I'm not sure if this quite constitutes a "rant" or not...

[sholio]

It's just something that's been vaguely bothering me in perusing episode reactions over the last few weeks -- well, all right, over the last few years to be honest, but it's been more noticeable lately for some reason. It has to do with objections to the way men are characterized on SGA.

Basically, it appears that at least some of the fandom object to the guys of SGA being depicted as, well, guys: divvying up alien princesses, competing to impress a girl and the like.

I hate to tell you folks, but this not only reads as perfectly normal guy behavior to me, but it is just the very tip of the iceberg -- if anything, SGA is sanitizing for television like whoa. I've had plenty of opportunity in my life to observe men of all ages in their natural habitat, i.e. sans women (or at least women they felt like censoring themselves around), and, yes, I can pretty much assure you that most of your boyfriends, husbands, brothers, and male friends really do get together amongst themselves and rate women based on breast size, compete over who has the biggest/best/most guns/cars/other male status symbols, show off in stupid ways to attract the attention of the nearest female thing, make goddawful sexist jokes, and so forth.

And, no, it's not just blue-collar guys that do this -- geeks are just as bad, if not worse. Just more erudite about it. *g*

I'm not sure if the basic objection is the belief that men don't really do this, or if fandom is well aware that men do it and the characters are probably doing it off-camera but we just don't want to see them do it. And I'll fully admit that there's a definite gender imbalance in the way that sort of thing is depicted -- i.e. most women are just as crude amongst themselves and objectify men just as badly (*cough*FANDOM*cough*), but it's not something you typically see on a show like SGA. (This was one of the reasons I liked Trio so much; we finally got to see the women doing a little of that!) But I guess I run into the Wall of Bafflement when I start seeing the implication that the writers of SGA are doing something wrong for depicting their male characters acting like just about every man I've ever known. Maybe I'd be able to see the point more easily if the boys of SGA mistreated women, or had trouble taking orders from women, but they don't; John, for example, seems to have a perfectly easygoing friendship with Teyla, and no trouble at all accepting Elizabeth or Sam as his boss. (Well, no more trouble than he does with any authority figure.) The one real exception I can think of is Rodney's dismissive attitude towards Sam, but it's not specifically her -- he's just the same way with Zelenka or any other scientist around him, regardless of gender.

I guess I'm also hugely biased because I actually like SGA as, basically, the Red Green Show in space. That's a big part of its appeal for me -- I crack up watching grown men behaving like the little boys that I am absolutely positive my husband and all my male relatives would turn into if you gave them a spaceship and a big box of alien robot parts. I can certainly recognize that this might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't want my guys sanitized and watered down, and I get a little knee-jerky defensive of them, especially since they don't seem to have any behavioral problems other than acting like overgrown adolescents as soon as the womens' backs are turned, which is exactly what most of the guys I've known do, too.

(Though I could totally go for more of the girls being girls, as well as the guys being guys.)

Comments

[beadattitude.livejournal.com]

DUDE ::agrees with you::

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

We know they're socially impaired dorks, but we love them anyway ... *g* (The fictional ones, and the real ones!)

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's the same issue women viewers have when the guys start teasing each other a bit too much. GUYS TEASE THEIR FRIENDS - it's what they DO. But some female viewers don't like that kind of teasing and take it personally on their favorite character's behalf. Which is why you get the people who throw fits when they think Rodney is teased a to much - never mind the fact that he usually needs a good mocking for being such an obnoxious arrogent ass.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I see that complaint about the guys teasing each other, and I have to wonder -- do these people know any guys? Because that's what they do! And Rodney totally deserves to be taken down a peg every once in a while. I love the guy, but all his friends know better than to let his ego get out of control!

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Guys don't have to be sexist anymore than they have to be racist or homophobic. Having characters spout racist and homophobic shit would be completely realistic, too, but it's certainly not something I want to see.

It's not about wanting characters to be sanitised; I'm fine with characters with problematic traits. It's about not wanting privilege and -isms to be celebrated.

"It's just boys being boys" is the same objection people have to fans pointing out sexism in SPN...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I figured that you'd probably disagree with me on this. *g* But, to quote one of the commenters below, "they're men and they're human", and I like them that way. I think I'd be more on board with the sexism complaint if their actual behavior towards women was inappropriate -- if they had trouble working with or taking orders from women, abused their authority over their female co-workers or invaded their personal space. Or if the structure of the show was set up in such a way as to make them right, to reward them for their behavior. But they don't and they aren't and it (in most cases) isn't, and to me, a little bit of male posturing and point-scoring doesn't make them anything more than convincingly characterized men. That kind of thing doesn't bother me in real life, and it doesn't bother me on the show.

"It's just boys being boys" is the same objection people have to fans pointing out sexism in SPN...

Sure, and you know what? I think they have a right to that opinion. Personally, I do see sexism in SPN, but other people I know who watch the show don't. *shrugs* Jumping into other people's discussions of sexism and racism, trying to make them shut up, is inexcusably bad behavior and it boggles me that so many people are that entitled. But holding one's own opinions in one's own journal -- nothing wrong with that, not that I can see. It's a big huge Internet out there. (Which is not to say that I object to you disagreeing with me here -- not at all! But I think you're comparing apples to oranges. If I were running around evangelizing my belief in the journals of fen who are trying to discuss sexism in SGA, then I think it would be a better comparison. But I'm not.)

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Oh, I so agree with you. The only time I got pissed off with the boys-will-be-boys bit is that stupid fist-bump in Whispers. But that was only because it was inappropriate for John as the military commander to act that way, and it's not a way I've ever seen John act before around the women he works with. Had it been Rodney and Carson? Yes, I could have seen it. Or if it had been four hot alien babes? I'd have had no problem with it other than (in both cases) an eyeroll at the immaturity.

I've seen some comments regarding Ronon & Rodney's conversation at the end of Tracker about how indignant some people were feeling about "may the best man win". I found that attitude baffling because how is this not allowing Jennifer to make a decision? She can tell both of them to take a hike if she so chooses, or she can make her own move if one did decide to back away and that was the one she was truly interested in. That conversation was one that two women could just have easily have had if they were both interested in the same man.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I do agree that the fist-bump in "Whispers" was kind of inappropriate for John as their CO. But ... I didn't think it was totally OOC for him, either. (His surprise at the all-female team -- that did strike me as OOC. John strikes me as a guy who, all juvenile joking aside, doesn't have any genuine problems working with women ... and that scene tends to imply the opposite, or at least that there are very, very few women in the Atlantis military -- which, I guess from what we've seen, may well be true!)

It's the "Tracker" discussions that really set me off. *g* Because, yeah, Jennifer is absolutely the one in control here! What the boys do amongst themselves doesn't matter a hill of beans (except in the interests of not killing each other or destroying their relationship over a woman).

[leesa_perrie]

Totally agree with you on this, both in defence of their behaviour and in the lack of women being pretty much the same (except in Trio - I love that 'who would you' game, so true to many offices I've worked in over the years!) - and agree also that the behaviour is toned down from reality (even the Trio scene was)!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Hee, I know! At the moment I work with a mostly-female group, and oh wow, the conversations we have ...! Enough to make the ears of every man in a five-block radius turn red. *g* Which I guess is why I haven't the slightest problem with men having those sorts of conversations too ... and I know for a fact that they do!

[gnine.livejournal.com]

I think there's the double problem going on of wanting to idealize the guys. "Men can be crude, act like little boys...but not *our* guys, they're above that". (Which, as you've pointed out, in my experience, there are VERY few guys that are) and the fact that they DON'T show the equivalent with the women. If the women are getting put on a pedestal again and again, if we're being shown the ideal, not reality, with the female characters, why not the men?

There are also feminist arguments along the lines that it's because these sorts of behavior are SO prevalent in all walks of life, from the work place, to TV, that men are constantly being told "it's okay" to talk about women like objects, etc. Women are NOT shown doing the same, (like in SGA) so while we might in private, it's considered unladylike, improper, while boys are excused as just being "boys" and thus gender inequality subconsciously continues to spread.

At the same time, I love my boys acting like their adorkable 12-year old selves, so...*shrug*

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I think you're right, both on the idealization and the fact that gender balance isn't observed -- we don't see the women being similarly uninhibited (though it's reasonable to assume that they have their moments too -- and we've had a couple of conversations to that effect: Sam and Keller in Trio; Teyla and her friend in Sunday).

But the more I think about it, the more I'm realizing that what's really bothering me is seeing what I consider normal human sexual attraction being discussed as if it's the same thing as harassment and gender discrimination -- as if two men, in private, can't have a light-hearted conversation about sexy women (as we do, about them!) without being a couple of sexist assholes. The men of SGA are (with rare exceptions) respectful to their female co-workers and perfectly fine with working as equals or taking orders from female commanders. I realize that the two situations don't map perfectly because of the male/female power imbalance, and I'm not saying the men of SGA have never done *anything* that's beyond the pale, but I still don't see their general behavior towards the women as any more sexist than, well, ours towards them.

[greyias.livejournal.com]

Blasphème! That you would even suggest such a thing...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I like my utterly unrefined and socially clueless boys. *g* (The real ones, too!)

[anniehow.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know what you mean. I'll often be reading some funny and squeeful episode reaction and suddently there's a capslock THAT'S MYSOGINIST BEHAVIOUR, YOU FAIL! And I'll be left going "bhzu?? That's- MILD! Real guys are much worse."

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I know, dear lord, the things we've seen on SGA basically rate a 1 on the 1-to-100 scale of RL male behavior! All I see is the characters acting like perfectly normal men ...

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

Oh goodness, yes. And its not just SGA--every fandom I've ever looked at has the same problem. An issue with men being men. I also see it with the women. I know I'm the Keller soapbox stander lately, but someone on SGAHC actually called her the "Atlantis Bike" after Tracker. It's mind-boggling. All I can assume is that those who vocalize their dislike for something which I consider normal, human behavior are either sheltered or immature or both.

Bottom line is, they're men. And they're human. And the more human they're allowed to be, the more interesting they are. And people who whine and moan about it....well, I'm just glad I don't know any of them personally (because I'd probably be bored out of my gourd).

[wildcat88.livejournal.com]

someone on SGAHC actually called her the "Atlantis Bike" after Tracker

People were calling Keller that on GW after Trio because she asked Rodney for a drink. *boggles* You won't find anyone more conservative than I am, but I was floored to hear them criticize Keller because she ALMOST kissed Ronon weeks before she asked Rodney out. Like flirting with 2 guys in the space of... what, a month? made her a whore. I've done that in the space of 10 minutes.

I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now.

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

Oh, another thought, on the issue of whether the behavior is "sexist" and should be avoided at all costs--no. I agree with you that there is a huge difference between what they say, and how they act. None of the men have issues working for and with women. The women always stand on their own in this show, and that is something the show has aspired to since the beginning. And I greatly appreciate it.

Look, I work in an old boys club--my profession is just that way. So I hear cracks all the damn time, but it doesn't bother me because I give just as good back. It's part of my psyche, and I think it's healthy.

What bothers me is when an old male judge calls me by my first name in court and doesn't respond to my objections, calling me "sweetie". What bothers me is when an adversary won't meet my eyes, but will meet the eyes of my fellow lawyer sitting next to me, even if I'm the senior counsel. What bothers me is when I'm not given respect for who I am and what I do. THAT is what I consider sexist, and that's not part of SGA. They can crack wise all they want, so long as it doesn't manifest itself into actions like those above.

So...that's all I'm saying.

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

I disagree with you for one reason. I don't think anyone likes being portrayed as a stereotype. And SGA is kinda full of stereotypes at times. In a bad episode, Ronan is pretty much a bad klingon all over again. And I think it's really rare to see a show that doesn't treat men as beer swilling testosterone delivery systems that talk about women constantly. Do men talk about women, their breast size, who has the most toys? Yes. But that's not everything that every man does.

There should probably also be a reverse bechdel rule, that dictates that two men can have a conversation with one another about a woman without descending into adolescent bickering, competition, or descriptions of the relative size of genetalia. Not that such a rule would be really that useful until we got rid of the other rampant problems with how women are portrayed in cinema...

That said, what I'm talking about is likely not the same sort of thing that other people are actually talking about when they're complaining.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

That's certainly fair, and of course there are huge differences among guys, just as there are among women. I guess the thing that prompted this mini-kinda-rant in the first place, though, is the fact that (as you said at the end there) I don't consider the things that seem to get people upset about the show to be anything other than normal human behavior, in a lot of cases not even guy behavior specifically (since women do it too).

I do agree that the SGA writers often lean a little too heavily on stereotypes, though, and I like your idea of the reverse Bechdel test.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Depends on the context. Especially guys doing it in public, to women's faces - yeah, this is realistic, but it's not behavior I condone and it's not what I want to see my heroes doing. TV presents an idealized version of life, people prettier and smarter and funnier and nobler than we are, and I don't see why we shouldn't expect ideals in this as well. Okay, pretty much all guys talk degradingly about women sometimes, but does that mean it's a good thing? A hundred years ago, pretty much all men and a lot of women agreed that women had no business voting; did that make it right?

(I'll admit, living in Japan has made me far more sensitive to sexism than I once was. When I hear other women telling me that of course the female candidate couldn't get picked for Prime Minister, because that's not a job for a woman - or a Japanese friend of mine expressing honest surprise that another friend, C, climbed Mount Fuji, because C was a girl...it gives me perspective on how far America has come, but it also gives me an angle on how far we have to go.

...Um. Climbing off my soapbox now...!)

That being said, I often don't have that much of a problem with it, but when I do I think about it, it's mostly the imbalance that gets to me - not just in SGA but in a lot of shows, that men are "allowed" to objectify women like that, that it's just boys being boys; but women don't/won't/can't do the reverse. I badly want to see it go both ways. (And objectifying in "our" ways, too. Most female characters on TV, talking about which guys they'd want to do, simply flatter the guys in question, because women on TV are almost invariably sexy and desirable. But a couple women slashing guys, talking about what guys they'd like to see doing each other - that would make a lot of guys as uncomfortable/threatened as the objectification of women makes many women. Turnabout is fair play!)

In SGA in specific, I admit that sometimes I get a bit weirded out by John in particular doing the "guy" thing, but that's less the sexism, and more because it can come across as OOC to me, when John comes across as gender-blind the other half of the time. (His initial reactions to the female team in "Whispers" threw me off, not that they offended me so much as it didn't seem like John...) I don't have issues with Rodney because his character was established as a sexist asshole from his first appearance; he can only go up from there!

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

The context is definitely the thing, but I'd have to say, I don't think you'd ever see it happen in a "public" setting on TV, unless they are deliberately setting up that character to be shamed, or seem shameful. I think what brought this about were our being allowed to witness the "private" conversation between Rodney and Ronon, and whether they should be allowed to talk about women in such a way. And I don't see why not. Even in an "ideal" setting, I'd like my guys to seem real when I see them in their private lives.

But I'm with you on the double standard. One of the reasons I liked Vala so much is that she wasn't afraid to express her own feelings about a guy, one way or another. I love Carter, but she was so damned proper that it made her seem wooden in social settings. I wanted her to relax. It's why I got a kick out of Teyla's little back and forth with that girl who blew up in Sunday--it was brief, but it was there....

Perhaps part of the problem on sci-fi shows is that characters like Teyla don't have anyone to talk to, so they have to invent a random female character just to have one brief moment of a real girls' conversation...?

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

I love your discussions, you always make me think. I don't THINK I've been too bad on this.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I wouldn't call it "bad" though, even if you had -- it's just ... not an opinion that I share. (Though I'd never specifically noticed you talking about it.)

[argosy.livejournal.com]

I've seen the kind of reaction you're talking about lately. I kind of wonder if the objection isn't really that *guys* don't act like this, but that *our* guys don't act like this (with a--perhaps unconscious--justification that *Rodney* doesn't act like this because he should be uninterested in anyone but John, and *John* doesn't act like this because he's gay and in love with Rodney).

I'm overthinking, but you know why can't the guys compete over Jennifer? It's not taking away her agency. I'm trying to understand the visceral reactions that seem to attach themselves to anything having to do with her.

[ariadne83]

I think this is especially true of season five - knowing that it's the final season, people on all sides are getting very tense and defensive because they don't want their favourite pairing/whatever to be definitively ruled out.

[sandrine]

I don't even know you, I'm just here randomly via friendsfriends; but I just wanted to comment with a heartfelt THANK YOU!

This sort of thing in fandom (and not just SGA either) has been getting to my nerves for a while now, and you put everything that's wrong with it in a so much more reasonable rant than I could have compiled.

*applauds*

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Well, hello! And thank you very much! It's always nice to know you're not the only one, isn't it?

*loves your icon*

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... Well, I've got pretty good seeing-guys-be-themselves creds too, though in other domains - I've been hanging w/ the geek guys since I was 13, I have a BS from a 80%-male engineering college, sports editor of the school's paper, PhD in a physical science, over six months on scientific research cruises, and, most recently, over a decade working as an engineer. I've seen occasional outright sexism by men, but I've also seen plenty of guys smack (figuratively) each other down for it, I've seen guys craft their lives to exclude boarish men, and I've seen guys be very relieved when they've realized they don't have to run around trying to out-piss each other.

That said - I don't see the occ. bit of posturing, or "yay, girls!" fist knocking, as at all problematic. I think the writers are far more sexist than the characters, iykwim.

- Helen

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

That said - I don't see the occ. bit of posturing, or "yay, girls!" fist knocking, as at all problematic.

Yeah -- as I've been working through my own reactions in the above comments, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that this is what it really comes down to for me: I don't agree that there's a problem with a little bit of harmless horseplay, the way that some fans seem to. I do agree with you that there's a lot of variety between men, and most of 'em are pretty good guys; the one I'm married to is a total "guy" in many ways, but certainly not the sort who'd, say, whistle and catcall at a strange woman. (But, then, neither are John and Rodney.)

[ranlynn.livejournal.com]

Well...since I've always been of the opinion that, most of the time, boys just get 'older' as opposed to 'growing up' the behavior of our favorite SGA guys has never really seem all the different to me.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Hee! Yes. They don't grow up, they just get older. :D (Though most of the women I know are still girls at heart, too!)

[ed263.livejournal.com]

Agrees with you. I have two older brothers and was the only girl in a neighborhood of boys so when I see the boys of Atlantis acting like boys, it doesn't bother me because, well they are boys.

I have not really seen anything that has bothered me and I was really surprised to see many complaining about Sheppard and Beckett doing the knuckle bump when the women turned their backs to walk up the hill. On Joe Mallozzi's blog someone had asked whose idea that knuckle bump was and he stated that it was an adlib by Joe and Paul. So a boys reaction performed by real boys. I personally thought it was cute. They didn't do it in front of the women and they are alive and I would think like women, especially beautiful ones who are capable and strong.

I have not really seen women in general disrespected on the show either. A woman was in charge of the expedition, a woman is the leader of her people and can kick any man's butt, a woman was the team leader of a team, and so on.

As for Sheppard's reaction to the fact that Major Teldy's team was all women, the fact that he looked surprised. I didn't read to much into that, I just figured that Lorne as 2IC sortes through all the paperwork before getting to Sheppard and so by the time it gets to John, he just signs it trusting Lorne to be thorough. Lorne may even cut out alot of the wording and just a summerized form was sent for Sheppard to sign. If you noticed, Major Teldy introduced her team members by rank and last name, as if the first names were held back to hide gender.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Ha, that's kinda cool about the ad-lib! I did not know that.

I must admit that I still have trouble wrapping my head around Sheppard's reaction to Teldy's team. Either female soldiers aren't particularly unusual on Atlantis (in which case, why his strange reaction? wouldn't female gate teams be relatively normal?) or they are unusual, in which case you'd think he would have already noticed the female Marines running around, or learned of the situation through department gossip. I do think your explanation makes the most sense (and I seem to recall something on Mallozzi's blog that was along those lines, that it was a new team and Sheppard had only seen the last names). It kinda contradicts the fanon of Sheppard as a particularly concerned and involved CO, but, thinking about it, all we really have to go by is fanon for that, anyway -- everything else that we know about the man would seem to indicate that he probably does pawn off all the paperwork on Lorne and get involved with running the place as little as possible. *g* (Which is not meant as a critique of Sheppard -- but, that's the kind of person he is!)

[courtberger.livejournal.com]

Rock on! I agree and I know that's how my husband and my brother act and I've seen em in action. :-)

Court

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

*g* Thanks! :D

[calcitrix.livejournal.com]

Mmmm...such thinky posts you have. I had to scrounge really hard at the start to think of any scenes that might have fallen into the category of complaint-worthy. And I couldn't really think of any. Oh, sure, the hand thing with John and Carson, or John talking about Esposito ("The one with the perfect little--"). But "sexist" or "degrading?" Thinking someone is hot (or even sharing that fact with a friend) isn't sexist or degrading unless that person is treated disrespectfully. And the guys treat the women they meet and work with better than many real life guys I know.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I like being thinky!

Thinking someone is hot (or even sharing that fact with a friend) isn't sexist or degrading unless that person is treated disrespectfully. And the guys treat the women they meet and work with better than many real life guys I know.

Yes indeed! That's the crux of my disagreement with fan complaints about those scenes. I don't personally see anything wrong with the characters noticing and commenting on the opposite sex, even if the way they go about it is a little juvenile (as in the Harmony scene) because, when it comes down to it, they do treat the women around them politely and respectfully.

[mcalex22.livejournal.com]

I agree completely with you... most men do think like that. It doesn't diminish that they still respect the women they love but, yeah, they do rate women all the time or they do have some rather laughable habits that I cringe at! It's not out of malice but just a nature, though that's not to say that all men are like that!

I get a kick watching men behaving like, well, men! I love it when John and Rodney are competing for women or act like dorks. I've seen it in guys from 20s to 40s and it never gets old... I think it's amusing when I see men fall over themselves to impress a female. It doesn't ever happen to me but as a third party observer, it always makes me smile.

I have noticed it too - people get affronted when their favourite characters act like... well, men! Fortunately though this is not my pet peeve in the fandom. I'm more annoyed by certain "fans" deciding to "champion" for an actor's cause for some ridiculous reason or deciding that their favourite actor is being mistreated for very stupid reasons. But I won't go there today...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Heh, yes, I get a kick out of their (mis)behavior too, though it can sometimes be more eyerolling than cute when it happens in real life!

And there is a big difference between, say, two guys talking about hot women or doing dumb things to impress a girl, and feeling up a girl against her will or refusing to take orders from a female boss. The latter, yeah, I'd be first in line with the pitchforks and torches if John and Rodney, et al, had done anything like that. But they haven't.

[fawkesielady-ed.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I've never had a problem with the guys acting like guys... in fact, there were times when it made me laugh (because I could So totally see my boyfriend doing the same thing!). Like in Harmony.

Things like that are what make the characters so likable (dare I say lovable? ok I will...) because they are human after all even though they're a fictional character. Now, I wouldn't like to see, say Data from TNG acting like that... but John and Rodney and the other SGA men... totally apropriate!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's it exactly -- I like them because of their flaws, not in spite of them. It makes them seem more human!

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Heh, I love these "sort-of" rants. Because this has also been an annoyance for me, but one I could never articulate except in bits and pieces - namely ranting about people bashing John for his "kirking".

I think perfectionism also plays a part - fans wanting their fave character to be their definition of perfect. I'll admit, I've been that way myself (for moral reasons, though, not sexist). But I'm realistic. I know what "guys being guys" means. And when the boys act like boys, I just think "those silly boys" and move on. Or gush over how adorable they are :D

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about the perfection thing -- and, admittedly, individual fans are going to find certain flaws harder to handle in their favorite characters than others. I was just recently having an email conversation with a friend about that sort of thing -- people writing their favorite characters more perfect than they really are.

Of course, I'm sure I'm probably revising the characters as I write them, too; I'm just not aware of it. *g*

[plasmagun89.livejournal.com]

I must totally agree with you! I have a bunch of male friends and even when I'm with them (we basically grew up together) they are like you described -- cracking sexist jokes etc. But I can't help but like them for it, because the show *me* as a women their male-buddy-mode if you know what I mean. And since one of them wants to be a pilot.. if I would get him a spaceship he would turn into a puddle of goo. I really can empathize with what you're saying, I guess. And like the show as well because they act like they do. It is fun to watch and realistic nontheless! (excuse my bad English, will you? ;) )

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thanks! :D Yeah, for me, the boys-being-boys aspect of the show is really a large part of what I'm watching it for. (And your English seems just fine to me!)

[trystings.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, you lost me a little, but only because I can't think of any blatant sexist 'guy' behavior on SGA that would have people objecting. Are people really that vocal about it?

Yes, McKay makes the occassional remark about 'hot aliens'. Carter and Keller compare notes in Trio. Sheppard and Carson share a fist bump in Whispers, two minutes later major Teldy 'jokes' about her CO's glutes and calves. I think it pretty much evens out.

And boys being boys with their puddle jumpers and computer games and blowing things up doesn't reflect on their attitude towards women, does it? That's just being adorable stress management. :)

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

That's how I see it, too. :) I've seen a number of posts around -- I don't want to single out anyone in specific, but the combination of "Whispers" and the Rodney/Ronon scene at the end of "Tracker" seems to have brought a lot of frustration bubbling to the surface. People are entitled to their opinions, but I like my boys crude and socially impaired. *g*