sholio | I'm not sure if this quite constitutes a "rant" or not...

I'm not sure if this quite constitutes a "rant" or not...

It's just something that's been vaguely bothering me in perusing episode reactions over the last few weeks -- well, all right, over the last few years to be honest, but it's been more noticeable lately for some reason. It has to do with objections to the way men are characterized on SGA.

Basically, it appears that at least some of the fandom object to the guys of SGA being depicted as, well, guys: divvying up alien princesses, competing to impress a girl and the like.

I hate to tell you folks, but this not only reads as perfectly normal guy behavior to me, but it is just the very tip of the iceberg -- if anything, SGA is sanitizing for television like whoa. I've had plenty of opportunity in my life to observe men of all ages in their natural habitat, i.e. sans women (or at least women they felt like censoring themselves around), and, yes, I can pretty much assure you that most of your boyfriends, husbands, brothers, and male friends really do get together amongst themselves and rate women based on breast size, compete over who has the biggest/best/most guns/cars/other male status symbols, show off in stupid ways to attract the attention of the nearest female thing, make goddawful sexist jokes, and so forth.

And, no, it's not just blue-collar guys that do this -- geeks are just as bad, if not worse. Just more erudite about it. *g*

I'm not sure if the basic objection is the belief that men don't really do this, or if fandom is well aware that men do it and the characters are probably doing it off-camera but we just don't want to see them do it. And I'll fully admit that there's a definite gender imbalance in the way that sort of thing is depicted -- i.e. most women are just as crude amongst themselves and objectify men just as badly (*cough*FANDOM*cough*), but it's not something you typically see on a show like SGA. (This was one of the reasons I liked Trio so much; we finally got to see the women doing a little of that!) But I guess I run into the Wall of Bafflement when I start seeing the implication that the writers of SGA are doing something wrong for depicting their male characters acting like just about every man I've ever known. Maybe I'd be able to see the point more easily if the boys of SGA mistreated women, or had trouble taking orders from women, but they don't; John, for example, seems to have a perfectly easygoing friendship with Teyla, and no trouble at all accepting Elizabeth or Sam as his boss. (Well, no more trouble than he does with any authority figure.) The one real exception I can think of is Rodney's dismissive attitude towards Sam, but it's not specifically her -- he's just the same way with Zelenka or any other scientist around him, regardless of gender.

I guess I'm also hugely biased because I actually like SGA as, basically, the Red Green Show in space. That's a big part of its appeal for me -- I crack up watching grown men behaving like the little boys that I am absolutely positive my husband and all my male relatives would turn into if you gave them a spaceship and a big box of alien robot parts. I can certainly recognize that this might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't want my guys sanitized and watered down, and I get a little knee-jerky defensive of them, especially since they don't seem to have any behavioral problems other than acting like overgrown adolescents as soon as the womens' backs are turned, which is exactly what most of the guys I've known do, too.

(Though I could totally go for more of the girls being girls, as well as the guys being guys.)

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DUDE ::agrees with you::

I think it's the same issue women viewers have when the guys start teasing each other a bit too much. GUYS TEASE THEIR FRIENDS - it's what they DO. But some female viewers don't like that kind of teasing and take it personally on their favorite character's behalf. Which is why you get the people who throw fits when they think Rodney is teased a to much - never mind the fact that he usually needs a good mocking for being such an obnoxious arrogent ass.

Guys don't have to be sexist anymore than they have to be racist or homophobic. Having characters spout racist and homophobic shit would be completely realistic, too, but it's certainly not something I want to see.

It's not about wanting characters to be sanitised; I'm fine with characters with problematic traits. It's about not wanting privilege and -isms to be celebrated.

"It's just boys being boys" is the same objection people have to fans pointing out sexism in SPN...

Oh, I so agree with you. The only time I got pissed off with the boys-will-be-boys bit is that stupid fist-bump in Whispers. But that was only because it was inappropriate for John as the military commander to act that way, and it's not a way I've ever seen John act before around the women he works with. Had it been Rodney and Carson? Yes, I could have seen it. Or if it had been four hot alien babes? I'd have had no problem with it other than (in both cases) an eyeroll at the immaturity.

I've seen some comments regarding Ronon & Rodney's conversation at the end of Tracker about how indignant some people were feeling about "may the best man win". I found that attitude baffling because how is this not allowing Jennifer to make a decision? She can tell both of them to take a hike if she so chooses, or she can make her own move if one did decide to back away and that was the one she was truly interested in. That conversation was one that two women could just have easily have had if they were both interested in the same man.

Totally agree with you on this, both in defence of their behaviour and in the lack of women being pretty much the same (except in Trio - I love that 'who would you' game, so true to many offices I've worked in over the years!) - and agree also that the behaviour is toned down from reality (even the Trio scene was)!

I think there's the double problem going on of wanting to idealize the guys. "Men can be crude, act like little boys...but not *our* guys, they're above that". (Which, as you've pointed out, in my experience, there are VERY few guys that are) and the fact that they DON'T show the equivalent with the women. If the women are getting put on a pedestal again and again, if we're being shown the ideal, not reality, with the female characters, why not the men?

There are also feminist arguments along the lines that it's because these sorts of behavior are SO prevalent in all walks of life, from the work place, to TV, that men are constantly being told "it's okay" to talk about women like objects, etc. Women are NOT shown doing the same, (like in SGA) so while we might in private, it's considered unladylike, improper, while boys are excused as just being "boys" and thus gender inequality subconsciously continues to spread.

At the same time, I love my boys acting like their adorkable 12-year old selves, so...*shrug*

Blasphème! That you would even suggest such a thing...

Oh, I know what you mean. I'll often be reading some funny and squeeful episode reaction and suddently there's a capslock THAT'S MYSOGINIST BEHAVIOUR, YOU FAIL! And I'll be left going "bhzu?? That's- MILD! Real guys are much worse."

Oh goodness, yes. And its not just SGA--every fandom I've ever looked at has the same problem. An issue with men being men. I also see it with the women. I know I'm the Keller soapbox stander lately, but someone on SGAHC actually called her the "Atlantis Bike" after Tracker. It's mind-boggling. All I can assume is that those who vocalize their dislike for something which I consider normal, human behavior are either sheltered or immature or both.

Bottom line is, they're men. And they're human. And the more human they're allowed to be, the more interesting they are. And people who whine and moan about it....well, I'm just glad I don't know any of them personally (because I'd probably be bored out of my gourd).

We know they're socially impaired dorks, but we love them anyway ... *g* (The fictional ones, and the real ones!)

Yeah, I see that complaint about the guys teasing each other, and I have to wonder -- do these people know any guys? Because that's what they do! And Rodney totally deserves to be taken down a peg every once in a while. I love the guy, but all his friends know better than to let his ego get out of control!

Oh, another thought, on the issue of whether the behavior is "sexist" and should be avoided at all costs--no. I agree with you that there is a huge difference between what they say, and how they act. None of the men have issues working for and with women. The women always stand on their own in this show, and that is something the show has aspired to since the beginning. And I greatly appreciate it.

Look, I work in an old boys club--my profession is just that way. So I hear cracks all the damn time, but it doesn't bother me because I give just as good back. It's part of my psyche, and I think it's healthy.

What bothers me is when an old male judge calls me by my first name in court and doesn't respond to my objections, calling me "sweetie". What bothers me is when an adversary won't meet my eyes, but will meet the eyes of my fellow lawyer sitting next to me, even if I'm the senior counsel. What bothers me is when I'm not given respect for who I am and what I do. THAT is what I consider sexist, and that's not part of SGA. They can crack wise all they want, so long as it doesn't manifest itself into actions like those above.

So...that's all I'm saying.

I disagree with you for one reason. I don't think anyone likes being portrayed as a stereotype. And SGA is kinda full of stereotypes at times. In a bad episode, Ronan is pretty much a bad klingon all over again. And I think it's really rare to see a show that doesn't treat men as beer swilling testosterone delivery systems that talk about women constantly. Do men talk about women, their breast size, who has the most toys? Yes. But that's not everything that every man does.

There should probably also be a reverse bechdel rule, that dictates that two men can have a conversation with one another about a woman without descending into adolescent bickering, competition, or descriptions of the relative size of genetalia. Not that such a rule would be really that useful until we got rid of the other rampant problems with how women are portrayed in cinema...

That said, what I'm talking about is likely not the same sort of thing that other people are actually talking about when they're complaining.

I figured that you'd probably disagree with me on this. *g* But, to quote one of the commenters below, "they're men and they're human", and I like them that way. I think I'd be more on board with the sexism complaint if their actual behavior towards women was inappropriate -- if they had trouble working with or taking orders from women, abused their authority over their female co-workers or invaded their personal space. Or if the structure of the show was set up in such a way as to make them right, to reward them for their behavior. But they don't and they aren't and it (in most cases) isn't, and to me, a little bit of male posturing and point-scoring doesn't make them anything more than convincingly characterized men. That kind of thing doesn't bother me in real life, and it doesn't bother me on the show.

"It's just boys being boys" is the same objection people have to fans pointing out sexism in SPN...

Sure, and you know what? I think they have a right to that opinion. Personally, I do see sexism in SPN, but other people I know who watch the show don't. *shrugs* Jumping into other people's discussions of sexism and racism, trying to make them shut up, is inexcusably bad behavior and it boggles me that so many people are that entitled. But holding one's own opinions in one's own journal -- nothing wrong with that, not that I can see. It's a big huge Internet out there. (Which is not to say that I object to you disagreeing with me here -- not at all! But I think you're comparing apples to oranges. If I were running around evangelizing my belief in the journals of fen who are trying to discuss sexism in SGA, then I think it would be a better comparison. But I'm not.)

Depends on the context. Especially guys doing it in public, to women's faces - yeah, this is realistic, but it's not behavior I condone and it's not what I want to see my heroes doing. TV presents an idealized version of life, people prettier and smarter and funnier and nobler than we are, and I don't see why we shouldn't expect ideals in this as well. Okay, pretty much all guys talk degradingly about women sometimes, but does that mean it's a good thing? A hundred years ago, pretty much all men and a lot of women agreed that women had no business voting; did that make it right?

(I'll admit, living in Japan has made me far more sensitive to sexism than I once was. When I hear other women telling me that of course the female candidate couldn't get picked for Prime Minister, because that's not a job for a woman - or a Japanese friend of mine expressing honest surprise that another friend, C, climbed Mount Fuji, because C was a girl...it gives me perspective on how far America has come, but it also gives me an angle on how far we have to go.

...Um. Climbing off my soapbox now...!)

That being said, I often don't have that much of a problem with it, but when I do I think about it, it's mostly the imbalance that gets to me - not just in SGA but in a lot of shows, that men are "allowed" to objectify women like that, that it's just boys being boys; but women don't/won't/can't do the reverse. I badly want to see it go both ways. (And objectifying in "our" ways, too. Most female characters on TV, talking about which guys they'd want to do, simply flatter the guys in question, because women on TV are almost invariably sexy and desirable. But a couple women slashing guys, talking about what guys they'd like to see doing each other - that would make a lot of guys as uncomfortable/threatened as the objectification of women makes many women. Turnabout is fair play!)

In SGA in specific, I admit that sometimes I get a bit weirded out by John in particular doing the "guy" thing, but that's less the sexism, and more because it can come across as OOC to me, when John comes across as gender-blind the other half of the time. (His initial reactions to the female team in "Whispers" threw me off, not that they offended me so much as it didn't seem like John...) I don't have issues with Rodney because his character was established as a sexist asshole from his first appearance; he can only go up from there!

Hee, I know! At the moment I work with a mostly-female group, and oh wow, the conversations we have ...! Enough to make the ears of every man in a five-block radius turn red. *g* Which I guess is why I haven't the slightest problem with men having those sorts of conversations too ... and I know for a fact that they do!

I do agree that the fist-bump in "Whispers" was kind of inappropriate for John as their CO. But ... I didn't think it was totally OOC for him, either. (His surprise at the all-female team -- that did strike me as OOC. John strikes me as a guy who, all juvenile joking aside, doesn't have any genuine problems working with women ... and that scene tends to imply the opposite, or at least that there are very, very few women in the Atlantis military -- which, I guess from what we've seen, may well be true!)

It's the "Tracker" discussions that really set me off. *g* Because, yeah, Jennifer is absolutely the one in control here! What the boys do amongst themselves doesn't matter a hill of beans (except in the interests of not killing each other or destroying their relationship over a woman).

I like my utterly unrefined and socially clueless boys. *g* (The real ones, too!)

I know, dear lord, the things we've seen on SGA basically rate a 1 on the 1-to-100 scale of RL male behavior! All I see is the characters acting like perfectly normal men ...

I love your discussions, you always make me think. I don't THINK I've been too bad on this.

Or if the structure of the show was set up in such a way as to make them right, to reward them for their behavior.

But it kind of is, isn't it? They don't get in trouble, and they get laughs from the audience for it. Casual sexism is harmless and funny, and totally normal and acceptable even among educated, intelligent men who work daily with female colleagues. That's the lesson of most TV.

That kind of thing doesn't bother me in real life, and it doesn't bother me on the show.

I think this is what it comes down to - because while you're comfortable with the sexist posturing in a male environment, a lot of women aren't. You don't see this sort of behavior as especially bad - mildly naughty at worst - so it doesn't offend you to see our boys doing it. But many women do find it as offensive and harmful as, say, casual racism or homophobia - I know I'd be pretty disturbed if John & Rodney started making, say, anti-Semitic or homophobic jokes, even though quite a lot of guys of my acquaintance make them. (Hell, I suspect some of the guys aren't that comfortable with such things themselves - but they keep doing them because "boys will be boys" and they're going along with the status quo, as established in modern media. Sexism, like racism and the other -isms, is self-perpetuating by its nature...)

I've seen the kind of reaction you're talking about lately. I kind of wonder if the objection isn't really that *guys* don't act like this, but that *our* guys don't act like this (with a--perhaps unconscious--justification that *Rodney* doesn't act like this because he should be uninterested in anyone but John, and *John* doesn't act like this because he's gay and in love with Rodney).

I'm overthinking, but you know why can't the guys compete over Jennifer? It's not taking away her agency. I'm trying to understand the visceral reactions that seem to attach themselves to anything having to do with her.

I don't even know you, I'm just here randomly via friendsfriends; but I just wanted to comment with a heartfelt THANK YOU!

This sort of thing in fandom (and not just SGA either) has been getting to my nerves for a while now, and you put everything that's wrong with it in a so much more reasonable rant than I could have compiled.

*applauds*

The context is definitely the thing, but I'd have to say, I don't think you'd ever see it happen in a "public" setting on TV, unless they are deliberately setting up that character to be shamed, or seem shameful. I think what brought this about were our being allowed to witness the "private" conversation between Rodney and Ronon, and whether they should be allowed to talk about women in such a way. And I don't see why not. Even in an "ideal" setting, I'd like my guys to seem real when I see them in their private lives.

But I'm with you on the double standard. One of the reasons I liked Vala so much is that she wasn't afraid to express her own feelings about a guy, one way or another. I love Carter, but she was so damned proper that it made her seem wooden in social settings. I wanted her to relax. It's why I got a kick out of Teyla's little back and forth with that girl who blew up in Sunday--it was brief, but it was there....

Perhaps part of the problem on sci-fi shows is that characters like Teyla don't have anyone to talk to, so they have to invent a random female character just to have one brief moment of a real girls' conversation...?

I think, as you say, a lot of it simply does come down to me not being bothered by that sort of boyish (and girlish) sex-talk in real life, so other people being bothered by it is totally baffling to me. Of course, other people are completely entitled to their opinions, as long as they don't try to drag me along with the bandwagon! But I feel quite justified in defending myself, as well.

But what really bothers me about some of these discussions is that I feel as if healthy, normal male sexual attraction is being pathologized as sexist and sick and wrong, that there's no way a man could be attracted to a woman, and express it, without stepping on toes. And I have a major problem with that, especially coming from a fannish subculture that waxes rhapsodic about John's hair and Rodney's shoulders. I mean, complaining about the show objectifying women, and then turning around and writing slash, is ... deeply confusing to me. Objectification is only okay when fen do it, I guess? I just don't agree that heterosexual men admiring and talking about sexy women is, in and of itself, a sexist act. Men and women talking about the other gender (in hugely objectifying and often uncomplimentary terms) is a human universal. Get a group of women together, and they'll start talking about men; get a group of men together and they'll start talking about women. (Unless it's gay men and women here, in which case, swap the gender pronouns.) So -- why shouldn't the show depict that? I would like to see more balance, with the women doing the same thing, but I don't see people calling for balance so much as calling for it to not be done at all, and that's what I have a problem with.

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I'm not sure if this quite constitutes a "rant" or not...

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