And in writing news

[sholio]

I'm still browsing posts on the Magicians finale, but I've had one open in a tab for awhile: this post by seperis. And the reason is because of this:

But there's also this: any hack on earth can write tragedy. Devastating your audience is the easiest thing in the world.

You know what's hard? Blowing their minds with sheer joy. Shock them by giving them what they didn't even know they could want. I think I can count the times on one hand where a show managed that. To get it, you have to work for it.

I just kind of feel like something clicked into place for me, reading that. As a writer, I want to do that; I want to do it so badly. It's true, I think: it's so much harder to surprise!delight your audience than shocking people with a sudden tragedy as so many books, shows, and movies do. Some of the most burned-into-my-brain moments from various things I've loved have been the times it managed to do that to me. The Ben January books did it on several different occasions. I actually squealed out loud with joy at two different points during the Iron Fist season 2 (accidentally turned out to be the series) finale, in both cases because I really didn't expect to get what I wanted and the show delivered it to me EXACTLY. And certain things that Agent Carter did, as a show, that will make me love it forever. And Stranger Things. And others, of course -- more books than TV, I think.

I have always had a profound love for things that convinced me they were going not-my-way and then went exactly my way.

I think it's much rarer in part because it's a much more personal thing than surprising people with tragedy. It's so indelibly tied up with what a reader/viewer actually wants. A shockingly beautiful twist for one person might not work at all for another. So I'm not even entirely sure you can set out to do this. You might just end up doing it by accident.

But it's such a moment of transcendental joy when it happens.

#writergoals

Comments

[yalumesse]

oh my god yes.

Sometimes tragedy of some degree is needed to enable that joy, or at least the tension of genuine fear that all is lost, but MAKING JOY. I mean, this is what I live for in fanfic, both reading and writing, and when a show or movie manages it, that's SUCH a surprise and I love it; Agent Carter, as you say, managed that several times and IT WAS MAGIC.

I really needed this post today. Game of Thrones, Endgame and several other shows have made things really down for me lately. Clearly I need to rewatch Peggy's Badass Adventures.

[sholio]

YESSSS. I definitely agree that tragedy is the right choice in some circumstances, and in particular, enough tragedy to make you believe in an unhappy ending is necessary to get that moment of transcendental joy when it doesn't go that way. But ... yes. Those MAKING JOY!! moments when you get exactly what you want are such an amazing experience. I live for them too.

[naye]

Ooooooh. THIS. This makes a lot of things click into place for me. Thank you - I'm going to have to go off and think on this for a bit.

[sholio]

It made so much click for me, too! Inasmuch as I have overall goals as a writer, I want that to be one of them.

[chelseagirl]

I think we've all been conditioned in English class to see tragedy as profound and delight as inconsequential. (Which, in a sidelight, makes me think about the fact that I get applications to work part-time at the Writing Center I run with lists and lists of literary short stories and poetry published by aspirants, whereas, since my first novel is coming out as a romance, I will not be putting it on my academic c.v. Because of how what we do is valued.)

It also reminds me of that transcendent moment in the first season of the revived Doctor Who: "Everybody lives! Just this once . . . everybody lives!"

[sholio]

Oh, yes, that was a great moment!

But yeah ... tragedy and darkness absolutely has its place in fiction (and actually is a necessity, for me, in getting to have those moments of transcendent joy when things do unexpectedly work out), but I think that delight, as a literary technique, doesn't tend to get the same kind of respect.

[melagan]

A thousand times, yes!

[sholio]

You ever have one of those moments when it's like "This. This is what I want to aspire to!" That was one of those moments for me.

[jb_slasher]

Surprise!Delight, yes plz there are enough things in the world that involve death and pain and not-good-things. :/

[sholio]

Not gonna lie, I've been all about the escapism in my entertainment lately. I just want to watch things about people loving each other and having things work out for the best, especially when they have to go through hell to get there.

[sheron]

Yeah, absolutely this. I rarely enjoy a devastating event in fiction on an intellectual level because, well, it's so common. Much of the time it feels "easy" to the writer to do that. But writing an earned Happy (Ending/Journey)? Something shockingly beautiful will make me treasure the story forever. And yeah, AC manages that on some levels for me too :)

[sholio]

Yeah, I was going to say tragedy is easier, though actually I'm not sure if I'd say that unequivocably because it's also pretty easy to write total fluff in which nothing bad ever happens. But combining the two in a way that brings those moments of transcendent joy and delight - that's what's hard. As opposed to combining them in a way that makes it look like everything is going to work out okay and then taking a hard left turn into tragedy, which is pretty darn easy - all you gotta do is drop a rock on somebody.

[ranalore]

I read that post too, and immediately thought, YES. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love an earned tragedy, but those stories that can startle me with transcendent joy, be they television, movies, or written... This is why I watched Leverage on a continuous loop while it was available streaming on Netflix, why it is still and always in my top three favorite live-action series. I think this is why so many people respond so positively to The Good Place, because it argues so smartly for the profundity of joy, the necessity of compassion. I personally most value those stories where I feel like I manage to pull this off, to at least some degree, because it is hard, but it is so satisfying, and as a creator, I feel like it infuses me with joy, too.

[sholio]

Yeah, I'm not averse to darkness and tragedy in my entertainment, but those moments of earned joy are the ones that really stick with me. It's not all that often that a tragedy really sinks into my brain in anything other than a betrayed "must fix" kind of way. This is not to say I haven't enjoyed tragic stories, just that they're not usually the ones that take up a permanent corner of my brain, unless it's in a negative way. But those moments of joy are the ones that stick.

[maplemood]

I think it's much rarer in part because it's a much more personal thing than surprising people with tragedy. It's so indelibly tied up with what a reader/viewer actually wants. A shockingly beautiful twist for one person might not work at all for another. So I'm not even entirely sure you can set out to do this. You might just end up doing it by accident.

I 100% agree with this! I don't think it's something that you can necessarily intentionally do, but when it does happen...gosh. My very best reading/watching experiences all come down to moments like that.

[sholio]

Yessss. It's such a magical experience. I remember moments like that going all the way back to my childhood.

[killabeez]

Yes! Couldn't agree more. There was a thread on Twitter recently where people were talking about TV shows that "stuck the landing." For me, that means exactly the feeling you and Seperis are describing. 12 Monkeys! Leverage! and pretty much any book written by Guy Gavriel Kay. It's what takes me from being a fan in the moment to being a fan forever.

[stultiloquentia]

GGK is such an interesting addition to this list. It's true! Especially in the epilogue of Lions, where I'm not sure I'd even decided which outcome I wanted more desperately until I reached the reveal and just about collapsed with relief.

[killabeez]

I'm glad you agree! I've been thinking about (and re-reading) old favorite fantasy books lately, and so many of his books bring home the satisfying and uplifting endings after much labor on his part (and that of the characters). Relief is a big part of that feeling.

[sholio]

Ohhhh yes. Sticking the landing is so important. There have even been a few things I've been, maybe not indifferent to exactly, but haven't really loved until they delivered a spectacular ending.

[stultiloquentia]

I loved seperis' post for the same reason.

I'm currently reading an oral history of the making of Angels in America, and one quotation struck me much the same way, so I had to grab my phone and take a snapshot of the page. It's one of the actors describing the directing style of George C. Wolfe, who directed the first Broadway production:

"His approach to getting more from you was just one of joy. So often, creativity comes from a place of fear that it's not going to work. George doesn't come from fear. He comes from courageous joy."

As a description of putting together that play in particular...phew.

#writergoals indeed.

[sholio]

Ohhhh, that's a nice way to put it (and yes, especially for that one!).

[xparrot]

I think a really truly satisfying happy ending is one of the hardest things to pull off -- just this, the kind of ending that you don't see coming, or not until near the end; that you want but don't dare believe you're going to get, until you're holding your breath hoping, hoping, hoping for it...

I also think at this point that "shock" deaths and ending are becoming so commonplace in fiction that it's almost easier to shock an audience with triumph instead of tragedy?

[sholio]

Yessss, THAT kind of ending. The kind where you're going "please do the thing, please do the thing" and then it DOES THE THING and all you can do is punch the air in pure delight and then waft around on a happy cloud for hours. :D

I want to do that.

And yeah, I think at this point, "rocks fall, characters die" has been done so much that it's not even really that shocking anymore. In some cases it's more shocking when you get a positive, triumphant ending, especially in a canon that's fairly dark.

[xparrot]

Of recent shows, The Expanse has been so good for that -- it feels like it should be one of those grim-dark, shock-death shows, except the characters actually survive and persevere. And that means they have the chance to grow and develop and it's just so much more interesting.

The other problem with killing characters (especially before the end of a canon) is you get the shock of their death...and then they're gone, and you can't do anything more with that character ever again. And occasionally that's called for; there are some stories that need those holes and losses to be told. But a lot of times it's just slamming the door shut on so many story options. (How many shows kill a character, and then replace them with a really similar character, because they really want to keep telling the same story, they just wanted a cheap way to emotionally affect the audience...)

[sholio]

YES, the closing off of possibilities is one of my biggest issues with killing characters mid-canon. Obviously it's not that characters must never die. But shows that are really into killing characters - it's just frustrating, because there are SO many more stories you could tell, that now you'll never be able to tell. And that genuinely puzzles me as a writer. Why would you do that, when there are so many other things you can do? I think you're exactly right, a lot of shows use it as a shortcut to make the audience feel something. But shows that do it too much have the opposite effect; I don't want to get invested if there's a reasonable chance that the character I'm invested in is going to die ...

[xparrot]

Yeah, that's my big problem with all the show writers and whatnot who talk about "upping the stakes" and "no one is safe" -- they obviously are getting something very different from fiction than I do. A show where "no one is safe" is to me a show that I can't bother to become attached to anyone. What's the point, if the character or the relationship I like most could just end -- and for the proper shock value it won't be at a narratively satisfying point, even; their story has to be cut abruptly short to achieve the trope.

Which, I guess some people enjoy fiction for the plot, for the story; they care most about what happens next. While as I usually am more engaged by who it happens to.

(and I think as a fanfic-writing fan I tend to be more against even final-act deaths, because I want to think about my favorite chars' stories continuing. But a lot of my favorite stories do end with the loss of a hero -- in ways that I love -- so it's not like I'm completely against it. But it has to be done right, and an awful lot don't.)

[sholio]

A show where "no one is safe" is to me a show that I can't bother to become attached to anyone. What's the point, if the character or the relationship I like most could just end -- and for the proper shock value it won't be at a narratively satisfying point, even; their story has to be cut abruptly short to achieve the trope.

Exactly!! I think you're right that a lot of viewers/readers don't engage with it on that level, and that's fine, but I can't really sink into loving it if I can't believe or at least hope that my characters are "safe".

I think as a fanfic-writing fan I tend to be more against even final-act deaths, because I want to think about my favorite chars' stories continuing. But a lot of my favorite stories do end with the loss of a hero -- in ways that I love -- so it's not like I'm completely against it. But it has to be done right, and an awful lot don't.

Yeah, same. There have been some stories I've loved that ended with a death, and some deaths I've loved, even. But mostly it just leaves me with a sense of disappointment and loss for all the stories I can't tell now. Even if it's not something I'm actively writing fic about, I still want the sense of the characters poised on the edge of new adventures, not having their future stories abruptly truncated, leaving the rest of them grieving and scattered.

[tippergreen]

I remember, a long time ago, Bono giving an interview after "Beautiful Day" came out, and he said that is was far harder to write a song that evoked joy than a song that made you cry. Happy songs, he said, can so easily cross the line into inspid, hokey or trivial, and be forgotten or feel repetitive, but if you write that song that everyone, thirty years on, joins in to sing because it makes everyone smile and grin and sing...that's the true measure of an artist. I've had that in my head for years, and your post reminds me of it, because I think it applies to writing too. You need heart, hope, some "bamf" and joy, while keeping things real. I think it's really hard to do that. I think about the White Collar fic, and trying to find that perfect ending for Peter and Neil and how so many fic writers struggled to find it. You can tell the showrunners had the same problem, which is why their ending just wasn't...perfect.

[sholio]

Oh, that's a lovely point about joyful songs vs. sad songs, and very true! Because yeah, writing a solid happy ending that feels earned and satisfying, yet not trite or maudlin, is hard. (And yeah, I think White Collar is a good example of a show that really failed to stick the landing.)

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Yes! That's another of those observations that seems obvious once I've read it, but I never thought of it on my own.

Agent Carter did that for me as well. And 12 Monkeys had this weird mix of almost overwhelming tragedy, one terrible thing after another, interspersed with sudden joy. The joy was always a surprise to the characters and to me, and I think that's why I kept watching it (and they gave us the right finale).

[sholio]

I know! Same here - those moments of unexpected joy are one of the main factors in why I love the things I love, but I had never really recognized it on a conscious level before. I love the way that it's phrased in that post; it's just so perfect.