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Oh, frig, I know what I want to say; I just can't figure out how to say it.
I've been reading a bunch of Metafandom links on the Mary Sue concept today, and trying to write a thoughtful and coherent post on how all of this is making me challenge my own core values as a writer (in a good way, I think) and it just ... will not come together. Maybe because I'm still struggling with my own reactions to it.
I particularly recommend reading Such stuff as dreams are made on, and Why the Culture of Mary Sue Shaming is Bully Culture, and on mary sue policing and why i cannot abide it. I am not saying that I agree with everything they're saying, but they've definitely given me a tremendous amount of food for thought, and made me look at the uglier side of my own drive to "write better! aim higher!" with newly critical eyes.
I feel like an idiot for not having realized the extent to which "writing well" is a moral value for me - I'm not saying that I judge people as less worthy for the quality of their writing, or anything like that, but reading these posts and trying to think of what I consider "poor" writing as being just as worthy and worthwhile and fulfilling as what I consider "good" writing - on an intellectual level, I absolutely think it is! But I still feel like a core value of mine is under siege and I'm struggling with that knee-jerk reaction - I know it's irrational and wrong, but I can't seem to make it stop. I've always pushed myself hard as a writer, and I want to keep doing that, but I want to manage to balance that with not being elitist and judgmental towards other people's writing, and I'm not sure how to do that. HELP.
It doesn't help that I don't think I'd had any idea that the creeping expansion of the Mary Sue term is as bad as it seems to be. I had no idea that people used Mary Sue for as wide a range of character types as they do - any OFC? Really? When I say "Mary Sue" I've always meant it in its narrow sense - or at least I thought I did, but then I get to thinking about all the various situations that I've used the "Mary Sue" term, and ... I'm not so sure anymore. But I definitely think of a certain type of character and situation when I hear it, so I'm struggling with both the battle to accept that as a valid character type even though my internal editor is saying NOOOO, and the fact that I think I've just been intellectually convinced that it's not really a useful term of critique but my internal editor wants to hang onto it.
It's interesting to consider Mary Sue a genre of itself, just as deserving of having fans and followers and communities grow up around it as, say, hurt/comfort or any of our other established fannish genres. Non-h/c people may roll their eyes at h/c or mock the more WTF? examples, but I don't think anyone questions its right to exist. I had honestly never thought of self-insertion that way, as a perfectly valid form of indulgence for some people that's just as deserving of its own dedicated communities and fans, but - why the heck not?
And this post iskind of completely awesome: Celebration of Mary Sue, or, Writing Advice I Could Have Used at Age 14. Because yes, this is SO much better than judging and looking down upon new writers - explaining community norms to them and giving them the tools to create their own spaces, so that they can play with the self-insert idea as long as they need to (forever, if need be) in safe non-judgmental places. Isn't that better than saying "Get your Mary Sues out of my fandom"? I'm not sure how to export that ideal to fandom as a whole, but I agree with the bloggers above that something ought to be done, because we don't want to be chasing away new writers before they have a chance to get their writing legs under them.
ETA: And here is another post making similar points. It's foolish and short-sighted to say "Don't write that!" when you can win friends and new writers in your fandom by saying, "Here is how you can take what you already have and make it better."
ETA2: Just in case anyone was thinking about it, please do not link this in Metafandom.
I particularly recommend reading Such stuff as dreams are made on, and Why the Culture of Mary Sue Shaming is Bully Culture, and on mary sue policing and why i cannot abide it. I am not saying that I agree with everything they're saying, but they've definitely given me a tremendous amount of food for thought, and made me look at the uglier side of my own drive to "write better! aim higher!" with newly critical eyes.
I feel like an idiot for not having realized the extent to which "writing well" is a moral value for me - I'm not saying that I judge people as less worthy for the quality of their writing, or anything like that, but reading these posts and trying to think of what I consider "poor" writing as being just as worthy and worthwhile and fulfilling as what I consider "good" writing - on an intellectual level, I absolutely think it is! But I still feel like a core value of mine is under siege and I'm struggling with that knee-jerk reaction - I know it's irrational and wrong, but I can't seem to make it stop. I've always pushed myself hard as a writer, and I want to keep doing that, but I want to manage to balance that with not being elitist and judgmental towards other people's writing, and I'm not sure how to do that. HELP.
It doesn't help that I don't think I'd had any idea that the creeping expansion of the Mary Sue term is as bad as it seems to be. I had no idea that people used Mary Sue for as wide a range of character types as they do - any OFC? Really? When I say "Mary Sue" I've always meant it in its narrow sense - or at least I thought I did, but then I get to thinking about all the various situations that I've used the "Mary Sue" term, and ... I'm not so sure anymore. But I definitely think of a certain type of character and situation when I hear it, so I'm struggling with both the battle to accept that as a valid character type even though my internal editor is saying NOOOO, and the fact that I think I've just been intellectually convinced that it's not really a useful term of critique but my internal editor wants to hang onto it.
It's interesting to consider Mary Sue a genre of itself, just as deserving of having fans and followers and communities grow up around it as, say, hurt/comfort or any of our other established fannish genres. Non-h/c people may roll their eyes at h/c or mock the more WTF? examples, but I don't think anyone questions its right to exist. I had honestly never thought of self-insertion that way, as a perfectly valid form of indulgence for some people that's just as deserving of its own dedicated communities and fans, but - why the heck not?
And this post is
ETA: And here is another post making similar points. It's foolish and short-sighted to say "Don't write that!" when you can win friends and new writers in your fandom by saying, "Here is how you can take what you already have and make it better."
ETA2: Just in case anyone was thinking about it, please do not link this in Metafandom.
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I go around saying "Gene (EUGENE) Roddenberry created Mary Sues all the time [or Gary Stus if we have to have anatomically correct name] -- i.e. James Kirk, Wesley EUGENE Crusher), and he gets adulation out the wahooney. And yes, fandom has extended the Mary Sue definition even to CANONICAL female characters being written by fans in fan fic (SOME parts of fandom, not all, but some).
And I make jokes that all writers create Mary Sues, i.e. self-inserts, but some of us have the craft to make it not look so obvious (or our readers LIKE our takes on the characters).
I also am a creative writing teacher, so I know that everybody starts out writing crappy fic or poetry. Everybody starts out writing cliches (ooohhh, I could give you such a list). Everybody starts out writing derivative stories, stuff they're cobbling together/copying from their favorite works (that is NOT plagiarism, btw). (Hell, go back to the early notebooks by people like Byron and you'll see that they learned by 'imitatio,' imitation--early writing instruction was imitating--the "original" theory crap came in with the Modernists--and even at that TS Eliot "alludes" to a metric fuckton of British poetry and literature in his 'original' poetry).
I don't know if I can help you other than to say that the idea that good writing is morally superior has been in the English grammar/literary studies for ever (and is I believe a totally bankrupt position--especially since the moral judgment often carries over onto the writer, not just the text--as you note, you do not do that, but many people do). It's an ideology that preserves the elitist view that only a "few" people can/should write, and that they require extensive education in order to be able to do so (I forget which modernist said that nobody could write poetry before learning five languages, one of them non_Western--AHA, Ezra Pound). (And that elitist ideology was all about only straight, cis, white, elite, MEN doing the writing that was "good.").
*wipes up after self* This is a major hobby horse of mine, something that involves me not only as a fan writer but a teacher (think about the pain and harm that such attitudes can cause when held by a teacher--I had friends leave graduate programs because they were told by one white asshole that they were BAD writers).
I think it's Diane Duane who says you have to write a million words to become a good writer......and I'd say she's right. But if you're told early on how bad and wrong your writing is, then why keep writing? (When I was in first grade, I got into trouble by reading at the fourth grade level--I was told I was doing it wrong. I stopped reading! Luckily my dad was a white male professor who had status and privilege, and even luckier, my best friend introduced me to OZ, so I had to start reading again, but it was a close thing, and I was a child of privilege).
I know there are fans and fan communities who like to read and mock bad fic. I never could get into it. I have to read a lot of bad fic and poetry, and give constructive criticism and help students improve their work. I understand the impulse, but, well, every writer has been there. We've all written crap (and having published a lot or even being a BNF doesn't mean we don't write crap again.).
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The problem is not being able to turn it off. The problem is switching back and forth between working my ass off to make myself better, and then reading a story that's where I was 20 years ago and being as polite and supportive as I'd have hoped other people would've been with me. Flipping that mental switch - from making myself hyper-aware of cliches and lazy writing in my own work in order to root them out, to making myself unaware of the same things in someone else's writing - is hard for me! I think one reason why so many published writers are egocentric jerkwads is because of that problem - you have to push yourself so hard that it's difficult to shut it off when you're dealing with other people.
So the basic thing is that I agree with you totally - putting a moral judgment on good writing is stupid, and backwards, and counter-productive. Doing anything other than encouraging a newly fledged writer is a total dick move. But knowing that is one thing; the hard thing is gearing so much of my life towards being the very best I can possibly be in this particular area (*disclaimer: am not anywhere near there yet), and not doing that around other people. Especially in a social climate that encourages it. I am aware that it's something I need to fix about myself, and I've certainly heard enough stories from people who were discouraged from writing by teachers and friends and relatives that I absolutely do NOT want to be that person! But again, I'm not there yet.
I think it was reading these essays that made me decide that getting there is also a priority for me, and one that's not any less important than honing my writing skills.
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I could probably list a bakers' dozen of works that are published/pro quality (as could you) but could also be described and have been as self indulgent, badly-written, id zones, with Mary Sues out the yinyang (starting with Anne Rice, going to Laurell Hamilton's latest works, and omfg I don't know what to call it because it's all male characters, but sheesh, Anne Bishop). The reason these are all women is that I read incredibly few men and haven't for some years. Sturgeon's law.
The fact that romance novels (by women for women) are always trashed as TRASH, and the equivalent published/professional stuff for men is NOT goes to the very fact that sexism and misogyny have more to do with it than "literary" quality.
I was trained by the Purest of New Critics in the 1970s who said (btw) that among other things, all sf was trash--and there were no women writers ever assigned in the courses I took (esp. by the Americanists), and no writers of color--and when I finally realized that NONE of my professors (mostly white men of course) had ever read what they disdained, this huge big light bulb went off in my head.
I've been dubious about claims about "good writing" (especially claims that take for granted we all agree on what 'good writing' IS) ever since. (There are also lots of criticisms of academic creative writing programs turning out litfic clones who all write in one style that's deemed 'good').
I do admire you struggling with these issues and thinking through them (I had it a lot easier because I'd been reading sf all my life, and so had this huge amount of work that I knew was, some of it, good, even though authority figures were saying it wasn't, and I could then carry that resistance on over into reading other works--AND have spent the years since then fuming at how the academic culture is going to make 'canons' of everything--women's literature (white), African American literature (mostly not sf/fantastic or any other popular genre works) in order to make it academic), so I know just how powerful the ideology is and how appealing it is.
It would be great if people in fandom encouraged new writers generally--but there are pitfalls there too (i.e. learning to write constructive criticism is hugely difficult--I spend weeks training my creative writing students in it), and as lots of fandom imbroglios show, constructive criticism is not always welcome in fan spaces especially public ones. I mean, my students pay to take my class--that's my job--and they can ignore what I say specifically as long as they revise and show they've thought about their work and how to improve it--but fandom is often more about celebrating (or mocking) than actually workshopping.
There's also the ongoing confusion of craft and art which is for a whole other discussion--and the fact that one one reader finds brilliant, mesmerizing, brilliant, superb, another finds boring, overblown, pretentious and sexist (coffcofflots of male authors)--the subjectivity of the whole idea of quality writing is overwhelming.
It's late and I'm zonked, so I'm not going to keep babbling, but thank you for posting and talking!
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But I also believe the same thing about music (popular =/= crap, "good" music is in the eye of the beholder, etc) and YET, no one ever got a record deal (or regular gigs at the local bar, or whatever) without working their ass off to learn how to play an instrument and sing.
I don't want to fall into the trap of prizing my goals over my quality of life getting there (let alone sacrificing my morals along the way), or to lose sight of the reason why I wanted to write in the first place, which is because it's fun for me. I definitely don't want to get so obsessed with it that I end up applying my own standards to everybody, which is the issue I'm having here. But I also don't want to wake up ten years from now, having gotten no farther towards my goals than I am now. And there is definitely still work to be done in order to get there!
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What you choose to do for your own work is one thing entirely.
The question of fandom's response to groups of writers/types of characters is another one: you are struggling now with just that issue, your behavior.
Then, as a meta issue, there is the larger issue of what how fandom behaves, how we thrash out various standards in various communities (knowing it will always differ).
On the most pragmatic level, I don't know that hypothetical you who wants to become the best writer you can be (which will probably take all your life--it's not as if it's a single end goal) should be taking time to extensively comment on fic that you don't consider meet your standards (either in the "omg you're so bad I'm going to mock you" or in the "let me take oodles of my time and devote it to giving you feedback to improve your work"). (Setting up a writer's group and giving each other feedback can help immensely, but that's best done in private, not in public for many many reasons.) How does that process actually help you improve as a writer?
I do it in my courses because that's my job.
I don't do it in fandom.
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Um ... what behavior of mine are you basing this on? I don't go around commenting extensively on other people's writing from some kind of half-assed idea that I'm improving them, unless I'm invited to do so as a beta. (Granted, I've left comments I later regretted - I suspect we all have.) I'm not sure what in my post or my above comments gave you the idea that I do this.
Please don't give me advice regarding my behavior unless you have actual evidence that I've engaged in the behavior you're talking about. Or point to where I've done this, so that I can know what the hell you're talking about and why you're lecturing me about it.
What I'm talking about, in the above post and in my comments to you, is my own internal response to other people's writing. I've always tried to be a good fandom citizen and not go around getting up in other people's business (and I'm sorry if I keep harping on this, but I'm really very upset by your comment, and stunned that you think I do) but I'm sure that my subconscious attitudes on what constitutes "poor" writing do express themselves in how I comment and rec stuff and discuss writing in my journal. That's why I'm trying to work this stuff out for myself, because I dislike the idea that it would come out unconsciously in my behavior towards other people.
But I'm actually really fucking upset by what you're accusing me of, and if you've seen me doing this, I want links, places, dates. Because I probably owe some people apologies, and I'd like to know who I should be apologizing to.
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If you're talking internal response, which I did not pick up at ALL, then that's different as well. (Seeing something done "badly" and resolving not to do it in your own work is a common writerly habit, and something everybody does.)
I'm reading this post in the context of the current fandom debate in which there are criticisms of mocking of Mary Sue stories, and ongoing PUBLIC postings condemning Mary Sues. I read YOUR individual post about your struggle between your desire to be a good writer, and your participation in fandom which often involves commenting on fics (and other creative works). I read your comments about NOT wanting to hurt/harm others as being part of this struggle--your internal commentary cannot hurt anybody although as you note, it may come out in various ways.
I am sorry I did not make myself clearer.
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I'm pretty much just trying to clean up the contents of my own head. Like you said, I don't want to harm others by accident; I have occasionally left comments I'm less than proud of, though not specifically pertaining to Mary Sues, and I would absolutely hate to be the reason why someone left fandom or stopped writing. Like I was rambling about elsewhere in the comments, I had actually never known before reading the above links about the whole culture of shaming/sporking/etc that surrounds the Mary Sue trope - I guess I was tangentially aware of some of it, but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was or how extensive the definition of Mary Sue had become - the idea that people are afraid to write female characters because they're afraid that they would be viewed and mocked as Mary Sues is shocking and appalling to me; I had no idea! I really have no idea to what extent I may have contributed to that climate in the past - I can't think of anything specific I've done, but heaven knows, because I wasn't on the lookout for it. But in the future I will be.
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Like I said above, I'm still struggling with how to approach this as a writer. In order to write well, I need to be able to recognize poor/clumsy/cliche writing and avoid it myself. How do I do this without letting my dissatisfaction with other people's clumsy and cliche writing show through in my writing, comments and meta?
To put it in artist terms (because I'm also an artist, so I deal with it there too :D), it's like browsing through fanart galleries and seeing tons of dreadful anatomy, obvious swipes, and other signs of newbie artists - on the one hand, I'm delighted and overjoyed that they're learning to draw, and I love to drop in and give an obvious artist-in-training a pat on the back now and then - it makes them feel good and it makes me feel good. On the other hand, I can't stare at galleries full of clumsy and amateurish art all day long without feeling my own art skills start to degrade.
So, the thing is, I *absolutely* agree that fandom needs to give new writers, and writers who enjoy and appreciate self-insert characters, the encouragement and space to do their thing. What I am struggling with is how to make my own space in fandom friendly to them while still maintaining it as a space that's comfortable and friendly for me. Or, more accurately, maintaining my own headspace as a comfortable and friendly place for me.
ETA: Also, I'm sorry for going off on you in the above comment; you didn't deserve that. This is what happens when I try to answer comments before my morning cup of tea (mmm, caffeine). I am still struggling with feeling ... um, attacked by your comment, but I know you really didn't mean to, and it is probably because I was unclear at explaining what I'm trying to express about myself in the earlier comments.
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(Anonymous) 2010-04-12 06:48 pm (UTC)(link)I think this does become an interesting practical example of the dangers of giving feedback/commentary (on anything)! The potentials for misunderstanding are rife on both sides.
We clearly have incredibly different approaches to fan productions (I have very little time to spend reading fic; I'm not going to read something that isn't excellent by my definition of it--i.e. fits into my kinks, one of which has to do with certain grammatical and syntactical issues!).
We all choose what we wish to spend our time/energy on, and I'm just happy to see more people who are not joining in with the mocking and harassment around the "Mary Sue" issue (which I think is vastly more complicated), and, as you do here, thinking about how your own concerns might affect people.
That was me, above!
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But think there's something more going with Mary Sues than just newbie writerness (or the accusation of Sue-ness).
I think that we in fandom get to explore Issues (in terms of narrative and real life and source text and what have you) in a way that the pro fic community often doesn't. Because while I might tell my students that the papers they write on "A Good Man is Hard to Find" participate in the discourse surrounding that text, the truth is that Flannery O'Connor is deader than a doornail and no journal is interested in anything they've got to say about the work, no matter how perceptive. In fandom, we get to have conversations with writers--through feedback and recs/reviews posts and meta, and we also engage in conversation with the stories we write--fandom is one big ole intertextual mess. And so, Mary Sues are another way of negotiating the complexities that fanfic has to offer us--would I do this or that or who would I be if I'm not me and what would it be like to attract the attention of the hero/ine?
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Part of it involves discussion with the writers, but it is larger/more complex than it. I think (and am writing this paper, well, thinking about writing it coffcoff) that is about how on one level ALL fanfic is a self-insertion--we're writing ourselves into the storyverse, even if it's not in literal characters. When I write LOTR FPS, I get to be in Middle-earth.
Then there are all sorts of issues around women characters in fan fic which connects directly to all the issues raised around feminist critiques of literature (and white characters in fan fic which connects to all the issues raised in critical race commentary), and ability issues.
There are going to be major differences in fandom (I have heard that there's an amazing femslash community in the Devil Wears Prada fandom)--and in types of fic (I know the slash writers are often dismissed as most misogynistic, but gen that focuses entirely on the male characters also excludes women).
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*nods*
I agree with you.