sholio | Infodumps

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Infodumps

One of the huge advantages of writing fanfic is that you don't have to explain anything: who these people are, what they're doing here, who they are to each other; this has all been established for us.

Original fiction is a whole different story.

I've really been struggling with this lately. Part of the problem is that I've recently read several fantasy novels that are horribly heavy-handed with their infodumps (including one with a character who was prone to giving page-long history lessons to the other characters at the drop of a hat), which has led me to being extremely gun-shy about explaining anything. But eventually the reader needs some kind of payoff for their detective work.

Personally, I tend to prefer books and movies that lean towards less explanation rather than more; I really love being dropped in the middle of the action and having to figure out what's going on, assuming that it's actually possible to figure out what's going on. On the other hand, it's very easy to go overboard with that sort of thing; I hate the feeling that the writer is being deliberately coy with me, withholding information or obfuscating their created reality with cutesy techniques like using made-up names for ordinary household objects.

I suppose I'm not really going anywhere with this; I've just spent the day slogging through edits on my graphic novel, and I'm coming to the point where I'm tempted to cut out a couple pages of explanation, since the information on those pages is seeded through other parts of the novel. My beta reader suggests that I eliminate the wordy explanations and let the reader figure things out for themselves. However, since some of this is fairly critical plot information, I'm worried that it might force the readers to do a little *too* much work on their own.

It doesn't help that, being a graphic novel, I can't just drop out a paragraph or two; I have to rearrange pages, panels and dialogue balloons in order to seamlessly eliminate some of the explanation.

Do you have any thoughts on this, as a reader or a writer? Are there certain techniques that you find effective for delivering large chunks of information to the reader, or do you think all such things should be avoided and vital information should be parceled out as part of the natural flow of the story?

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I'm not sure how you feel about first person pov but I sometimes think it lends itself better to "infodumps" than 3rd person. Joan D Vinge is one of my favorite 1st person pov authors but she also wrote this sci-fi novel called The Snow Queen which was in 3rd person and I just liked the way it unfolded so it didn't feel like an info dump. I think she just had this way of weaving the information into the story naturally while keeping the reader interested.

Lately, with newer books I'm kind of noticing the info dumps as well. Though some authors handle it better than others.

Now to answer your last two questions, I don't like too much information being given all at once or through dialogue, I think a good mix of dialogue and just plain old explanation works, or just have the character thinking about stuff...I think for me it's just easier to point out my favorite authors and say "they know how to give out information try doing that." But...It really depends on the author's writing styles. I think authors who are great with dialogue can easily get away with info dumping through that method while others are better off sticking to description.

I think information should be parceled out as the story unfolds because too much at once is overwhelming and boring and doesn't always work well.

I do agree with you about first person; I've sometimes switched stories from third to first or vice versa, and it's really interesting how some things are so much easier to write in first person. As a reader I'm not overly fond of it, which means that I don't use it all that often, but thinking about it, some of the most effective first-person novels I can think of are ones that take place in fairly complex sci-fi or fantasy worlds, thus requiring a lot of explanation. Hmm.

Info that's critical to plot... if it can be parceled out that makes it a lot easier to read. Even if it's subtle clues that you have to go back later on & say, "Oh, that's what this meant!"

One of the reasons that I find Tolkien such a chore to read is the fact that the man loved to do massive info dumps on you. He could spend five paragraphs just describing a leaf! :-p The worst part is that it would have nothing to do with the plot, so you're going, "And, this is important how?"

Great story, but man, was he long winded!

I'm not in favor of long winded explanations without back story - that tends to leave me more lost than anything. :)

LOL, I know what you mean about Tolkein! I really enjoyed his books as a teenager, but going back and re-reading them when the movies came out, I'd completely forgotten how much of the book was spent sitting around talking for pages and pages about the history of this or that. My brain had apparently edited it down to a "best parts version" that consisted largely of hobbits fighting orcs.

I use fanfic to practice this, actually. If it's a vanity piece I'll just throw out the Johns and Rodneys and not explain everything. But most of the time, every single person on my flist can read all of my fanfic and understand everything that's necessary for the story, no matter if they've seen the canon or not.

I'm not really sure I can advise on techniques. I just don't treat them as separate from telling the story; they're all dependent on what kind of story I'm telling; and they're likely variations of 'show, show, show.' But that's a good benchmark for me -- can someone open it up sight unseen and get it by the end of the story.

Well, I suppose I'm not really looking for advice so much as just what works for other people. I definitely agree that, ideally, the infodump should be seamlessly worked into the fabric of the story. What's giving me trouble is figuring out if I've given too much or too little. My beta reader thinks too much, but when I was originally serializing the comic online, I had more explanation there because some of my readers were getting a little bit lost ... so now I'm trying to find a middle ground.

I had never really thought of writing fanfic so that it could be read by a non-fan; I mean, obviously, I want my fic to be a good story, but it's usually so thoroughly rooted in canon that it's difficult to imagine someone who's not familiar with canon even *wanting* to read it (although I've actually read fic when I wasn't familiar with the show, so, hmm; food for thought).

And it ate my comment.

It will depend on the format. I've seen serials in anime, multi-novel series, and simple cliffhangers use similar and different techniques. If you have a talented actor like David Hewlett, you can put in as much exposition as you want, as long as it's entertaining. Someone mentioned Tolkien... he put in a lot of exposition because it was largely the point-- Middle Earth and its history was the point.

I had never really thought of writing fanfic so that it could be read by a non-fan

Being multi-fandom taught me fast that I have no idea who's actually reading my stories. Crossovers alone! It boils down a lot of issues fast. For instance there are some stories where it's not necessary to even mention that John's rank is Lt. Col., but where it's important that the reader knows that he's always armed.

I had a writing teacher tell me to write what the reader needs to know (and he was saying that because I was being too coy in this one story I wrote).

I think there's times when info dumps are a necessary evil, especially if it's extrememly important to the plot. Usually when there's a lot of info that I need to give, I try to do it in a way so that I'm not bombarding the reader with it. For example, I might have two people talking and the info is given both in the conversation as well as through the thought process. Maybe one character will say something, short and sweet, that gets the other character pondering and thus expanding on that bit of info.

But for the most part, to me, the less immediate dumping the better. Sometimes - such as in terms of a character's background - I'll give enough info to give the reader an idea of where this character is coming from, then expound on it in later chapters where and when needed. Other times, I just do my best to make it as short, sweet, but explanatory as possible.

It really is tricky stuff.

I suppose this is why outsider POVs (as in the Harry Potter books) are so very common; if the viewpoint character is unfamiliar with the world, it's a perfect excuse for explaining to the reader. An immersive POV is a lot harder. In this case, I suppose I'm doing a combination, since I have several viewpoint characters -- and they do spend an awful lot of time explaining things to each other. Hmm.

I agree that an infodump when a character is introduced is absolutely to be avoided. Those are rarely anything but annoying -- a short paragraph, maybe, but I've read a lot of books that went to ridiculous lengths to fill me in on a character that I'd only just met.

What's giving me a lot more trouble is figuring out how much explanation the reader actually needs when we're 200 pages into the novel. "Write what the reader needs to know" is actually quite good advice, because a lot of the material I'm considering whether to throw out is interesting history on the world, but I suppose it's really not vital for the reader to know the entire history of the war in order to understand why these people are trying to kill each other now.

You could always do an appendix to help flesh out the history without having to do so within the story line. I read a book where the author did just that, had the history of the world they created at the end of the book since it wasn't really need to know stuff. It was very interesting, written as though it were a section taken out of a history book from that world.

I like that sort of thing, and I'll probably do at least a little bit of that -- I just need to make sure that the reader can follow the story without it.

I tend to personally like stories that unfold slowly, that draw you in by making you slowly figure out the world through details dropped here and there, rather than dumped all at once. But that can be tricky to manage, especially depending on the story itself. Some stories the world is just background to the characters' drama, then it's okay to be vague; other times the workings of the world are crucial to the plot, and then you better be sure the reader understands them.

But then, sometimes I like stories that spend a lot of time detailing the world-building, too. It depends a lot on the nature of the story. Robin McKinley's Sunshine is half-infodump; it reads like an RPG gaming manual at places, and yet I loved it, because I found the world so interesting that I wanted to know more about it. ...Then again, I like to read gaming manuals, even though I don't game. So maybe I'm a bad example. But then, Tolkien's hugely popular, so...a lot of people actually like info-dumps, I'd say.

In some ways I think of this as a major difference between fanfic and original fic...when I read fanfic, I tend to want the characters I love and nothing else; I'll skim plot details to get to the h/c/dialogue/other juicy bits, unless the story itself is exceptionally compelling. While as in original stories I often want a more fleshed-out world...maybe because it can take me a while to warm to characters, and until I fall for them I'm less interested in their drama and more interested in their story.

What you describe are my favorite kinds of stories, too -- the ones that immerse you in the world and then reveal things as the characters discover them. But oh, it's so hard to do! I worry that I'm telling too much, and then on the next page, I worry that I haven't revealed enough. *frets*

In some ways I think of this as a major difference between fanfic and original fic...when I read fanfic, I tend to want the characters I love and nothing else; I'll skim plot details to get to the h/c/dialogue/other juicy bits, unless the story itself is exceptionally compelling.

I know exactly what you mean! My needs for fanfic are often very different from what I look for in published fiction. Actually, it varies by author, too; there are some writers who write clunky prose but really deliver on the character interactions, and some who draw me in with the beauty of their writing even if it never quite strikes the emotional chord that I'm looking for.

Having written original fiction I know what you mean. Best method I find is to do the info dump in stages, not all at once cos that tends to be boring. If it's for a graphic comic, and it's essential info, my personal preference would be for some brief info to be there. I hate reading comics or graphic novels where things are going on and you *don't* really understand what's happening because the author expected you to guess (or read their minds). I lose interest quickly unless it's a mystery story, then you sort of expect that. Ideally, you would want to try to cut down or summarize the info as having a whole lot info dump esp in a graphic novel also *isn't* good. After working on the Fairytale story for Madison, I can sympathize with you about the effort you have to go through when working within the narrow confines of a page of a graphic file. I found it painful when I had to do big edits and move pics and structure around cos it didn't fit the page. Anyway, that's my thoughts on it, not sure whether it helps or not.

I definitely agree with you that visual cues can be lost or ignored *very* easily. Actually that's turned out to be one of the big challenges for me between writing prose versus doing visual storytelling, because in a novel you can "direct" the reader's attention with descriptive paragraphs, as opposed to just drawing a roomful of objects and relying on the reader to pick out what's important. (I mean, that's highly oversimplified because obviously you *do* use visual tricks to direct the reader to what you want them to look at, but it still relies on a high level of reader involvement in order to work.)

I'm a *big* fan of just scattering necessary info in amongst the story itself; it's like finding tiny little presents! ^^

But if those bits 'n pieces are plot crucial (as opposed to being background information about the world or whatever), it's nice to have a summation of the important points in one place, in case the reader missed something. (But only the REALLY important stuff.) So, I guess, don't completely rule out keeping in those two pages?

Oh, and, since it's for a graphic novel-- I'd lean even more towards keeping some sort of summation, since it's more difficult to innocently drop in information in visual format than it is when you have three hundred pages of narrative. Or at least, I assume it's more difficult; I haven't ever done any graphic novels, but I know that as a reader I tend to miss visual clues more easily.

(And you're very right that it's more difficult to express information in visual format than when you can use textual cues to direct the reader's focus to the things you want emphasized. Very difficult indeed!)

Yeah, kinda what I'm trying for is to have most of the information seeded into the dialogue, with the summation pages to let the reader know they're on the right track. It's just turning out to be phenomenally difficult to figure out what the right balance is, between too little or too much.

I have to say that when I start a new book, if I can't get the set up in my head with all the pretty pictures of who's who and what's where by chapter 2, I usually give it up. I see a story more than I actually read it, so I need that info dump pretty early on. It doesn't have to be alot all at once but I like it early enough that I can formulate the setting and characters in my head.

The hardest thing for me is figuring out how to strike that balance, because I really like to be surprised, I like to be dropped in the middle of the action and have to figure out what's going on, but I've quit reading a number of books because I just found them too confusing or I couldn't figure out who the main character was supposed to be.

While I dislike boring infodumps, I do like worldbuilding and knowing the world, and I get annoyed if all is left intentionally vague. I also rather have an infodump than confusion, unless the infodump is really clumsy. Having a mystery and suspense in the plot is one thing, but having to piece together the basic setting and worldbuilding like a puzzle because the author intentionally parcels out any info in frustratingly tiny morsels only works for me if it is the plot, i.e. when a foreign character is also dumped into that world and I follow their POV in the puzzle, like say Farscape, because then it makes sense.

Personally I never minded Tolkien's style. But then I've always been a fan. (Actually LOTR was the first book I fully read in English voluntarily, even though I wasn't fluent at the time, and had to look up a lot of words. Of course it helped to have read it in translation already, still getting through thousands of pages like that

* took some dedication. *g*)

(I accidentally hit the post button too early in my previous reply. *curses*)

Oh dear ... Tolkien is heavy going enough for native English speakers, but the idea of reading it in translation makes my brain melt! I do love his work, but his prose is dense.

Different series take different approaches to seeding information. One of the things I really liked about Firefly is that it never really explained anything -- it just kind of threw you into the world and let you figure things out on your own. But there are times when I just want to know what the hell's going on already. Figuring out when my readers will appreciate the former, versus when they really need the latter ... it's hard!

The main problem I had with Tolkien at first iirc was that the vocabulary wasn't exactly what you learn when you start out in a foreign language, even though I had learned English for about four years then (I was 14 or so), and many words weren't even in the school dictionary I had, and that being prior to common internet access I couldn't look up anything online either. Though really motivation was key to eventual success. I mean, it was much better than what I had to read for school in English class at that time, which was at that time some easy reader simplified version of The Third Man by Graham Green, I think. That was actually more tedious, and I just cheated and read a German translation, because the whole easy reader thing was just stupid, and I was too disinterested in the book to read the non-simplified original, despite it being much shorter and probably easier to read than Tolkien...

Info-dumping is something I struggle with as a writer - although my solution tends to be to simply chop it all out. If it's stuff the characters know - whether it's the political situation, how magic works, that Great-aunt Belula once ran away to the Congo for six months - it's also stuff they're probably not going to be explaining to themselves. I find the more I immerse myself into a character's mindset, I wind up with less info-dumping and more throw-away lines that don't matter to the plot but do matter to the character and world that the plot's being set in.

It's sort of like coming in on the middle of a conversation and just listening. You'll be able to pick up for the most part what's going on, but there's a sense of history, of stuff that went before that informed what's going on/being said now, even if it's never directly referenced or explained. And it's more interesting to the reader (or at least to me, as reader) if I have to pay attention and think while I'm reading.

...And I'm not sure if that's any sort of answer to the question you were asking, but it gave me an excuse to avoid homework for a little longer. ^_^

Do you read Connie Willis? I absolutely love her for that; she's incredibly skilled at seeding information into the story in a natural kind of way.

I generally lean towards the "chop it all out!" school of thought, but then I start wondering if the reader actually needs some more overt context to figure out what's going on. I've run into problems in the past with my original writing being too difficult to read because I relied too heavily on a "sink or swim" approach for the reader, so now I think I might've swung too far the other way.

Finding the happy medium is a difficult thing, but I think a large part of it is even being aware of the potential problem.

I adore Connie Willis, or at least her novels - my library doesn't have any of her short stories. To Say Nothing of the Dog is a perennial favorite.

...um. I just sidetracked myself into rereading the first chapter and a half. That book's dangerous!

That's hard, because if you withhold too much info and then dump it mid-story, it seems too convenient. If you dump it at the beginning, not only is it likely to be looked over, it's easily forgotten. I'd say to distribute it though the story in quick, even bits, bits that are relevant to what it going on at the moment. Tell only the background that is absolutely necessary to the plot, not so much to the character him/herself. Characters can be explained through their actions and reactions. It seems readers like to discover things about their "new friends", just like in real life. Can't lay it out like a map, it wouldn't be interesting.

Now how to do all this? If I knew that I'd be published. LOL!

LOL, yeah, when I figure out the magic secret I'll make a million bucks, but until then ...!

I really hate infodumps at the beginning, because nothing is less interesting than being told a bunch of seemingly useless details about a character or world I haven't even had a chance to get to know yet. It's like the boring date who starts off by telling you his entire life history. It's the reveal of information in the middle that's giving me fits; I want my readers to get a good feel for the history of this complicated conflict, but I hate just having a character sit down and explain it.

Is there a way you can do a sort of flash back, a story within a story?

Ha. Welcome to my world. I have no advice at all. None. I think it's just a matter of trusting that, in the end, it'll all balance itself out.

Okay, now I feel guilty. Hee hee hee. That was evil. I just struggle with this all the time. I can't tell what's too much or too little. I know it's not original fic, but in Desert Orkids I had a chapter where I needed to describe the nature of the government, to throw in the red herring that the murder was related to a struggle for leadership. The first beta who read it had no issues. The second felt like she had hit a wall. I tried to trim and find a middle ground. The first beta told me it wasn't necessary -- that it had been fine. The second thought I had made it worse...

And I sort of figured out that all readers are different. Honestly, some people absorb information like a sponge. There the ones who loved Tolkien, who can read whole memoirs without stopping, can stare at the Discovery channel for hours. Then you've the ones who can't sit through a sitcom, can't read just one book at a time (my friend Mike is reading 5 right now, which boggles me), and get bored at baseball games. My point is that you can't please everyone.

All I try to do is to keep it simple. As much as I can. I think information is fun to a degree -- I really do, because it invites people into a world, makes them feel like they have an insider knowledge -- but it can't be a wall. So, what's a wall? A block of text. I really think a visual block of text will throw off a reader more than the information itself. Break it up, spread it around, try to add a wry statement or two, and it makes the infodump more fun.

I still suck at dealing with the infodump, and still get paranoid about it, and I always will, but that's what I can offer. Hope it helps.

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