sholio | Casting spoilers of DOOOOOOOOM! (or not. Ha.)

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Casting spoilers of DOOOOOOOOM! (or not. Ha.)

First off, before I get going,

naye has a lovely review/picspam of the SGA finale located here! Go and squee and enjoy!

Okay. I made a deal with myself that I would avoid all newsblogs and unvetted episode reaction posts until the end of the season, in the hopes of remaining unspoilered. Shockingly, I actually did it -- would have done better except for someone posting one of the very spoilers I was trying to avoid in a comment to one of my episode reaction posts a couple of weeks ago. Oh well.

But the season is done, and I know I can't make it 'till the start of season 5 without looking at any promo pictures or reading any discussion posts, so I decided to rip off the band-aid and spoil myself on the biggies.

So. There is really no way I can warn anyone outside the cut about which spoilers are under it, obviously, so please do not click on it if getting ANY casting spoiler for next season would spoil your day.

The one that I found out early was about Carson. I guess you can see why I was especially ticked about that, moreso than just about anything else I could have been spoiled on, because knowing McGillion's in the cast next year meant that I watched "Kindred II" with that in mind, and it pretty much took all the emotional impact out of the ending. It's actually a classic example of why I hate getting involuntarily spoiled, because I think that a lot of my general lack of squee for the episode had to do with knowing things were going to turn out okay, and frustration that I wasn't getting to watch it unspoiled.

Anyhow, I hope they really deal with the implications of Carson being a clone, and a clone of a dead man. I don't want to see him slotting back into the group dynamic like he never left. I'd like the show to at least pay lip service to having to deal with paperwork reinstating him into the land of the living (or keep him legally dead, even). I'd like to see him struggling with knowing that the memories he has aren't real. I just ... hope that they deal with these things, rather than waking him from stasis and having him pop back to being Rodney's buddy and everyone's confidante just like he never left.

Casting spoilers 2 & 3 are Sam's departure (I have no idea how many episodes she'll be in next season, and would rather not know if I can help it, please) and Woolsey in charge of Atlantis. About that last one, my reaction is basically a gigantic SQUEEEE. I am THRILLED TO BITS, not just because I'm awfully excited at the prospect of watching his character develop, but also because he'll have an utterly different and, I assume, much more adversarial managerial style than either of his predecessors. I'm already head-over-heels with squee in expectation of the ways this is going to shake up and restructure Atlantis.

'Cause, see, one of the things I really LIKE about this show is how it changes over time. So far, in the long run, I don't think I've been genuinely unhappy with any of the changes they made. I loved season 4 and right now, I actually do have confidence in the writers to deliver good things from this. (Teyla's arc notwithstanding, but my problems with that are personal ones.) Just like I was cautiously excited and optimistic about the changes in season 4, I'm excited and optimistic about season 5, and really looking forward to seeing what they do with this!

About Sam -- I really like Sam, as a character, and I liked her on Atlantis, and I'm thrilled that she got to be in charge of the city and run her own battle cruiser, even! But having said that, the whole season I've felt bad for her being separated from her team and her world, and I'm really happy for her that she's, presumably, going to be reunited with them. (Well, I hope they're reunited, anyway. I hope they don't kill her! But I really doubt if they'd summarily execute her like that.) What I want most for Sam is to see her to ride gracefully off into the sunset and enjoy a happy off-camera life with the rest of SG-1 -- just as what I want most for SGA, when it finally wraps up, is to end with the characters looking forward to a future together.

One final comment -- when the casting spoilers were first announced, the way people were reacting, I thought at first that they were going to kill off one of the core team. It's a tremendous relief to know we're getting our team back next year! I really do think I'd still watch and enjoy the show if they took one of them off, even John or Rodney ... but I'm selfishly glad that I don't have to find out the hard way. At least not yet!

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Glad you pulled the band aid off lol! :) I actually really, really enjoyed season 4. And I didn't feel the whole 'sam' thing until midway but she really warmed on me. It's funny, looking back, I can't even pinpoint when she did but she did. I mean, I always liked her in SG-1 but I just felt weird having her lead Atlantis, but in the end I think it worked. And I agree with you on Woolsey. I think it might turn out very interesting and I've always liked Robert Picardo in his Star Trek work and his other Stargate appearances.

I don't want major spoilers but I'm going to read little blog snippets and look at the pictures. That's what I did this year, mostly stayed away from all the hype, and it really did make a difference I think.

But I also think TPTB did a better job not leaking big spoilers. Compared to season three where you could find basic plot summaries before it'd even aired! Or was that season 2, anyway, they were so detailed! Actually I think that was season 2, but season 3 still had some detailed info on the episodes leaked in places. And there were lots of things teased and hinted that wound up not happening and it just made for a let-down in some places.

Also think that season 4 benefited from more TLC. Loved it overall.

This was a great season; I was very happy with it. I wasn't sure if there were fewer spoilers overall or if I was just better at avoiding them -- I definitely knew more about S3 than S4 going into it, but I was also doing things like looking at the high-rez promo pictures before the episodes aired (which spoiled me hugely on episodes like "McKay & Mrs. Miller"), which I didn't do this year.

I'm actually commenting without peeking at the post...! ^^;; Wanted to say thank you for reccing my screencappy review. ♥

And... oh, the spoilers. I don't want to read them right at this moment, because I have to go to sleep and then get up and get to work and... I'm probably going to need hand-holding for it. (My main reason for not reading them has been equal parts general not wanting to be spoiled, and having a really bad feeling that they might make me cry, or something.)

But I want to be able to be part of the fannish community - read other people's posts and comments without keeping one finger on the back button, and one eye out for anything that might trigger the spoiler alarm. So - I might as well read them here, voluntarily, rather than find out by accident when I'm trying really hard to avoid them. It's just - it makes me nervous! What I don't know can't make me freak out? *g* (And even when I read them, I'll try to avoid any plot details from season 5! At least if we get the summer premier, because then the wait won't be so bad at all...)

No problem! I appreciate that you take the time to do such long, in-depth reviews, and I'm happy to pimp them!

I'm of the "I'd rather find out on my own terms than get spoiled by accident" school on the big spoilers. Because when it's an accident, there's frustration and unhappiness and sometimes even anger if someone spoiled me unthinkingly. If giving up a little of the surprise is the price of a happier and more harmonious time in fandom, then it's worth it!

I'm of two minds about Woolsey. Yes, he'll probably bring a more adversarial approach to his management of the city, but I'm just not that fond of the character. In little doses when I know he's going to disappear again at the end of the episode, he's fine. I'm not sure how I'll feel about seeing him every week. I guess we'll see how things go. As you said, the way they handled Sam was very well done, and, if possible, I came to love her even more by the end of the season.

Speaking of which, I really loved the little hug she and Rodney had in the flashback scene in The Last Man. You could really see that Rodney was absolutely over his crush, and that made me very happy. :-)

Oh, the hug, the hug was great! I did really love the comfortable working relationship that Sam and Rodney developed this season; I was cautiously optimistic about her presence on the show, and thought that it was very well done.

I've always liked Woolsey (and Robert Picardo), so that's part of my pleasure at the casting news, certainly. But I'm also really happy with what he'll potentially bring to the character mix, as someone who's very much an outsider to the Atlantis way of doing things.

*small voice* Woolsey?? Sheppard is going to hate this. (Can they make Sheppard full bird Colonel at least? I have a feeling that having to deal with Woolsey andEllis will put him over the edge).

I'm sorry to see Sam go, I have really grown to like her.

Honestly this is going to be great. Joe Flan has always wanted conflcit with upper MGM. He loved Carter but said he was so likeable that there was no drama so to speak. I think its going to make things interesting now.

Let's face it Rodney's come a long way from Sg-1, there is hope for Woosley.

I think he's contracted for only 14 eppys as well, so it'll be a good fit.

Joe Flan has always wanted conflict

Oh, he's going to have conflict all right. lol.

I hope the dynamic works. I love the free-spirited, relaxed atmosphere on Atlantis. I don't look forward to the IOA butting in and cramping Sheppard's leadership style (or lack thereof). But I've got faith in the writers, they did a great job on S4.

Joe Flan has always wanted conflcit with upper MGM. He loved Carter but said he was so likeable that there was no drama so to speak.

Exactly!! I love Sam and I liked that she and John had a mellower dynamic than John and Elizabeth, but I'm looking forward to seeing how things work on Atlantis with some serious conflict between the people at the top and those farther down the food chain.

I have a feeling that having to deal with Woolsey and Ellis will put him over the edge).

Heh! No kidding. Especially if they're still trying to find Teyla (although hopefully that storyline will be resolved quickly!)

I actually hope that they don't promote John again -- he hasn't been a LtC nearly long enough for it to be realistic, I don't think. (But one thing that did bug me slightly in the episode is that Lorne really should have been promoted to Colonel if he was going to be running Atlantis's military full time, shouldn't he? I noticed they were still calling him Major when Sam told Rodney that he was going to take over Atlantis while she was on the Phoenix.)

I like the idea of Woolsey too, very much. I'm quite excited about that aspect of S5. When it was first announced that Amanda was leaving to work on Sanctuary, there was a lot of discussion about the most likely replacement. A lot of people believed it would be Caldwell. I'm very glad it wasn't though.

And yes, as kristen999 says, JF did say that it was hard with Carter to come up with any kind of conflict because she was such a likeable character. They won't have that problem with Woolsey, and I'm looking forward to it. :)

I was quite unhappy about Carter coming over, but I do think she found her footing toward the end of the season. Nonetheless, I don't think she was the best choice for the position - Carter is a character that needs to be out in the field, in the action, not behind a desk. I have no idea how they're writing her out in S5, but I'd like to see her get her ship (from TLM). To me, she looked like she belonged there. :) Woolsey, on the other hand, is made to be a paper pusher. And it's going to make our team's life VERY interesting. :D

I'm happy about Carson too, and I hope they do work on some of those issues. I've been surprised at the backlash against Carson though since K2 aired. As much as people seemed to love him and want him back, I didn't expect that.

I haven't been keeping up with all of the commentary. What sort of backlash is going on?

I'm not sure how much it's been on LJ - I'm not connected enough here to know. But on GW, yeah, it's been quite a debate. I know there were a lot of people that were disappointed that he was a clone and not the real Carson - personally I can't see how they could ever brought the real Carson back after they blew him up. And there's people who don't like dead characters being brought back. And there's the Keller fans who I think feel threatened. And people who think the cast changes were the best idea ever and bringing someone back is going backwards, and..... You get the picture. Just a lot of different things. I've just been a little surprised I guess. If it was Elizabeth, yeah, I would expect that debate. But I thought everyone loved Carson. So it caught me off guard a little bit I guess.

I'm sad to hear that, but not surprised (fandom being what it is!). I think they did the best they could with what they had to work with. Well, okay, I think I would have preferred an AU Carson (so many possibilities!) but I'm certainly not unhappy with the way they chose to do it.

I think I probably would have been happy to have Carson back no matter how they chose to do it (I didn't realize how much I'd missed him until he showed up again), but I thought the way they did it was fine. And it'll be interesting exploring the ramifications of that next season. An AU Carson would have been cool too though - we've never gotten to keep an AU character before. :)

we've never gotten to keep an AU character before.

Precisely why I wanted one! :D But we've never gotten to keep a clone, either -- it's too bad they never did more with MiniJack on SG-1. So I hope they do address the psychological issues of his clone status, though I'm not holding out tremendous hope for it.

Eee, that's a great idea about Carter, I'd love to see her get the Phoenix and be a captain (and then she could visit both galaxies regularly!)

Interesting you say that about the Carson dynamic.

I couldn't help myself. I haven't seen any other episode in Season 4, but I just watched Kindred II. ~~(I will not watch Last Man, I will not watch Last Man...)~~ There was one scene where he was scrubbing to go into surgery, just like he'd never left, and Keller didn't even bat an eyelash. If nothing else, he's gotta be really rusty if he hasn't done surgery for 2 years. The doc in me was disturbed.

But damn if I wasn't cheering him on anyway. I suspect we're going to see a lot of this. People in Atlantis are probably so glad to have him back that they're going to overlook the weirdness most of the time. Then, every once in the while, something will happen that reminds everyone again that he's a clone. (Maybe something like them temporarily running out of whatever they're using to halt the Deadly Clone Disease^TM.)

Well, it's not that I don't want him to fit in, or that I don't want them to emotionally relate to him as Carson. I mean, the biggest problem that I had with the mid-season 2-parter is that the RepliTeam were thrown away awfully cheaply, and never seen as true human beings even though they were.

So the way that Rodney, in Kindred II, accepted and protected him as if he really was Carson worked beautifully for me. But there would be trust issues, and practical issues -- like the expedition having to figure out how to treat him legally, or the surgery thing you mentioned (which I hadn't noticed, knowing nothing of hospital procedure, but it makes perfect sense).

On the one hand, I feel that someone who thinks of themself as a person, who has all the memories of a person, deserves the full range of rights of a human being (which was why I was so frustrated with how the RepliTeam was handled). But I hope they don't ignore all the dramatic possibilities afforded by the fact that he's not quite the same Carson they had before.

The only spoiler that has been gnashing teeth is Woolsey, but not his new job. I think he'll be better than carter (Carter was, well, just too nice and sorta washed into the background). No, Woolsey shoudl be good, but gah, his uniform. It has GOT to go! It didn't look good on Carter and looks even less flattering on poor Woolsey.

I'm not actively seeking season 5 spoilers, and I've noticed that Mallozzi isn't dropping many spoilers lately. I think it's better that way. I avoided as much as I could on Last Man and enjoyed it more. Of course, Skiffy's ad gave away a LOT but they always do that...

Look at this way, it could be worse. The "command color" could be blue. Because if it were I would spend all my time waiting for him to say "please state the nature of the medical emergency."

*snort* Yeah, don't need that ;) But I'm thinking someone watched too many 60s/70s scifi flicks and have copied the uniforms...

*laughs* Oh, the uniform, yeah! I'm not very happy with the season 4 uniforms in general. I like the stripes of color on the gray, but I really hate the stiff material. It's horribly unflattering on some of them, especially Rodney, and it looks uncomfortable and difficult to move in. The old uniforms, in all their incarnations, looked like something people would actually wear; this looks a little too "generic sci-fi" for me.

Yeah, like it was ripped from "Styles of SciFi uniforms, catalog 02-A." ;) I'm just thrilled that Shep is in his black BDUs and Teyla and Ronon stay with 'native' outfits (for lack of a better word). The season 4 outfits just bug me, the stripes are okay on the front, but on the back and the arm is too much. And yeah, they do lookk stiff. Thank goodness the military stays in the old stuff or BDUs.

Concerning Carson - One thing that would be interesting dealing with things that changed after Carson1 was rescued form Michael's planet and his death...and how that would work. For example the "wee baby turtles" that Carson left on Earth in The Return that some of the fans seem to want to know about. Or showing how the almost two years of captivity have changed this Carson. Even if he wasn't a clone, this is not the Carson we knew and loved. We saw hints of that in the Kindred - how he wanted to kill Michael and did kill two of the hybrids. That is not something the Carson who was rescued would really consider. I don't think they are going to do that - but it would be interesting to see if they did.

Regrading Woolsey. I am looking forward to it. I have loved Picardo for years and he does a great job with this character. And it is not like they haven't taken a character who was widely viewed to be a a class one jerk and turning him into one of the more popular characters on the show before. (three guesses as to whom I am talking about and the first two don't count) And there is some stuff to be worked with. Woolsey knows he is far from perfect, and I think that for the most part he wants Atlantis to succeed. He just has different ideas as to what that means then the rest of the people there and a very different style. It is going to fun to watch the personalities clash. That to me is the best sort of conflict. Not just good versus evil, but when people of good conscience have different ideas as to how to fight that evil.

And I agree that some of the people did over react. Particularly with Sam. Yes, I am going to miss her - but this is a good thing for Amanda. And I understand people being upset that Carson won't be coming back full time, but I don't share it. (that is a rant for another day)

Concerning Carson - One thing that would be interesting dealing with things that changed after Carson1 was rescued form Michael's planet and his death...and how that would work. For example the "wee baby turtles" that Carson left on Earth in The Return that some of the fans seem to want to know about. Or showing how the almost two years of captivity have changed this Carson. Even if he wasn't a clone, this is not the Carson we knew and loved. We saw hints of that in the Kindred - how he wanted to kill Michael and did kill two of the hybrids. That is not something the Carson who was rescued would really consider.

YES! It's not that I don't want them to accept him, or relate to him emotionally as Carson. But there are things that are very different about his situation, and I don't want those to be swept under the rug (as I suspect they may be).

I'm really delighted that Woolsey's joining the cast. There is so much potential for really good interpersonal conflict, where there aren't any bad guys, just good people on both sides, equally motivated to do what's right, but with different strategies for achieving it. I really do think that Woolsey's a good guy, but he also believes in the rules he enforces, which automatically puts him at odds with most of the major players on Atlantis.

While not knowing the full story on Carson myself, Keller's still on the show, so I don't think he's going to just resume his old position...

Sam, I'm torn...I love her and I love her as Atlantis's head, but I felt she was a bit wasted this season; there were only a few times she got to stand out and shine. And while that's good in a lot of ways - I was a bit worried she might outshine Rodney! - I'm fond enough of her that I missed her brilliance when she was just being an administrator. (otoh, I think they finally have figured out the right balance of the commander's presence in the show; I often felt with Weir that they tried to push her into more significance in storylines, unsuccessfully). And yes, I hope so much that she goes back to her team (I didn't cry at "Last Man" but that broke my heart a bit, that she died in Pegasus without them!)

Woolsey I'm excited about! Very curious how antagonistic a relationship he's going to have, whether he'll be developed into a more sympathetic char or if he'll stay aligned against them (team vs the world! eee!) Either way I think I'm gonna like it. Hey, as long as they give me more team-stuffs (...okay, I'll be honest, more John&Rodney, too) I'm gonna be happy...

Running Atlantis was simply not a good fit for Sam's particular skill set -- or, maybe it would be more accurate to say that it didn't show off the areas where she really shines. She was good at it, but for her sake (yes, I know she's a fictional character; shut up. *g*) I want to see her somewhere that she can do everything she's good at, including saving the Earth/galaxy/universe on a regular basis. And I really want her back with her team!

Woolsey, on the other hand, is made for this sort of job. Well, not for running Atlantis, specifically; I'm not sure what kind of person would be, but Woolsey is definitely not it. However, unlike Sam, in Woolsey's case an administrative role on Atlantis will put him in his element and give him a chance to rise above his background and be genuinely cool every once in a while (assuming they go that way), or else to be a major thorn in the main characters' collective side. Either way, it'll be interesting and I'm very much looking forward to it!

Oh! And fingers crossed that he gets romance at some point during the season! Or turns out to have some sort of family back on Earth -- ex-wife or something. I would *love* to see his character expanded in that way! And there's another thing about Sam, really -- we already know her very well from SG-1, so there wasn't a whole lot of character exploration to do with her on SGA that wouldn't be unfairly taking screen time away from characters who hadn't already had that. But Woolsey's a blank slate; I think it's going to be a lot of fun to see them develop him.

Took the plunge, and having the spoilers coming from you was the best way it could've happened! ♥

Ooh, interesting changes!

xparrot mentioned cautious anticipation, and I will join in with that. I do adore Sam, and I will miss her, but like you, I've felt bad for her stuck on Atlantis all alone. She's done a brilliant job of being in charge, and balancing being these people's leader and their friend, but... like Elizabeth, she just can't get too close. She can't go on dangerous missions with them ("Reunion" notwithstanding), she can't be one of the team. And this is Sam, who was one of a team for ten years! It's got to be painful, that distance.

I strongly doubt they would kill her, but if they do, that would suck. So.

And Woolsey?! Heee! Thinking of my comment about how I never wanted to see the sight of him in charge of Atlantis again...! Well. That was mostly from a character POV - as a viewer, I am thrilled by the implications this brings! The possibilities and challenges and - most of all, having someone that won't back the team up in every situation they get into simply because they're on the same side. It's always been Atlantis vs the IOA - now the IOA is on Atlantis, and it's something that makes perfect in-universe sense, and could lead to fascinating situations! After four years of writing Atlantis the way they have, I have faith that the writers are up for the challenge of handling the kind of dynamic they'll be getting.

Carson coming back... oh, I'm so glad I didn't know when I watched Kindred!! It was so emotional to see him returned (dead and cloned), and then watching Rodney have to say goodbye again, thinking it could very well be permanent... it packed quite an emotional punch.

Ahhh. It feels good to have those spoilers out of the way - by the reactions I picked up by osmosis, I was sure it was going to be something worse than this! Teyla dying before they find her (again!) or Ronon getting offed or even "just" Zelenka and Lorne being sacrificed on the altar of Anyone Can Die, which would have broken my heart...!

I'd rather not know any specifics at all - the whens and wheres and hows I will happily find out through watching. But at least now I know who, and that feels good. ♥

Thinking of my comment about how I never wanted to see the sight of him in charge of Atlantis again...! Well. That was mostly from a character POV - as a viewer, I am thrilled by the implications this brings!

LOL, I did kind of grin when I read the spoiler and thought about your post! But I know exactly what you mean. From an in-universe perspective, it's "Woolsey! Aaaieee! Noooo!" But from a viewer standpoint, I'm really interested to see what kind of stories they come up with.

It feels good to have those spoilers out of the way - by the reactions I picked up by osmosis, I was sure it was going to be something worse than this!

Right, me too! I mean, I had all kinds of fears -- Teyla or Ronon or Zelenka dying, John or Rodney dropping down to recurring status (I was pretty sure neither of them actually DIED, though, because the fan outcry would be even more huge than with Carson). Like you, I don't want to know specifics, but they did a really good job at keeping the lid on the specifics with Elizabeth; that storyline was full of surprises even though we knew she was leaving the show for a year in advance! I hope the same will be true here.

I find the idea that Woolsey would be in charge very disturbing because it means we are going to go back to the whole 'well we could do the right thing AND save everyone except IOA/NID/CommanderofAtlantis is not letting us -- and oh let's watch people die because of this'. I mean, Woolsey has proven time and time again that he is incapable of learning from his mistakes. It would take something pretty dramatic happening to his character before I'll believe that he will let the SGA team do the right thing. In fact I expect him to set them back years in their relationship with the Pegasus galaxy.

With that in mind you can probably tell I'm not happy about that part.

I'm happy for Sam, of course, but at the same time, the year that she was in charge was the only time I felt Atlantis was in capable hands. Weir was a diplomat, sure, but Sam actually understood both the military and the science people that she was commanding. There's no substitude for that.

Overall, Sam was one of the things that made season 4 so shiny for me.

Wow, I'm so glad I didn't know about Carson coming back until now. Well, I hope like you that they'll deal with the emotional fall out, and not in just one episode. Their reactions to Carson are bound to be different than what he expects and he will not always know what they mean...it could make for great angst. :)

I guess we'll see. I really liked Sam on Atlantis, but on the other hand, I like the idea of having someone who is much more of a screw-up than Sam on her worst day -- it's incompetence and conflict that really brings out the drama!

I hope they pull out all the angst that they can with Carson! I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much about that storyline, but I *am* glad he'll be around, and without bumping Keller off the show, either (at least as far as I know).

Loved Carson clone, love Woolsey, think it will be great, can't read any more comments because I haven't seen The Last Man.
BTW I have got back to watching Star Trek recently and Dr woolsey, i mean the medical holograph is really funny, in a grumpy way. :)

*grin* I have seen so little Voyager (just about half a season, basically) that I actually didn't recognize Woolsey at first, beyond a vague "Hey, I know that actor from somewhere". And the doctor was my favorite character, even!

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Casting spoilers of DOOOOOOOOM! (or not. Ha.)

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