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We have a premiere date!
There's a date for the White Collar mid-season premiere now! :D Tuesday, January 17th. So near. Yet so far away.
And now I'm back to wanting the next episode LIKE BURNING, and speculating about what it might contain.
One of the things that makes it tricky to figure out where they're going is that the show is sometimes very good about following proper law-enforcement procedure ... and sometimes it's really not. XD So I'm not quite sure which to expect. I mean, logically, Peter shouldn't be allowed within a hundred miles of the investigation of his wife's kidnapping. He ought to be pulled off it immediately. If they're going for realistic, that's how things ought to go, and it's kind of the direction I'm hoping for. I guess it all depends on where they want the story to go.
And also, a lot of the direction of the episode will depend on what the characters do in the first couple of minutes.
(Oh, show! Why do you stomp on my heart so!)
One thing for sure, though ... if everyone tells everyone else what's going on, the episode is going to be over in like five minutes, because if Mozzie knew Elizabeth was in danger, I really do believe that he'd turn over the treasure for her in a moment. And Neal obviously would. So ... it can't just be as simple as "Neal tells Peter everything, calls Mozzie, and Keller gets the treasure, and everyone is happy". (Unless the main plot turns out to be something entirely different from the cliffhanger scenario, which it might ... they've done it before!) So there's going to have to be a certain amount of continued obfuscation, anger, lies, etc. in order to keep the plot going.
If I were to guess how the first few minutes are going to go, my most likely scenario for the sequence of events is something like this:
* Peter blows up at Neal (*do not waaaaaant* ... though admittedly I don't think it would be OOC for Peter; he's definitely got a temper)
* Neal goes on the defensive and admits nothing ... because right now, the answer to the two most likely questions he would be asked -- "Did you take the treasure" and "Do you know where it is right now" -- is "no", and I don't expect that Peter is going to be in the sort of mood where Neal would feel safe or comfortable confessing to him. (This is another "do not want" ... but again, if Peter goes all feral at him, why would Neal tell him the rest of the truth? It's not going to end well.)
* Peter has Neal arrested, and held to be interrogated. Because at this point, he's going to be expecting Neal to run, and if Elizabeth's safety depends -- Peter thinks -- on keeping Neal nearby, and he doesn't trust Neal to stay, then he's going to make sure Neal physically can't leave. And this solves another problem by keeping Neal from being able to contact Mozzie (assuming Mozzie is contact-able at all right now ...)
* Peter is removed from the case and quite possibly suspended to keep him as far from the investigation as possible. (Seriously, how could they not do this?!)
Yeah, this is pure speculation and what-if (and for the most part, really not things I want to happen at all) ... but I can logically see all of it happening, and following domino by domino, one thing after another. And it would leave them in a really, really bad place: Peter suspended or maybe even fired depending on his level of overreaction, Neal in jail, Mozzie who knows where, and El kidnapped. Which means they're all totally screwed, and now Team Good Guy can get on with FIXING THINGS.
Things I really hope we see in the episode:
* Deliberate contrast of Peter's situation vis-a-vis Elizabeth and Keller, with Neal's loss of Kate to Fowler. After the entire justice vs. revenge thing in mid-season-two, OH MY GOD I want them to bring it up again in this episode, because seriously, Peter is in a totally analogous situation to Neal in season two. And I want to see that dealt with SO BADLY. Justice vs. revenge looks different from that side of the gun, doesn't it, Peter?
* Neal and Mozzie are Big Damn Heroes. I waaaant! Also ... I have trouble imagining anything that could really, truly mend fences quickly other than Neal doing something demonstrably heroic and dangerous.
* Elizabeth is clever and resourceful! I don't actually think she'd escape on her own, but I really want to see her being smart and active in helping her rescuers find her. So far, they've actually done that in most of the kidnap-victim episodes (when Neal was kidnapped, and Peter, and even Mozzie's waitress girlfriend in season two). So I really want to see that with Elizabeth, too.
* I expect Neal and Peter will be on good terms again by the end of the episode, but in the process of getting there, I hope we get callbacks all the way back to the season two finale, rather than sticking purely to the plot/emotional stuff of season three. Because, frankly, without Peter blaming Neal for taking the treasure, nothing that happened in season three makes sense. I don't want to see Peter strung up for it any more than I want Neal strung up for his actions in season three -- for one thing, I really do think that a lot of Peter's reaction in that scene was emotional distress from having just killed Adler, just like I think a lot of Neal's subsequent reaction was emotional distress from Peter's attack on him ... and then there's no turning back and no easy way out. It's just a big knotted downward spiral of two people who really do care about and like each other getting caught up in a series of mistakes that's left them both hurt and angry. And I want to see it treated that way -- neither person's fault specifically, but both of them having done things that are ill-advised, hurtful and unwise.
Hmm. So there's my wish list (disregarding the more self-indulgent part of the wish list, which includes things like PRESUMED DEAD! H/C! ANGST! HUGGING! and is almost certainly not going to happen).
Aaaaand on the flip side, things which I keep seeing in post-finale fic that I don't think are going to happen at all:
* Peter physically attacks Neal.
... yeahhhh, no. Because that's not okay. And if he does, there had better be suspension and/or firing following shortly thereafter.
* Peter and the entire FBI shun Neal for months, forcing him to eat his meals all alone, think that nobody loves him, set his broken arm with pencils, and eventually move to China. (I know that the WC-only fans on my flist are going "... what" but the SGA people will get it. XD)
... because Peter is not five years old. XD And beyond that, Peter doesn't really seem to be a person who holds grudges. I was thinking about that the other day ... Peter is tightly wound, hot-tempered, and wears his emotions on his sleeve -- but he also cools off quickly, and giving people second chances is a recurring theme with him, even someone like Fowler. Heck, in this season, even ... he called "truce" with Neal in the season three premiere even while still totally believing that Neal had had the treasure all along and was openly lying to him. He's going to be hurt, and angry, and probably pretty nasty in the initial blow-up. But once he gets past the initial fury/fear/hurt, and particularly once he knows a few of the mitigating circumstances, I ... just don't think Peter is that much of a bastard, I guess. (Though er, come to think of it, now I'm recalling certain people in my family who have held grudges for YEARS about much smaller things, such as, say, a certain close relative of mine [relationship redacted to protect the guilty] not speaking to me for a year and a half over an email I sent him. So, while I really don't believe that Peter is that petty and small-minded, maybe this isn't as far-fetched as I'd like to convince myself. But I still don't buy the shunning.)
* Neal sells out Mozzie. This is getting to be my second least favorite cliche in post-finale fic (second only to "Peter is a bastard").
... because Neal is not five years old, either. He's not going to throw a friend under the bus to save himself, and he's not going to think "Mozzie did it!" is a valid defense. Yes, it's absolutely true that he had nothing to do with the original theft of the treasure ... and I really hope the whole story comes out; I will be SOOOOO frustrated if Peter never learns the whole truth, because I really want Neal to get credit for that, as well as for choosing to stay in (virtual) prison over pulling off the heist of a lifetime, which is a really incredible turning point for him. But ohhhh, I don't want it to come in the form of Neal insisting that he's completely innocent and throwing all the blame on Mozzie. I think better of him than that. I believe that Neal is a person with flaws, but a fundamentally good person who is capable of becoming a better person. And that's not the action of the person I think he is. He's in a horrible position right now, but I can't imagine him disavowing his own complicity and openly selling out a friend to get out of it.
* Mozzie vanishes and is never seen again. C'mon, seriously? Is this something that people actually think is going to happen ... or want to happen? Or is it just one of those things like June being conveniently out of town in 90% of WC fics for narrative convenience?
* Neal trades himself for Elizabeth as a hostage, in the expectation of his own death. Er, first of all, why would Keller actually want this? He wants the treasure, not Neal. Besides, I think Neal's got way too much self-respect than to throw his life away in a gesture of abject guilt. Again, I think better of him than that. I could see him doing something very risky and angry, like with Fowler and the gun, or something that was calculated to take down Keller while also risking his own life. But Neal is too smart to put his neck on the chopping block without, at the very least, making a pretty good plan for taking Keller out with him.
Er, this isn't meant as a negative commentary on any stories along these lines, or anyone who's written them, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm certainly not trying to single out anybody. Personal opinion is personal, and all of that ... and of course we have no way to know what will actually happen 'til it does. I do get why it might be cathartic or emotionally satisfying to write any of the above. I just ... have opinions about it. XD But I truly hope my opinions don't hurt or offend anyone -- this is what happens when I have a lot of time to speculate, apparently!
... and, also, wow, this got really long! (Heh, I've actually been working on it for two days, off and on, adding things as they occurred to me.) Thoughts?
(ETA: I also just realized that a lot of the above is ... well, for lack of a better way to put it, trying to organize my thoughts on some things about the show and the fanfic that have been bothering me for a while. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say venting, per se, but I definitely feel a lot lighter and less conflicted. So, grain of salt and all of that.)
ETA2: See also apologetic addendum to the last part of this post.
And now I'm back to wanting the next episode LIKE BURNING, and speculating about what it might contain.
One of the things that makes it tricky to figure out where they're going is that the show is sometimes very good about following proper law-enforcement procedure ... and sometimes it's really not. XD So I'm not quite sure which to expect. I mean, logically, Peter shouldn't be allowed within a hundred miles of the investigation of his wife's kidnapping. He ought to be pulled off it immediately. If they're going for realistic, that's how things ought to go, and it's kind of the direction I'm hoping for. I guess it all depends on where they want the story to go.
And also, a lot of the direction of the episode will depend on what the characters do in the first couple of minutes.
(Oh, show! Why do you stomp on my heart so!)
One thing for sure, though ... if everyone tells everyone else what's going on, the episode is going to be over in like five minutes, because if Mozzie knew Elizabeth was in danger, I really do believe that he'd turn over the treasure for her in a moment. And Neal obviously would. So ... it can't just be as simple as "Neal tells Peter everything, calls Mozzie, and Keller gets the treasure, and everyone is happy". (Unless the main plot turns out to be something entirely different from the cliffhanger scenario, which it might ... they've done it before!) So there's going to have to be a certain amount of continued obfuscation, anger, lies, etc. in order to keep the plot going.
If I were to guess how the first few minutes are going to go, my most likely scenario for the sequence of events is something like this:
* Peter blows up at Neal (*do not waaaaaant* ... though admittedly I don't think it would be OOC for Peter; he's definitely got a temper)
* Neal goes on the defensive and admits nothing ... because right now, the answer to the two most likely questions he would be asked -- "Did you take the treasure" and "Do you know where it is right now" -- is "no", and I don't expect that Peter is going to be in the sort of mood where Neal would feel safe or comfortable confessing to him. (This is another "do not want" ... but again, if Peter goes all feral at him, why would Neal tell him the rest of the truth? It's not going to end well.)
* Peter has Neal arrested, and held to be interrogated. Because at this point, he's going to be expecting Neal to run, and if Elizabeth's safety depends -- Peter thinks -- on keeping Neal nearby, and he doesn't trust Neal to stay, then he's going to make sure Neal physically can't leave. And this solves another problem by keeping Neal from being able to contact Mozzie (assuming Mozzie is contact-able at all right now ...)
* Peter is removed from the case and quite possibly suspended to keep him as far from the investigation as possible. (Seriously, how could they not do this?!)
Yeah, this is pure speculation and what-if (and for the most part, really not things I want to happen at all) ... but I can logically see all of it happening, and following domino by domino, one thing after another. And it would leave them in a really, really bad place: Peter suspended or maybe even fired depending on his level of overreaction, Neal in jail, Mozzie who knows where, and El kidnapped. Which means they're all totally screwed, and now Team Good Guy can get on with FIXING THINGS.
Things I really hope we see in the episode:
* Deliberate contrast of Peter's situation vis-a-vis Elizabeth and Keller, with Neal's loss of Kate to Fowler. After the entire justice vs. revenge thing in mid-season-two, OH MY GOD I want them to bring it up again in this episode, because seriously, Peter is in a totally analogous situation to Neal in season two. And I want to see that dealt with SO BADLY. Justice vs. revenge looks different from that side of the gun, doesn't it, Peter?
* Neal and Mozzie are Big Damn Heroes. I waaaant! Also ... I have trouble imagining anything that could really, truly mend fences quickly other than Neal doing something demonstrably heroic and dangerous.
* Elizabeth is clever and resourceful! I don't actually think she'd escape on her own, but I really want to see her being smart and active in helping her rescuers find her. So far, they've actually done that in most of the kidnap-victim episodes (when Neal was kidnapped, and Peter, and even Mozzie's waitress girlfriend in season two). So I really want to see that with Elizabeth, too.
* I expect Neal and Peter will be on good terms again by the end of the episode, but in the process of getting there, I hope we get callbacks all the way back to the season two finale, rather than sticking purely to the plot/emotional stuff of season three. Because, frankly, without Peter blaming Neal for taking the treasure, nothing that happened in season three makes sense. I don't want to see Peter strung up for it any more than I want Neal strung up for his actions in season three -- for one thing, I really do think that a lot of Peter's reaction in that scene was emotional distress from having just killed Adler, just like I think a lot of Neal's subsequent reaction was emotional distress from Peter's attack on him ... and then there's no turning back and no easy way out. It's just a big knotted downward spiral of two people who really do care about and like each other getting caught up in a series of mistakes that's left them both hurt and angry. And I want to see it treated that way -- neither person's fault specifically, but both of them having done things that are ill-advised, hurtful and unwise.
Hmm. So there's my wish list (disregarding the more self-indulgent part of the wish list, which includes things like PRESUMED DEAD! H/C! ANGST! HUGGING! and is almost certainly not going to happen).
Aaaaand on the flip side, things which I keep seeing in post-finale fic that I don't think are going to happen at all:
* Peter physically attacks Neal.
... yeahhhh, no. Because that's not okay. And if he does, there had better be suspension and/or firing following shortly thereafter.
* Peter and the entire FBI shun Neal for months, forcing him to eat his meals all alone, think that nobody loves him, set his broken arm with pencils, and eventually move to China. (I know that the WC-only fans on my flist are going "... what" but the SGA people will get it. XD)
... because Peter is not five years old. XD And beyond that, Peter doesn't really seem to be a person who holds grudges. I was thinking about that the other day ... Peter is tightly wound, hot-tempered, and wears his emotions on his sleeve -- but he also cools off quickly, and giving people second chances is a recurring theme with him, even someone like Fowler. Heck, in this season, even ... he called "truce" with Neal in the season three premiere even while still totally believing that Neal had had the treasure all along and was openly lying to him. He's going to be hurt, and angry, and probably pretty nasty in the initial blow-up. But once he gets past the initial fury/fear/hurt, and particularly once he knows a few of the mitigating circumstances, I ... just don't think Peter is that much of a bastard, I guess. (Though er, come to think of it, now I'm recalling certain people in my family who have held grudges for YEARS about much smaller things, such as, say, a certain close relative of mine [relationship redacted to protect the guilty] not speaking to me for a year and a half over an email I sent him. So, while I really don't believe that Peter is that petty and small-minded, maybe this isn't as far-fetched as I'd like to convince myself. But I still don't buy the shunning.)
* Neal sells out Mozzie. This is getting to be my second least favorite cliche in post-finale fic (second only to "Peter is a bastard").
... because Neal is not five years old, either. He's not going to throw a friend under the bus to save himself, and he's not going to think "Mozzie did it!" is a valid defense. Yes, it's absolutely true that he had nothing to do with the original theft of the treasure ... and I really hope the whole story comes out; I will be SOOOOO frustrated if Peter never learns the whole truth, because I really want Neal to get credit for that, as well as for choosing to stay in (virtual) prison over pulling off the heist of a lifetime, which is a really incredible turning point for him. But ohhhh, I don't want it to come in the form of Neal insisting that he's completely innocent and throwing all the blame on Mozzie. I think better of him than that. I believe that Neal is a person with flaws, but a fundamentally good person who is capable of becoming a better person. And that's not the action of the person I think he is. He's in a horrible position right now, but I can't imagine him disavowing his own complicity and openly selling out a friend to get out of it.
* Mozzie vanishes and is never seen again. C'mon, seriously? Is this something that people actually think is going to happen ... or want to happen? Or is it just one of those things like June being conveniently out of town in 90% of WC fics for narrative convenience?
* Neal trades himself for Elizabeth as a hostage, in the expectation of his own death. Er, first of all, why would Keller actually want this? He wants the treasure, not Neal. Besides, I think Neal's got way too much self-respect than to throw his life away in a gesture of abject guilt. Again, I think better of him than that. I could see him doing something very risky and angry, like with Fowler and the gun, or something that was calculated to take down Keller while also risking his own life. But Neal is too smart to put his neck on the chopping block without, at the very least, making a pretty good plan for taking Keller out with him.
Er, this isn't meant as a negative commentary on any stories along these lines, or anyone who's written them, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm certainly not trying to single out anybody. Personal opinion is personal, and all of that ... and of course we have no way to know what will actually happen 'til it does. I do get why it might be cathartic or emotionally satisfying to write any of the above. I just ... have opinions about it. XD But I truly hope my opinions don't hurt or offend anyone -- this is what happens when I have a lot of time to speculate, apparently!
... and, also, wow, this got really long! (Heh, I've actually been working on it for two days, off and on, adding things as they occurred to me.) Thoughts?
(ETA: I also just realized that a lot of the above is ... well, for lack of a better way to put it, trying to organize my thoughts on some things about the show and the fanfic that have been bothering me for a while. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say venting, per se, but I definitely feel a lot lighter and less conflicted. So, grain of salt and all of that.)
ETA2: See also apologetic addendum to the last part of this post.
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I guess I might have misunderstood the end of the last episode though. El was kidnapped? I thought it was an imagination sequence of what could happen - life flashing before your eyes sort of thing.
Whether real or imaginary, Peter's look at the end of the episode was heartbreaking.
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The thought hadn't even occurred to me that it was meant to be metaphorical. I ... don't think so? But I guess we'll find out in January. :D
And I'm glad you enjoyed it! I think I've fallen as hard for this show as I did for SGA in its heyday, which is interesting, because it's the first time I've gotten that deep into a non-sci-fi fandom. But there is just something about the characters and the writing that's really won me over. :D
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LOL whut? Oh, God, I can totally see it written (McKay, right?).
I'm pretty excited about getting WC back... it's the first source of fic that I check nowadays, and I really miss having new canon to play with!
I am so hoping for some recklessly h/c redeeming moment where Neal does his very damn best to stop Keller and save El (or! or! save Peter from doing something stupid! literary symmetry! Symmetry everywhere!!). Also hugs. This show is pretty good with giving us affection between characters, unlike other shows coughSPNcough. Anyway, I'm not actually expecting Peter and Neal to be on good terms again at the end of the episode. I'd prefer it if they dealt with the situation and brought the circumstances regarding the loot out in the open, yeah, but set it as a starting point to a re-build of trust, and have them still weary of each other but *wanting* to make it all better and knowing that this time it *can* get all better!
Also, let's not forget Peter's mentor. Methinks there's still meat in that storyline *nods*
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Yep, McKay. You've never seen the Post-Trinity Phenomenon fic list? :D Well now you have! (It even has a page on fanlore.) Apparently that is an actual scene from an actual fic (though I haven't read it, but I'll take their word for it *g*).
I am so hoping for some recklessly h/c redeeming moment where Neal does his very damn best to stop Keller and save El (or! or! save Peter from doing something stupid! literary symmetry! Symmetry everywhere!!).
Yes! This! I want ALL THE THINGS. :D
The show really does do a rather lovely job of giving us affection, heart-to-hearts and friendship moments with the characters ... sometimes. And then it doesn't. So I'm not sure which to expect! But usually there are at least a few sweet little character moments. After the last couple of episodes, I need a few!
Anyway, I'm not actually expecting Peter and Neal to be on good terms again at the end of the episode.
I don't necessarily think they should be, but I think they're going to be. At least that's my expectation ... based on how quickly they dealt with that sort of thing in past episodes where there's been a trust rift between Peter and Neal (like the episode with the vault). But come to think of it, they didn't just instantly patch things up in the first episode of this season, so perhaps they won't here either ...
I think one of the things that gets to me about Peter and Neal (in a good way, I mean) is that even when they are somewhat on the outs with each other, there's still a noticeable layer of trust and affection ... they still have bantery moments, they still work together well. They can oscillate between the two poles of trust and not-trust very quickly. And it doesn't really feel (to me at least) like the show not dealing with things; it just seems to be them, and the particular weird understanding that they have.
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Also, if Mozzie doesn't come to Elizabeth's rescue, that is a waste of dramatic potential. Because Mozzie's been having his own little darkside arc, so he needs this to yank him back to the reality of the consequences of his actions as well, and for Mozzie, there's no better lever than Elizabeth.
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I have generally been pretty happy with how the writers have handled the ongoing tension between Peter and Neal without losing sight of the friendship too -- as the actors have said in interviews, they can't ever trust each other completely, or the show would be over *g* -- so I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with it next!
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*rofl* Oh, Trinity... man, how I wish I'd actually been in the fandom when SGA was on the air.
I am SO PSYCHED about White Collar coming back in January. I need to finish my rewatch but holy crap there has been so much shiny on live tv lately that it kind of got shoved aside.
My Wish List is similar to yours. I had not thought about the contrast to Neal losing Kate before, and YES. THAT.
And I really, REALLY want a) Elizabeth scenes and b) Elizabeth to be involved in her own rescue, or at least smart like Peter and Neal know she is, and able to nudge The Plan along, because you know Neal and Peter will have The Plan.
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*g* I am not convinced you actually do, because people were genuinely SERIOUS about it. These stories were not in jest! That was what made it so hilarious for the rest of us, I suppose...
I am SO PSYCHED about White Collar coming back in January.
Oh yes, me too! I am SO looking forward to this. White Collar is my shiny happy place show that broke my heart just a little bit ... but I have a lot of confidence in WC to fix my broken fangirl heart! At the very least, I really do feel like the creator and writers are as fond of the characters as the fans are, and just as invested in them.
And I am SO hoping for clever, resourceful Elizabeth! Usually the show doesn't let me down in that area, so I'm hoping it'll keep up the trend. *crosses fingers*
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*quietly dies*
No, I can't see that happening - it'd be OOC for both the chars and for the show itself.
I rather do hope Neal does do something reckless and self-sacrifice-y in the pursuit to save El - like you say, I can't see him trading himself unless it's either part of a larger plan, or spur-of-the-moment, he sees Keller with a gun to El's head and throws himself into the fray - but yeah. Either Big Damn Heroics or crazy reckless heroics or both, or all, but Neal needs to do something extravagant to prove whose side he's really on!
PRESUMED DEAD! H/C! ANGST! HUGGING!
From your
lipslj to TPTB's ears! *hopehopehope*no subject
Mmm-hmm, yes, SELF-SACRIFICE FOR THE WIIIIIIIN. *crosses fingers* But, yeah ... not a casual, throwing his life away out of guilt and angst sort of sacrifice. That's ... not Neal. At least I don't think so.
... er, I do hope that I'm not high-expectationing myself into disappointment with the episode. I'm trying to hope for (a rather long list of) certain things, but at the same time, pitching my actual expectations so low that it's almost certain to surpass them. We'll see if it works. *g*
But I do hope that I get at least an item or two off my wish list! The show has really been h/c-lite this season ... we've gotten one or two nice h/c eps in each of the previous seasons (satisfying to me, at least) but this season hasn't really delivered yet ... which means they're overdue for it, right? :D
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I have many wishes for the next episode. Most of which I know we won't get. But I hope for at least one or two items off my list. :D
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I have read this story, more than once, and I don't want to read it any more. No one can convince me Peter, Diana, or Jones would behave that way for months on end, let alone all three of them (and everyone else in the office). I've started bailing when I realize a story is set up this way now. (A few have been more subtle, with Peter not giving Neal the silent treatment but realizing that he has been a bit distant, and that I can see.)
I'm worried. I'm not convinced they've been true this season to the characters established in the first two seasons, and I'm not sure how they're going to fix the whole situation.
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As I suppose you know, I haven't felt let down this season, so I expect I'll be pretty happy with whatever they do as long as we get some good friendship scenes out of it. But I really hope that whatever they do will be satisfying for you as well, or at least help to fix some of the issues that you've had with the show.
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Yes! I dimly remembering reading a story along those lines and finding it hilarious!
I'm glad you aren't feeling let down. I think I built the show up a little too much in my own mind. (I'm really hung up on Nazi treasure.)
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1 - Peter and Co freeze Neal out. I don't think there is a writer cum fan of the show who actually believes that this is going to happen. The whole premise of the show is the buddy/bromance/unlikely friendship between the FBI agent and the conman.
But that being said, there is something quite emotionally satisfying about telling a story about a serious breach in this friendship and a long journey towards healing, which you have acknowledged.
2 - Neal "sells" Mozzie out and/or Mozzie disappears with the treasure. Again, there is little likelihood of this happening. Almost less likelihood than Peter freezing out Neal.
I think there are a few reasons why we have seen a lot of these types of stories.
The first I can lay right at Tim DeKay's feet - in an interview that was released right after Countdown, he talked about how Peter has a lot of rage against Neal for Elizabeth's kidnapping. A lot... That's definitely been played out over and over again.
The second reason has more to do with how the show has handled serious emotional issues in the past.
Basically - they haven't.
Kate's murder? Hmmm - Neal gets thrown back into prison. Peter barely ever acknowledges Neal's grief.
Peter sees a plane blow up, killing at least three people, almost killing his friend? No consequences, reaction or emotional impact at all.
Neal steals a gun and almost murders someone, practically starts an international incident? No consequences either - except that he gets sent to his room.
Peter shoots and kills someone? Never mentioned.
The fans that participate in this community have made an emotional investment in the show and they are looking for some type of emotional payoff. Some of cliches that you mention are ways that we as fans deal with this lack of follow through. In fandom parlance, we are getting the hurt, but never seeing the comfort.
What do I think will happen in S3.11?
- Neal and Moz will engineer a heroic rescue that shifts the blame for the theft of the treasure from them to Keller.
- Elizabeth helps effectuate her own rescue, has little or no trauma from her kidnapping.
- Peter and Neal have an all-too-brief moment and the balance of the bromance is restored. Moz has little difficulty in sacrificing the treasure because his love and affection for Elizabeth Burke and his friendship with Neal is worth far more than mere billions.
The only consequence: Neal's work-release deal is extended - he gets another few years in the anklet.
For what it's worth, I enjoy reading and writing stories that cross both lines when the stories are well written.
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Having said that, I do understand that people go to fanfic for all the cliches and over-the-top stuff that pro fic doesn't provide! And there's nothing wrong with that, whether it's sex pollen or smarmy h/c or ... whatever. I have written totally self-indulgent, gratuitous h/c because that's where my id was at, and I'm sure there have been people who read it and went "... what is she on about now, and what show is she watching, 'cause it's sure not the one I'm watching." XD And there has been stuff I've really enjoyed, and needed at the time, that was so self-indulgent I'm embarrassed to admit even reading it! So I really don't want it to come across like I'm bashing other fans' tastes, or need for catharsis, or what-have-you. I know that we're all watching slightly different flavors of the show, and we all come to fandom for different reasons and in search of different things.
Having said that, though, the specific reason why all of the above cliches bother me -- and I really am not trying to single out any specific writer; I've seen them all over ff.net and AO3 and LJ -- is because I feel like they're unfair to at least one or more of the characters, bordering on character-bashing, and that's not what *I* come to fanfic for. Watching the characters behave like petty, vindictive bastards, or grovel for the forgiveness of someone who does nothing but heap abuse on them, leaves me liking them less, rather than more. Peter being an emotionally abusive tyrant, Neal being a wrecked doormat who puts up with weeks of abuse because he feels he's just that worthless, or throwing Mozzie to the wolves as a sacrifice in order to win his way back into Peter's good graces ... these are not the characters I fell in love with.
I don't mind stories in which the characters are at odds, and I would love to find more post-finale stories that, to my own reader's eye, treat all the characters with dignity and respect, in which everyone's hurt, anger and resentment is treated fairly. I don't mind seeing Peter get angry as long as Neal is allowed to get angry right back; I don't mind seeing Neal (or Peter) carry some guilt as long as there's some recognition that guilt is all well and good but it's what you do afterwards that counts. I'd like to see more stories about Neal being angry with Mozzie for leaving, and Mozzie with Neal for staying, and the two of them having to work through their mutual abandonment issues. I'd like to see more stories in which Peter's hurt is treated as something other than an excuse to have him hurt Neal, then realize what a bastard he is. Basically I like the characters' prickly push-pull in the show and I love fic that develops conflict between them without anyone needing to be punished or to be a bad guy or a woobie.
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Also, this (I'm responding from bottom to top -- I'm a bit eccentric. You get used to me).
So many fics are borderline Peter-bashing. They make him be a meanie or really just an asshole, even if it has nothing to do with the treasure, and he's never been portrayed that way. He has a hot temper, but usually he can move beyond his anger to figure things out.
Granted, the situation with his wife being kidnapped, and he basically just had his heart stomped on with regards to Neal -- Peter has invested a lot of time and emotion into helping Neal. Even the possibility that Neal may have chosen shiny objects over friendship must have cut deep.
Sorry, it's just I think that everything Peter has done for Neal is often over-looked in order to make Neal more of a woobie, and that's a disservice to both characters.
But that's just me. :D :D
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I do acknowledge that Peter's jokes are horrible, and sometimes maybe not always the nicest. -pet pets- I love the characters, including all their flaws. \o/
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For me, the best shunning stories explore Neal's sense of guilt. In the show, Peter gets mad - Neal gets mad. Peter gets suspicious - Neal gets devious. But you don't see Peter disappointed or Neal guilty. And given Neal's background and his constant reinvention of himself, I'm not sure he's ever had to deal with the fallout and disappointment of failing people who care about him. Stories in which he is shunned, however over the top, address that need to see emotional growth in Neal that the show has been pretty light on providing.
That being said, in my ideal world season 3.5 has Elizabeth saving herself, Neal learning to stay and deal with the consequences, Peter discovering that righteous is not the same as right and Moz keeping enough of the unidentifiable loot to finance living somewhere other than Neal's sofa or a storage unit. January can't come soon enough!
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BWAHA. XD But no one except the SGA people would get it ...
I do understand the desire for emotional growth in Neal (and Peter too for that matter). I suppose that for me, the guilty-Neal stories don't really supply that, because I don't see guilty wallowing (as it's being done in these stories, anyway) as necessarily any closer to real emotional growth than no guilt at all, especially when it's accompanied by a generous helping of shaming from his so-called friends. *g* The thing about it, I suppose, is that I really love the push-pull dynamic from the show -- Peter pushes, Neal pushes back. And stories in which Peter pushes (hard) and Neal doesn't push back, but just goes limp ... there's something really off about it for me. There's so much potential for abuse in the amount of power that Peter has over Neal, and what makes it work is that Peter (usually) has enough restraint and discretion to know when not to force him, and Neal pushes back when he needs to. Stories where they lose that balance irk me, though I think it would irk me a lot less if Neal would fight back -- if the author's gonna write Peter as an abusive jerk, I'd at least like the characters to understand that it is abusive and wrong, and for Neal to get angry about it ...
I agree that Neal probably doesn't have a whole lot of experience at sticking around and fixing things -- if he knew he screwed up in one place, he'd leave it behind and go somewhere else. It's a really big thing for him that he's built relationships here that are worth working hard for, because it's something that he hasn't had in the past. And I do like the idea of seeing that dealt with in fic, with all the attendant angst ... it's just that the way it's being done isn't working for me, I guess.
Possibly I should stop talking about everything that my ideal post-finale fic doesn't contain, figure out what I want in it, and write it myself. *g*
But here's hoping season 3.5 has character growth and character interaction galore. :D
...and Moz keeping enough of the unidentifiable loot to finance living somewhere other than Neal's sofa or a storage unit.
Somewhat randomly, I'm pretty sure this is a lifestyle choice he makes, not a lack of funds. Prior to ending up strapped for cash in season three, he'd obviously had quite a bit of money at his discretion (being able to come up with 10K or buy a bakery or acquire a PLANE at the drop of a hat, say); I think it's just part of his "travel light, don't get tied down, don't ever let them know where you sleep" mentality. Even if they did keep the loot and run off to the island, I expect he'd still be sponging off his friends and making odd little hidey-holes in weird places. *g*
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Even if they did keep the loot and run off to the island, I expect he'd still be sponging off his friends and making odd little hidey-holes in weird places. *g*
I see tree houses, and Tuesday is a really pimped out cave behind a waterfall, and the there's various tiny islands he goes to during the rest of the week, except for Monday which is a submarine converted into a dojo. Gah, now I want fic about this! ;)
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I complained above about not really wanting to see fic in which Mozzie vanishes and doesn't come back, but this would be a variation on it that I could totally get behind -- if, say, Neal shows up a year or two later (in a much better place, emotionally), trying to find him, and discovers, well, what you just described ... basically Pirates of the Caribbean meets Indiana Jones, Mozzie style. :D
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I definitely think theory number two will be the direction they go. Being painfully realistic is too boring ;) More than that, though, this show always gets things back on track, and that means doing what will ensure that happens.
Unless this time they don't... eep!o_O
My own wish is for the gang to do something clever but also risky to get El back. I... don't really see El saving herself but I do hope they show us her holding her own at least. I'm really hoping for some good Neal and Keller interaction, and that it doesn't end up as just Peter chasing Keller down and Keller getting away again (I mean, if Keller does get away that will be fine - live to be a bad guy another day and all - I just want Neal and him to really butt heads before that happens).
And I want, want, want so bad for it to be acknowledged that Neal chose to stay. One thing I've really disliked about some of the Countdown aftermath fic is that no one seems to acknowledge this. They either ignore it or treat it as not a big deal. And that bugs me, because it is such a big deal on so many levels. As I told one person, were this season one, Neal would have taken the treasure and run, no compunctions, as soon as he found Kate. This season's Neal chose to stay. He had everything he'd ever wanted (well, sans Kate) and he waffled about it until finally saying no.
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I'm crossing my fingers for hero!Neal and hero!Moz, though I do hope Peter's not left out of it completely; rather than Neal & Moz pursuing their own plan, and Peter doing his thing somewhere else, I'd really like to see some cooperation between all three of them in bringing Keller down (temporarily or permanently, however it works out).
And I want, want, want so bad for it to be acknowledged that Neal chose to stay. One thing I've really disliked about some of the Countdown aftermath fic is that no one seems to acknowledge this. They either ignore it or treat it as not a big deal. And that bugs me, because it is such a big deal on so many levels. As I told one person, were this season one, Neal would have taken the treasure and run, no compunctions, as soon as he found Kate. This season's Neal chose to stay. He had everything he'd ever wanted (well, sans Kate) and he waffled about it until finally saying no.
Oh, yes, this! It's a huge thing for him. When it comes right down to it, that was one of the most pivotal Neal scenes in the entire three seasons. Because yes, I agree with you -- I mean, he actually did that at the end of the first season: he was offered more or less exactly what he was offered in this episode (plus Kate) and was absolutely going to go for it. And here, he had the same offer, and turned it down, even though he was risking a lot by doing so.
I also find it weird that a lot of the post-finale fics seem to be written by Neal fans, and yet seem to leave out so much of his agency as a person, and so much of what makes him Neal to me (much as the post-Trinity fics were written by McKay fans, and yet featured a bland, colorless version of him that was stripped of everything that made him fun for me).
... I suppose that when it comes right down to it, I really don't see the show the same way as people who aren't seeing character growth in the characters, especially Neal. I can understand wanting more than we're getting. And it's subtle. It's not really in your face. But when I'm writing them, I do have to decide whether I'm writing the versions of the characters from seasons one, two or three (even if it doesn't really matter for the plot). Because it does matter for the way they relate to each other, and the decisions they make. And the show does a lot of neat little callbacks to earlier episodes. That's one of the things that makes me hope they contrast Neal/Kate with Peter/El in the upcoming episode, because I do think that this episode seems to be deliberately contrasting Neal's decision with the different one he made at the end of season one, and I get the feeling that the show's writers do think about that sort of thing.
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I'll admit to liking some woobie!Neal fic because, if done decently enough, it does satisfy a couple of cravings. But, yeah, even as candy it still gets tiresome, because this isn't who the characters are and you know this isn't how it's going to play out, and that makes you crave something that goes beyond the id-satisfying like crazy. In other words, yes to everything you said :D
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This. So much. Sometimes I read fanfics, or fan opinions on a character, and I wonder if we're watching the same show.
I am not, for the record, stating that I am excellent at making the characters IC, but I think as far as viewing the characters, even the ones I adore the most, I have a fairly clear head.
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I think I've seen a few of these around, but instead of pencils, Neal is sick/dying and no one sees or cares until it's too late. :p :p :p :p People like Neal to be a victim, and having the whole world hate on Neal, the innocent victim of bad circumstances, makes people feel good. ;)
It's one of my least favorite tropes.
I has theories about the Season 3 premier:
- Peter is supposed to be enraged at Neal. I think that Peter will (rightfully) angry that Neal misled him, and because he will be deeply hurt that it looks like Neal had chosen treasure over friendship.
- Neal will come clean. This will abate, but not dismiss, Peter's anger. Peter will be furious, but will be too focused on saving Elizabeth to care.
- Peter will bend the rules. I am very hopeful that he will not break all the rules, because that will contradict everything we've learned about Peter.
- Neal and Moz will con Keller.
- Elizabeth had better have some role in saving herself. I'll be mad if she doesn't.
- Once El is rescued, Peter will relax a little. He will not forgive Neal easily -- and Neal shouldn't be. By the next episode, however, things may be strained, but will have settled down into an uneasy truce that is almost-but-not the way things were in the beginning of Season 2.
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I do think some anger from Peter's direction is justified. But so is a certain amount of pushback from Neal's direction as well; I wouldn't expect Peter to come down on Neal without Neal fighting back, and for Peter to continue to do so when Neal isn't fighting back (as sometimes seen in fic) just makes him a bully, which I don't like to see.
... oh, I don't know. I'm definitely looking forward to January, and finding out for sure. :D
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He wouldn't treat Neal or Mozzie the same until El was back in his arms, at the very least.
I think Peter's anger is pretty justified at this point -- he was wrong initially, and Neal did push back then, but now a lot of this situation is the result of Neal's actions. I hesitate to use the phrase "this situation is Neal's fault", because ultimately, while Neal's actions may have sort of paved the way for Keller to go that particular route, the decision to kidnap Elizabeth is Keller's choice.
Anywho, that's my long-winded, totally unnecessary opinion on the matter.