sholio | SPN 5x17

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tv:spn

SPN 5x17

So I've pretty much gotten to the point on SPN where I watch it like it's badfic with a lot of entertaining crack, and laugh at it a lot. Like last week's episode, with angels flying around like B-52s and Ash hacking heaven and so forth. Awesome crack, majorly WTF if you stop and think about it for a few seconds, or still care about the characters, or such things.

But Thursday's episode would've been one of those chapters on the Interminable Badfic That You Can't Stop Reading where you backbutton like crazy and then run off to complain under f'lock, with a lot of "Oh no, she didn't!" and "Dude, srsly, has she even watched the show?" and "D'you think someone should comment and tell her this is really horribly offensive, or does she just delete those comments?" and "Why am I still reading this pile of suck, OMG" and so forth.

"On a good day you get to kill a whore"?!! I just ... don't even. Do they even THINK about what they're WRITING anymore? I swear, SPN is the show that makes me feel SO MUCH BETTER about SGA.

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I suspect they don't think about much at all in the writing room! I could have told them that line was not only offensive but very clunky too!

It's just ... the whole episode! I don't even know where to start! (Although I laughed my ass off at the "Lutheran Militia". And it was awesome to see other people taking up arms in the fight against the demons - too bad they turned out to be EVIL.)

Actually, that last bit ... I think sums up one of my biggest issues with the show whenever I make the mistake of stopping to think about it from a serious perspective. The writers just don't want to expand the world beyond Sam and Dean. Every person in this town should plausibly go ahead and keep fighting the apocalypse, since they all know about demons and they've had a blatant demonstration of just how much danger they're in, but do you think we'll see that? Sam and Dean should be leaving a trail of people behind (at least one per episode) who know about the demon menace and can help out - we even got to see those other Hunters last week - but none of it matters in the grand scheme of things. This whole season could've been about mobilizing an army of Hunters and demon-attack victims; it could have shaken the show's world-building to its core with Sam and Dean trying to warn people, trying to unite the Hunters, blowing the lid off the secrecy that's the show's central conceit. Instead they're running around like they're the only people in the world, like this whole thing isn't everyone's problem. And from a writing perspective, they ARE the only people in the world, at least the only ones who count. AARGH. I think that's why I have to watch the show as cracky badfic, because every time I start thinking about its underpinnings, I start thinking about how awesome it could be, and my head explodes.

To be fair, this is something a LOT of shows fail on (it always bugged me in BtVS), both, I think, because taking away the secrecy would change the tone of the show more than the creators usually want, and because trying to mobilize the troops just isn't that interesting. (You could even say that BtVS did expand to 'mobilizing the troops' in season 7 and a lot of people hated it, although I think that was mostly due to bad handling.)

On the other hand, as if SPN deserves anyone being fair to it at this point. (And anyway, it still sucks; it's just wide-spread suckage.)

Yeah, I do get that. The Stargates definitely suffered from the same problem, where the secrecy was a central part of the show's premise, even though any rational person would've alerted the whole world to the existence of aliens bent on wiping out human life. (At least the Stargates have the excuse that the government's in control of the information...)

I think it's gotten to the point with me on SPN where the usefulness of telling everyone, or at least of telling SOME people, is too obvious to ignore anymore; and there's not enough squee to make up for it. I can ignore anything if the show is entertaining enough to make up for it ...

I know it's bad when I had more fun watching SGU and Legend of the Seeker than SPN.

I think what's worse is that SPN used to be pretty good in season 1 and 2 and now it's mediocre at best...

Legend of the Seeker and SGU started bad and rose to mediocrity.

For SPN I think they would have been better off fleshing out the character of the week like they did in seasons 1 and 2 so we actually care about what happens to them. Now it's like cardboard cut outs, or bad fan fic...

I think after losing Manners and Rachelle Tucker (writer from season 1 and 2...) the show lost two people that helped make it good and the remaining people don't know what worked so well and they are muddling through.

Yeah, I really enjoyed SGU this week! I think I'd enjoy it more if I liked more of the characters, but it was actually one of their best episodes yet.

For SPN I think they would have been better off fleshing out the character of the week like they did in seasons 1 and 2 so we actually care about what happens to them. Now it's like cardboard cut outs, or bad fan fic...

I know. See my comment thread with

xparrot below ... I think they've really made a mistake by isolating Sam and Dean so thoroughly, and by treating the other characters as props rather than individuals. Like you said, they used to do much better with the one-shot characters; these days they're not much more than a means to move the plot around.

I also used to love the show's blue-collar-ness the first couple of seasons, where we spent a lot of time in small towns around working-class, unglamorous people. This episode actually had a little of that feeling back again in the beginning ... things kinda went south later on, though.

I didn't know that about the writers. Maybe that explains a lot.

I was actually surprised that last weeks episode and this week's episode were actually kind of good! But the characters...I really dislike the Colonel and he totally brought on what happened and then the way the military is treating the civilians???

What I did like was the beginning of the episode where they showed Choloe and that one solider in bed together, this is something I kind of wish they did more realistically in SGA and SG-1 but they never went there...

As for SPN...Manners was director and I think Tucker was a writer, she left to work on Chuck (I could tell when she left Chuck as well!) I should just follow where she works. I'm not sure why or how but she's pretty good. I know it's a team of writers but I do think some people have more influence than others.

Ah well I'm going to have to let this go and hope they don't cancel Legend of the Seeker...

RE: SGU - Holy shit they brought back Dr. Brightman! I *love* her!

That episode was pretty damn fun :D

Interesting, I didn't know she'd been in it before! We were actually joking about her being new to the SGC because she seemed so surprised at using snake venom for anesthesia. *g*

I've been reduced to reading spoilers before watching (something I usually avoid like the plague) to prepare myself for the episodes. I still couldn't bring myself ot watch this week's. Is it relevant to the arc? Few really commented on the plot, and so many of the recent episodes don't even do anything. I still want to know how the apocalypse turns out ridiculous as it is (also I hate half-watching something), even though SPN is turning the characters I liked into unlikable shadows of their former selves. :/

... sort of? The arc-relevant stuff is really just about five minutes at the end, and even that might turn out not to matter at all in the grand scheme of things, depending on where next episode picks up.

even though SPN is turning the characters I liked into unlikable shadows of their former selves. :/

Yeah, I hear you.

Really the only part that was relevant to the overall plot is that the whore of babylon appeared and then was killed, Castiel is pretty messed up after last week and is getting drunk and beligerent, and Dean has decided to accept Michael.

And I think the last one is the only bit that's going to have any long-term consequences -- if it even does; SPN has this well-established history of faffing around on things like that. *g* Next episode he could totally change his mind again for some other reason.

Heh...I haven't seen the last 2 eps but I've skimmed reviews and everyone has mentioned that line. I swear, at this point I'm starting to suspect that at least one of the writers is actually openly a raging misogynist and is taking sick pleasure at writing such shit and having women watch it anyway. As oogie as that is to think about it's almost better than thinking that they're doing this entirely subconsciously. Hey guys, that money you get from making this show, you might want to invest in some therapy?

bwahah. And there's more, too. So much more where that came from. XD

I am not a person who's particularly bothered by words like "bitch" and "whore" in context - though I think I've been more sensitive to it lately, and I blame SPN at least partly for that - but this episode? Pretty much every other line! And given that it's a demon either inhabiting the body of, or taking the form of, a teenage girl, Dean's basically making a joke out of it and it really is so very not funny - "Let's go all 'pimp of Babylon' on her ass!" he says at one point. D: Okay, yes, I can ... actually see Dean saying that (at least Raging Asshole Dean, which is basically who he's been for the last couple of seasons), but it's pretty much gotten to the point where I just don't really sympathize with these characters anymore.

SPN really has become a prime example of When Bad Shows Happen to Good Characters. I'll probably keep watching for the crack and the lulz, but, sigh, I do miss season 1!

Not to mention, like we were talking about (I think it was a conversation I had with you?) -- How Not To Do An Epic, i.e. by killing off everyone who isn't the main characters and ignoring the rest of the world. Like I was commenting above, we now have a whole town full of already-trained, already-organized demon-fighters who've just had a fantastic demonstration of how insidious and dangerous their enemy is. Plus a badass fighting priest, which means an infinite supply of holy water! Hello, USEFUL ALLIES. But what do you bet we never see them again? Sam and Dean treat the apocalypse as if it's their own personal problem, not something that you might want to, I don't know, WARN PEOPLE ABOUT, or try to recruit helpers, or warn/mobilize the surviving Hunters, or anything like that. It's one thing to be writing the Two Guys Against the World Show when they're on the road fighting individual, scattered enemies, but when it's something organized and something that affects the whole world and it's still just the story of two (increasingly unlikable) guys ... OMG, SPN, SUCK LESS. >_>

Yeah, that was me, and yeah...oh man, that sounds frustrating. Towns of fighters would be cool! Bastions against the darkness! I don't know why they're not trying to tell the world - broadcasting pirate radio, anonymous calls to tabloids, at least, anything to get the word out. It's not just your problems anymore, guys, it's The World! (of course in SPN, "the world" means the USA and maybe parts of Canada. Maybe Mexico if they got chupacabras. And I'm not sure Alaska counts as the US, sorry! :P)

Dean went 5 years in the future and saw the country overrun...maybe it should occur to him that pre-emptive measures might help?? Siiiigh...

(you really need to watch Avatar and B5. When it comes to Epic, no TV I know of does it better than those two...)

you really need to watch Avatar and B5

I know, I know! :D After the semester's over, maybe there'll be time to get hooked on something new. (I might have to pick something that the husband wouldn't be into ... there are a few shows I watch without him, like BH, but generally I feel guilty about not giving him an opportunity to get in on the crack -- since he's working and I'm not at the moment, though, I have a lot more free time than he does.)

And I'm not sure Alaska counts as the US, sorry! :P

*snort* Would you believe I've actually put some thought into that, back in the early seasons when "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Sam and Dean turned up in my town?" was actually something that sounded like a good thing. *g* But I don't think they could cross the Canadian border, at least not without forged documents. It might just be too much of a risk. I don't think they've ever even gone to Canada/Mexico, and the documentation issue is probably why ... plus not wanting to have the car searched when you've got a trunkful of guns.

I don't know why they're not trying to tell the world - broadcasting pirate radio, anonymous calls to tabloids, at least, anything to get the word out.

Gah, I KNOW. I can't think about this too much, because it would just make so much more sense to do, well, anything but what they're doing! And given the particular bent of the show, it's obvious to me that it's never going to do what I want, so I need to either enjoy what they're giving me or give up on it.

(Although as

tieleen points out above, breaking the secrecy would violate one of the central tenets of the SPN universe -- it's pretty much predicated upon this "secret war!" kind of thing. Which makes sense to me; on the other hand, I desperately want to see the people "in the know" networking with each other, like they did back in season two, and it's just too frustrating that the show won't go there.)

Edited 2010-04-10 20:40 (UTC)

I'm... going to second the B5 thing. It will restore your faith in show writers like a miracle cure. There is a caveat - season 5 of B5 is not like the others - but it's still beautiful.

I wish I could comment on SPN - reading the discussions here have been fascinating - but I tried so hard to get into the show and couldn't. I enjoyed S1 (I found it to be genuinely creepy, sometimes scary, and I love it when a show can pull me in like that), but then the whole angels/demons thing started coming up more, and that just isn't something I'm interested in. Somehow, we have four seasons of DVDs in the house (my husband really, really loves the show), so maybe I'll watch it so I can at least discuss it intelligently.

But. Babylon 5. It will give you back a part of your soul that you never knew was lost.

There's no reason why they couldn't tell people and fight with others.. it's create a few more storyline posibilities and offer some character growth. Informing towns and leaving helpers in their wake would be pretty cool. And, if they need to... once they've won the war???? ... they could have it that God or whoever finally intervenes, wipes everyone elses memories and leaves Dean and Sam as the only ones that can remember... which would be annoying and yet a tiny bit plausable.

But yeah, this season has kind of lost its way :(

So, I have to ask... are you considering SPN more or less crack/badfic than SGU? ;)

Haven't seen SPN myself... I've had titbits coming my way for a while, and they all succeed in putting me off more (except for Cas. Someone keeps sending me youtube clips of Cas, and I rather like him). But, that above quote's for real? 0_o

So, I have to ask... are you considering SPN more or less crack/badfic than SGU? ;)

*snorfls* Actually, this is a funny week to ask me that, since I quite enjoyed "Divided" and SPN turned me off more than any episode since the doldrums of season three ...

I do feel for people who are fannish about either show, since the fannish consensus is pretty negative and I remember how frustrating it was trying to fan on SGA when the entire fandom (it felt like...) had decided that the show sucked.

On the other hand, it's actually quite relaxing right now that I'm not watching anything I'm genuinely fannish about! There are a few shows I'm following, but nothing that I would be upset if I missed a week or got accidentally spoiled for; nothing that would ruin my day if I ran into a string of negative reactions or such.

But, that above quote's for real? 0_o

Yes. Sadly.

I ... really don't know what advice I would give to someone at this point about watching SPN. Seasons one and two are really good. After that, there are occasional good episodes and good moments, but overall far more bad than good (IMHO).

I do like SGU a lot, as I think you know. Although I can see why it doesn't appeal to a lot of people, which is a pity really because I occasionally feel quite guilty about liking it! ;P

I'm not especially fannish about it yet, though. I'm getting sucked into the Criminal Minds fandom at the moment (lurking as yet), where I have to admit I was quite surprised at the low amount of ship wars, and the fact that nearly everyone seems to multiship. And the characters who get bashed on tend to be the two who left the show a couple of seasons ago, rather than current main cast members - a nice surprise! Mind you, I get upset about any spoilers, even for shows I'm not that fussed about but watch anyway.

I don't think that I will watch SPN. I've already got Bones to fill my 'show which I keep coming back to despite thinking I should really just give up', after all ;)

This is the show I don't admit to anyone else that I like. To be fair I kept past the few things I didn't like at the beginning because I was desperate for spaceships and aliens on my TV...and then I kind of got hooked.

Not sure I'm fannish about it...but it's gotten interesting lately. :)

I think if SGU lost the stones for good and just kept going forward it could become really good. The whole going back to earth for booty calls...is problematic for me. Having said that there is so much potential here.

No one should feel guilty about liking what they like! Actually, this afternoon I've been reading a bunch of posts on Mary Sues from Metafandom (http://delicious.com/metafandom) and thinking about the general culture of negativity in fandom (my above post being an example of it, I think!) and how judgmental we all can be about other people and the things that other people like and identify with. *muses*

Oh SPN. *sigh* yea, the crack is taking over. I agree with OMG - tell everyone you idiots! and I can't believe how blind the writers are being by ignoring the 'world' so to speak.

Really! They have such a promising, interesting world, and they started to develop it in season two (with the Roadhouse and other Hunters and whatnot) -- and then they pulled back, killed off all the supporting characters and haven't really tried again since.

The way I figure it, the show is at a "the world is screwed, so why even try" point - at least where Dean is concerned. He's seen possible "futures," he's seen groups mobilizing to fight back only for the effort to fall apart spectacularly, is occupied with hiding from both angels and demons and is slowly getting sucked into a major emo void. As for Sam... well... he's pretty preoccupied too, and I could totally see some reluctance on his part on spreading the word and banding people together out of fear that it'll only go wrong (or get a lot of people killed, thus heaping on the guilt).

Common sense, I think, is pretty much chucked out the window at this point because, for the characters, despite all their holding out for hope they're actually feeling pretty hopeless. They're going through the motions since it's the only thing that has remotely worked for them, holding off what they feel is the inevitable and trying really hard not to think about the future.

But that's just my personal take on the matter. Every time we've seen any kind of mobilization of forces it hasn't ended well. A lot of people have been lost, both friends and family, and I can totally see that souring the boys toward getting anyone else involved, even if everyone else is already involved.

And I'm pretty sure people are mobilizing and spreading the word off screen, so to speak. I do think the show needs to show that more, though; show us that people are waking up to the fact that it's the Apocalypse, and I can see the show doing that toward the very, very end of the season (as in the season finale). Or not, who knows. But I can also see the majority of the world trying real hard to ignore the goings on, as people tend to do when a lot of bad stuff is happening (and as long as that bad stuff has yet to affect them).

Yeah, I do think that all makes sense and ties into what I'm seeing in the show too: oncoming apocalypse --> increasing nihilism in the characters --> increasingly antisocial behavior --> bad consequences --> more nihilism, etc. Which is understandable. I mean, heck, it's a wonder that Sam and Dean haven't been drinking themselves into oblivion every day. But it makes a freaking depressing show to watch every week!

"But it makes a freaking depressing show to watch every week!"

Very true. It's why my viewing is starting to lean toward the sporadic. Well, that and I'm not a big fan of one continuous story line (as I was telling my sister last night). I like stories of the week, monsters of the week. To use fanfic terms, I like one-shots, not WIPs :D And SPN has become somewhat of a WIP.

The funny thing is that I actually like long plot arcs and ongoing stories - but only if they're tight, cohesive and well done. SPN really feels like it's wandering around. The shows I've enjoyed the most with ongoing plot arcs tended to have fairly contained arcs of 4 or 6 or 8 episodes, or a half season, or whatever, with self-contained stories in between. Or else they did a much better job than SPN does of combining the self-contained stories with the long-arc themes (like Life on Mars did). SPN is kind of ... the worst of all possible worlds, I guess, with the long arc dragging on FOREVER and getting darker and darker, interspersed with self-contained stories that just feel irrelevant and distracting, because it's hard to enjoy a fluffy monster-of-the-week case with the Apocalypse hanging over their heads ...

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SPN 5x17

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