and get with the replicator program and I really don't care for a "bad" repli-team-with-Elisabeth running around in the Pegasus galaxy looking like the real thing.

But there were a lot of details I really liked. I caught on to Lorne and Keller's strange behavior pretty quickly, but not to Zelenka's, which - to me - implies that Rodney knows Zelenka *so* well, RepliRodney would know exactly how Zelenka would act and have it down to a tee. So big yay there.

Also Ronon and Teyla's apprehension at meeting their doubles and their conversation about them. They were much more freaked out than Sheppard and McKay, who have been confronted with doubles already at some point. So yay there.

And the scene at the end; how John tells Rodney he packed up Elisabeth's personal belongings to have them shipped to earth (closure!), and Zelenka and Rodney .. awwww!

And similarities with SG-1 I don't care about because I am in blissful ignorance of SG-1. *g*

a/n At least they finally managed to work Carter's lack of appearance into the story line, but seriously, is she ever around? Sheppard and McKay seem more in charge of Atlantis than she is.

The Athosians have been on their new planet since "Return", so its location would have been well known to Elizabeth.

I like your comment about Keller and Lorne acting weird, but not Zelenka, because of spending so much time together. Cool touch!

I really wish they'd mention Carter on the episodes where she's not seen. Mallozzi mentioned on his blog that they didn't want to bring her in for this one, which makes sense as she's only contracted for a certain number of episodes and they didn't want to waste her on one in which she plays no role in the part. But just a throwaway line of dialogue -- McKay mentioning that they need to go debrief her, or ANYTHING. Because, yes, it does leave it feeling like she's not around at all, and in this episode in particular it would have been yet another way of highlighting the difference between the universes.

You're right, I forgot that the Athosians went to their new location before Elisabeth had her accident. Thanks. But still, after the repli-team escapes, Sheppard and Weir have this conversation in the back of the puddle jumper:

Elisabeth: Go where?
Sheppard: Obviously we can’t go back straight to Atlantis, they’d take us out before we had a chance to explain, but maybe New Athos, we can contact them once we get there.

It shows that Sheppard knows (or thinks he knows) the new location of Atlantis, which is strange. The only reason real!Atlantis is still safe from the replicators, is because they haven't found them yet.

a/n Also forgot my biggest yay in my previous post: the stick fight. The hot hot stick fight. I was afraid we weren't getting those this season, with Teyla being (invisibly) pregnant, but yay. And Sheppard was holding his own against Ronon. I love downtime scenes.

It shows that Sheppard knows (or thinks he knows) the new location of Atlantis, which is strange. The only reason real!Atlantis is still safe from the replicators, is because they haven't found them

Heh, that was actually something that I'd thought about, because at first I had similar thoughts to yours: Wait, how are they going to contact Atlantis without knowing the gate address? (And I believe the Lanteans did pick a planet in Lifeline that wasn't on their "safe" list, so that Elizabeth wouldn't be able to betray it.)

But that's why they were going to New Athos -- so that the Athosians could dial the gate for them! Otherwise it wouldn't matter, they could gate to any planet and then dial Atlantis. The Athosians were the only people they could think of who would almost certainly know the new gate address. And ultimately, since New Athos is deserted, they apparently wandered around until they ran into a gate team -- the guy who actually dialed the gate for them and called in to Atlantis in the scene were he introduces Weir.

This must've been a hella complicated episode to write. I can just see the writing staff ... "Okay, we need them to do this! No, wait, they can't do that, they don't know the gate address. But we can have them contact the Athosians! Wait, no, we've already killed off the Athosians. Wait ..." It must have been horribly complex keeping track of what they knew and what they didn't know.

(And Yay for the hotness of the stick fight!)

But that's why they were going to New Athos -- so that the Athosians could dial the gate for them!

But then Sheppard's is still using a poor choice of words. He literally says "Obviously we can’t go back straight to Atlantis, they’d take us out before we had a chance to explain". He should've told Weir they were heading for New Athos, the only link to Atlantis they had knowledge of, so they could contact Atlantis from there.

Whoa, brain wave here. If Elisabeth knew of New Athos, then the Replicators knew. The replicators could've easily abducted the Athosians and done that mindprobe thing, to get the code for the Atlantis gate! Wow, maybe they did.

This must've been a hella complicated episode to write.

Oh heck yes. Alternate realities and doubles must be near impossible to write, especially since they only have 45 minutes to cram in all the complicated detail and do a decent story line and end it with a mid season finale cliff hanger. But they did a lot of things right. I'm with you on the Ronon tattoo. My first thought was, wow, they remembered to cover it up. *g*

Also (yes, I watched the ending again), Sheppard coming into the lab to send Rodney to bed, squee. Their friendship just kills me with its cuteness.

Honestly, I watched this episode yesterday and I really and truly didn't know what I thought of it.

Admittedly, I'd had relatively little sleep in the previous 24 hours, driven to Canberra and back, (somehow) found the energy to go to the gym on a Sunday morning and then finally flopped down on the couch in the energy-sapping heat and humidity that was Sydney weather yesterday - after doing the bare minimum of (absolutely necessary to maintain the illusion of civilisation) housework. So, I was kinda... knackered, really.

And my befuddled brain just couldn't seem to get a grip of what the point of what this episode - this MID SEASON FINALE (as scrolled across the screen at one point) actually was.

And so (and I know how utterly lame this sounds) I thought I'd wander over here to what your reaction was - reasoning that since we share a brain so often, maybe I could use yours as a spare while mine was clearly "out of order".

Now, I'm thinking maybe it was the episode and not just my brain refusing to function. I did pick up on Pod!Lorne and Pod!Keller instantly, so I assume that I was meant to. Didn't immediately make the jump to Replicators, but was sure it was something like and hence not surprised when Replicatorization turned out to be the form of Podification used.

I did hope that it was more of a "Our Team" captured and placed in a Pod scenario rather than new replicas of them made. As I'm sure people have said, SG-1 did that way back in their 1st or 2nd season. I was actually mildly amused when Duplicate Teyla said that she had held on to a vague hope of that being the case until she was face to face with her other self - it was exactly my reaction - and so yeah, that was probably deliberately done that way.

And so, yeah, replicas of the team and Elizabeth made. But still, WHAT WAS THE POINT??? I was sort of just settling into an acceptance that this was just a "filler" ep when the scrolling text at the bottom of the screen reminded me that it was the MID SEASON FINALE. W. T. F.

Duplicates made and killed off (apparently - although it was open ended enough for the "twist" to be that they're not actually dead). The Originals get a device that allows them to track the Replicators Aurora class ships. Handy, I s'pose. The "cliffhanger" is that they realise that there are a helluva lot of those ships... 24 hours later I still haven't worked up enough energy to lift my nails to my teeth in an attempt to bite them. I say again - W. T. F. That's it?

I really am flabbergasted because when they made this episode they probably didn't know that they'd be renewed for a new season already. They also didn't know that a WGA strike would also possibly "handicap the competition" in some ways. But IMHO they're bloody lucky on both counts. Coz this - as Mid Season Finale is so very anti-climatic to me.

Yes, there were plenty of nice bits that I enjoyed. The Rodney and Radek interaction (both Duplicates and Originals). Some really nice Duplicate team moments. The Originals meet the Duplicates stuff didn't impress me as much as it did some others. I was mildly surprised that Rodney was so effusively enthusiastic about working with his counterpart - especially, considering his almost instant antipathy to Rod is McKay and Mrs Miller last year. But whatever.

Elizabeth? Nice to see her introduced again, but again I couldn't get a handle of what it was supposed to mean. How was it supposed to advance her story? Or was it not meant to advance her story, but to end it instead? Like with Ford after the Hive episode? If that's the case, then I'd have preferred that they didn't bother. I'd rather have the hope that Elizabeth is out there somewhere rather than the "closure" that this provided.

And so, perhaps due to my own sense of denial, I'm refusing to accept both a) that the original was killed earlier (I really don't know why Repli!Keller would lie but I'm assuming she did) and b) that the Duplicate team and Elizabeth were killed in this ep. Pointless waste and I just refuse to buy into it. *cough* And if someone would like to write some fic to that effect, that would be nice. *cough*

But the reactions of John, Rodney and Radek to the death of the original (and in John and Rodney's case meeting and then losing the duplicate) were gorgeous. I did appreciate that.

There were a lot of MOMENTS that I appreciated in this ep, but a collection of nice moments do NOT a Mid Season Finale make! Hmmm... and now I seem to remember having a similar reaction the Supernatural's second season finale too. As did you.

Maybe we are just a little out of step with fandom. I dunno.

Maybe we are just a little out of step with fandom. I dunno.

Ehhh, in this case, at least, I don't think we're the only ones. What made me feel a bit weird about the SPN finale was that it seemed like we were the ONLY people not having a squee-fit over it, and for similar reasons. But in this case, while I was actually surprised at the amount of uncritical squee that seems to abound for this episode, there seem to be a lot of people who had similar problems.

And it's not that I begrudge people their squee. But, as you wrote ...

There were a lot of MOMENTS that I appreciated in this ep, but a collection of nice moments do NOT a Mid Season Finale make!

Yes, yes, yes.

And this is true despite that fact that it is basically the "moments" that I watch this show for. I mean, let's face it -- it's really difficult to take SGA seriously a lot of the time. But they can do better, and in fact a lot of the episodes this season have been really, really good, not just squeeful but genuinely good.

Am I asking too much that the mid-season finale should be a high point for the first half of the season? Or at least a really good episode -- on a par with "Tabula Rasa" or "Doppelganger" or "Missing"?

I was mildly surprised that Rodney was so effusively enthusiastic about working with his counterpart - especially, considering his almost instant antipathy to Rod is McKay and Mrs Miller last year.

I hadn't even thought about that. But you know, I think most of the problem with Rod was that he was afraid of being replaced. That wasn't really an issue here -- although it might have become an issue if the double had lived longer.

The more I think about it, though, the more I'm convinced that the RepliTeam aren't really dead. I find it very suspicious that they cut away immediately after showing the Replicator shooting Sheppard. And we never actually saw the two teams discussing just what, exactly, their plan might have been. I'm telling you, it'll go a long way towards redeeming this episode in my mind if it turns out next episode that this actually was a setup for another big chunk of plot involving the duplicates. (Still a lame cliffhanger, but hey, whatever.)

I also really, REALLY hope that this is not the last we ever see of Elizabeth, original or duplicate. Like with the duplicate team, I hope that they have something cool planned for next episode, because otherwise this is a really, really terrible way to kill off a character. Off-camera! Related second-hand! Well, third-hand for our guys, who heard about it from the RepliTeam. With Elizabeth, I'd settle for either RealLiz or a duplicate that's not just going to get killed off immediately. I don't expect her to come back, and I'm not even sure I'd want her to, but I love the idea of duplicate Elizabeth getting to have her own life, kind of like Jack O'Neill's clone did on SG-1. There is so much fic potential in that and no reason at all why her loose end has to be tied up in a neat bow, considering how many other loose ends are unraveling all over the place.

In short, it's not just your brain, it is the episode -- either that, or it's my brain too! *g* I suppose I'll be holding out hope that there's some kind of decent payoff ahead, and in the meantime I'll have all the nifty character moments from this episode and the last few to keep me happy. (Seriously, this season has rocked so far. And it's rocked for all the characters, too! Everybody's taken a turn in the spotlight.)

Am I asking too much that the mid-season finale should be a high point for the first half of the season? Or at least a really good episode -- on a par with "Tabula Rasa" or "Doppelganger" or "Missing"?

Yeah, that might be the real problem. This episode just wasn't anywhere near as good as many or the other episodes this season. And it probably did suffer from following a very... shall we say "high impact" like Miller's Crossing (love it or loathe it, that made most people - the ones with brains at least - really think and/or feel something). Where as this ep seemed to be just holding up signposts. "This is the big revelation. Cue revelation!", "This is the action sequence. Cue action.", "This is where we mourn the passing of an old character. Cue mourning!" I personally dislike the feeling that the author is trying to badger me into their point of view.

Okay, my brain is fried at the moment. Gonna go to sleep and will try to chat again sometime tomorrow. Coz I do have more to say. Surprised?

Surprised? No, not really. *g* And I totally agree about the "signpost" feeling in this episode. It was like the abridged version of a really good episode, where it needed another hour or so, filling in the gaps, to be a really good episode.

I need to hie myself over to your LJ and read the discussion there -- I noticed that you had posted, but hadn't really gone through the comments yet.

It was like the abridged version of a really good episode, where it needed another hour or so, filling in the gaps, to be a really good episode.

BINGO! (Or, as Dean might say, Yahtzhee!)

I vaguely remember someone saying how this wasn't part one of a two parter, unlike the eps before the mid season break in previous seasons. Well, I do think that this storyline would have been better served as parts one AND two of a two parter! Yes, extend the story over two episodes and "fill in the gaps" so that the drama is properly fleshed out, rather than this "bare bones of a story" feeling that I get with it now. Allow the "moments" to have real weight within the story, rather than the rapidfire "tossed at the audience as distractions" feel that it had.

But you know, I think most of the problem with Rod was that he was afraid of being replaced. That wasn't really an issue here -- although it might have become an issue if the double had lived longer.

It just really "pinged" on me as off. And while the Original McKay might not have any fear or being replaced by the other, I would have expected the Duplicate to resent the Original for having "more right" to the identity he thought was his. Instead they had Duplicate Ronon voice sentiments a bit like that. I could have handled Duplicate McKay not actually saying anything about it, but maybe quietly thinking it to himself (Although McKay keeping his opinions to himself? Yeah, right.). But to have both Rodneys be so effusive about working together and to have Rodney instantly see a Replicator nannite-built version as "me" (when he kept reitierating that and Alt Universe version was definitely "NOT me") - it just seemed wrong to me. Inconsistent characterisation about what you'd think would be a fairly central issue in anyone's psyche. Just. Wrong.

The more I think about it, though, the more I'm convinced that the RepliTeam aren't really dead. I find it very suspicious that they cut away immediately after showing the Replicator shooting Sheppard. And we never actually saw the two teams discussing just what, exactly, their plan might have been. I'm telling you, it'll go a long way towards redeeming this episode in my mind if it turns out next episode that this actually was a setup for another big chunk of plot involving the duplicates.

Ditto.

I also really, REALLY hope that this is not the last we ever see of Elizabeth, original or duplicate. Like with the duplicate team, I hope that they have something cool planned for next episode, because otherwise this is a really, really terrible way to kill off a character. Off-camera! Related second-hand! Well, third-hand for our guys, who heard about it from the RepliTeam.

Yeah. Ditto again.

(Seriously, this season has rocked so far. And it's rocked for all the characters, too! Everybody's taken a turn in the spotlight.)

Yeah. Well, except Sam Carter. I was very much of the "For God's sake! Wait and see!" camp when the spoilers broke that she was coming to SGA, but now having waited and seen, I'm getting a bit miffed that she really hasn't got a genuine presence on the show. She's not in half the eps and I don't miss her. In the eps that she has been in, her role seems mostly peripheral and rarely (if ever) vital. I've comes to the conclusion that above all POINTLESSNESS of characters and narratives annoys me more than any other problem. I'l take inconsistency and skewed logic and "Dear GOD! That's not humanly, scientifically or even supernaturally possible!" over sheer pointlessness. And so far, since coming to Atlantis, Sam hasn't really got a point.

And that's such a WASTE! Because a) Sam, in her own right, is a great character, b) she's got heaps of personal backstory with Rodney and c) she's got the capacity to develop interesting relationships with Sheppard, Teyla and Ronon (whose attitudes to her were largely undefined before she arrived). There really is a huge amount of potential just going begging! I do hope they do an episode with a really meaty role in it for Sam soon - otherwise I might have to just put her presence on the show down to "contractual obligations" as someone suggested on my LJ.

Oh, and about that, what I originally posted at my own LJ was mostly what first put in my response here - but there have been some interesting comments. Once again with the cross-posted LJ converstaions. ;-)

And as a final BTW, I do still have problems with the SPN finale last season, but I must admit that since I got the season 2 DVD set and saw a bit of the behind the scenes doco on the making of that ep, well... I'm just a bit more "forgiving" of the problems because it sounds like they had to change a lot of things at the last minute due to budget and actor availability and other unexpected crises. And those snags included that "Papa Winchester reunion" scene that we both thought was way over the top schmaltzy - apparently Jeffrey Dean Morgan was only available to shoot one day and the script got changed AFTER that, so they had do a bunch of manipulations with blue screen, etc. So while it doesn't change my view that there were significant deficiencies in the episode, I find myself a little more forgiving of some of the places it's not quite up to par - and so I can just focus on enjoying the squee moments. As we agreed at the time, the bits that were good were very, very good - and fortunately for me it seems that the good tends to linger more than the bad in my memory.

I think what I'm missing the most about Sam's role in SGA is the absence of her backstory with Rodney. They have such a complex history, and I think the ONLY scene with them was that one when she first arrived on Atlantis and he told her he's seeing someone. I did appreciate having that in there, his attempt to get their relationship off on a professional footing (even if, being Rodney, he muffed it badly), but there is SUCH potential in having someone around who knew Rodney back before his Atlantis days, and it is very annoying to never have that touched upon.

Honestly, aside from that, so far I really haven't been unhappy with Sam's overall lack of participation because she did get 10 years of having her character very thoroughly explored in SG-1. In Doppelganger, for example, I didn't mind Sam not getting a dream sequence of her own because I would honestly rather see the other characters' psyches get explored in the limited time that we have for an episode. I thought "Seer" did a great job with her, and "Reunion"; I think I'll be happy as long as we keep getting occasional Sam-heavy episodes, because I think so far we've had about as much in the way of Sam introspection as we normally get for any of the rest of the cast in an average half-season (although I really wish they wouldn't just have her VANISH every other episode -- at least acknowledge her presence in a line of dialogue, f'r pete's sake!).

But to have both Rodneys be so effusive about working together and to have Rodney instantly see a Replicator nannite-built version as "me" (when he kept reitierating that and Alt Universe version was definitely "NOT me") - it just seemed wrong to me. Inconsistent characterisation about what you'd think would be a fairly central issue in anyone's psyche. Just. Wrong.

Er ... character growth, maybe? He's not nearly as threatened by a replica of himself as he was a year ago because in the wake of M&MM and Tao he's become a lot more confident about his place in the team? I dunno ... it just didn't ping as "wrong" to me, although possibly at the time I was more distracted by the sheer squee of having both teams in one room at the same time.

To have someone at least acknowledge that they've encountered alt-McKays before would have been nice, though.

So while it doesn't change my view that there were significant deficiencies in the episode, I find myself a little more forgiving of some of the places it's not quite up to par - and so I can just focus on enjoying the squee moments. As we agreed at the time, the bits that were good were very, very good - and fortunately for me it seems that the good tends to linger more than the bad in my memory.

It does really help on a lot of a show's deficiencies to know the behind-the-scenes of it all. And that's interesting about JDM ... I guess that could explain a lot (and I wonder what they were originally going to do with him?).

My brain definitely tends to edit episodes for the best bits as time goes on. In fact, I rewatched parts of AHBL2 when I was writing my "Dean is a girl" AU and I couldn't really figure out why I'd disliked it as much as I had. Of course, I didn't go ahead and watch the parts I liked the least -- but the first half was still quite good.

Joe mallozzi has temproraily moved his blog to http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/

(normally I wouldn't be following him about like this but I asked him a question...)

Anyway, he answered someone else's version of the same question thus:

"Thornyrose writes: “Do we get to see Teyla explain her ‘condition” to her teammates, or is that something that will happen offscreen?”

Answer: We will definitely see the reveal onscreen - as well as the ensuing fireworks."

So hopefully that will turn out to be a good thing?

Oh, thank you so much for bringing the answer! I'm glad someone asked, and I'm really glad to know they'll show it onscreen (although they'd better hurry up or she's going to be having that baby on a mission! *g*).

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

SGA 4x10: This Mortal Coil

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