![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Babylon 5 randomness
I rewatched Neroon's introduction episode last night (and then a few more across his arc). It's so fascinating going back to season one now!
I was actually just going to watch his introduction scene, but ended up watching his whole first episode and then the rest of his scenes throughout the series,because I hate joy. I wish we'd had just a couple more episodes with him, and I can't believe what a turnaround on him I did, after being completely indifferent to him at first! Honestly I feel sorry for him in that first episode, in which he's not only the recipient of Delenn's body-snatching bait and switch, but when she does get the upper hand, she then proceeds to grind the boot on his face as hard as possible. Anti-human racism aside, no wonder he was so willing to throw her to the wolves in season two.
He has an absolutely badass introductory scene, though - that slow march with the banners and honor guard.
That first episode - 1x18 "Legacies" - really brings home how much more messed up with PTSD and generally distrustful of the Minbari Sinclair is compared to Sheridan later. I know part of this is simply because Sheridan stepped into season two of Sinclair's character arc, so they didn't want to rehash the same territory with both characters. But they are very different, and it's fascinating to me that Sheridan, whose main wartime claim to fame is killing a lot of Minbari, is actually somewhat more easygoing about them in general than Sinclair is. Of course, they're different people, and it also makes psychological sense that Sinclair - who doesn't remember what he did in the war, and came out of it in a much more weird and ambiguous position - has more conflicted feelings than Sheridan, who had a fairly straightforward role and came out of it a war hero (and also dealt with the fighting in a less up close and personal way than Sinclair - commanding a battleship vs being a fighter pilot, basically). So I do feel all of that tracks, but it's still interesting to see how much wariness Sinclair has about them.
"Legacies" is also the episode with the teenage telepath, which has one of my least favorite bits in all of season one, that line about Na'Toth's mind being "cold, ugly, and alien." I had nearly forgotten what absolute dicks everyone was to the Narns in season one - Ivanova trying to argue her out of going to the Narn homeworld by pointing out that it's a barren wasteland and the money they're offering her isn't worth being surrounded by Narns all the time! That's going to be pretty different later on, too. I do wish Na'Toth had been able to stick around, and now I crave a fanfic in which the girl (Alisa) meets other Narns, maybe even Na'Toth again, when she's been on Minbar for a few years and isn't quite as put off by aliens as she was here ...
Anyway, then I also watched the Neroon scenes in season two (honestly pretty forgettable, he's a one-note asshole here, though as noted above, not entirely without cause) and season three (the episode where he does his heel face turn, not incidentally the point when I started liking him; Marcus making him laugh is such a great bit) and season four (❤️❤️❤️😭😭😭). I can't believe he's only in five episodes; he has such a solid character arc and seems like so much more a part of the show than he really is.
I was actually just going to watch his introduction scene, but ended up watching his whole first episode and then the rest of his scenes throughout the series,
He has an absolutely badass introductory scene, though - that slow march with the banners and honor guard.
That first episode - 1x18 "Legacies" - really brings home how much more messed up with PTSD and generally distrustful of the Minbari Sinclair is compared to Sheridan later. I know part of this is simply because Sheridan stepped into season two of Sinclair's character arc, so they didn't want to rehash the same territory with both characters. But they are very different, and it's fascinating to me that Sheridan, whose main wartime claim to fame is killing a lot of Minbari, is actually somewhat more easygoing about them in general than Sinclair is. Of course, they're different people, and it also makes psychological sense that Sinclair - who doesn't remember what he did in the war, and came out of it in a much more weird and ambiguous position - has more conflicted feelings than Sheridan, who had a fairly straightforward role and came out of it a war hero (and also dealt with the fighting in a less up close and personal way than Sinclair - commanding a battleship vs being a fighter pilot, basically). So I do feel all of that tracks, but it's still interesting to see how much wariness Sinclair has about them.
"Legacies" is also the episode with the teenage telepath, which has one of my least favorite bits in all of season one, that line about Na'Toth's mind being "cold, ugly, and alien." I had nearly forgotten what absolute dicks everyone was to the Narns in season one - Ivanova trying to argue her out of going to the Narn homeworld by pointing out that it's a barren wasteland and the money they're offering her isn't worth being surrounded by Narns all the time! That's going to be pretty different later on, too. I do wish Na'Toth had been able to stick around, and now I crave a fanfic in which the girl (Alisa) meets other Narns, maybe even Na'Toth again, when she's been on Minbar for a few years and isn't quite as put off by aliens as she was here ...
Anyway, then I also watched the Neroon scenes in season two (honestly pretty forgettable, he's a one-note asshole here, though as noted above, not entirely without cause) and season three (the episode where he does his heel face turn, not incidentally the point when I started liking him; Marcus making him laugh is such a great bit) and season four (❤️❤️❤️😭😭😭). I can't believe he's only in five episodes; he has such a solid character arc and seems like so much more a part of the show than he really is.
no subject
Same! When I was rewatching, most season 1 episodes were less bad than I was bracing for, but that part not so much.
Very interesting points and Sheridan vs Sinclair, and I agree completely. It also makes me think of what you said in an earlier post (I think a script books one? I've lost track...) about Bruce Boxleitner not being seen as a dramatic actor, and so making Sheridan sort of goofy and happy-go-lucky as a result -- which is such an interesting angle for decorated war hero/war criminal (and galactic savior later on, although I'm definitely less sold on that part of his role).
no subject
Yes! That was indeed from one of the book posts, and it's such an interesting approach to take; I think it is one of those examples of what we were talking about of JMS swinging into improvisation that really worked, because his original idea for that character was very different from what I can tell, more of a swashbuckling leader type, very Sinclair. But then he got an actor who he didn't think could work with that archetype, so he ended up creating this character who was a golden retriever goof, and it just kind of - works, imho, it makes him distinct from Sinclair at first glance and turns the rest of the storyline into something that would have played out very differently with Sinclair in that key role.
One thing I did go to look for was whether there was anything in the books on the Legacies script and woe, there was not, because the books only have the scripts/commentary on the ones JMS personally wrote - which I had not realized until then. I suppose it makes sense from both the standpoint of not having as much to say about the others, and maybe not the full rights; and also presumably not alienating people he might want to work with again in the future - he does talk about what he feels works/doesn't work about the ones he wrote, and it would've been interesting to find out if some of the nuance with human telepaths dealing with alien minds got lost here, or what!
no subject
If you didn't already find them in your adventures with FedEx, I don't know about commentary, but the non-JMS scripts were collected under the omnibus title Other Voices. I'm really sorry the book site just self-nuked.
no subject
no subject
Yes! I was reminded of that during your first time through the show. I also always think there's so much more of him. I attribute some of it to the writing and a lot of it to John Vickery.
no subject
Yes! I was noticing on this rewatch how expressive Neroon is, a lot more so than than either the makeup or the extremely straight-laced character could have allowed him to be, and that's pure John Vickers; it's great. (The actors really gave their all in this show. That, and they struck pure gold with so many of them.)
no subject
A+. That cast should have had Emmys coming out their ears.
no subject
Badmouthing the Narn: to be fair, G'Kar does do some skeevy stuff in the first season (and in the original pilot!), and the Narn government is responsible for the unprovoked attack and takeover of the Centauri outpost at the start of the season (which is then mirrored by the Centauri Shadow backed attack of the Narn outpost at the end of the season). So you can understand why they don't have the best public image in s1, where they're very much the new and coming power acting often in a "we can do what we want now, so there!" way. (Though you'd think the fact they supplied Earth with weapons in the recent war would also have gained them some sympathy, never mind the colonization by the Centauri backstory.) This said, Alisa's line sounds genuinely xenophobic, especially since she doesn't say anything of the sort about the equally alien Delenn, and if you haven't watched the rest of the show, you could very well believe it is trying to contrast "nice" aliens (Minbari) with bad aliens (Narn). Then again, "nobody here is exactly who they seem" (G'kar to Catherine Sakai) is also an early s1 line, and so I'm inclined to go with "it's intentionally misleading, given what's in store with the Narn".
no subject
This said, Alisa's line sounds genuinely xenophobic, especially since she doesn't say anything of the sort about the equally alien Delenn
Yes! That's the specific thing I have trouble with. That the Narns have reputations as warmongering troublemakers, and most of the other races distrust and are prejudiced against them, is perfectly well set up by the first season, I feel. It's narratively solid. But that specific line reads as confirmation of the bias in a more objective way, if that makes any sense - I think I'd be fine with it if there was any suggestion that she also struggles with Minbari minds in the same way, so it's just aliens generally - but going with the Minbari is her happy ending, so clearly she doesn't. So how then are we meant to take the fact that she finds Narn minds cold, dark, and horrible? Maybe the point is that Na'Toth is a PTSD-ridden mess faking normal functionality, which probably a lot of Narns are; maybe the point is that different alien minds feel different, which clearly they would, but it's still a choice that it's Narns she finds unpleasant in that particular way.
As for it being contradicted by the rest of the show: yes. It is. And I'm perfectly well aware that part of the series arc is that we at first misjudge the Narns along with everyone else in the show and then find out that they're not like that. But it's still in that episode as a reasonably objective-ish confirmation of that bias. I mean, to use a very loaded example from real life: you can write a scene in which a fairly naive telepath reacts with horror to the mind of someone who typifies their race's worst racial stereotypes, and the rest of the show can contradict that in general, but you still have that episode to deal with, and the way that it makes at least somewhat objective what would otherwise have been in the prejudices of the individual characters. We don't have prejudices about Narns, they're not real, so it doesn't matter in any big-picture way - it doesn't hit us the same way as
cut for IRL ugly racial stereotype
if she'd looked into a Black person's mind and saw nothing but raging violence and lust(Of course, all of THAT aside, it's literally one line in the show, and the show also e.g. contradicts itself on some of the early worldbuilding and characterization in various places - there are noticeable things like the alien makeup changing, and I also recently noticed how readily and easily Londo apologizes to someone or other in The Gathering - for testifying against Sinclair - when later on it's a major point of characterization that he doesn't apologize. So stuff is going to change; it's a 5-year series being written on the fly, and not everything is going to hold up perfectly well when measured against later seasons. For all we know, that scene was setting up something important about Na'Toth that we'll never know because whatever storylines she would have had were dropped later; or maybe it's simply a minor, unimportant line that came out worse than intended and was only ever meant to indicate that Alisa struggles with alien minds and also implicitly confirm what we think we know about the Narn at that point in the series.)
MEANWHILE, BACK TO NEROON.
also because knowing how he developes really does create a very different resonance if you watch his earlier scenes
It really does. I think it was interesting how much sympathy I had for him in this episode, because I do think he's sincerely acting how he thinks is best for his clan, in a situation where his caste had their honor trounced ten years ago and need to regain some, and then he gets his honor trounced *again* by Delenn when she pulls the Grey Council card on him and forces him to grovel. She's not wrong that he needs to learn to bend, but doing it that way is just going to make him double down harder, which in fact IS what happens a year later when he ends up on the Grey Council. (Though it is another interesting touch of characterization that he doesn't seem motivated to restart the war at that point, even though he disagreed with the way it ended and might actually have the power to do it, with the warrior caste now dominating the council; his vitriol is directed primarily at Delenn.)
no subject
(Back on this bullshit now that I am no longer actively feverish! Edited multiple times because I kept thinking about it.)
Neroon and his relationship to honor is like six feet of id in a spectacular black coat because it's such an obvious driving force in his life and it's so tangled up with pride, caste, clan, personal, that he does feel for two years like someone who'll break himself before he bends—he's a monumental dick to Delenn during his brief tenure on the Grey Council, but he sounds so sincerely, rawly betrayed even just recounting how he felt when he learned the reason for calling off the war, shaming the entire warrior caste with an insult-to-injury nonsensical as well as unconditional surrender—and then he does something like yield the denn'shah to Marcus, a flat-out abdication of honor that not even the loophole of a spiritual death feels as though it can totally waive and he just rolls with it. It's not even like his apology to Sinclair which he had to be grateful to be allowed to make in private. He doesn't leave himself anywhere to hide, throwing down his pike in front of a ceremony's worth of witnesses and visiting Marcus in medlab afterward the same way and it's like watching someone fall the other way across a moral event horizon, both because I finally realized he's another one of these characters who have to get themselves in alignment with their principles and because on the other side of his heel face turn, his honor/shame calculus is still weird as hell. His best sense of humor is at his own expense. Minbari lie all sorts of ways, but Neroon does it like a rug in order to get his shai alyt to the Starfire Wheel. It may or may not formally count as dishonorable, being for the greater good and all, but there's no sense that he would care if it did so long as it saved his world, just as it was the right thing to screw his reputation and forfeit the denn'shah. One of the only reasons I am reconciled to his sacrifice is that it's so much in this character, including the part where he's supposed to stick to a plan and nah. He looks like the reactionary voice of his culture and he's almost as odd a Minbari as Delenn. One of the many reasons I mind so much that we don't get to see where it takes him. (I also noticed at some point on rewatch that while Vickery is decently tall and certainly looms over Mira Furlan, he's frequently blocked in scenes with taller male actors, which even with the crest makes him look like a perpetual second, Branmer's aide, Delenn's substitute. It probably does something to the balance of sympathy.)
no subject
Minbari lie all sorts of ways, but Neroon does it like a rug in order to get his shai alyt to the Starfire Wheel. It may or may not formally count as dishonorable, being for the greater good and all, but there's no sense that he would care if it did so long as it saved his world, just as it was the right thing to screw his reputation and forfeit the denn'shah.
I actually had forgotten completely when I was rewatching these episodes about the Minbari prohibition against lying! Which once again is a neat example of how the alien cultural stuff on the show is just that - cultural. And it's clever of the show to get that onscreen with Londo and Lennier, then point it out explicitly later - but never really make a big deal about it otherwise. Of course it's cultural, and just like any cultural prohibition against anything (extramarital sex, drinking alcohol, etc) there are people who wouldn't have done it anyway, and people who work around it for all they're worth. We talked about this with Londo (essentially being an emotionally monogamous person in a polyamorous society) but the Minbari and lying is even more interesting, because I'm pretty sure every single Minbari we see onscreen well enough to be developed as a character does actually lie now and then - of course they do! They're people! But the way they work around this, and maintain their image of themselves as a good person while still doing things like that to get what they want or do what they believe is right, is really individual .... Actually it'd be interesting to go back and watch the last couple of Neroon episodes with that in mind, because I wasn't really paying attention to it and I'd like to see if he and Delenn get through their entire conspiracy without *explicitly* lying to anyone, even though what they're doing is lying up the wazoo by implication.
EDIT: Actually I don't even have to go back and rewatch - Delenn just straight up lies to Neroon about what she's planning to do at the Starfire Wheel (that she's going to step back out of it, when she knows full well that she isn't). Actually in some sense that lie is the reason why he died, because he wasn't prepared for what she was planning, although of course her intent was only to prevent him from stopping her. (Which he did anyway, as it turns out.)
One of the only reasons I am reconciled to his sacrifice is that it's so much in this character, including the part where he's supposed to stick to a plan and nah. He looks like the reactionary voice of his culture and he's almost as odd a Minbari as Delenn. One of the many reasons I mind so much that we don't get to see where it takes him.
I knowwwww. I would've loved him as an ongoing character beyond the sacrifice episode, and the Minbari could have used him too; ironic for what he was like on the Gray Council, but he's exactly the kind of leader they could really have used to lead them into their new era.
But the end to his arc is also yet another example of the way that the show handles its major conflicts, where the way through to some kind of peaceful resolution is usually by finding the "secret third thing." The war between the religious and warrior castes is resolved by Neroon and Delenn working together to find a solution - just like it's Londo and G'Kar working together to free the Narn, and dying together to free the Centauri. It feels thematically right that Neroon ends the war by dying for Delenn, as both religious *and* warrior caste .... but I really wanted to keep him around and see where he goes!
(Possibly more thoughts to come later about the rest of it, but I need to get this posted for now.)
no subject
Thank you! I am working on staying not feverish, too.
but the Minbari and lying is even more interesting, because I'm pretty sure every single Minbari we see onscreen well enough to be developed as a character does actually lie now and then - of course they do! They're people! But the way they work around this, and maintain their image of themselves as a good person while still doing things like that to get what they want or do what they believe is right, is really individual ....
Yes! I don't think we see a meaningful Minbari character who doesn't at some point lie. Most of it is done by implication, omission, and double-speaking, with the same allowances for self-deception as any other sentient species. Only when it's done for the sake of another is there any honor in outright falsehood. And this highly relevant workaround gets its first explicit airing in "The Quality of Mercy" (1x21), but it's in play in "Legacies" (1x17) where a first-time viewer wouldn't even know to look for it: it's in the shape of the final cover-up. Delenn can justify her lie about the mystical translation of Branmer's body since the truth would exacerbate the tensions between the two castes he belonged to, but Neroon is blackmailed into supporting it because his clan would otherwise suffer dishonor to the point of destruction thanks to his actions, which sounds like a tactical nuke of a guilt-trip when Delenn drops it on him, but a threat of personal disgrace cannot actually, culturally compel a lie, besides which Neroon at this stage of his life has a streak of mutually assured destruction and it takes her pulling that direct order from the Grey Council—a direct insult, as if she doesn't trust him without the chain of command to keep his word—before he subsides completely, humiliated and furious as he is about it. The only salvage of honor she leaves in him that conversation is the bitter silver lining of protecting others at the cost of his own honesty hi Tacroy vibes nice to know you too have always been here which is just as much of a punishment because there would have been nothing to hold over the Star Riders if not for him. Sending him off to apologize to Sinclair is just an extra fuck-you. It is seriously no surprise he returns the compliment the next time they meet. But this entire dance occurs before the show has even touched on the one Minbari-specific layer of it, reads just fine to a human audience without the knowledge, and is consistent in hindsight with what we later learn. Because I watched most of Season 1 in catch-up re-runs, I saw "Legacies" after "The Quality of Mercy" and it leapt out at me. I have never actually tracked how many explicit lies are told by Minbari characters and under what circumstances, but I think you're right that it's not discussed further except for that one episode which hinges on whether a Minbari witness can or cannot have perjured himself. To gravitate inevitably back toward "Grey 17 Is Missing," it fascinates me that Neroon actually offers to lie for Marcus at the point in the denn'shah where it's filtering through to him that he doesn't want to kill his opponent but he has not yet grasped that the Ranger is playing by Minbari rules for real. It may be misdirected, but it doesn't feel like an option that would even have crossed his mind in Seasons 1 or 2.
Randomly because it's mentioned in "Legacies," the other thing about Minbari culture that I find really interesting is that it is at least vestigially matriarchal: in cross-caste matches like the one which produced Branmer, the mother's caste and clan affiliations supersede the father's. Not much is done with this worldbuilding that I remember, but it makes me want to check the gender ratio in any group of Minbari onscreen.
EDIT: Actually I don't even have to go back and rewatch - Delenn just straight up lies to Neroon about what she's planning to do at the Starfire Wheel (that she's going to step back out of it, when she knows full well that she isn't). Actually in some sense that lie is the reason why he died, because he wasn't prepared for what she was planning, although of course her intent was only to prevent him from stopping her. (Which he did anyway, as it turns out.)
Yes! And most of Delenn's long-range chessmastering throughout the series works out, but this one was bound to fail because if she had really taken the measure of her ally, she would have known that Neroon would never have let her die. Boiled down past all the rituals of honor and the prickliness of grievance, he really does believe in the value of life and a warrior's duty to defend it. And he's a tactician and she's too valuable a piece on the board.
(He does lie directly to Shakiri. I checked. Playing up his role as mole within the religious caste, he claims that his inside information will deliver an easy victory for the warriors and mocks his religious contacts for swallowing the soft-hearted legend he used to get it: "I could no sooner move against the leader of my caste than I could grow wings and fly across the moon." His entire plan with Delenn—as he understands it—banks on destroying the credibility of the leader of his caste on live interstellar TV. And he totally sells the line, with an amused incredulous sarcasm for the idea that his loyalty could be questioned even as a virtue. His apology to Sinclair was very sincerely presented, too.)
I would've loved him as an ongoing character beyond the sacrifice episode, and the Minbari could have used him too; ironic for what he was like on the Gray Council, but he's exactly the kind of leader they could really have used to lead them into their new era.
He would have been brilliant. And watching him have to figure out how to work with the new Grey Council when the last time he was basically just there for the spite would have been fascinating. He wouldn't have had an easy job and he would have been ideally suited for it.
It feels thematically right that Neroon ends the war by dying for Delenn, as both religious *and* warrior caste .... but I really wanted to keep him around and see where he goes!
It really is him channeling all those protective instincts he felt toward Minbar and directed for so long as anger toward the humans—and the religious caste—instead. Babylon 5 as a show plays endlessly with foils and reflections and Neroon is in the same cluster of characters as Londo or Bester where their love for their people can lead them either to the best of themselves or the worst and usually it happens by turns. Ultimately he's much more in the Londo camp, sacrificing himself for his world without a second thought. That said, I am filing an official request for an AU.
(Possibly more thoughts to come later about the rest of it, but I need to get this posted for now.)
(I appreciate that you did!)
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
It's also a bit of an interest-killer that his human character is a fascist propagandist who just happens to have nice bone structure.
(The Minbari warrior gear looks stupid hot on Neroon.)