Probably more than you really wanted to know about my id

[sholio]

Hee. I've been playing with my hc_bingo card in Photoshop, color-coding the squares based on how much I want to write them.




There are more than one shade of orange ... basically the redder a square is, the harder I think it's going to be to write (and the red ones are either outright squicks or I can't really think of a way to write them that works for me as a writer). The wild card space is of course going to be easy.

Mostly I'm trying to figure out which of the various scoring options I should go for here. A line up the right side would be great, except that "starvation" in an h/c context is pretty close to a bulletproof squick of mine; I can read it (sort of, as long as it's not the only thing in the story) but I'm honestly not sure if I could write the prompt and enjoy it. Ditto for the "corporal punishment" and "dub-con" squares; I think those are the only three on the card that I'm not sure if I could write under any circumstances (oddly non-con would be much easier for me to write than dub-con).

I'm actually thinking that the best one to try for might be a vertical and a horizontal line that cross through the Wildcard space. This hits nearly all yellow squares, doesn't include any squicks, and uses the existing fill I already have.

... and there's also the question of which fandoms. Highlander is mainly where my inspiration is these days, but some of the prompts on my card would obviously work better in other fandoms ("alien abduction" ... perfect for SGA, crackariffic for HL). Several of these lend themselves really well to HL ("extortion" - someone finds out about a character's Immortal identity and blackmails them - perfect!) but others would be pretty hard to do properly with Immortal characters. *muses*

ETA: I wanted to clarify that just because I don't think I can write some of these tropes doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with them -- I know there are a few people on my flist who really enjoy or have a kink for some of the tropes I've marked off, and clearly I don't mean to imply there's something wrong with any of them, or with anyone who likes them, or that I'm judging you for liking them or anything like that; they just don't really work for me personally. Just wanted to make that clear. >_>

Comments

[brightknightie]

I was asking skieswideopen about this the other day when she posted her card; may I ask you, also?

I looked around HC-Bingo and noticed that they don't define "hurt/comfort."

I don't feel familiar with it as a trope/genre. Perhaps because it's a challenge, not a routine, to seriously physically injure vampires, immortals, mythical creatures and superheroes -- or perhaps because my favorite shows are so formula-driven, and so much from the "reset button" era of syndicated storytelling -- hurt/comfort seems moderately rare in them. (Granted, threatening/kidnapping/injuring/converting Natalie is a regular occurence in FK fanfic, and torturing, starving and drugging the vampire characters is not unheard of.)

So: How do you define "hurt/comfort"?

Separately, what do you think most fans of it consider its appeal, or signs of excellence in it?

(If you don't feel like answering, no problem. I'm just curious. I have too many commitments to consider playing the game.)

Thanks!

[sholio]

That is an interesting question! I'll have to mosey over and see how skieswideopen answered when I'm done typing this, too. :D

I also ought to mention that I'm probably an atypical hurt/comfort fan in that a great deal of what's labeled "hurt/comfort" in fandom is not really to my taste -- it's too indulgent for me, I guess. Generally I prefer h/c elements that are wrapped up in a bigger story. So it's hard for me to talk about what h/c fans in general might like, when I'm not really a good example of the type.

Having said that, though ...

Here's the article on hurt/comfort on Fanlore. I think they do a pretty good job of defining it and describing its history. Personally I tend to think of h/c as fulfilling a similar place in h/c fans' psyches (and I do count myself one of them, even if I'm a bit outside the mainstream) as romantic stories do for slash and het fans. Does that make sense? If you're a slash fan, for example, the romance (either falling in love, or doing stuff together as a couple) is the fulcrum around which the story pivots, the emotional heart of it, the excuse for the characters to be doing stuff together in the first place, and the thing that makes fans of the pairing go a bit wobbly in the knees. I'm pretty sure that h/c functions similarly for those of us who are wired that way; it's where we get the emotional "punch" that slash or het fans get from the couple looking into each others' eyes or kissing for the first time, and it's a fulcrum around which to hang a story -- the built-in emotional climax of the story, basically, vaguely analogous to sex or an admission of love as the built-in emotional climax of a romance story. And it's a convenient label for finding other stuff you might like, and like-minded fans.

Which is not to say that all h/c works that way, any more than all het romance is "boy meets girl, boy kisses girl, boy has sex with girl". And there's an awful lot of h/c that's pairing-focused as well, which I suppose is where my analogy breaks down. *g* But it's an analogy that works for me as a reader, because I do get similar feelings from the rare romance that really hits my "yes!" buttons as I do from h/c that happens to hit my likes. It makes me happy and a bit weak in the knees.

And the way it does it -- *muses* I think the aspect of it that gets to me, mostly, is that it's an excuse for the characters to worry about each other or freak out about each other or do something nice for each other. I think this is precisely where an awful lot of h/c is too much for me -- the level where I tend to like it is about on the level of most shows, more or less ... where you get an occasional coma episode, or whatnot, but mostly it's kind of understated and unexpected. Someone is about to sacrifice themselves heroically and their friend offers to take their place. Someone's having nightmares and their friend comes over and offers to play chess with them 'til the wee hours of the morning, even though they don't actually talk about the trauma that caused the nightmares in the first place. That kind of thing. The standard definition of h/c is basically "one character gets hurt, another character takes care of them" but, I dunno, for me it's really more of an excuse to get characters to do nice things for each other or worry about each other.

[scrollgirl]

I'm probably an atypical hurt/comfort fan in that a great deal of what's labeled "hurt/comfort" in fandom is not really to my taste -- it's too indulgent for me, I guess. Generally I prefer h/c elements that are wrapped up in a bigger story.

Re what I said in my below comment about not liking torture because of the helplessness... I think, for me, it's the "indulging in a character's helplessness" that bothers me most. I really love the SGA ep "Common Ground", and yeah, John and Todd and even Weir and everyone in Atlantis watching John get tortured are helpless to an extent. But there's movement in the episode, the torture exists to make a point, and then the plot keeps going. With a lot of h/c (or the badly written ones, maybe) it feels like the writer lingers on the helplessness and hopelessness, to an extent that pushes me out of the canon (Stargate is rarely that bleak). And while I can understand why some people might enjoy that kind of thing, it's not to my personal taste.

[sholio]

YES. THIS. Actually, it's the helplessness that I think is the biggest stumbling block that stands in the way of me enjoying a lot of h/c. In most cases I think it's because I love the characters for their strength and competence, and seeing them laid low, turned into victims needing to be rescued, completely destroys what appealed to me about them in the first place! I've often seen people say that what they like about h/c is precisely the element of it that I don't like -- they enjoy seeing tough or stoic characters made weak and forced to lean on others. And, I don't know, that's just not part of it at all for me.

I think this is probably why the h/c or h/c-ish authors that I enjoy the most are those who do retain the characters' strength and independence, and make whatever happened to them part of the plot rather than the entire focus of the plot -- it's not about breaking them or writing 400 chapters of PAIN and ANGST and WOE.

[scrollgirl]

I love the characters for their strength and competence, and seeing them laid low, turned into victims needing to be rescued, completely destroys what appealed to me about them in the first place!

Yes, exactly! I don't mind it when characters are occasionally outnumbered or outclassed by the bad guys, because hey, nobody's perfect. I like it when stoic characters unbend enough to accept help from friends. But I'm not a fan of stripping characters of their inner strength and hope, writing them without agency--it's too much like torture porn to me. Any "comfort" provided after that point seems almost... invasive.

ITA with your second paragraph. That said, I'm not sure why I'm perfectly happy reading plot-lite kinky sex (though I get turned off when it's 400 chapters of kinky sex, with nary a plot to be seen) and yet require h/c to be more restrained and in-character and plot-driven.

popular tropes = defined story payoffs

[brightknightie]

Thank you for the link as well as all your reflections.

>"Personally I tend to think of h/c as fulfilling a similar place in h/c fans' psyches... as romantic stories do for slash and het fans. Does that make sense?"

Yes, indeed. In fact, I was recently bending a patient friend's ear with a theory (whine? ~g~) that the romance writers have it comparatively easy, because they always know what the baseline goal/payoff of every story should be (to get or keep their couple together) while gen requires a new story goal/payoff to be created fresh every time. What strikes me, therefore, is not only that h/c is like romance in giving characters an "excuse" to interact, but that -- whether inside a gen or romance superstructure -- h/c defines a specific, repeatable baseline goal/payoff that its fans enjoy, the same way that romance does.

I'm now wondering what other tropes (in addition to romance and h/c; but excluding kink for clarity's sake) are big enough to accomplish that, to serve up a pre-defined story payoff that readers are eager to see again and again, and call it a genre rather than imitation.

>"it's really more of an excuse to get characters to do nice things for each other or worry about each other"

So friendship fics, but with a specific sort of nudge into action. :-)

Again, thanks!

[sholio]

btw, do you mind if I ask this question in a fresh post to my journal? I'm sure you'd get some interesting responses, and I would be really interested in seeing how my flist answers it, as well.

please do post at will

[brightknightie]

>"do you mind if I ask this question in a fresh post to my journal?"

Not at all! I would be very interested to learn how different people interpret the trope, and what about it attracts or repulses.

[scrollgirl]

Ooh, that's very handy! And anything that encourages you to write more HL fic is, in my books, a terrific idea!

I saw someone mention "touch starved" for "starvation", but you could also take a scifi spin to it, like an Immortal who was starved for a Quickening. I could see Methos or maybe Darius fighting with himself after absorbing the Light Quickening, having chosen not to go head-hunting any more, and yet working through the "hunger pangs" and being comforted by someone. Hmm, or maybe that's closer to "craving". I don't know if that's another H/C square or not.

[sholio]

Mmmm, that's a good interpretation of the prompt as well! I like the idea of using Darius for that, in particular; there is so little fic with him.

I think I'm balking at writing that prompt in particular because one of the really early stories I read in HL fandom was a DEEPLY TRAUMATIZING starvation/torture story (involving Methos, who else?) and that's where my brain immediately goes whenever I try to think of ideas for that prompt. But I like your idea a lot.

[scrollgirl]

Ugh, this is why I'm so picky about h/c (that is, fic written to be h/c), because I can't stand torture. It's not that I'm squeamish about violence, but I hate the helplessness and the fetishizing.

Anyway. If you like the Darius idea, I hope you go for it! You're right, there just isn't much fic about him, versus Darius-the-cameo-guest-star.