Babylon 5 randomness

[sholio]

I rewatched Neroon's introduction episode last night (and then a few more across his arc). It's so fascinating going back to season one now!


I was actually just going to watch his introduction scene, but ended up watching his whole first episode and then the rest of his scenes throughout the series, because I hate joy. I wish we'd had just a couple more episodes with him, and I can't believe what a turnaround on him I did, after being completely indifferent to him at first! Honestly I feel sorry for him in that first episode, in which he's not only the recipient of Delenn's body-snatching bait and switch, but when she does get the upper hand, she then proceeds to grind the boot on his face as hard as possible. Anti-human racism aside, no wonder he was so willing to throw her to the wolves in season two.

He has an absolutely badass introductory scene, though - that slow march with the banners and honor guard.

That first episode - 1x18 "Legacies" - really brings home how much more messed up with PTSD and generally distrustful of the Minbari Sinclair is compared to Sheridan later. I know part of this is simply because Sheridan stepped into season two of Sinclair's character arc, so they didn't want to rehash the same territory with both characters. But they are very different, and it's fascinating to me that Sheridan, whose main wartime claim to fame is killing a lot of Minbari, is actually somewhat more easygoing about them in general than Sinclair is. Of course, they're different people, and it also makes psychological sense that Sinclair - who doesn't remember what he did in the war, and came out of it in a much more weird and ambiguous position - has more conflicted feelings than Sheridan, who had a fairly straightforward role and came out of it a war hero (and also dealt with the fighting in a less up close and personal way than Sinclair - commanding a battleship vs being a fighter pilot, basically). So I do feel all of that tracks, but it's still interesting to see how much wariness Sinclair has about them.

"Legacies" is also the episode with the teenage telepath, which has one of my least favorite bits in all of season one, that line about Na'Toth's mind being "cold, ugly, and alien." I had nearly forgotten what absolute dicks everyone was to the Narns in season one - Ivanova trying to argue her out of going to the Narn homeworld by pointing out that it's a barren wasteland and the money they're offering her isn't worth being surrounded by Narns all the time! That's going to be pretty different later on, too. I do wish Na'Toth had been able to stick around, and now I crave a fanfic in which the girl (Alisa) meets other Narns, maybe even Na'Toth again, when she's been on Minbar for a few years and isn't quite as put off by aliens as she was here ...

Anyway, then I also watched the Neroon scenes in season two (honestly pretty forgettable, he's a one-note asshole here, though as noted above, not entirely without cause) and season three (the episode where he does his heel face turn, not incidentally the point when I started liking him; Marcus making him laugh is such a great bit) and season four (❤️❤️❤️😭😭😭). I can't believe he's only in five episodes; he has such a solid character arc and seems like so much more a part of the show than he really is.

Comments

[hamsterwoman]

"Legacies" is also the episode with the teenage telepath, which has one of my least favorite bits in all of season one

Same! When I was rewatching, most season 1 episodes were less bad than I was bracing for, but that part not so much.

Very interesting points and Sheridan vs Sinclair, and I agree completely. It also makes me think of what you said in an earlier post (I think a script books one? I've lost track...) about Bruce Boxleitner not being seen as a dramatic actor, and so making Sheridan sort of goofy and happy-go-lucky as a result -- which is such an interesting angle for decorated war hero/war criminal (and galactic savior later on, although I'm definitely less sold on that part of his role).

[sovay]

I can't believe he's only in five episodes; he has such a solid character arc and seems like so much more a part of the show than he really is.

Yes! I was reminded of that during your first time through the show. I also always think there's so much more of him. I attribute some of it to the writing and a lot of it to John Vickery.

[selenak]

Neroon was a character whom I really only discovered for me when first rewatching the show, not just because by then I was paying more attention to the Minbari than during the original broadcast time when the Centauri and Narn had taken all my focus, but also because knowing how he developes really does create a very different resonance if you watch his earlier scenes. Ditto for Delenn, of course. Mind you, I do still wonder whether she really expected everyone on the Minbari side to swallow "it was a miracle!" as an explanation. But then, Delenn along with the entire religious caste expected the warrior caste to accept the surrender order without giving them any explanation whatsoever, so...

Badmouthing the Narn: to be fair, G'Kar does do some skeevy stuff in the first season (and in the original pilot!), and the Narn government is responsible for the unprovoked attack and takeover of the Centauri outpost at the start of the season (which is then mirrored by the Centauri Shadow backed attack of the Narn outpost at the end of the season). So you can understand why they don't have the best public image in s1, where they're very much the new and coming power acting often in a "we can do what we want now, so there!" way. (Though you'd think the fact they supplied Earth with weapons in the recent war would also have gained them some sympathy, never mind the colonization by the Centauri backstory.) This said, Alisa's line sounds genuinely xenophobic, especially since she doesn't say anything of the sort about the equally alien Delenn, and if you haven't watched the rest of the show, you could very well believe it is trying to contrast "nice" aliens (Minbari) with bad aliens (Narn). Then again, "nobody here is exactly who they seem" (G'kar to Catherine Sakai) is also an early s1 line, and so I'm inclined to go with "it's intentionally misleading, given what's in store with the Narn".

[lyr]

I came to adore Neroon (and also find him surprisingly hot, considering how very Not Hot the actor was playing his other B5 role.) I also wish we'd gotten more time with him.

[sholio]

It also makes me think of what you said in an earlier post (I think a script books one? I've lost track...) about Bruce Boxleitner not being seen as a dramatic actor, and so making Sheridan sort of goofy and happy-go-lucky as a result

Yes! That was indeed from one of the book posts, and it's such an interesting approach to take; I think it is one of those examples of what we were talking about of JMS swinging into improvisation that really worked, because his original idea for that character was very different from what I can tell, more of a swashbuckling leader type, very Sinclair. But then he got an actor who he didn't think could work with that archetype, so he ended up creating this character who was a golden retriever goof, and it just kind of - works, imho, it makes him distinct from Sinclair at first glance and turns the rest of the storyline into something that would have played out very differently with Sinclair in that key role.

One thing I did go to look for was whether there was anything in the books on the Legacies script and woe, there was not, because the books only have the scripts/commentary on the ones JMS personally wrote - which I had not realized until then. I suppose it makes sense from both the standpoint of not having as much to say about the others, and maybe not the full rights; and also presumably not alienating people he might want to work with again in the future - he does talk about what he feels works/doesn't work about the ones he wrote, and it would've been interesting to find out if some of the nuance with human telepaths dealing with alien minds got lost here, or what!

[sholio]

I also always think there's so much more of him. I attribute some of it to the writing and a lot of it to John Vickery.

Yes! I was noticing on this rewatch how expressive Neroon is, a lot more so than than either the makeup or the extremely straight-laced character could have allowed him to be, and that's pure John Vickers; it's great. (The actors really gave their all in this show. That, and they struck pure gold with so many of them.)

[sovay]

(The actors really gave their all in this show. That, and they struck pure gold with so many of them.)

A+. That cast should have had Emmys coming out their ears.

[sholio]

I love that icon! <3

This said, Alisa's line sounds genuinely xenophobic, especially since she doesn't say anything of the sort about the equally alien Delenn

Yes! That's the specific thing I have trouble with. That the Narns have reputations as warmongering troublemakers, and most of the other races distrust and are prejudiced against them, is perfectly well set up by the first season, I feel. It's narratively solid. But that specific line reads as confirmation of the bias in a more objective way, if that makes any sense - I think I'd be fine with it if there was any suggestion that she also struggles with Minbari minds in the same way, so it's just aliens generally - but going with the Minbari is her happy ending, so clearly she doesn't. So how then are we meant to take the fact that she finds Narn minds cold, dark, and horrible? Maybe the point is that Na'Toth is a PTSD-ridden mess faking normal functionality, which probably a lot of Narns are; maybe the point is that different alien minds feel different, which clearly they would, but it's still a choice that it's Narns she finds unpleasant in that particular way.

As for it being contradicted by the rest of the show: yes. It is. And I'm perfectly well aware that part of the series arc is that we at first misjudge the Narns along with everyone else in the show and then find out that they're not like that. But it's still in that episode as a reasonably objective-ish confirmation of that bias. I mean, to use a very loaded example from real life: you can write a scene in which a fairly naive telepath reacts with horror to the mind of someone who typifies their race's worst racial stereotypes, and the rest of the show can contradict that in general, but you still have that episode to deal with, and the way that it makes at least somewhat objective what would otherwise have been in the prejudices of the individual characters. We don't have prejudices about Narns, they're not real, so it doesn't matter in any big-picture way - it doesn't hit us the same way as

cut for IRL ugly racial stereotype

if she'd looked into a Black person's mind and saw nothing but raging violence and lust

but it basically is that given that we don't get any other explanation than Narns are simply like that while Minbari aren't.

(Of course, all of THAT aside, it's literally one line in the show, and the show also e.g. contradicts itself on some of the early worldbuilding and characterization in various places - there are noticeable things like the alien makeup changing, and I also recently noticed how readily and easily Londo apologizes to someone or other in The Gathering - for testifying against Sinclair - when later on it's a major point of characterization that he doesn't apologize. So stuff is going to change; it's a 5-year series being written on the fly, and not everything is going to hold up perfectly well when measured against later seasons. For all we know, that scene was setting up something important about Na'Toth that we'll never know because whatever storylines she would have had were dropped later; or maybe it's simply a minor, unimportant line that came out worse than intended and was only ever meant to indicate that Alisa struggles with alien minds and also implicitly confirm what we think we know about the Narn at that point in the series.)

MEANWHILE, BACK TO NEROON.

also because knowing how he developes really does create a very different resonance if you watch his earlier scenes

It really does. I think it was interesting how much sympathy I had for him in this episode, because I do think he's sincerely acting how he thinks is best for his clan, in a situation where his caste had their honor trounced ten years ago and need to regain some, and then he gets his honor trounced *again* by Delenn when she pulls the Grey Council card on him and forces him to grovel. She's not wrong that he needs to learn to bend, but doing it that way is just going to make him double down harder, which in fact IS what happens a year later when he ends up on the Grey Council. (Though it is another interesting touch of characterization that he doesn't seem motivated to restart the war at that point, even though he disagreed with the way it ended and might actually have the power to do it, with the warrior caste now dominating the council; his vitriol is directed primarily at Delenn.)

[sholio]

Hahaha, I agree about Neroon being anomalously hot! He's probably the only Minbari that I do find actually hot - Mira Furlan is a very beautiful person, but Delenn in her full Minbari makeup is more cute than sexy. Possibly it's impossible to put someone in that much black leather and march around with a long swirly coat and have them not be hot.

[lyr]

And the voice! Don't forget the sexy voice.

[sovay]

Possibly it's impossible to put someone in that much black leather and march around with a long swirly coat and have them not be hot.

It's also a bit of an interest-killer that his human character is a fascist propagandist who just happens to have nice bone structure.

(The Minbari warrior gear looks stupid hot on Neroon.)