sholio: sun on winter trees (SPN-dean gun)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2007-11-17 02:06 pm
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Supernatural Season 3: Is this just me, or ...?

I haven't really posted much about Supernatural lately. Overall, I'm enjoying this season, and "Bad Day at Black Rock" was one of my favorite episodes to date; I loved getting an episode that was, for the most part, just fun for the sake of being fun, very much a throwback to the aspects of the show that made me fall for it back in Season 1.

However, I'm starting to have a problem with SPN that is threatening to overcome my enjoyment of the show. I'm not in SPN fandom, and I poked around idly on LJ trying to figure out if this is just me or if other people are having this problem too. Basically, all I'm seeing is squee for last night's episode, so maybe it is just me, which is a discomfort-inducing thought all by itself. And I did have squee for the episode, really I did; it's just that I also had ... issues.

*takes stick, pokes beehive*

Okay, here's my problem. The way that SPN deals with race is starting to make me squirm.

I'm generally pretty "easy" when it comes to genre TV. I mean, I'm not unaware of the ongoing problems with the way that these sorts of shows typically handle race and gender; it's just that I can tune in and out of the part of my brain that notices this stuff, and go ahead and enjoy it anyway. Not that it doesn't enhance my enjoyment when shows do it right, or at least try -- and I honestly think quite a lot of the shows I've been watching lately are at least making a good-faith stab at it. (Not that some of the criticisms aren't justified, but still.) SPN seemed to be doing so, too, in the beginning.

But lately ... like I said, it's making me squirm. It's not just one thing, it's a whole lot of little things. It first started bothering me at the end of last season when Jake (that was his name, right? stupid swiss-cheese brain) turned out to be the one to go psycho, and the way that the show lovingly dwelt on his psycho-ness, with lingering closeups on every little detail of him stalking and killing Sam, then the Winchesters basically having to put him down. It did make me uncomfortable and I wished they'd gone a different route with the allocating of the powers and roles between the YED's chosen children. But it was really just one, well, two episodes, and Jake was a fairly complex character, and we saw the YED seducing him over to the dark side, using his family against him -- at the end of the arc, I was a little uncomfortable but reasonably okay with how it had been handled.

But then, coming rapidly on the heels of that, we had Isaac's particularly horrible death in the season premiere, and then Gordon's storyline which basically played out the whole thing with Jake again -- psycho stalker trying to kill Sam, with lavish camera closeups, eventually dying in a particularly gruesome and graphic way (and horrifically lynching-reminiscent, to boot). What made "Fresh Blood" extra-creepy to me was the boys walking away bantering in their blood-splattered clothes when Sam just tore off someone's head with his bare hands. I couldn't really get into the brother moment at the end because I was too busy being deeply, deeply skeeved out.

The thing is, it does make sense in terms of Gordon's characterization that he'd act the way he did. He sees vampires as unredeemable monsters, so when he becomes the beast, he acts like the beast -- and that's a logical outcome. But it's the show, its writers, that set him up that way and put him in that position, that took a character who could have been fascinating and complex and sympathetic (and in fact, used to be) and made him a one-note psychopath. It's the show that converted him, the show that stuck him in a roomful of tied-up, blond white women and then had him dismember them, the show that let his psycho-ness play out in an almost pornographic way.

And, honestly, it's also true that the lifestyle the Winchester brothers lead is a bloody and violent one. Dean, at the start of "Fresh Blood", hacking up a woman with a machete while she pleads for mercy, or Sam ripping off someone's head -- in their brutal world outside the law, where everything is trying to kill them, these aren't entirely unjustified actions. But they're the actions of anti-heroes, not heroes -- and I don't feel at all comfortable going from scenes like that, to scenes of humor and pathos where we're supposed to be 100% on the Winchesters' side. I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that the show is encouraging me to cheer on Sam as he strangles someone to death, especially when the casting in that scene is uncomfortably reminiscent of some of the more horrible historical baggage that we're carrying around in this country.

And I want to believe that I shouldn't be paying attention to this stuff, that it really shouldn't matter that Jake and Isaac and Gordon are all non-white -- I mean, certainly the show ought to have non-white villains and victims too, and most of the guest stars end up being one or the other. But it's just ... the way it's done, the roles they get, the fact that, as far as I can remember, Jake and Isaac and Gordon are the only non-white guest stars (aside from Tamara, obviously) that we've had lately, and two of the three have been super-strong, bloodthirsty psychopaths, while the third had one of the most appalling death scenes in a more violent-than-usual season. I just want balance. I don't want the show to stop casting characters of color; I want them to cast more of them, and bring Tamara into the recurring stable of guest stars and bring back Hendrickson (who makes a really fun antagonist because he's got a lot of "right" on his side, too) and just generally give us more to work with, not less, so that every time we see a person on the show who isn't white they don't turn out to be a psycho.

I certainly don't think the writers are playing it the way they are on purpose. However, at best, I feel like they're completely ignoring all of this unpleasant historical baggage that we're stuck with -- the problem is, we are stuck with it, and it has to be taken into account, and trying to ignore it and go on with the show as a happy-go-lucky road trip story is ... discomfort-inducing, to say the least. I suppose I'm throwing this out there to see what other people think, if I'm over-thinking this and making a mountain out of a molehill, or if other people are having similar problems to mine.

[identity profile] sol-se.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:01 am (UTC)(link)
You're not alone in your uncomfortableness, believe me. It makes me cringe in the same way. I've seen all of these issues you've brought up being discussed, although not on general SPN forums. Supernatural seems to have the same kind of skeevy race & gender issues that Heroes does. And this is coming from someone who loves both those shows. I don't know.
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
If it helps, I'm not in SPN fandom but I *have* come across several discussions in the past dealing with how bad SPN is on the race/gender issue, particularly on the race issues you bring up. And, yes, it is making me flinch.

Personally, I'm even more disturbed with how SPN treats women than I am with how it treats race, but I very much agree with everything you've said here.

I watched "Fresh Blood" with a friend who is very, very much into the fandom (well, more very into fanning SPN, since she's in a little non-Wincest corner of the fandom itself) and she was really, really into it for the Sam and Dean parts and I was getting skeeved by not how much we were glossing over the drugging/killing of all these Hollywood-beautiful blonde girls (and how much it didn't phase the boys) and Gordon going...well, over the top (even if it did fit his character).

So, yeah, it is hard sometimes to enjoy while ignoring the rest. But you aren't alone.

[identity profile] parisindy.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:09 am (UTC)(link)
((hugs)) i am personally loving, the boys were raised as warriors.. so their point of view is going to be different then the general public

i am sorry you are having a problem with it though
((hugs))

[identity profile] roga.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:33 am (UTC)(link)
I haven't given much thought to the role of race in SPN, but I did think a bit about religion (more to the point, Judaism). In the end, the format of SPN allows for the following types of characters: 1. The murdered victim. 2. The possessed and eventually regrettably killed victim. 3. The rescued victim. 4. the other hunter.

Given that Sam and Dean will always be in a position of power, whoever you put up opposite them, in any of these roles and especially 1-3, will have a somewhat iffy portrayal. Jews, for instance, have up to now played the roles of 1-3, unless Bobby is Jewish, in which case he's the kind that uses crosses as wards. (Thinking about this actually led me to thinking that in the SPN verse, anyone who discovers the world of demons will have a hell of a time keeping their faith if they aren't Christian, given that crosses and holy water and Cristo all actually work, and I'm fine with that.)

Anyway, back to what you were talking about - I do understand what you mean about being disturbed, especially in this episode. I do remember some sympathetic black characters - Dean's first love Cassie, and Missouri from S1, for example - and I hope they do better in the future.
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[identity profile] nonniemous.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:36 am (UTC)(link)
*shrugs*

It's there, though Isaac bothered me--more than Gordon, far more. And the women. Shoot, I'd far rather have more of Tamara than Ruby or Bela. But Ronon and Teyla have always been second-class and soemtimes third class citizens on SGA. Why are all the smart, educated heroes white on that show? Why does "alien" equal "dark-skinned, exotic"? Dr. Who's treatment of Martha is incredibly problematic when you step back and look at it through this kind of lens. It's a problem with TV in general, with each show having their own particular skewing of the issue. Like the whole "women can't be normal they have to be skinny blonde goddesses" thing.

Then again, this could just be my brain on drugs. :-9

[identity profile] rogue-pudding.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:37 am (UTC)(link)
I don't mind the tack taken on the violence so much because I'm fairly certain that this is a deliberate storytelling decision. We're supposed to be seeing the boys as having been damaged by the things they've seen and done. That they still maintain enough of themselves to continue to interact with each other emotionally is probably the only thing stopping Dean, Sam, or both of them from developing PTSD.

The racial subtext is more troubling, particularly because I have no idea how much of this is deliberate and how much is accidental. The fact that all three recurring african-american male characters are antagonists is unfortunate; though individually I don't have a problem with any single character choice. Henriksen makes an excellent authority figure type villain for the boys, but when he appears alongside Gordon and Jake the resulting image is...unfortunate. On one level I understand that the pool of good recurring characters is extremely small; so far we're looking at Bobby, Ellen and Jo. Everyone else is either antagonistic, morally ambiguous, or come and gone in the course of an episode. Now maybe that extreme sense of isolation is also part of some story arc, but if they are going to have at least a few recurring characters around a little balance would not hurt.

My humble opinions, as always.

[identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:38 am (UTC)(link)
To be honest, it never occurred to me. I think most shows are pretty bad about casting gender and race most of the time. However, SPN is an odd exception, the 'cast' for the most part are the two leads. They have to rely on a lot of guest casting and with a show like SPN most 'guests' are going to be evil bad guys.

There's not a lot of room for anyone else and the few extra roles they went against the grain and cast females. Ruby the demon, and the annoying thief. At least the addition of these two women are not as just stereotypical females for the boys to have a romance with. It is still about sexual tension and while I found Joe boring, at least the latest casting has given us some pretty 'gray' extra characters.

Which leaves, bad guys, demons and psychos. I don't think the writers /producers purposely sough out non-whits to put in the role as bad guys...I just think its an IS.

If all the bad guys were all white, then would we argue then that they don't cast enough non-whites?

Maybe if Bobby was black or Hispanic that might have helped but he's not.

Maybe its just a chance over reaction? The thing is you feel this way so it doesn't mater what others think. I will watch the show with a more open-eye though after you pointed this out. It's an interesting topic.

K

[identity profile] rogue-pudding.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:47 am (UTC)(link)
Ack, posted too soon.

I just wanted to add that the quick shifts from violence to normal interaction can be read a number of ways. It could be just the standard TV trope where people go through horrific degrees of violence with nary a flinch, or it could be read as part of how Sam and Dean cope with seeing things that should be sending to see a psychiatrist. I'm leaning towards the later.
ext_1981: (Catch-22)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 12:51 am (UTC)(link)
It's really nice to know it's not just me; since I don't really do more than dabble in SPN fandom, I have no clue about the state of things over there.

I just went over and read your post on the episode, and my thoughts when Gordon was "turned" were similar to yours -- I was hoping (and, to some extent, expecting) that we'd get a lot more moral ambiguity and story possibilities out of it than we did.
ext_1981: (Catch-22)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:05 am (UTC)(link)
I sort of go back and forth on the gender issue in SPN (much like the race thing on SGA) ... I can see why people have a problem with it, but it doesn't usually interfere with my enjoyment of the show. (Although "Fresh Blood" was an exception to that, too -- a slam-dunk on all scales of offense!)

It frustrates me, because I really want to enjoy the show without obsessing on this stuff, but it's just so in-your-face at times -- I can't not notice it.

It's nice to know it's not just me.
ratcreature: RatCreature as Sam and Dean. (sam and dean)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2007-11-18 01:05 am (UTC)(link)
You're not alone, there's actually a fair amount of meta dealing with the topics of race and gender in SPN, for example in [livejournal.com profile] coffeeandink's LJ, but a lot of other people too.

[identity profile] sol-se.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:06 am (UTC)(link)
I really, really loved that actor. I'm sad he won't be a recurring character.
ext_1981: (Doppelganger dead)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:26 am (UTC)(link)
In the end, the format of SPN allows for the following types of characters: 1. The murdered victim. 2. The possessed and eventually regrettably killed victim. 3. The rescued victim. 4. the other hunter.

Actually, there are a couple other categories: supernatural creatures/monsters, and non-hunter allies (like the law enforcement officer who let the boys go when Hendrickson caught them).

But yes, true; I've thought about this too, since the show is a horror show at heart, and nearly everyone we see is going to be either a victim or a monster. Which is why I'm generally not too bothered by the show's treatment of women, though I realize it's an issue for other people; it kinda goes with the territory in a show like that, and they're not half bad about offsetting the female victims with male victims and women who are cops, etc. I'm okay with things being a bit problematic with some characters if they're offset by other characters who aren't -- it makes it more evident that the problems are inherent in the specific situation, not in the way the 'verse is constructed.

The idea of Bobby being Jewish is really cool! And there's no reason thus far why he couldn't be; sure, he uses crosses as wards, but since in the SPN-verse they do actually work on actual, physical demons, he'd be practical enough to go ahead and do it. It would be playing a character against type in a way that the SPN-verse doesn't really do, but from a fan perspective, I'm very intrigued by that, as well as the sort of crises of faith that he might run into while being a demon hunter. (No! Do not need more stories to work on now! Help!)

On the one hand, I think it's rather nice that the show doesn't consider Christian theology untouchable while mining other religions for ideas ... the way the Stargateverse seems to. (I suspect that pigs will fly before SGA has the episode in which Jesus turns out to be a descended Ancient....) That SPN doesn't consider it sacrosanct for storytelling purposes is kind of nice. On the other hand, it does set up a universe in which Christian theology, at least some of it, is literally and obviously true, and I hadn't thought until right now that this raises all kinds of interesting issues for the people who "live" within the SPN world.
ext_1981: (Tea)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:35 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, it's certainly not just SPN. And it's not that I don't see it elsewhere; it's just that sometimes I can cheerfully ignore it, and sometimes I feel like it's jumping up and slapping me in the face, and SPN has been giving me that feeling lately.

Doctor Who is really a whole other pile of meta, because while I can see what the reasoning is, and I can see why people had the problems that they did with the show, it's hard for me to vex about it when the show created such wonderful, fascinating characters in Martha and Mickey, and then really dealt with them and had them grow and change and mature. As genre TV goes, Doctor Who actually has a much defter hand with race and gender than most other shows ... in my humble opinion.
ext_1981: (Catch-22)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:44 am (UTC)(link)
Henriksen makes an excellent authority figure type villain for the boys, but when he appears alongside Gordon and Jake the resulting image is...unfortunate.

Yeah, the problem that I have isn't so much any individual character or storyline, it's the cumulative effect of a lot of them. Inevitably, most of the people they meet are going to fall into either the "villain" or "victim" camps; it's just the nature of the show, and I'm fine with that! I think what I'm craving right now is balance -- some indication from the casting department that they can do more with characters of color than cast them as psychos or kill them. Why couldn't Dean's old fling and her son in the episode with the creepy kids have been black or Asian or Hispanic, for example? There are so few non-white characters on the show at all that it really stands out when the few we have are antagonists. This doesn't make them bad characters; Gordon was really fascinating, despite how he ended up, and I think Hendriksen could really benefit from being fleshed out a little more -- the Tommy Lee Jones to their Harrison Ford. *g* Characters don't necessarily have to be recurring allies to be interesting and well-developed characters; they just need to be given good scripts to work with.
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:44 am (UTC)(link)
The gender thing doesn't bother me too much on SPN but some episodes (like "Fresh Blood") it really hits me. I think what bothers me most (and Hollywood is guilty of this and SPN is on the WB which is going to be extra guilty of this) is just how much all the women...are the same. Tall, skinny, long hair - generally the stereotypically "ideal" female with very little acknowledgment that in the real world women don't all look like that. Add in the sometimes eroticized violence and sometimes it becomes too much for me.

(and I realize this is a complaint for Hollywood in general - one of the many things I loved about the tv show "Boomtown" was that the revolving background extras all looked like the mix of people you'd see walking down the street (and still all the male characters had wives/girlfriends who were on the "perfect Holllywood ideal" end of the scale)

Um. I just ranted a lot.

But, yeah, it doesn't bother me in SPN every week, but I think this week was too much. And, yeah, it would be nice if the shows could calm down about this.
ext_1981: (Doppelganger dead)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:45 am (UTC)(link)
it could be read as part of how Sam and Dean cope with seeing things that should be sending to see a psychiatrist.

It certainly does work on a psychological level, and I know they've been pushing a "dark Sam" lately. It's just weirding me out a little ...

[identity profile] roga.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:47 am (UTC)(link)
I just thought about it from a personal perspective; forget as a Jew, but as an atheist. If I lived in the SPN verse, I would definitely take the fact that water blessed by a Christian priest works to defeat monsters as living proof that there is truth to Christian theology, that Jesus was some sort of... I don't know, but something, that there is a god (though perhaps not just One God, but rather a god among others). And it would kind of suck.

I was actually going to write a fic like that, about the fictional sister of Walter Rosen (Envy) becoming a hunter, but "do not need more stories to work on!" pretty much sums it up :-)
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:48 am (UTC)(link)
I suspect that pigs will fly before SGA has the episode in which Jesus turns out to be a descended Ancient....

I would *love* to see those pigs fly. SG-1 did do that early "Demons" episode where they visited a planet with a vaguely "Medieval Christian" society that wanted to drill holes in people's skulls and the drowned Teal'c to prove he was a witch or...something.

I know Stargate would never do it, but I really wish they had dared explore, if not making "Jesus" an Ancient, at least exploring how life at SGC affects a person's faith. But aside from Teal'c and Apophis and Cam's comments about his gramma, we don't really ever know about character's religions - whether they have them or had them and how it affects your personal theology to go out every day and battle false gods. Especially when you get the Ori storyline and have them having to argue what defines a god. *sigh* Darn unrealized potential.
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 01:54 am (UTC)(link)
(Thinking about this actually led me to thinking that in the SPN verse, anyone who discovers the world of demons will have a hell of a time keeping their faith if they aren't Christian, given that crosses and holy water and Cristo all actually work, and I'm fine with that.)

Oh, interesting. I don't know why I've never thought about this with SPN (or even Buffy). (and, okay, I'm having trouble remembering seeing any Jewish characters - but SPN canon seems to leak from my brain a lot).

I wonder if other religious protective charms also work in the SPN universe. I suppose a non-Christian hunter could perhaps argue that those symbols (holy water, crosses, etc) were able to repel demons long before Christ and were incorporated as holy symbols into the Christian faith because of their demon repelling power (since Christianity did tend to absorb a lot of the religions/cultures around it as it was growing and developing).
ext_1981: (Doppelganger dead)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 02:01 am (UTC)(link)
Which leaves, bad guys, demons and psychos. I don't think the writers /producers purposely sough out non-whits to put in the role as bad guys...I just think its an IS.

I don't think they're doing it on purpose, either; it's just that it begins to stand out, after a while, that the handful of non-white characters they've had lately are either psychos or get gruesomely killed on-camera, or both. It's not that I want them to stop casting non-white actors; it's just that I want some balance. There's no reason that Dean's old fling and her son in "The Kids are Alright" couldn't have been cast with non-white actors, for example.

One of the things that bugs me about SPN is that they generally don't "play against type" with their characters; in other words, the way they cast them generally fits the stereotypes of whatever role they're in. I realize that this is an across-the-board Hollywood thing (and SGA is often guilty too), but it doesn't stop it from bothering me. Most of the time, I'm fine with it, and then every once in a while I feel like it rears up and smacks me in the face. And they used to be better about it than they've been lately. The Roadhouse crew, especially Ash -- I loved them; they were absolutely the epitome of everything I love about this show when it's hitting the mark, and part of what was so nifty about them is that they weren't what you usually see in Hollywood. Neither is Bobby, and it really makes those characters stand out -- and annoys me that the casting lately has been such typecasting, because they can do better, when they try.

and the few extra roles they went against the grain and cast females. Ruby the demon, and the annoying thief

See, I really don't agree that Ruby and Bella are cast against the grain, at all. Both of them seem to be very standard "stock" characters to me -- Bella the suave and lovely femme-fatale jewel thief, and Ruby the martial arts chick in tight leather. (Ruby, incidentally, is a character that I immediately fell into "like" for as soon as she turned out to be a demon. In fact, I kinda missed her in this episode. Bella, on the other hand ... I think this post elsewhere (http://merryish.livejournal.com/225133.html) sums up most of the problems that I have with her.)
ext_1981: (Doppelganger dead)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 02:05 am (UTC)(link)
I'll have to nose about, although I'm not really sure how much I want to; it's nice to know I'm not the only one noticing these things (though I figured probably not, because I'm pretty obtuse and if I see it, then I imagine I'm far from the only one).

[identity profile] roga.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 02:08 am (UTC)(link)
Since the rules aren't written in stone, I think in fic you could explore any possibility and make it work - but also that if you wanted to stay true to the show, you'd be stretching it. I know that the Star of David symbol has been used in some devil trap symbols, but I know that symbol predates Judaism, so it doesn't count; and the main proof of Christianity I can find, even if you discard crosses, is that holy water is essentially water blessed by a Christian clergyman. As far as we know.

Of course, even with that, I think it'd be fascinating more Supernatural-verse theology. For example, let's say you assume Christianity is "correct": are all branches of Christianity so? From Catholics to Latter Day Saints, you've got a lot of in betweens. How important are the symbols themselves versus your belief in them? And yeah, how would demon repelling work for people of other religions/other regions of the world? I doubt the show will ever get a chance to cover any of this. Also, as shows drag on, they have a tendency to lose more and more of their inner logic, so even if you build theories that make sense today, they'll probably be broken by the end of season 4...
ext_1981: (Whaleverse-Rodney working)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 02:14 am (UTC)(link)
I'm so with you on the "supermodel" look for women in TV! Honestly, I find a more varied cast a lot more interesting to look at than a cast composed entirely of Hollywood-beautiful people. Supernatural is unusually bad about it, although you're right, it's WB, and that thought hadn't really occurred to me; I'd just noticed that practically all of the female guest stars are completely interchangeable with each other.

I've noticed that I'm predisposed to like a character if they're not Hollywood-beautiful, but they have to win me over if they look just like everyone else. (In fact, one of the things that's made me want to start watching NCIS is the sort of Goth-looking girl with the ponytails on the clips of the show that I've seen. She's interesting to look at, and it draws me to the show.)
ext_1981: (Catch-22)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-11-18 02:15 am (UTC)(link)
Well, it's not even the characters that I have a problem with so much as the mindset of the show in general.

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