More thoughts on the best friend thing...

[sholio]

I'll admit that (being the Sheppard & McKay friendship freak that I am) I got a pretty severe twinge at the "... closest thing to a best friend" line in "Sunday". But the more I thought about it and discussed it online with various people, the more I came to realize that I'm taking a much too narrow look at human relationships. Here's a distillation of some of the random thoughts I've been having over the course of the day ...

Someone (alas, I forget who) in a recent comment said that it's entirely possible for someone to have more than one best friend. This is totally correct ... and you can also have a network of close friends without having any one specific friend who lays claim to that title.

As much as I adore the whole concept of "best friends", to some extent I think the idea of a One True Friend is as much a media invention as the idea of One True Fated Love who fulfills all your emotional needs ... and about as likely.

How many people in real life have one True Best Friend and no other particularly close friendships in their life? Damned few of them, I would guess! It might work on a show like Sentinel or Supernatural where the characters don't really seem to have much of a social life outside each other, but in real life, that's a pretty darned lonely way to live your life. One of the things that's really neat about the Atlantis ensemble cast is the way that each character has their own unique network of friends, and not just one or two people that they always hang out with. In fact, "Sunday" specifically pointed this out in Ronon's case, when Sheppard asks him if he ever hangs out with anyone but Sheppard and Teyla after a year and a half. That's a very narrow social existence, and the show recognizes this. Even Sheppard, who's not exactly Mr. Social Intelligence, recognizes this.

Thinking about my own life, there are four different people that I think could reasonably lay claim to the title of "my best friend" -- my sister, my husband, and two close friends of different genders who aren't related to me -- but I don't specifically think of any one of them that way. I talk to my sister on the phone almost constantly, and cherish the infrequent visits that we have (she lives very far away from me), but we tend to start seriously annoying each other when we're together for more than a few hours. My husband ... I spend almost all my waking hours with the man and can relate to him on some topics (political debates, for example) much more readily than to my touchier sister -- but he has no clue about certain areas of my life (fanfic, for example). So which one's better, which one's closer? Neither one -- they're both important to me, I couldn't choose. And these are just the people I can think of that might fit my definition of "best friend" in various ways, not to leave out all the other ones I love or respect or argue with or enjoy the company of -- my parents, my brother, my close friends at work, my online friends, my slash-fan friend who was wonderful as a confidante during a very difficult time in my life several years ago.

What's the definition of a best friend? Is it the person you confide in, the person you hang out and pal around with, the person who knows you best and longest, the person you love most who doesn't know you well at all? Those could all be different people.

The fact that SGA has captured this sort of ambiguity in human relationships while still displaying the obvious closeness of the characters is really wonderful to me. And strange as it seems, of all the people that we know on Atlantis, Rodney's probably got the most wide and varied group of friends. Rodney telling Carson "You're the closest thing I have to a best friend" doesn't belittle his relationship with Sheppard -- it just means that Carson is the person who most closely fits Rodney's personal definition of "best friend". So maybe he doesn't give his friendship with Sheppard that particular status in his own mind. But that doesn't change the *reality* of his friendship with Sheppard, the strength and depth of it that's repeatedly been shown through three seasons. And, conversely, just because he seems to spend much of his time with Sheppard, doesn't mean that his other friends aren't important to him -- something which is all too easy to happen in fanfic, where the writer tends to play up their favorite relationships at the expense of others.

I don't know about the rest of you, but something that seems to happen to me a LOT is the conscious realization that I've been neglecting one or another of the important relationships in my life. Maybe I've been spending all my time on the phone to my sister, but haven't called my brother in weeks. Maybe I'll realize that it's been a long time since I called up my closest friend from college and his wife and asked if they want to have lunch. The characters on Atlantis, with their many and varied relationships, have to strike this balance too. And in Rodney's case, obviously it took losing Carson for him to realize that he hasn't been spending as much time with Carson lately as he should have been. This doesn't mean he regrets spending time with Sheppard or Zelenka. It's just that not everybody can get equal shares of our busy lives.

It's not all or nothing.

Comments

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

Reading your musings on this has really helped me. That one did throw me sideways somewhat - being the utter believer in the John and Rodney friensdhip that I am.

Still, what you said is actually an extension of the 'accidental, unaware' nature of John and Rodney's friendship. Like you said, Carson is the one who best fills Rodney's definition of a best friend - he simply would never think of Sheppard (still using his surname) that way.

And again, sure we saw John and Rodney playing The Game - but it would seem that when John hangs out with Ronon, Rodney is not there - Rodney was not on the (very short) list of people Ronon hangs out with - and of course not - what do those two have in common? Doesn't mean they're not friends, but they're not that close - and they don't need to be. John and Rodney have a wider spectrum of friends, and certain friends that don't mix - after the camping/hunting debacle, can you see Ronon and Zelenka hanging out together?!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Like you said, Carson is the one who best fills Rodney's definition of a best friend - he simply would never think of Sheppard (still using his surname) that way.

I think this is the crux of the whole deal, is that this is how Rodney defines it, although in actual PRACTICE, it appears that his relationship with Sheppard fits all the earmarks of a best-friend-ship. They just don't appear to realize it.

And again, sure we saw John and Rodney playing The Game - but it would seem that when John hangs out with Ronon, Rodney is not there - Rodney was not on the (very short) list of people Ronon hangs out with - and of course not - what do those two have in common? Doesn't mean they're not friends, but they're not that close

Again ... yes ... exactly. While I think that all of the cast are friends with each other in pretty much every conceivable combination, the strength of those friendships (and what they get out of those friendships) varies from individual to individual. John and Rodney do not have an identical circle of friends. Take Zelenka, for example: he's one of Rodney's closest friends, but probably not one of John's. We know from the flashback in "No Man's Land" that John does pal around with Rodney and Zelenka on occasion, and he's friendly with Radek, but there's no reason to think that the two of them hang out very much when Rodney's not around; they just don't have anything in common. Similarly, it's unlikely that Rodney spends much of his leisure time with Teyla and Ronon; why would he? Yet they *are* friends and "Tao" made it very obvious how important they are to him. Even though Rodney is not on Sheppard's list of people that Ronon hangs out with (and why would he be?) we've seen clearly in both "Tao" and "Sunday" (as well as elsewhere) that Ronon cares quite a lot about McKay and is very protective of him.

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate the variety and realism of it. Yeah, there's a little part of me that wants John and Rodney to be self-described and obvious best friends. But that's just not the relationship they have. And part of what makes them so neat is that they *aren't* the be-all and end-all of each other's existence ... and yet they clearly spend a heck of a lot of time with each other.

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

I also think that Rodney may think of Carson as his best friend in part because Carson was his first friend.

I also think that in many ways his relationship with Carson was an easier one. Don't get me wrong, I love the John & Rodney relationship but it is not an easy one. Even with the bickering back and forth with Carson, I do get the feeling that was a calmer and more steady relationship.

But I also think that Rodney state of mine had a great deal to with his comment. He was trying to deal with what had to overwhelming grief (something he not use to) and trying to sort out his feelings and why he is feeling that way. He is also trying to say goodbye this person who was so important to him. It could be that he figured that Carson was his best friend because that would be only person he would feel this bad about.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

All good points.

I love how it's possible to put so MANY different interpretations on the whole thing. And no matter which version is closer to reality (er ... reality considering that it's a fictional show) it's pretty clear that the situation *is* complicated, and Rodney and Sheppard obviously have a close relationship even assuming (a big assumption, IMHO) that they aren't precisely best friends.

And like I said in my other post, my first explanation (well, after the initial OW of it all) was that Rodney had decided that Carson was his best friend due to Carson being his first truly close friend ... an opinion that he didn't change even as his relationships with others changed. For one thing, I've known people who have done that -- people who went on insisting that their best friend was a given person even though they didn't spend much time together anymore.

You also make a VERY good point that Rodney is hardly objective on the matter of Carson right now. He's grieving and guilty and just in horrible, horrible emotional tatters. (Poor Rodney!) And the way that he sees all the people around him is going to be deeply colored by this.

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

yea, I agree fully. I'm in the same boat and was also thrown by the comment. And thank you for your well reasoned thoughts. Makes sense. And very true. I have one person I consider 'best friend', but several, close friends who I also spend a lot of time with who are probably also/could be/are the same really.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! I'm glad I made sense -- at least some amount of sense!

Human relationships are complicated. And they change. And sometimes we don't notice them changing, or see them for what they really are. And often they're colored by our preconceived notions of what MAKES a friend or best friend. That's what makes them interesting!

Trying to distill them down to a single description, in a case like this, does them a disservice.

[derry667.livejournal.com]

LOL! So we've unintentionally conjured up the term OTBF? Like OTP but with best friends?

I hadn't really thought about the Real Life equivalents, but have to say that I too have several people that I'm really close too, rather than one singular person that fulfills the role. And come to think of it, throughout my life, I've used the phrase "one of my best friends" frequently, but I don't think I've ever said "my very best friend".

Maybe this is why I've never really got on board with the OTP mentality. It is, by it's very nature, exclusionary whereas my views of human relationship would appear to be fundamentally not exclusionary. Hmmm... this is very interesting...

What I was going to say about the whole Rodney-saying-that-Carson-was-his-best-friend thing was that I think what bugged me most was how it was so blatant that it made it seem tokenistic. Probably not the case, but it almost seemed like a consolation prize from the writers - "Sorry, we killed you off, but you are Rodney's best friend."

I've come to thnk that the real ditching of the "show, don't tell" thing strips the sentiment of any real depth and significance. But you know me and my obsession with the obscure and understated. LOL! If it's directly spoken, how can it really mean something? Nah, it has to be unspoken or at least understated to carry any weight with me!

[kalikahuntress.livejournal.com]

I think you just nailed what didn't work for me with that line, it was tokenistic.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

What I was going to say about the whole Rodney-saying-that-Carson-was-his-best-friend thing was that I think what bugged me most was how it was so blatant that it made it seem tokenistic. Probably not the case, but it almost seemed like a consolation prize from the writers - "Sorry, we killed you off, but you are Rodney's best friend

Ha! I just went off in your LJ about this! Sort of. I won't repeat myself, but basically, this episode felt like the anti-Gero episode to me! It was like his evil twin was writing it. His episodes are normally great with characterization and very subtle on the character relationships, and this was ham-handed and just all WRONG for the characters.

The "best friend" line wouldn't have bothered me if it'd been a) in character and b) consistent with regards to canon. But it was neither one! And I think that's why I'm feeling the need to rationalize it so hard.

"One of my best friends" would have worked in that situation beautifully, without throwing me out of the episode so hard. (And dammit, now I have even more of an uphill road in convincing my sister that Sheppard and McKay are best friends, because I've been trying for MONTHS and she keeps telling me I'm rationalizing. As soon as I started talking about that scene yesterday, she interrupts with, "I KNEW you were going to try to rationalize that!")

I wouldn't be having to rationalize if it was consistent with canon, though!

LOL! So we've unintentionally conjured up the term OTBF? Like OTP but with best friends?

*laughs* I think of it as "friendship OTPs". And I've had 'em for YEARS.

I totally agree with you about the exclusionary-ness of the OTP mentality and, actually, that's one thing that's really gotten me on board with friendship OTPs. Because they're not, by nature, exclusionary. You can be friends with more than one person, even close friends.

And maybe that's one reason why I'm trying so hard to rationalize this so hard, because the way that it's presented in canon *is* kind of exclusionary and *does* kind of belittle my friendship OTP for that show. (And DOESN'T FIT CANON, dammit!)

[anniehow.livejournal.com]

You (and the comments!) make a lot of interesting points (BTW, you keep referring to your other post on the subject, but where is it?) but I have to say that the "closest thing to a best friend" line didn't bother me. I had a best friend when I was little, but as I've grown up I've stopped considering her *the* best friend, and more a part of my circle of closest friends. Pretty much as you all said.

What bothered me instead (and I made a more articulate point on my LJ) was Rodney's motivations to avoid the fishing trip. Rodney doesn't like fishing? I bet! It's one of the most un-Rodney-like activities out there! He wants to spend time with Katie Brown? Yeah, well, friends usually do have to take second place to romantic needs, so perfectly understandable. But he doesn't want to hear Carson talk??? That bugged me. That bugged me good.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

(BTW, you keep referring to your other post on the subject, but where is it?

Oh, sorry 'bout that. My episode reactions since the start of the second half of the season have been friend-locked. I just added you as a friend, so now you should be able to read them.

But he doesn't want to hear Carson talk??? That bugged me. That bugged me good.

See, it really didn't bother me because one of the appealing (to us) and irritating (to his friends) things about Rodney is how brutally HONEST he is. Rodney simply doesn't seem to have that filter between brain and mouth that most people do. The one known commonly as "tact". *grin* This was evident in his "They're just ferns" comment to Katie as well. He just doesn't pull back from saying what he means. And I'm sure we've all got things that drive us insane about even our closest friends. The difference with Rodney is that he articulates these things, even in cases where nearly everyone else would keep their mouth shut so as not to hurt someone's feelings. (And even though it was an underhanded thing to do, he DID come up with an excuse rather than telling Carson to his face. I'm not sure if it would have been better or worse in the long run if he had, but he'd probably have had even more to feel guilty about then...)

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

I haven't quite come to terms with this episode yet, but I do fully udnerstand your squick about the best friends thing, because I clearly feel it too. And I'm sort of annoyed by it, even though I know why they did it -- to give an added kicker to what happened.

But, as much as I agree with your points on real life friendships (I have three best friends and I'd do anything for all of them)...I hate to say it, but it might be a *bit* of a rationalization. No, now, don't hit me! I just think we have to accept that Rodney perceived Carson as his best friend (even though, quite honestly, I don't think we did see that on the show very much), which suggests he doesn't feel as close to Sheppard as he does...did...to Carson. And that's a shame.

This ep killed me. That's all I say.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

*snort* Oh, no, you're absolutely right, I'm TOTALLY rationalizing!

But you know, I wouldn't have to if what the episode was telling us was a perfect fit with canon. To me, it's just NOT. The past couple of seasons have amply demonstrated that, while Rodney and Carson are certainly close, he's probably closer to Sheppard. Now we have no clue what goes on outside the parts of the episodes we see, but all we have to go by is what we've seen -- and that's shown us that Rodney hangs around Sheppard even when he doesn't have to, that he confides in him, goes to him with problems, wants to share "cool" stuff with him, spends leisure time with him ... all of the things that best friends do. We haven't seen him doing ANY of this with Beckett since the first season.

And that's a shame.

More than just a shame ... it tends to indicate that even after everything, Rodney's still pretty darn dense about his close relationships with others. ;p

I would be happy to take this comment at face value as an actual statement on how TPTB intend the character relationships to be seen -- IF it fit canon. But it DOESN'T! All we're left with are rationalizations, because dammit, what they're telling us and what they're showing us are two different things!

I can accept that Rodney perceives Carson as his best friend, due to their past history or Rodney's personal definition of what "best friend" means -- or what have you. But I simply can't accept that this means he feels closer to Carson than to Sheppard, because that is just not what the past three seasons have shown us!

[sp23.livejournal.com]

The only real problem I had with Rodney's comment is one that I touched on in my previous comment in your journal - we're being told that Rodney and Carson had this close friendship, and yet we were never really shown that. Yes, of course, we know they were friends, but we never saw them just hanging out together.

I brought up the point to a co-worker that SG-1 did a much better job of establishing the fact of friendship outside of the job. We got so many scenes of the team hanging out together, drinking beer or going to watch 'combat in a vat of jello'. *g* We saw Janet and Sam fixing dinner together so that we knew, we had been shown, that these two women were, in fact, close personal friends and not just work-friends. SGA hasn't done a good job of this, especially with McKay. Hell, it wasn't until The Game that we actually got actual visual proof that Sheppard and McKay do hang out and play together beyond eating together occasionally.

I hope that the SGA writers do a better job of bringing the closeness of the team more to the fore. I'm especially happy with the way they're taking baby steps into establishing a Ronon/Rodney friendship because those two together would be such fun. :)

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Heh, and I just read though the other comments and concede the point that Rodney & John's hanging out together is better established than I originally stated. :)

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

ITA; I've been thinking much the same thing.

My concept of 'best friend' tends to be a bit behind the reality of my life, also - it sometimes takes me two or three years to realize that someone is the person I'm currently saving neat things to talk to with, whereas I might refer to someone as my 'best friend' who I really haven't made much of an effort to connect to in months.

- Helen

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I quite agree!

I've never actually had a formal "best friend" per se, but I've definitely seen this with other friends of mine -- where they'll refer to a "best friend" who, as far as I can tell by watching them interact with other people, really *isn't* their best friend at all. At least not as I'd define it.

Human relationships are just so damned complicated. I have two close friends who are basically inseparable. We've known each other for a number of years, and they do everything together. And yet, they've both told me individually (being as I'm close with both of them) that they don't actually LIKE each other all that much. There's no doubt in my mind that they care a lot about each other, but they have these really spectacular falling-outs occasionally (like one case where they were both sleeping with the same girl at the same time -- it was really bad, and I honestly didn't see how they could get past that, but a couple of months later, they were right back to being their inseparable selves). Are they best friends? Er ... by default they'd almost HAVE to be, despite the fact that they seem to spend a lot of time genuinely hating each other's guts, and not in a Sheppard & McKay way, but a "I can't stand this person" kind of way.

[drufan.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen it yet, but oh my this sounds interesting. But I think that the relationship has been established as a friend, a very good friend. In the withdrawal scene he sits with Rodney and they talk about things better left unsaid. It seemed it was after his shift should have ended and took whatever Rodney dished out.

They stand shoulder to shoulder watching Sheppard and Teyla at the party in Rising. Rodney is the first for the gene therapy...now while that might have been a he needs it more type of thing but their banter is still of friends.

They have known each other since before the expedition left. Carson was the only one that could get the chair to do anything so they worked closely together.

Why else would Rodney insult his doctoring skills?

Rodney's got a loner streak. He's not afraid of saying no I don't want to. To me, the relationship is established. Now i can't wait to see this so my opinion can either be changed or added to.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

See, here's the thing ... there is no doubt in my mind that Rodney and Carson are very good, very close friends, for the reasons you describe and lots more. I would even go so far as to say that Carson is one of Rodney's two closest friends, along with John. It's the idea that Carson is his ONE AND ONLY best friend that I just don't see supported by canon, and this is outright stated in the episode. That's what I had trouble with.

[margec01.livejournal.com]

I came to the "best friend" realization several years ago, when the term was mentioned somewhere and understood that I don't actually have a "best" friend. I have a best friend that I go mall-walking with, a best friend I go to the casinos with, one of my sister's is my best friend to chatter away with even though she's 700 miles away. I have two best friends I hang out with on Friday nights, a best friend I discuss finances and investing with, a best friend at work, and a best friend to play tennis with. Okay, some of these best friends overlap and are the same person, but you get the gist.

When I discovered this, I decided it's probably a good thing to have more than one "best" friend, because it means you are a more rounded person, who has many interests and you can relate to people on more than one level. With our Stargate pals, it shows that they are more rounded individuals as well--with the possible exception of Ronon, who seems to hang out with only Sheppard and Teyla.

And, as you said, it shows that Rodney surprisingly seems to have more people he can call friend than one might expect from his abrasive personality. Rodney realizes this surprising fact a bit in his conversation with Katie--he's surprised that she seems to know him pretty well and still likes him. I enjoy stories where Rodney (or John, or any of them really) fully realizes the friendships and "family" in Atlantis are so very important to them. And the few times the SHOW actually has the characters acknowledge this are GOLD!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with everything you say here. I love that the show recognizes that a person needs a range of character relationships in their life.

In fact, I think that this is one of the biggest reasons why the "closest thing to a best friend" comment bugged me so much. Rodney, perhaps moreso than any of the other characters, has a LOT of close friends. John. Carson. Elizabeth. Zelenka. And his "closest thing to a best friend" statement doesn't seem, to me, to fit with the character relationships that he's been shown to have. We KNOW he's close to Carson; there's no doubt about that in my mind. But I don't think he's closer to Carson than he is anyone else; I just don't think canon has shown us this. I don't even think it makes sense for Rodney as a character to FEEL closer to Carson than to anyone else. It just kind of rubbed me the wrong way. It's not that I don't think he's close to Carson, because I know that he is. But the singling out of the Carson friendship and setting it above the others, which is what his statement implies, just doesn't feel right to me in light of what we've seen over the last couple of seasons.

topic

[smingus.livejournal.com]

I think that the writers/whatevers have cut some things out that show some of the friendship between Carson and Rodney. In the Tao epi for example they did not film the scene per DH. If you watch the interactions we see they give reassurances through touch (phantoms, Thalen epi). Carson sat by his bedside in the hive. Rodney may have not wanted to go fishing but he did want Katie. He used Carson as a way to get a date and knew that Carson would understand. I do think that we see more John and Rodney because people appear to have a bigger interest in them.
sam

Re: topic

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I don't deny that they're friends, close friends even. I just don't see canon justification for Rodney being closer to Carson than to John. At MOST I'd say they're about equal in his world ... and honestly, I see more canon justification for him being closer to John than Carson these days.

[wraithfodder.livejournal.com]

Good post. Yes, you can have more than one best friend. I wasn't surprsied when Rodney said that as just think back to "Rising."

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I think it's just the exclusivity of the way it was phrased on the program that bothered me. I wouldn't have the slightest problem with "Carson, you're ONE OF my best friends." That fits perfectly with what I see on the show. It's the idea that Carson is his one and only best friend that just doesn't really seem to work with what they've shown us.

[cupidsbow.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the ep yet, but I liked your take on Rodney's social circle. I've often wondered about how he'd categorise his friendships. He knew Carson before Atlantis, and the impression I got from canon is that he knew him fairly well. So he might be 'best friend' due to length of friendship as much as intensity. After all, Rodney comes across as often liking people who don't like him back, and also mostly knowing people through his work, being such a workaholic. Work friendships have a way of dissolving once you move on and no longer see people everyday, so the very fact that his friendship with Carson has survived for some time might make it very 'real' to him. His friendship with Sheppard hasn't really been tested outside the workplace yet, except for those few weeks they weren't on Atlantis, although the phone calls make it seem like it could last beyond the expedition. But they are such opposites, and John is so repressed, that I can see why Rodney might not feel all that secure about John's feelings for him.

Thanks again for an interesting post.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! Appreciate the additional insights. :)

[eretria.livejournal.com]

This post has been the hand that finally tipped the scale: Not friending you seems abyssmally stupid.

And: Yes. I have three people who are m best friends, the oldest, the closest, and the one I'm acting with as though we're an old married couple. Due to our schedules being different, and due to living in differnt towns, I barely see the oldest best friend. The closest best friend lives 800 km away, but we call each other almost every day. Nothing I do with the oldest best friend, and I often feel like neglecting her, but: When we do call and do meet, it's as though none of this matters. And that depicts the strength of a friendship. Not the label. The reality of it.

Thank you for an insightful, smart post.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

You're welcome!

I've kind of dropped out of meta-ing about this because I think I'm really, thoroughly meta'd out at the moment. But I would be entirely remiss not to stop back by and say thanks. :)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

I read this post (and most of the comments) this morning and I've been thinking about this in the back of my head all day.

The statement at the end of "Sunday" didn't weird me out at all (it's possible I was too busy crying) and I didn't even realize why it should until I saw other people's outraged reactions at which point I started wondering why it didn't bug me.

Sheppard and Rodney are obviously very close. I would argue that, had circumstances not brought them together on Atlantis and put them in crazy situations, they would never have really liked each other. Despite their similarities, they are ultimately two very different people with very different interests - while this helps make their friendship fascinating, it also adds a level of complication. In learning to work together they've developed a respect and affection for each other and discovered they had more in common than they would have thought, but they are different enough that I think, if they returned to Earth long-term, they would eventually grow apart.

I don't think Rodney is ever completely sure where he stands with John. John is the cool un-attainable type who never would have given Rodney a second glance in the past and I think Rodney is a little enamored with the fact that this "cool" person seems interesting in hanging out with him, but also a little unsure (given all his past experiences) whether tomorrow is the day John will decide Rodney isn't cool enough. It doesn't help that John is about the last person who is going to assure you of his friendship, at least with words. Which I think is John's defense mechanism - if you don't let them get close/admit that you let them get close it won't hurt as much when they leave you (because, seriously, John is the poster child for abandonment issues).

Carson's friendship is something Rodney can rely upon. They have compatible interests and Carson is open and accepting and willing to get along with Rodney despite his flaws. To my eyes there's something more relaxed about the Carson-Rodney teasing than the Sheppard-Rodney teasing. I do agree the show grew lax in showing this friendship, but it has also been really emphasizing the team bonding recently. I wish they'd filmed the Carson-Rodney scene they supposedly wrote in "Tao of McKay" because it would have helped cement that those two were close and make Rodney's "Sunday" comment easier to take canonically.

I think Rodney's problem is he took Carson's friendships for granted. Rodney assumed Carson would always be there for him so it was safe to go off and play with his cool new friend and know that if something went wrong, Carson would still like him. Rodney knows it's a distinct possibility that he'll lose Sheppard some day and I think he's semi-prepared for that. I don't think he ever seriously considered that Carson would die. So when it happened he looked back and realized he'd been taking Carson's friendship for granted and now he no longer had the friend he could be sure of, the one he always assumed would be there.

I think a lot of his comment comes down to guilt - he's guilt-ridden about what happened and about things in the past. That, combined with the uncertainty about where he stands with John and the overwhelming grief, makes Rodney's statement work for me. It's almost like, in Rodney's mind, Carson was the closest thing Rodney had to a best friend and his friendship with Sheppard needs it's own separate term to define it.

I think I might have had a point somewhere in there...sorry to get all rambly on you LJ.

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

wow, that sure gives one something to think about. Thanks for your 'essay'. It does make a whole lot of sense that Rodney doesn't realize what sort of friendship he has with Sheppard (and is vastly afraid of losing it).

[pavaneofstars.livejournal.com]

I've been waiting to read this until after I had seen this episode, which I loved btw. I love what you wrote about friends and friendship and what it means for us in real life as well as for our characters in Atlantis. :)

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the comments! I've kind of ducked out of the discussion on this, because I'm really meta'd out right now and kind of got to the point where I didn't want to think about it anymore. But there's been lots of interesting food for thought ...

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

Dang it, so many interesting replies. I wonder, anyone on your list planning to be at the upcoming con in Austraila that Joe is going to be at? Gads, that's one question I'm dying to ask him!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I really wish someone would ask him! It'd be awesome to get the actor's take on the whole thing.

[smalldiver.livejournal.com]

Hi, you don't know me, but I have the overwhelming urge to send you cyber-cookies now. I was getting bloody fed up of all the "Noes, JOHN is Rodney's BFF, Carson sux!!1!!1!" comments out there. I've always seen Rodney and Carson as being close friends, even from the very first episode, yet that doesn't by any means mean that Rodney and John are total strangers to each other.

On a tangent, I loved to see Ronon almost tearing up in this episode at the end. It reminded me that Carson was the first person that Ronon really trusted in the Atlantis team (letting him near him with sharp implements...). But again, Ronon clearly hangs out with John more ( even calling him 'John' in this episode, squee! )

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I've been loving the way that Ronon is getting more closely integrated with the Atlantis characters -- not just as a group, but as individuals too. We've seen more and more that he cares about them one-on-one, hangs out with them and so forth. I love it!