Oh, frig, I know what I want to say; I just can't figure out how to say it.

[sholio]

I've been reading a bunch of Metafandom links on the Mary Sue concept today, and trying to write a thoughtful and coherent post on how all of this is making me challenge my own core values as a writer (in a good way, I think) and it just ... will not come together. Maybe because I'm still struggling with my own reactions to it.

I particularly recommend reading Such stuff as dreams are made on, and Why the Culture of Mary Sue Shaming is Bully Culture, and on mary sue policing and why i cannot abide it. I am not saying that I agree with everything they're saying, but they've definitely given me a tremendous amount of food for thought, and made me look at the uglier side of my own drive to "write better! aim higher!" with newly critical eyes.

I feel like an idiot for not having realized the extent to which "writing well" is a moral value for me - I'm not saying that I judge people as less worthy for the quality of their writing, or anything like that, but reading these posts and trying to think of what I consider "poor" writing as being just as worthy and worthwhile and fulfilling as what I consider "good" writing - on an intellectual level, I absolutely think it is! But I still feel like a core value of mine is under siege and I'm struggling with that knee-jerk reaction - I know it's irrational and wrong, but I can't seem to make it stop. I've always pushed myself hard as a writer, and I want to keep doing that, but I want to manage to balance that with not being elitist and judgmental towards other people's writing, and I'm not sure how to do that. HELP.

It doesn't help that I don't think I'd had any idea that the creeping expansion of the Mary Sue term is as bad as it seems to be. I had no idea that people used Mary Sue for as wide a range of character types as they do - any OFC? Really? When I say "Mary Sue" I've always meant it in its narrow sense - or at least I thought I did, but then I get to thinking about all the various situations that I've used the "Mary Sue" term, and ... I'm not so sure anymore. But I definitely think of a certain type of character and situation when I hear it, so I'm struggling with both the battle to accept that as a valid character type even though my internal editor is saying NOOOO, and the fact that I think I've just been intellectually convinced that it's not really a useful term of critique but my internal editor wants to hang onto it.

It's interesting to consider Mary Sue a genre of itself, just as deserving of having fans and followers and communities grow up around it as, say, hurt/comfort or any of our other established fannish genres. Non-h/c people may roll their eyes at h/c or mock the more WTF? examples, but I don't think anyone questions its right to exist. I had honestly never thought of self-insertion that way, as a perfectly valid form of indulgence for some people that's just as deserving of its own dedicated communities and fans, but - why the heck not?

And this post is kind of completely awesome: Celebration of Mary Sue, or, Writing Advice I Could Have Used at Age 14. Because yes, this is SO much better than judging and looking down upon new writers - explaining community norms to them and giving them the tools to create their own spaces, so that they can play with the self-insert idea as long as they need to (forever, if need be) in safe non-judgmental places. Isn't that better than saying "Get your Mary Sues out of my fandom"? I'm not sure how to export that ideal to fandom as a whole, but I agree with the bloggers above that something ought to be done, because we don't want to be chasing away new writers before they have a chance to get their writing legs under them.

ETA: And here is another post making similar points. It's foolish and short-sighted to say "Don't write that!" when you can win friends and new writers in your fandom by saying, "Here is how you can take what you already have and make it better."

ETA2: Just in case anyone was thinking about it, please do not link this in Metafandom.

Comments

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, with all of this! But it doesn't change the fact that where I want to be, in terms of both writing skill and published-ness, is not where I am now. And there is no way for me to get there except through self-discipline and hard work: practicing my ass off, learning to write even when I don't want to, studying other writers' work analytically and figuring out what makes it awesome to me and how to apply that to my own writing. I know that publication is every bit as much of a crapshoot as BNF-dom in fandom, and I'm very adamantly opposed to the idea that lowbrow/popular/genre fiction automatically equals crap, because hello, that's (mostly) what I read and what I write. Anything that a reader connects to is "good" (to them) and I think that's completely awesome, yay.

But I also believe the same thing about music (popular =/= crap, "good" music is in the eye of the beholder, etc) and YET, no one ever got a record deal (or regular gigs at the local bar, or whatever) without working their ass off to learn how to play an instrument and sing.

I don't want to fall into the trap of prizing my goals over my quality of life getting there (let alone sacrificing my morals along the way), or to lose sight of the reason why I wanted to write in the first place, which is because it's fun for me. I definitely don't want to get so obsessed with it that I end up applying my own standards to everybody, which is the issue I'm having here. But I also don't want to wake up ten years from now, having gotten no farther towards my goals than I am now. And there is definitely still work to be done in order to get there!

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

I guess......I see these things as separate.

What you choose to do for your own work is one thing entirely.

The question of fandom's response to groups of writers/types of characters is another one: you are struggling now with just that issue, your behavior.

Then, as a meta issue, there is the larger issue of what how fandom behaves, how we thrash out various standards in various communities (knowing it will always differ).

On the most pragmatic level, I don't know that hypothetical you who wants to become the best writer you can be (which will probably take all your life--it's not as if it's a single end goal) should be taking time to extensively comment on fic that you don't consider meet your standards (either in the "omg you're so bad I'm going to mock you" or in the "let me take oodles of my time and devote it to giving you feedback to improve your work"). (Setting up a writer's group and giving each other feedback can help immensely, but that's best done in private, not in public for many many reasons.) How does that process actually help you improve as a writer?

I do it in my courses because that's my job.

I don't do it in fandom.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

On the most pragmatic level, I don't know that hypothetical you who wants to become the best writer you can be (which will probably take all your life--it's not as if it's a single end goal) should be taking time to extensively comment on fic that you don't consider meet your standards (either in the "omg you're so bad I'm going to mock you" or in the "let me take oodles of my time and devote it to giving you feedback to improve your work"). (Setting up a writer's group and giving each other feedback can help immensely, but that's best done in private, not in public for many many reasons.) How does that process actually help you improve as a writer?

Um ... what behavior of mine are you basing this on? I don't go around commenting extensively on other people's writing from some kind of half-assed idea that I'm improving them, unless I'm invited to do so as a beta. (Granted, I've left comments I later regretted - I suspect we all have.) I'm not sure what in my post or my above comments gave you the idea that I do this.

Please don't give me advice regarding my behavior unless you have actual evidence that I've engaged in the behavior you're talking about. Or point to where I've done this, so that I can know what the hell you're talking about and why you're lecturing me about it.

What I'm talking about, in the above post and in my comments to you, is my own internal response to other people's writing. I've always tried to be a good fandom citizen and not go around getting up in other people's business (and I'm sorry if I keep harping on this, but I'm really very upset by your comment, and stunned that you think I do) but I'm sure that my subconscious attitudes on what constitutes "poor" writing do express themselves in how I comment and rec stuff and discuss writing in my journal. That's why I'm trying to work this stuff out for myself, because I dislike the idea that it would come out unconsciously in my behavior towards other people.

But I'm actually really fucking upset by what you're accusing me of, and if you've seen me doing this, I want links, places, dates. Because I probably owe some people apologies, and I'd like to know who I should be apologizing to.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry for my clumsy phrasing: the example I gave above is hypothetical (I have no idea how you comment on people's work). Hypothetical, theoretical, imagined, not actual/you at all.

If you're talking internal response, which I did not pick up at ALL, then that's different as well. (Seeing something done "badly" and resolving not to do it in your own work is a common writerly habit, and something everybody does.)

I'm reading this post in the context of the current fandom debate in which there are criticisms of mocking of Mary Sue stories, and ongoing PUBLIC postings condemning Mary Sues. I read YOUR individual post about your struggle between your desire to be a good writer, and your participation in fandom which often involves commenting on fics (and other creative works). I read your comments about NOT wanting to hurt/harm others as being part of this struggle--your internal commentary cannot hurt anybody although as you note, it may come out in various ways.

I am sorry I did not make myself clearer.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the apology; I'm also sorry that I was unclear (and I certainly was). No, I've been talking about my internal responses, mostly. Actually your comment - my initial reading of your comment - confirmed some of my worst fears - that I'd engaged in bad fannish behavior without having realized I was doing it.

I'm pretty much just trying to clean up the contents of my own head. Like you said, I don't want to harm others by accident; I have occasionally left comments I'm less than proud of, though not specifically pertaining to Mary Sues, and I would absolutely hate to be the reason why someone left fandom or stopped writing. Like I was rambling about elsewhere in the comments, I had actually never known before reading the above links about the whole culture of shaming/sporking/etc that surrounds the Mary Sue trope - I guess I was tangentially aware of some of it, but I hadn't realized how pervasive it was or how extensive the definition of Mary Sue had become - the idea that people are afraid to write female characters because they're afraid that they would be viewed and mocked as Mary Sues is shocking and appalling to me; I had no idea! I really have no idea to what extent I may have contributed to that climate in the past - I can't think of anything specific I've done, but heaven knows, because I wasn't on the lookout for it. But in the future I will be.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Returning now that I'm less angry ... perhaps I am being confusing in trying to explain what it is about this issue that I'm trying to work out above. I'll copy from my comment to astridv below, because I think I said it better there:

Like I said above, I'm still struggling with how to approach this as a writer. In order to write well, I need to be able to recognize poor/clumsy/cliche writing and avoid it myself. How do I do this without letting my dissatisfaction with other people's clumsy and cliche writing show through in my writing, comments and meta?

To put it in artist terms (because I'm also an artist, so I deal with it there too :D), it's like browsing through fanart galleries and seeing tons of dreadful anatomy, obvious swipes, and other signs of newbie artists - on the one hand, I'm delighted and overjoyed that they're learning to draw, and I love to drop in and give an obvious artist-in-training a pat on the back now and then - it makes them feel good and it makes me feel good. On the other hand, I can't stare at galleries full of clumsy and amateurish art all day long without feeling my own art skills start to degrade.

So, the thing is, I *absolutely* agree that fandom needs to give new writers, and writers who enjoy and appreciate self-insert characters, the encouragement and space to do their thing. What I am struggling with is how to make my own space in fandom friendly to them while still maintaining it as a space that's comfortable and friendly for me. Or, more accurately, maintaining my own headspace as a comfortable and friendly place for me.

ETA: Also, I'm sorry for going off on you in the above comment; you didn't deserve that. This is what happens when I try to answer comments before my morning cup of tea (mmm, caffeine). I am still struggling with feeling ... um, attacked by your comment, but I know you really didn't mean to, and it is probably because I was unclear at explaining what I'm trying to express about myself in the earlier comments.

[(Anonymous)]

No problem--I was unclear in my hypotheticalness.

I think this does become an interesting practical example of the dangers of giving feedback/commentary (on anything)! The potentials for misunderstanding are rife on both sides.

We clearly have incredibly different approaches to fan productions (I have very little time to spend reading fic; I'm not going to read something that isn't excellent by my definition of it--i.e. fits into my kinks, one of which has to do with certain grammatical and syntactical issues!).

We all choose what we wish to spend our time/energy on, and I'm just happy to see more people who are not joining in with the mocking and harassment around the "Mary Sue" issue (which I think is vastly more complicated), and, as you do here, thinking about how your own concerns might affect people.

That was me, above!

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

Forgot to log in the first time mutter mumble...