People are wrong on the Internet!

[sholio]

... okay. This is a White Collar-related rant I've been sitting on forever, and I'm not sure why I've suddenly hit the point when I can't contain it anymore, but ... RANT AHOY!

Considering how there was a significant subset of the fandom chanting for Peter's head after 5x01, I eagerly await all the hate heaped on Neal for stomping on Peter's heart in this episode, and all of the fic in which Neal grovels to earn Peter's forgiveness.

... crickets ...

... luckily I don't ACTUALLY want it, because I can't stand that kind of fic and having woobie!Peter and mean!Neal all over the place would be terrible.

But the thing that really pushes me around the bend is not so much that this kind of fic & "anyone who is mean to Character X is a big meanie!" reaction exists (it's around in every fandom) -- it's the huge, blatant double standard. People who hurt Neal's feelings are awful, but Neal can hurt anyone else and that's fine. And boy, is that on display this season. As well as the way that Peter's being treated, I've already seen one person putting forth the hypothesis that Museum Girl in this episode was actually trying to con Neal herself (what??), because perish the thought that Neal's actions should hurt someone who hasn't brought it on themselves ...

I don't want this to sound like it's hating on Neal, because I adore Neal! I think he's a great character, complex and interesting and sweet, and Matt Bomer plays him wonderfully. But he's flawed. And so are all of the other characters on the show, in their own ways. They can all hurt each other; they can all do stupid, insensitive things.

But the fandom reaction is wildly inconsistent depending on who's the hurter and the hurtee. Imagine a scenario in which Peter beats Neal up, blames Neal for everything that's gone wrong in his life lately, and tells Neal they're not friends anymore. I can't imagine this resulting in anything other than a tidal wave of Peter-hate sweeping through the fandom and the fic. Last season, I don't remember anyone even suggesting that Neal ought to apologize, let alone a million fics in which Neal has to grovel to earn Peter's forgiveness. Actually, in canon, Peter is the one who apologizes and has to earn Neal's forgiveness. (I'm not saying I had a problem with how that played out in canon, necessarily -- but if you think about the roles being flipped? AHAHAHA. The Peter hate would have been EPIC. The Neal hate was ... completely absent.)

Fandom is STILL not over Elizabeth hurting Neal's feelings in the interests of trying to save her husband's life in 4x12. The grovel!fic punishing Peter for calling Neal a criminal in 5x01 is still coming (even though Neal broke the law repeatedly in that very episode, thus proving that Peter's description of him, while uncharitable, is accurate). Kate is thoroughly demonized in the fandom for even the merest hint that Neal's welfare might not have been her sole motivating factor. When Sara broke up with Neal because of the U-boat treasure, the fandom near-unanimously blamed Sara for it -- the argument I remember being made at the time is that she knew he was a con artist when she started dating him, so she shouldn't have had a problem with evidence of his cons being presented to her. (And yet, it's bad when Peter calls him a criminal, somehow, even though Sara should have known from the beginning that he was one and treated him as such?)

This fandom has a pretty bad case of "fan-favorite character can do no wrong" syndrome. It's not the worst I've ever seen; I think that honor has to go to Highlander and Methos. (When you've got a conflict between a rapist/murderer and the woman he raped, and fandom unanimously sides with the rapist, you know you've got a problem.) But it's frustrating. Highlander's Methos-centricism eventually drove me away from the character and the fandom -- I really liked Methos until having a little too much contact with a fandom that loved him to the point that he literally could do no wrong, and every conflict between him and any other character not only had to be settled in Methos's favor, but the other person had to be portrayed as malicious and awful for disagreeing with him. I don't want that to happen with Neal!

And I certainly don't think Peter's right in every conflict between him and Neal, either. Actually, one of the more interesting things about the show, I think, is that they're both wrong a lot of the time, and Peter is very specifically often wrong about Neal .... which is one of the main reasons I was on board with the "criminal" comment in 5x01 -- even though I felt absolutely terrible for both of them in that scene; POOR DARLINGS! -- because I think it's a positive thing for Peter to start recognizing that what he wants for Neal isn't necessarily what Neal wants for himself. I ought to sort my various comments to veleda_k into some sort of coherent meta post, because I think that during the course of the series Peter has often tended to treat Neal's lawbreaking either as something he does because he doesn't know any better (and has to be taught), or because there's something broken in him (that needs to be fixed). Basically Peter has tended to deal with Neal as a fix-up project, and I think that Peter finally throwing in the towel on trying to "fix" Neal is a good thing -- a positive step towards accepting Neal as an equal rather than a subordinate. (Or maybe that's not where the show is going at all; who knows.)

Anyway, I don't feel anger at Neal for rejecting Peter's friendly overtures in 5x03 and kicking him out of the stakeout car, or think that fandom ought to hate on him for it; he had valid reasons, emotional and practical. I just wish that a similar benefit of the doubt would be extended to scenes in which characters upset or reject Neal. If Neal's actions in the car in 5x03 are taken in isolation, without considering the context and the past few episodes, then yes, he looks like an enormous jerk. But it doesn't make any sense to view it that way, because obviously he's acting like he is because of certain specific things that are going on with him right now. And it doesn't make any more sense to assume that Peter's just randomly decided to hate on Neal in 5x01 -- of course he hasn't; there's a buildup to that scene going back through the entire episode and through the past seasons. Similarly for Elizabeth in 4x12: sure, if she'd just told Neal to go lie to Peter for no reason, that'd be a pretty bitchy thing to do, but she has reasons, very good ones. She's trying to keep her husband from being killed! And yes, it was a snap decision made under emotional pressure that turned out not to be a good one -- but it's not like Neal has never made bad decisions in canon, right?

Again, I wonder how that last one would have played out in fandom if it had been Neal's welfare at stake: if Neal had gotten badly hurt helping Peter on a case, and Mozzie or June or even Elizabeth talked Peter into lying to Neal to get him off the case and protect him. I don't really think that person would still be getting demonized a season later ...

(This is probably very petty and bitter of me, but I remember thinking at the time that it's a pretty standard fic trope for El to take Neal's side in any conflict between Neal and Peter. Elizabeth protecting Neal against Peter's temper, chewing Peter out for not being considerate enough of Neal, encouraging Peter to risk himself to help Neal, etc. is a pretty common thing in fic. No wonder fandom was so unpleasantly shocked when El acted to protect her husband, because fanfic!El tends to be a lot more protective of Neal than of Peter .... okay, petty, bitter fan-mode OFF.)

Anyway, it's not that I want a sudden flurry of wicked!Neal in fanfic. I guess that I just get frustrated with the lack of balance and with fandom's tendency to hold all the other characters to a higher standard than Neal. (Except Mozzie for some reason. People do tend to downplay Mozzie's importance to Neal in fic, but he doesn't seem to get hated on. Which is good. No hate for Mozzie!) Neal's mistakes are easily forgiven by fandom, but no one else in canon is even allowed to make mistakes, at least not without being disliked and punished for it...

And jeez, on an individual fannish level, I don't think there's anything wrong with anyone being angry at the characters for any of the above actions mentioned. We're all going to have strong emotional reactions to canon; it's what being a fan is all about. I just wish the trends weren't so heavily weighed in one direction, that's all.

Comments

[recessional]

Anyway, it's not that I want a sudden flurry of wicked!Neal in fanfic. I guess that I just get frustrated with the lack of balance and with fandom's tendency to hold all the other characters to a higher standard than Neal.

I am not in WC fandom, but homg I have so much sympathy for that issue In General. *shares tea*

[sholio]

Thank you! <3 *accepts tea*

I think it's a problem a lot of fandoms have; I've run across it in greater or lesser degrees in just about every fandom I've been in.

[recessional]

Yeah. Which is always a bit odd to me, because, like - I don't have to stop loving a character just because he's a dickhead! I watched four seasons of NCIS:LA because I love G Callen to pieces . .. and still cackled every time someone turned around and gave him a smack that he deserved, because man that man can be an asshole.

But then one of my favourite parts of Elementary is that people get to snark Sherlock and even Joan when she deserves it, so maybe I'm weird.

[frith_in_thorns]

That is the BEST part of Elementary! I love that show.

[sholio]

No no, like you pointed out just recently, those smackdowns are what makes characters like that bearable! And I think that's one of the things that gets to me so much in this case, because Neal does a lot of sketchy things in canon, and if the other characters never called him on it, I think I'd eventually find him insufferable. It's the fact that he does get called out occasionally or lose important relationships because of his actions that keeps him from eventually coming across as a manipulative jerk.

[recessional]

Yesss. Ah well. At least canon isn't letting you down there!

(Also, have I ever mentioned your default icon is beautiful? Because it really is.)

[sholio]

Awww, thank you! :) I can't remember what artist this is -- her name is in my icon notes but I'm blanking on it at the moment -- but I snagged a bunch of icons made from her art awhile back, because it's gorgeous and unusual, and the icon-maker allows their icons to be modified, so I could add my username to it. :)

[veleda_k]

Ahhhhhhh! I hate this! Um, not your rant. What you're ranting about. I agree with absolutely everything. It drives me nuts, to see fic after fic in which Peter has realize how wrong he is about, uh, everything.

I was actually thinking of making a post about how wrongly I think people have judged Peter and Elizabeth's actions and motivations this season. The poor Burkes can do no right.

Fandom's reaction to Elizabeth is actually fascinating to me, in an intellectual, analytical sense. Fandom adored her as long as they imagined that she was always going to be in Neal's corner no matter what, but as soon as it was revealed that, actually, Neal's happiness is not her raison d'être, fandom turned on her, and now her every word is being judged as harshly as possible.

I actually love your entire paragraph there, because you know how I feel about Kate and Sara. It's gobsmacking, because in terms of blame, I'd say Neal wins for both women. It's telling that Kate is seen as callous and uncaring at best and evil at worst, when the only actual conflict we see is Neal mistreating her. (Not to mention all that lying while he was working for Adler.) But hey, if she weren't such a terrible girlfriend, Neal wouldn't have had to manipulate her! Or something.

And Sara. Oh, Sara. It's astounding, the disconnect between how fandom sees Sara and who she actually is. People go on and on about how mean she is to Neal. I can't think of a single fight they have where he isn't giving as good as he gets. And he keeps hurting her! And she keeps letting him back in! She's so forgiving, and fandom just writes her off as a bitch.

Really, Peter and Sara are loyal to Neal to the point of stupidity. Peter wound up in jail because he helped Neal, and Sara very well could have. (I'm not sure people realize how serious it is when Kramer threatens her with obstruction of justice in 3x16. Obstruction of justice carries jail time. And even if she stayed out of jail, her beloved career would have been tatters. What a bitch, am I right?) And Sara and Peter are adults who made their own decisions, and they are clearly okay with those decisions. I don't think Neal needs to grovel in gratitude. But could fandom at least acknowledge their devotion?

And it's weird, because Neal doesn't see himself as some sort of constant victim. When it comes to the people he knows, Neal is fairly good at taking responsibility. He admits that he let Kate down ("What Kate got was a guy locked away for half a decade"), he says it's his fault Peter's in jail in 5x01 (and of course Peter assures him otherwise, because Peter's that kind of person), and he tells Sara she has a right to feel angry at him in 4x04 (while fandom was baying for her blood for daring to have feelings and to be affected by Neal's actions). Neal has wronged the people he loves multiple times, but he also cares about them and acknowledges their feelings as important.

One can be a Neal fan without declaring he can do no wrong, and yet you wouldn't know it from fandom at large. It's embarrassing, honestly. I don't understand this helpless, flawless woobie that fandom is so enamored of. He's not very interesting.

(Also, if you're petty and bitter then so am I, because I was totally thinking of that particular brand of fic.)

[magibrain]

Urk. One of these days, I feel like I ought to write out my rant on why exactly Neal/Kate and Neal/Sara don't work for me, which I think you hit on in this comment. (I mean, to be honest, 80% of it is because I don't find romantic narratives in general to be particularly engaging, but it's that other 20% which is a comment on the show.) I think that part of it is because while parts of fandom may think that Neal can do no wrong in a moral sense, canon seems to reinforce it with Neal doing no wrong in a technical/achievement sense; that things will fall in Neal's favor is pretty much a foregone conclusion, and that's especially true in his interpersonal life.

(Canon didn't find it interesting to explore why Kate fell for Neal, why she fell for him to the extent that she was willing to leave the person she would otherwise have moved across the country for, why she was willing to devotedly visit him for four years in prison after he explicitly disregarded her wishes and stalked her for a long time. And others have done a wonderful job of humanizing Kate and giving her complex motivations and desires and opinions, but canon quite clearly treats her as Girlfriend-Shaped Plot Device, and I hate that. My major problem with Neal and Kate wasn't that I didn't know why Kate was good enough for Neal, it was that I was never shown how Neal became that important to Kate. Which is just part of this annoying larger anrrative that Neal Charms All The Girls Effortlessly, unless they're evil, or they fall for Peter or Mozzie for comedic effect. >_<) (...and with Sara, I still have some lingering squick issues over the fact that Neal only approached her in the first place because he wanted to use her for something, and when consequences could have resulted from that... the consequences get dropped. And, yeah, it was Sara's choice to drop them so they could get on with saving the kid, and saving the kid was definitely a Good Thing, but at the same time... that's Sara seeing someone screw with her with impunity, because the plot took a kid hostage to ensure that Neal escaped. And, yeah, I can see a relationship growing from that regardless of the screwiness there. Sara can tend to the combative, and took a job with a lot of challenge, and doesn't need things to be soft and solicitous, and can play in Neal's arena pretty much as well as he can. But canon's refusal to acknowledge that, their quick "Oh, look at something else now!" attitude, rubs me the wrong way. And by Season 3, where Sara, who's been hounding Neal for the Raphael this whole time even while she's dating him (and who eventually helps him out of that, but in such a way that things are set right, not just right for Neal), looks at a gigantic trove of ill-gotten goods and decides to just quietly do nothing, even as she knows he's probably planning to take them and disappear without a word... that, to me, didn't feel like loyalty. It felt more like her personality had been subsumed into the Team Neal hivemind.)

But yeah. I don't have a lot of experience with the subsets of fandom discussed in the OP – my engagement in fandom is fairly limited, because I like hermiting in my own corner – but I feel like, though canon does better, it still has some issues with distorting things so that Neal comes out on top. Which is immensely annoying, because when you're fated to win you don't have agency; when conflicts are removed around you, you don't have complexity. When relationships are written as authorial fiat, they're not multilayered and complex and revelatory; they tend toward archetype.

And Neal is a fantastic character. He's well-constructed and multifaceted on thematic and narrative levels. And I cannot grok why protecting him from all of that is a good thing.

</...or maybe that was the rant>

[veleda_k]

I feel like part of the reason Neal's actions don't come back to bite him is simple practicality. The logical consequence for most of Neal's actions is prison, but the show isn't going to end early with Neal in prison, which is why he never gets caught, and Sara drops the charges, and etcetera.

Re Sara, well, I ship Neal/Sara like burning, so I have a bias. But I think Sara not telling anyone about the U-boat treasure wasn't out of character. Sara has a different perspective than Peter and the FBI characters. They're law enforcement, she's in business. Sara's job isn't to set things right, it's to get Sterling Bosch insured property back to Sterling Bosch clients. That's not to say that Sara is amoral, she clearly isn't. But I can believe Sara choosing someone she cares about over returning stolen goods, even if she knows she should do otherwise. She's clearly willing to color outside the lines, after all.

The stalking thing does make me uncomfortable, but it's one of those things that I think is the writers not the characters. Because Neal's not the only stalker. Elizabeth thinks the fact that Peter put her under surveillance was cute, but if it were me, I'd... well, no, I wouldn't call the police, since I'd assume that the police would do little good when my stalker was FBI. And maybe it's just that Peter and Neal happen to be creepy stalkers, but I'd like to think their behavior otherwise indicates that's not true.

But, as I said, I have my own biases, and I can own them.

[magibrain]

Heh; I've got my own heaping pile of biases, too, which make me habitually cynical about romance. I can admit it. *g* And I agree that a lot of the consequence-avoidance comes down to narrative pragmatism, which I think may be ultimately self-defeating. After all, if there are no consequences, there are no stakes.

...though Neal's actions don't always completely buck consequences. Sometimes they just buck them hard enough that they land on the Burkes' house! (There was a perk or trait or something in one version of GURPS called Jinx – and I may be getting the terminology and the specifics wrong, here, because I only rarely actually played in GURPS games, but I remember the basic gist – and the idea was that if you gave the Jinx trait to a character, that character would get a stat bonus or additional points to spend or something to that effect, but everyone around them would suffer a luck penalty. I'm completely convinced that Neal has Jinx on his character sheet.)

So I'm really happy to see S5 forcing Neal to face the fact that his actions do often cause collateral damage, even when he doesn't mean them to. Because I think if he has to grapple with them, maybe even factor them into his decisions, it does bring back some of the stakes which are undermined when he dodges consequences entirely.

[The stalking thing does make me uncomfortable, but it's one of those things that I think is the writers not the characters.]

They are awfully fond of the trope. (Mozzie also breaks out some heavy-duty stalking in By The Book, and both Neal and Peter call him on it. Which is pretty rich, considering they're, like, the reigning champions of stalking amongst the White Collar cast.) And I wish they wouldn't be; they do such a lovely job averting unexamined romantic clichés in a lot of areas, and then occasionally they just... walk face-first into them. And I just kinda want to take them aside and go "Guys, you're better than this."

[sholio]

I have to admit I thought of you when Rebecca lost her job in 5x03. :D One thing I've been wanting to see for seasons now is the show acknowledging that Neal's cons are not completely victimless, and I was delighted and impressed that this episode followed through on that. The thing is, I completely acknowledge the validity of his reasons for doing it -- I think Neal's motives are pretty sympathetic this season, honestly -- but it wouldn't be a difficult decision if there was no downside, and I'm really happy that the show is actually dealing with the downside, at least a little bit. I agree about the stakes being much higher and the whole thing more narratively satisfying when that's the case.

[magibrain]

Yes! I pretty much crowed in my seat when that happened. Not even so much that consequences were apparent but that consequences were apparent to Neal; he had to look them in the eye, as it were. And this isn't really a situation where he can make grand gestures, either effective or symbolic, to fix things, because he can't risk drawing a lot of extra attention to his involvement there.

I'm kinda of two minds about how it came about; I mean, having Hagen pulling the strings is a nice way to introduce a tension and keep up the usual rhythm of Neal and Peter (and Seigel, while he was around) not being on the same page without having Neal suddenly not trust Peter any more for some reason, and it does make for a terrifically tangled-up set of sympathetic actions... but I also kinda wish the consequences weren't just apparent when Neal is being forced to do things against his will. On the other hand, consequences! And it's entirely possible they'll use this as a way to explore that even the cons Neal does decide to do of his own accord have consequences, and that would be wonderful and make me very happy.

I suppose only time and further episodes will tell.

[sholio]

Fandom adored her as long as they imagined that she was always going to be in Neal's corner no matter what, but as soon as it was revealed that, actually, Neal's happiness is not her raison d'être, fandom turned on her, and now her every word is being judged as harshly as possible.

Yes! This is exactly my take on it, and I think it's interesting to see that it's even spilling back into how people write her now in fic set in earlier seasons. Where the overwhelming bulk of Elizabeth's fanon characterization used to be "Elizabeth is helpful and kind", now I'm seeing a lot more of "Elizabeth is cold and calculating and doesn't like Neal", even in fic set in earlier seasons. (This is on my mind because of an offhand reference in a fic I read this morning to Elizabeth being cold to Neal when he got back from Cape Verde. I really don't think people would've thought to write her that way prior to 4x12 and fandom's reaction to that; there's certainly nothing in canon to indicate she acts any differently towards him afterwards!)

Like I've said before, I think it's very telling that fandom adored Elizabeth as long as she never did anything but be helpful, kind, and supportive of everything Peter and Neal did. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Elizabeth was flat in earlier seasons, and I really love that the show has never had her be jealous of Neal or unsupportive of Peter's career. But as soon as she started to show other, entirely human qualities -- to get angry, to be hurt, to have to make the same hard choices the other characters do, and most unforgivable of all, not to support Neal 100% in everything -- fandom went after her with pitchforks and torches.

(Which doesn't mean I think it's wrong and bad for individual fans to react badly to individual choices of Elizabeth's. It's just interesting to watch the whole fandom switch sides on her like they've done, when most of the male characters have done things that are arguably worse without having that much of an impact ...)

Peter wound up in jail because he helped Neal, and Sara very well could have. (I'm not sure people realize how serious it is when Kramer threatens her with obstruction of justice in 3x16. Obstruction of justice carries jail time. And even if she stayed out of jail, her beloved career would have been tatters. What a bitch, am I right?) And Sara and Peter are adults who made their own decisions, and they are clearly okay with those decisions. I don't think Neal needs to grovel in gratitude. But could fandom at least acknowledge their devotion?

Right! And yeah, it's entirely true that it was their decisions to make. And I think generally the show has been good with that balance. Neal is grateful to Peter, Sara, et al for helping him and feels guilty for the times they've gotten in trouble because of him, but it is by no means all on him; they're responsible for their own actions as well. (I agree 100% with what you pointed out in your reaction post, that the fallout in 5x03 is a bit different from what we've seen before because people like Peter and Sara consciously made the decision to help Neal and to be in Neal's life, and what happened to them because of that is at least partly on their heads, whereas Rebecca and Siegel were innocent bystanders.)

But no one ever gets credit for it. Peter, Sara, et al can be helpful and supportive and make sacrifices for Neal in 5 episodes out of 6, but fandom will castigate them forever for that 6th episode.

And we already talked about canon!Neal being better at taking responsibility than fanon!Neal. He's not perfect, but he generally recognizes where he's screwed up and take steps to fix it, sometimes to the point of making huge sacrifices. It's also interesting to look at how that's developed over the years. It's not a matter of change in quality so much as degree -- he's always loved very deeply and wanted to make the people around him happy, including being willing to admit his failures, but I think he's been maturing slowly over the course of the series, and he's more willing to make genuine sacrifices now as opposed to grand gestures that don't really cost him anything (e.g. sending Elizabeth flowers and bribing her way into the museum as an apology in 1x14, contrasted with entering into the agreement with Hagen and not even intending anyone to know about it in 5x01). And I don't think contemporary Neal would just walk away from some of the situations that past Neal walked away from (like seeing Keller kill someone) without trying to do anything about it. Some in fandom might be inclined to credit Peter's influence but I really don't think that has much to do with it; it's more just that his experiences over the past few years have matured him a lot compared to where he was when we first met him.

[veleda_k]

Which doesn't mean I think it's wrong and bad for individual fans to react badly to individual choices of Elizabeth's.

Yeah, I agree. What makes it interesting for me is, first, as you mentioned, how fandom as a whole turned on her so uniformly and so quickly, and secondly, how she's still not free of it. There was a lot of anti-Mozzie sentiment after the S3 mid-season finale, and I remember fics where Neal cut Mozzie out of life FOREVER. (Which is something that the characters are frequently doing in fanfic, and yet never in the actual show.) However, by the time season four rolled around, you would have never known Mozzie wasn't in the fandom's good books.

Maybe Elizabeth just needs a few more episodes before people can let this go, I don't know. I'll confess, another reason I find it interesting is that while 4x12 was surprising to me, I considered it perfectly in character for Elizabeth, and well supported by past canon. While she cares about him and likes him, Elizabeth has never really viewed Neal's issues as her responsibility, and she's long encouraged Peter to be less invested in Neal's choices. The comment in early season three she made, when Peter was wondering What Is Neal Up To, about, "Maybe you've been chasing him so long you don't know how to stop," or in, I think it was 3x09, when she remarks that whatever mess Neal is in, it's his mess to clean up, not Peter's. Stuff like that is why I don't view her comment in 5x01 about Peter getting over-invested as anything that's changed.

And if we want to talk about Elizabeth making demands of Neal, then I think she asked even more of him in 1x09 than in 4x12. She demands that Neal rob the judge to save Peter, and when Neal protest that he could go to prison for that, she bulldozes over his objection. (The biggest difference there is that Neal of seasons four and five would say yes immediately.) And maybe people didn't react so strongly to that because it was early in the show, but I suspect that it's because in "Bad Judgement" Elizabeth was seen as supporting the bromance(TM) by encouraging Neal to help Peter. (Not that I think Elizabeth did anything wrong in 1x09, mind you.)

And I totally agree about Neal maturing. This may be completely in my head, but I think the way Bomer plays him has noticeably changed since season one. Neal still has plenty of playful, childlike moments, but I really think he's more subdued physically now. He just sort of acts older. Or at least, that's how I read it.