So you wanna watch Iron Fist

[sholio]

Not gonna lie, I have hopes of dragging other people into this fandom hell sweet iddy show with me if I can, especially since this is probably going to be my playground for indulgent h/c for the next little while. (I've already written quite a bit, and there's more on the way ...)

The problem with Iron Fist (well, one of them) is that it's hard to rec because a lot of people bounce off the first season, and bounce hard. The second season is tighter, better written, does a much better job with Chinatown, and fixes basically everything that was an issue in season one. Unfortunately there's a lot in season one that sets up the character relationships in season two. And some people really do love season one! (I did, with some caveats.) So basically I'd recommend trying season one, and if you find yourself bouncing off but still want to try to get to the good stuff (and there is a lot of good stuff!), you can:

- Watch 1x01 and 1x12-1x13, which will establish the major characters and relationships in S2.
- Skip straight to 2x01. You'll miss some setup, but you can always go back and watch later.
- Watch season one while FF'ing through everything to do with ninjas, China, or kung fu. This was pretty much what I did in the early eps, before getting completely hooked by season's end.

The reason why it's worth it, and the reason why this ended up being my favorite of the four main Defendersverse shows (leaving aside Punisher, which I also adore and is kind of its own thing) is because this show is just so goddamn optimistic about people, and this universe (theirs or ours, frankly) could use some optimism. This is a show about family and love and connection and belonging, and characters actively seeking out those things and learning to build healthy supportive relationships with each other even when they come from terribly abusive/lonely/damaged backgrounds and screw up a lot along the way.

I think people who bounced off of, or noped out on, the other Netflix MCU shows because of the violence, grittiness, or darkness might like this one better. It's a lot more escapist, lighter, and more optimistic. The first season is essentially an off-its-rocker soap opera with ninjas; the second season is more tightly plotted, less batshit, and pays off on a lot of the character setup in really satisfying ways.

It also has some darn good canon hurt/comfort.

And yeah, it's cancelled now, which means (leaving aside the possibility of a revival or the characters turning up in other Netflix shows) two seasons is all there is, and unlike a lot of shows I've loved and lost along the way, it doesn't end on a forever cliffhanger. It's got a very solid ending that wraps up the character arcs in a satisfying way and, while clearly designed as a tease for season three, doesn't feel unfinished, but more like a springboard for further adventures. Unlike the other Netflix Marvel shows, it doesn't tear things down in season two; it builds things up and leaves the characters better than they were before.

There's a list of enticements under the cut - these are mildly spoilery, but just in the general sense of where things are headed that may not be apparent from early season one, rather than specifics.


Enticements

• A gregarious hero who loves people, explicitly seeks love and family and connection rather than wanting to be alone, has healthy supportive relationships with the people he’s close to, verbally bolsters his friends, tries to fix things when two of them aren’t talking to each other, and invites other people along on his Manly Hero Quests because he doesn’t like being alone and he thinks they probably need it too.

• A supportive couple who communicate, trust each other, give each other space, and aren’t jealous or controlling of each other, including the superhero’s non-powered girlfriend never ever trying to make him NOT do hero things even when she’s upset about him getting hurt, because she gets how important it is to him and that they’re not joined at the hip just because they’re together, and he supports her and listens to her and trusts her to be able to handle herself in a fight.

• General themes of the importance of family, and that true family are not just the people you're born to but the ones you choose, including characters explicitly calling unrelated characters their family/brothers/sisters, and saying "I love you" to each other.

• A really great hero arc for the main female character.

• For people who've watched the other Netflix MCU shows, there's a lot of Claire (in season one), and Misty (in season two), as well as some really delightful Jeri Hogarth scenes in S1.

• There are multiple female characters all across the good/evil/morally ambiguous spectrum, resulting in multiple scenes in every episode (in season 2, anyway) of 3 or 4 or 5 female characters doing Plot Things together and that’s no big deal; like this show ends up in season two with more female characters with agency than I’ve seen on almost any superhero show.

• An addiction storyline that includes the addicted character seeking professional help, going to meetings, and trying to fix things with the people they wronged, while also taking into account that nobody you hurt has a responsibility to forgive you and sometimes you just have to deal with that.

• Explicitly deals with anger and revenge, and not letting it control you, and moving forward and being better (with male and female characters).

• Explicitly deals with the fallout from abusive parenting and people trying to move past that and cope and learn how to have healthy relationships as adults.

• Some really nice hurt/comfort. Do you want an entire episode that's just the main characters searching for their friend who's chained to a wall and bleeding out, and then patching him up afterwards while talking about feelings? Then this is a good show for you!


Viewing order:

Because this show is part of the Defendersverse shows and the characters pop up all over, here is the order in which the IF-related shows take place:

1. Iron Fist season one
2. Defenders (includes a lot of Danny & Colleen, and sets up Iron Fist season 2)
3. Luke Cage season 2 - not a must-watch for IF purposes, but includes IF crossover characters in 2 episodes, and also provides setup/background for Misty, who is one of the major IF characters in season 2. The Iron Fist crossover eps are 2x03 (Misty & Colleen) and 2x10 (Danny & Luke).
4. Iron Fist season two

I think you can probably get away with just watching IF 1 & 2 without watching the other shows, but I was glad that I watched Defenders and most of Luke Cage in between; it does help a lot with character setup and generally understanding their universe better.

Basically I love this sweet, charming, well-intentioned kung fu soap opera and I want to be able to share it with other people! I'm requesting/offering it for Yuletide, plan to request/offer for Festivids, and will probably have it as one of my perennial exchange fandoms for awhile, which means that if you like this show and you like my writing, the odds of getting fic from me are very high. :D

Note: I know this show may not be for a lot of people. That's totally fine! I don't mind at all if you don't like it, don't want to watch it, or find it severely problematic. I would prefer not getting comments just to tell me that, though.



ETA: I also realized I should add a list of potentially triggery/squee-harshing stuff (contains some spoilers). Set off a bit so it can be skipped if desired.


Potentially triggery/squee-harshing content:

- In the first season, Orientalism/smooshing together Asian cultures/general cluelessness on the part of the writers towards the Asia/China aspects of the storyline is definitely a thing. This is much better in the second season and (from my perspective, anyway) reads more like lack of attention to nuance than flat-out racism, and having an Asian female character as the secondary protagonist also helps, but YMMV.
- There's a sexual assault on a male character, committed by two female characters, in the 2nd episode of the second season (although he had the option of walking away, he is manipulated/coerced into performing a sex act against his will). This is clearly portrayed as a situation we're supposed to feel uncomfortable about - i.e. not played for laughs - and all the characters involved are antagonists, but there are no repercussions for it.
- A major season one storyline involves parental abuse, including a father gaslighting, manipulating, and physically and emotionally abusing his adult children. (There is nothing sexual and it is clearly portrayed as wrong.)
- There's an addiction storyline that includes relapsing and backsliding.
- The second episode of the first season takes place largely in an 80s-TV-style mental ward complete with involuntary patient drugging and one patient trying to talk another into committing suicide. (IMHO this is actually the worst episode of the series, though again, YMMV. That episode is fairly skippable.)

Comments

[tamsin]

A lighter, optimistic show sounds great! Are you open to answering some questions about it?

[sholio]

Sure, go for it!

I also added a section at the bottom with a list of potentially triggery/squee-harshing content from the show (contains some mild spoilers).

[tamsin]

The bit about triggery content is very helpful, thank you!

Does the show have femslash potential?

[sholio]

It's got tons! There are major female friendships in both seasons, and for the foe-yay options, season two has several different flavors of female antagonist as well (ranging from psycho-killer to manipulative chessmaster types, including an uneasy alliance between female villains with conflicting interests), and lots of screentime for the various female characters.

[tamsin]

Awesome! I can't promise I'll love it but you've definitely convinced me to give the show a try.

[sholio]

Sweet! I understand that it might not be your cup of tea but I hope you enjoy it. :)

[kore]

Is the Misty-Colleen friendship in S1, or more in S2?

[sholio]

It's all in S2. She's not in S1 at all, but she's a major character in S2.

[kore]

I LOVED that scene with them in LC S2. It was so shippy I swooned.

Also, right now there's those digital comics -- not minis, but they come out twice and each issue has like 40 pp -- they're doing Luke, Jessica, Iron Fist, AND Daughters of the Dragon is coming later (sorry if I already told you about these, I'm just v psyched!). And will sell in hard copy trades. (Which makes it even weirder IF just got cancelled, because Marvel specifically said "We're trying to tap into that Netflix market....")

[sholio]

Marvel's decisions re: marketing the comics vs. the movie/TV properties are incredibly weird. Like, Deadpool 2 came out this summer, so Cable skyrocketed in popularity. Instead of milking his solo book for all it was worth, they killed him off. I mean, seriously, what. And they keep doing this. Captain America is hot right now because of the new movie - let's make him evil! And so forth. It's like they don't even seem to understand that the decisions they make in one area could tie into merchandising in the other. Or they try to do it in the stupidest possible way.

I don't know how much to hope for this, but I'm crossing my fingers that the cancellation is in preparation for a soft reboot with a Daughters of the Dragon series in the slot where IF used to be. It just seems so incredibly bizarre that they set up the Daughters of the Dragon team so well in IF2, and then pulled the plug. If they essentially do an IF3 that is basically the same characters but just shifts the primary focus from Danny to Colleen & Misty, I will be ALL OVER that.

[kore]

Yeah, they did that with Civil War -- whoo, here's Civil War, this giant new movie! And in the comics LITERALLY at the same time they were doing Civil War II, which even the old school fans hated. Sales of the old CW book went up, because at least it wasn't as horrible a hot mess as CWII.

And when Jessica Jones was getting a lot of praise, apparently BENDIS wouldn't let go the book and when he finally did it, it was a year late and a lot of momentum had been burned up, and then he wasted 2/3 of the series on tie-in stuff nobody cared about and redid the Purple Man. And they didn't reprint the Alias omnibus -- it had been reprinted ONCE in 2014 -- which would have been easy money.

When Black Panther was a monster hit and people wanted the first Coates book, they hadn't printed enough so it went out of print, and then when people were patient enough to order it and wait for it, it went out of print again, IIRC. There's all this crap about "fans pirating the digital copies, wahh" and the loss of the LCS audience, but would I have bought a new Alias omnibus? Absolutely. And I don't think these are really complicated marketing decisions!

But you know, Roxane Gay has had several best-selling books by now, she's a cultural phenom, they offered her a Marvel book -- and she found out it was cancelled on fucking Twitter, and Coates's original volume was so convoluted, a lot of critics/sites wound up recommending Gay's volume as a good intro supplement. I seriously don't realize how they can think "cancel book by NYT best-selling author, do no publicity for it, ignore grassroots support" is any kind of workable strategy. ....Altho Marvel brass apparently did just listen to Twitter where there was a big grassroots movement to have Eve Ewing write Ironheart, the Riri Williams charater BENDIS created, and Nnedi Okorafor is doing a Shuri book because Shuri popped off the screen in BP into peoples' hearts, so that's better....but their tack record is still awful. And they just cancelled a Chelsea Cain Vision book that had like three issues inked and ready to go already.

//rant rant rant

I'm crossing my fingers that the cancellation is in preparation for a soft reboot with a Daughters of the Dragon series in the slot where IF used to be. It just seems so incredibly bizarre that they set up the Daughters of the Dragon team so well in IF2, and then pulled the plug. If they essentially do an IF3 that is basically the same characters but just shifts the primary focus from Danny to Colleen & Misty, I will be ALL OVER that.

ME TOO. Maybe they're just trying really hard to get over the bad press that IF S1 had, altho I think its ratings were at least okay. And both Missick and Henwick gave such amazing performances.

[schneefink]

Do you want an entire episode that's just the main characters searching for their friend who's chained to a wall and bleeding out, and then patching him up afterwards while talking about feelings? Then this is a good show for you!

Sounds promising ^^
(After all I just watched Guardian for the main characters and the h/c and loved it, and Iron Fist cannot possibly be any worse...)

[sholio]

Hahaha. XD I haven't seen Guardian yet (it's probably only a matter of time) but from all I've heard, I think it's a good springboard for something like this - that is, if you're in it for the character interactions and are sort of laid back on expectations for plot, this show ought to be a good fit!

[lilacsigil]

I think this is a good rundown (and thanks for the sexual assault in S2 content warning). The other thing I'd add is that while it does smush Asian cultures together to some extent it completely avoids the Daredevil thing of lots of faceless Asian ninjas as cannon fodder. The "ninjas" on both sides are of many different races and there are good reasons for this, and there's only one sexy lady ninja briefly in S1 and the other female ninjas are dressed in appropriate street clothes like the male ninjas.

[sholio]

Yeah, to be honest, I actually think Daredevil is worse? The "hordes of ninjas" thing in DD S2 really bothered me in a way that most of the fight scenes in Iron Fist don't - I mean, Iron Fist has its own issues and I don't want to downplay that, but in that particular area, I really felt like Daredevil is actually much worse with the objectification/dehumanizing, because in that show the Asian characters are only villains, and disposable ones at that, while IF includes sympathetic and nuanced Asian characters as both protagonists and antagonists in both seasons.

... so basically yeah, I agree. <3

[kore]

Oh, DD S2 was absolutely terrible on the Orientalism front in a whole bunch of ways -- including that Sigourney Weaver (altho I loved her) was the main villain and not Mme Gao, and IIRC all the Asian characters were villains, and the hordes of faceless ninjas who speed-tiptoed in and were immediately cut down....I THINK S3 is going to have more Wilson Fisk, no ninjas (yay) (but also much less/no Elektra and I am WORRIED about Karen).

Also, I bounced hard off IF S1, but Defenders was really a delight. I'm disappointed they're apparently not going to do a sequel to that one. -- I'm also now worried about Luke Cage, because S2 got a lot less critical attention and lower ratings IIRC....the creator very weirdly listened to this online critic who wrote 10K-word-long diatribes about how much S1 sucked, every episode, and basically crafted S2 with them in mind, which I had never really heard of happening before. And it was not changing the show for the better imhoe.

[sholio]

the creator very weirdly listened to this online critic who wrote 10K-word-long diatribes about how much S1 sucked, every episode, and basically crafted S2 with them in mind

Wow, that's really bizarre ... and really sad, because I really bounced hard off LC2 - I didn't even finish it and mainly just ended up watching the IF crossover episodes and the Misty scenes. I didn't like DD2 either, and I decided not to watch JJ2 after spoiling myself (a good decision in retrospect, I feel). And now I'm hearing in advance spoilers for DD3 that it's really dark this year and Matt is more of an anti-hero than a hero, and just, aaargh! It's incredibly frustrating to me that they seem to be embracing the dark side of the universe. That's why I loved IF2 so much, because it was really upbeat and positive and all about teamwork and cooperation and trying to be better people - and then it got cancelled and I'm worried that they're just going to have "MOAR DARK!" as the guiding principle of the Marvel TV universe, which is really not what I'm here for.

[kore]

Wow, that's really bizarre ... and really sad, because I really bounced hard off LC2

Yeah, I did too, altho we wound up finishing it, and then end PISSED ME OFF in like three different ways. Plus they did Bury Your Gays in a really ugly way. And it seemed much more violent than S1.

The creator seemed really frustrated -- he was like "we're the superhero show nobody talks about anymore," or something, and he was up front about slanting everything because of this ONE reviewer

https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2445080/luke-cage-creator-used-negative-season-1-reviews-to-try-and-improve-the-show

The writer Angelica J. Bastién wrote the recaps for Vulture during Season 1 and, man, there were some critiques that were some of the most scathing reviews I've ever seen in my life. But, she's such an incredible writer that, as a former journalist, I loved what she wrote and how she wrote it even though it hurt. So, I collected all 13 of her recaps and when we established the new writer's room, which was essentially the old writer's room because we had very little turnover, and we decided to approach them one by one.

And I was just like, dude, I don't care how great any reviewer is, or what you think of their brains, that is not the way to create a good show. And S2 was just sort of "Luke loses everything" -- there was a development with Claire I super hated -- and Harlem thought he wasn't a 'real' hero anymore or something and it was all about him being torn down, and the end left him in a super ambiguous/negative place. It was like Buffy S6. And I was just like, call me shallow, but this is not what I wacth superhero shows for, and it is really not what I watch LUKE CAGE for. S1 was like a shot in the arm, it was so energetic and hopeful, and all of a sudden the writer is like "Let's have a war between old time Harlem residents and Jamaican immigrants in Brooklyn!" and it went on and on.

(The same reviewer called Sidney Poitier "too perfect to be interesting" and said the same thing about T'Challa in BP, which just made me fume. I know a lot of younger African-Americans hate the respectability politics thing, but dumping on Poitier?!)

Matt is more of an anti-hero than a hero

OMG, didn't they already do that with S2? It looks like "I can't wear the suit anymore, I can't be Daredevil," and then they bring in Bullseye? Unless we see way more of Claire than we did in the trailers, it looks like this might focus a lot less on women as well. And WHY WON'T THEY BRING ELEKTRA BACK. I don't care about Bullseye. //heresy

[sholio]

So, I collected all 13 of her recaps and when we established the new writer's room, which was essentially the old writer's room because we had very little turnover, and we decided to approach them one by one.

Waaaaaaat. Dude, she's not running the show, you are. That is what you were hired to do. And okay, yeah, taking viewer criticism on board to improve a show can be a Very Good Thing (I'm pretty sure this is why the second season of IF is such an improvement; I know they specifically worked on things like making the fight scenes better) but ... that's pretty much just switching the show's direction in midstream to someone else's vision. And, okay, it might even be all right if they'd ended up with a better show, but what they ended up with was a depressing mess!

OMG. I hated that development with Claire SO much. I assume that Rosario Dawson must've had another commitment that kept her from being able to be in the shows for a few months, because she's not in IF this season either, but what a shitty way to write out a character/ship. (Whole worlds better than killing her, I guess, but it was just SO unfair to both characters, and to viewers who had stuck with the development of that ship from the previous season of LC through their staying in touch while he was in prison to now. I mean, this is the payoff we get for all of that?!)

(The same reviewer called Sidney Poitier "too perfect to be interesting" and said the same thing about T'Challa in BP, which just made me fume. I know a lot of younger African-Americans hate the respectability politics thing, but dumping on Poitier?!)

*screams quietly* See, THIS is why I have so little faith in the Netflix MCU right now to do right by the characters I love. They seem to be rejecting the whole idea of heroism (and everything that goes along with it: cooperation, patience, friendship, commitment to the slow hard work of making things better) and embracing a kind of grimdark nihilism that I hate. If the direction we've seen the shows go is how they're going to continue to go, I'm outa here. I don't mind tearing things down to build them back up, as long as the tearing-down part doesn't go on too long, but when the entire message seems to be "friendship is for losers and real heroes have to embrace their dark side" it's just like ... no.

[sholio]

... and I just realized that the sexual assault scene is in the second episode, not the fourth as I'd originally stated - CRAP. I went and edited that. I had remembered that part of the plot arc happening a bit later in the season. Sorry!!

[maplemood]

You mentioning how supportive Danny & Colleen are of each other made me remember that moment in episode 2 (I think?) where he invites Mary over to their apartment, and even though I know Colleen better than that, I was STILL bracing for her to act jealous or something, because that's what usually happens at this point in a lot of shows, and when she didn't I was just...so very, very pleased. She actually trusts him, and he trusts her, and it's such a breath of fresh air!

[sholio]

YES!! I loved that she wasn't jealous there, even after she realized Mary probably was crushing on him. That was a wonderful scene.

[yalumesse]

Thank you! Knowing what I can skip helps, I may do that.

[sholio]

I'm glad to help! I really want to share this show with people; it's just a tough show to share, in some ways.

[sheenianni]

Can you elaborate a bit more about the paternal abuse storyline?

I have a huge squick/borderline trigger when it comes to person in authority (especially men) yelling at their "underling" (like, there were scenes in White Collar between Peter and Neal that almost made me sick and I absolutely love the show and wouldn't call that an abusive relationship).

I can tolerate this storyline much better when the abuser is clearly a bad guy who doesn't give a crap about his victim - like, Zuko and Ozai is an awful story of abuse but it doesn't trigger me, just makes me hate Ozai and makes me want to move Zuko far far away from him. The Ozai/Azula storyline is almost worse because while Ozai doesn't love her either, he at least finds her useful and appreciates her to a degree as she's the "skilled child".

If it's someone obviously hurting people because they enjoy it or because they can, it's likely a "safe" storyline for me. If it's disguised as "caring" and "I know what's the best for you and that's why I (insert abuse situation)," that might not be a good TV for me to watch.

[sholio]

Hmmm, this is hard to say. The Ozai-Zuko-Azula situation is actually a very good comparison, because there are a lot of similarities, and a clear favorite child. The main difference is that the Zuko in this case, the elder child, adores his younger sister and would do anything to keep her from being hurt, so he intentionally takes most of the abuse to spare her, and their dad knows this and uses it to manipulate them (in a "do this or I'll hurt your sister" kind of way).

The abuser is CLEARLY a bad guy. There is never any point when it's not evident, to the audience at least, that we're not supposed to be sympathizing with him, although it's not always clear to the characters.

Most of the abuse is a Zuko-Ozai type situation, where he is being blatantly awful to one of his grown children and the child is being forced, coerced, or manipulated into going along with it, but knows that he's being played/abused, he just doesn't really have a choice.

However, their dad does also intentionally gaslight them, play them against each other, and occasionally uses the "I'm just doing this to make you strong, it's for your own good" excuse on the Zuko character. The daughter in particular doesn't seem to realize how evil her dad is (mainly because she only ever really sees his fake-nice side). The son is well aware of it and doesn't really believe him but is usually manipulated/blackmailed/browbeaten into going along with him.

Basically: the dad is clearly evil, the abuse is clearly and unambiguously abuse, but he sometimes uses gaslighting tactics that sound like they'd veer into the kind of thing that is a squick/trigger for you.

Does that help?

[sheenianni]

Yes, it definitely helps!

Hmm. Bad guy being clearly the bad guy helps a lot. Evil dad aside, the rest of your describtion sounds great so I think I'll give it a try at least (I still have Season 5 of Orphan Black to watch so probably after that). Thanks for the info :)

[sholio]

Sure! :) (And oooh, Orphan Black is a show I gotta catch up on, I think we only watched to season 2 before getting distracted with other things! It's so good and I've managed to remain unspoiled for it, so I better do that before I accidentally spoil myself on the spoiler hellsite that is Tumblr.)

[booksarelife]

Which episode is this: “Some really nice hurt/comfort. Do you want an entire episode that's just the main characters searching for their friend who's chained to a wall and bleeding out, and then patching him up afterwards while talking about feelings? Then this is a good show for you!”

Because I feel like I might just watch this one and maybe some clips

[sholio]

That's episode 2x05! (Still my favorite.) Actually, if you're only going to watch one episode, that's a good one, because I think you'd get a really good feel from that one for how all the characters relate to each other.

[booksarelife]

I’m sticking with not really watching the show but I realized I wanted to hear what Ward, and also Danny, sounded like, so yeah (I assume Ward is in this episode?)

[sholio]

Yep, he's in it quite a bit!